Upgrade to Campy 11s or 12s?

[climbgdh]

3 of my bikes are outfitted with Campy 10s but I’m looking to “upgrade” to 11s or 12s on at least one of my rigs through the next couple of months. There are no issues with my 10s gear...... just looking for some newer shifty bits and selling my 10s gear here on PL. A few questions:

- i know 11s cassettes work with no issue on any of my 10s FHB’s but is the same also true for 12s?
- most of my stuff right now is either Record or Chorus and I’d probably be sticking with the same on this upgrade. 12s so far has only been available as Record or SR but looking on the Campy website it looks like Chorus is also available as 12s now..... maybe that’s new recently?
- any experience on 12s versus 11s on functionality and longevity? I don’t swap components or upgrade a whole bunch so looking for something with a LONG life. the 10s stuff has been flawless in that department.

Any comments appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Nomadmax]

Put me down as interested as well, I'm in the same boat as you OP. The thing that has turned my head is the Chorus 12 speed with a 32/48 crank. I use 34/48s on all my 10 speed Campy equipped bikes now and I have two frames that need components.

[Lanternrouge]

About a week ago I heard Campy NA was about to get more Chorus 12 in stock. I'd go with Chorus 12 since it's a better value relative to the other groups and you might as well go with the latest thing even though Campy supports older stuff for a long time. I understand the 12 speed cassettes work on existing hubs. By the time you need a new cassette, Potenza will probably be 12 speed if you want to save money and don't mind a few extra grams. I don't believe you can do 53-39 rings with Chorus if that matters to you, but a 52-11 is only too small a top gear if you're getting paid to ride or close to that level. The ergonomics of the newer levers is really nice.

[Dave]

You can't get a 53/39 Chorus 12 crank, but there shouldn't be a problem with a record 12 crank and probably no problem with an 11 speed crank. Chorus offers 53/36, 50/34 and 48/32 cranks.

The chorus 12 shifting shifting is excellent. If you don't want to spend a lot for the campy chain tool, a cheap park tool will work to shorten the chain. A kmc 12 or sram eagle quick link will join a Campy chain. I find that the sram axs 12 chain also works and is quieter.

I have the 48/32 with 11-34 cassette.

[zmalwo]

3 of my bikes are outfitted with Campy 10s but I’m looking to “upgrade” to 11s or 12s on at least one of my rigs through the next couple of months. There are no issues with my 10s gear...... just looking for some newer shifty bits and selling my 10s gear here on PL. A few questions:

- i know 11s cassettes work with no issue on any of my 10s FHB’s but is the same also true for 12s?
- most of my stuff right now is either Record or Chorus and I’d probably be sticking with the same on this upgrade. 12s so far has only been available as Record or SR but looking on the Campy website it looks like Chorus is also available as 12s now..... maybe that’s new recently?
- any experience on 12s versus 11s on functionality and longevity? I don’t swap components or upgrade a whole bunch so looking for something with a LONG life. the 10s stuff has been flawless in that department.

Any comments appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Record 12s on Merlin cost $1200, Chorus 11S cost $960 and Chorus 12s from the cheapest place I can find cost about $1100. If I buy new I would go with 12s record. 12s RD let you choose 11 29 or 11 32 which are the two option you will ever need. Go with Record 12s. https://www.merlincycles.com/campagnolo-record-12-speed-groupset-120859.html

[denapista]

I'd imagine upgrading from 10s to 12s would be a huge significant jump in performance.. I went from 1st/2nd gen 11s to the 3rd gen 11s and the performance of shifting was night and day. Campy still has that snappy shifting characteristic but the front shifting is Shimano like now. The rear shifts are butter smooth too!

[oldpotatoe]

3 of my bikes are outfitted with Campy 10s but I’m looking to “upgrade” to 11s or 12s on at least one of my rigs through the next couple of months. There are no issues with my 10s gear...... just looking for some newer shifty bits and selling my 10s gear here on PL. A few questions:

- i know 11s cassettes work with no issue on any of my 10s FHB’s but is the same also true for 12s?
- most of my stuff right now is either Record or Chorus and I’d probably be sticking with the same on this upgrade. 12s so far has only been available as Record or SR but looking on the Campy website it looks like Chorus is also available as 12s now..... maybe that’s new recently?
- any experience on 12s versus 11s on functionality and longevity? I don’t swap components or upgrade a whole bunch so looking for something with a LONG life. the 10s stuff has been flawless in that department.

Any comments appreciated. Thanks in advance.

-yes
-yes plus sub compact crank
-11s levers AND 12s very different innards than 10s. No shift springs or spring carrier to break. 12s is very new but should be on par with 11s, which has been out for a decade(2009 intro)...functionality? Flawless...Campagnolo makes small changes all the time they don’t yell about...11s and 12s works and lasts exceptionally well.
Like 9s and 10s and 11s and 12s, Campagnolo did it first, the others follow( except road Shimano, stuck in 11s and sram, ZERO mechanical 12s groups....oh well.

[Dave]

Record 12s on Merlin cost $1200, Chorus 11S cost $960 and Chorus 12s from the cheapest place I can find cost about $1100. If I buy new I would go with 12s record. 12s RD let you choose 11 29 or 11 32 which are the two option you will ever need. Go with Record 12s. https://www.merlincycles.com/campagnolo-record-12-speed-groupset-120859.html

Your link to merlin cycles shows $1419 for Record and they don't show any Chorus 12, in my search. I found Chorus 12 for $1060 at pinkjersey.com.

My reason for buying Chorus 12 was the 48/32 crank and 11-34 cassette. Neither is available with Record.

What you might need depends on where you ride and how old you are.

[Hilltopperny]

I have Record 12 on my Ottrott and it is very nice, but can't speak to its longevity yet. The shifting is precise and smooth. All of the Campagnolo stuff I have had in the past has worked forever so I do not forsee a problem with the new stuff.

I also have the newest version of Chorus 11 on my Merckx and it is very nice as well. I think it is one of the nicest groupsets I have ever used and it functions excellent as well. If I didnt have the 12spd record it would be a hard group to beat. No experience with the new 12 spd chorus, but the levers are now alloy instead of carbon if that matters and it is a bit heavier.

Sent from my LGL423DL using Tapatalk

[makoti]

Can you shift through several cogs at once on 12 like you can on 11? I don't think you can on the Potenza stuff, 11 or 12. The upper lines?

[Hilltopperny]

Can you shift through several cogs at once on 12 like you can on 11? I don't think you can on the Potenza stuff, 11 or 12. The upper lines?Yes, chorus 11 and up still shift through several cogs at a time. Not sure about chorus 12, but Record and Super Record can as well.

Sent from my LGL423DL using Tapatalk

[zmalwo]

Your link to merlin cycles shows $1419 for Record and they don't show any Chorus 12, in my search. I found Chorus 12 for $1060 at pinkjersey.com.

My reason for buying Chorus 12 was the 48/32 crank and 11-34 cassette. Neither is available with Record.

What you might need depends on where you ride and how old you are.

it didn't show you the 10% off on the top? it does on mine

[jtbadge]

i know 11s cassettes work with no issue on any of my 10s FHB’s but is the same also true for 12s?



If your hubs are Chris King, they won't take 12s.

[zero85ZEN]

I went from 10 to 3rd gen 11 speed Chorus mechanical on a couple bikes and Record EPS 11 on one. MAJOR upgrade from 10 speed. Better gearing range and ergonomics of levers/hoods much better. Then I upgraded one of my bikes to Super Record 12 last summer. 12 speed is DEFINITELY the way to go. The ergonomics of the levers/hoods has been even further refined and the expanded cassette range is phenomenal. I'm running a standard crankset with an 11-32 cassette and it's the best gearing setup I've ever had. I can do it all, climb steeps and crank up the speed on the flats or descents sur la plaque!

[robertbb]

Don't the Campy 12 cassettes lack the (for most people) all-important 16t cog?

Personally, I find it far more useful than the 11t on offer on the 12s cassette options.

For me, 11s Chorus (latest gen) is the pinnacle. Not sure how the hoods or ergonomics could get any better. Crisp multi-shifting at the rear, smooth shimano-like front shifting (even on a 50-34, which is meant to be the "worst" for front shifting).

I've got it on two bikes and I've got a further two mini-groups (derailleurs and shifters) stashed in box.

Chorus 11 has more in common quality and materials-wise with Super Record than Chorus 12 does.

Been stashing away Record 11s chains and Chorus 12-29 cassettes. Reckon I'll be on Chorus 11 for the next decade, with zero desire for anything else.

[climbgdh]

Thanks for the info folks. Think I’ll be going with 12s. COOL!!

[woodworker]

Can you shift through several cogs at once on 12 like you can on 11? I don't think you can on the Potenza stuff, 11 or 12. The upper lines?

I have Campy 12 Chorus. It shifts through multiple cogs at once. Really nice groupset at a great price.

[oldpotatoe]

Yes, chorus 11 and up still shift through several cogs at a time. Not sure about chorus 12, but Record and Super Record can as well.

Sent from my LGL423DL using Tapatalk

SR/Record and Chorus 12s is the same as 11s..Ultrashift-multiple higher gears with one thumb button push..

[thwart]

SR/Record and Chorus 12s is the same as 11s..Ultrashift-multiple higher gears with one thumb button push..

And 9 and 10 speed does as well. IIRC 8 spd too.

FWIW 9 speed Mirage dumps gears very nicely.

All this stuff about how much better performing 12 speed will be over 10 speed... :rolleyes:

[mcteague]

it didn't show you the 10% off on the top? it does on mine

I bought the 12s Record set from Merlin a couple months ago and got the 10% discount. It came in about a week and it all works fine. I have noticed that Record only is supposed to work with a max 32 tooth rear cog and Chorus 12s offer a 34. Wonder if the Record RD has a slightly shorter cage?

Tim

[oldpotatoe]

I bought the 12s Record set from Merlin a couple months ago and got the 10% discount. It came in about a week and it all works fine. I have noticed that Record only is supposed to work with a max 32 tooth rear cog and Chorus 12s offer a 34. Wonder if the Record RD has a slightly shorter cage?

Tim

It does..the Chorus cage is described as 'medium'...BUT I'm thinking that since Campag specs are conservative, I'll bet SR/Record 12s rear der can handle a 34t..

[Dave]

The chorus cage measures 73mm center to center between the pulleys.

[R3awak3n]

I have 11 on all my bikes and its great but if I was to buy something campy right now, and was new I would probably do 12.

My only issue is that I love using shimano cassettes and I would not be able to do that but so is life.

[PQJ]

All this stuff about how much better performing 12 speed will be over 10 speed... :rolleyes:

I recently acquired a new frame and equipped it with 12 speed; my other frame has 10 speed. Noticeable differences 12 v 10 are:
- much less effort to shift gears with 12, especially in the front
- ergonomics of 12 are a VAST improvement over 10; I almost have the sensation that the 10 shifters "stick out"
- wider gear range is a huge plus.

I love the 10 speed and the bike it is on, but, for my money, 12 is a huge upgrade. When funds allow, my 10 speed (gruppo) will be retired.

[climbgdh]

Good to hear all the positive comments on 12s. I have no issue with how my 10s performs but am also looking forward to upgrade at least one bike to what appears will be 12s when i pull the trigger. Probably the new stuff will go on my Peg Duende...... :)

[jpritchet74]

I love my 10s Record! To me it's the best lever shape - I would love to have 11 or 12 cogs, but the lever shape just doesn't do it for me.

[oldpotatoe]

And 9 and 10 speed does as well. IIRC 8 spd too.

FWIW 9 speed Mirage dumps gears very nicely.

All this stuff about how much better performing 12 speed will be over 10 speed... :rolleyes:

Sorry to pick this nit.

2007/8 Centaur and below, altho 10s, did not. 9 and 10s Xenon did not. 2011+ 10s(Centaur, Veloce) did not....

:)

[Mark McM]

I love my 10s Record! To me it's the best lever shape - I would love to have 11 or 12 cogs, but the lever shape just doesn't do it for me.

I've got 10spd Campagnolo on several bikes, and 11spd Campagnolo on one bike. Maybe my feelings are based on what I've become used to, but I actually prefer the operation and feel of the 10spd shifters. To be sure, the 11spd performs quite well, it just does it a little differently. To wit:

The 11spd shape has a larger, taller "dome" on the front, with a more gradual ramp between the body and the dome. This decreases the effective reach of the levers, and also means that when I drape the palms of my hands over the domes (dangling my fingers off the front of the levers), it forces me to cock my wrists at a more uncomfortable angle.

Rear shifting is less "snappy" with 11spd levers. On the 10spd levers, you only needed to push the lever a little over half-way to the next index point, and the mechanism "snaps" the index disk the rest of the way. This allows shifts to be done with less lever travel. With the 11spd levers, you have to move the lever all the way to the next index position before it clicks into place. The 10spd levers thus perform faster shifts. (Note: I understand why Campagnolo made this change - the "snappier" 10spd design wears out faster, whereas the slower 11spd design is more durable.)

Shifting to the small chainring can require two lever pushes with the 11spd levers - the first push drops to the derailleur to the "trim" position, and a 2nd push is required to drop the drailleur all the way to the inside position. With 10spd levers, a longer push may be needed to swing the derailleur, but shifting to either chainring can be done with a single push.

Were there an 11spd indexing disk could be retro-fitted to 10spd levers, I would use it.

[thwart]

I love my 10s Record! To me it's the best lever shape - I would love to have 11 or 12 cogs, but the lever shape just doesn't do it for me.

Agree with the sentiment that it'd be a good thing to have a 48/32 crank, and let's say a 13-30 cassette... with the 10 spd Record lever shape and their nice, firm feeling shift as well.

Sorry to pick this nit.

2007/8 Centaur and below, altho 10s, did not. 9 and 10s Xenon did not. 2011+ 10s(Centaur, Veloce) did not....

:)

And... sorry, OP, I was referring to your prior post about Record and Chorus. Nit picking will get you nowhere. ;)

Although your post reminds me that Campy's 'golden age' may have ended, IMO, around 2008... Luddite that I am.

[El Chaba]

Although your post reminds me that Campy's 'golden age' may have ended, IMO, around 2008... Luddite that I am.

I don't know about the end of the golden age, but I am in full agreement on the approximate time of the high water mark.

[Dave]

Campy made two styles of 10 speed shifters, with the newer being ultrashift. The ultrashift can be converted to 11 speed. FWIW, I recently sold my early model ultrashift levers that were converted to 11 speed and a set of 2018 11 speed shifters. I like the new 12 speed better than either one.

The 12 speed shifters have the small hands feature that I need. I used to modify my old shifters to produce the same effect. Now I don't have to.

[uber]

I have Record and SR 11 on my road bikes. I don’t think they are as smooth as Record 10. My friends swear that 12 is a big big improvement over 11. To be honest, I’m fine with 11 too. They are all great.

[oldpotatoe]

Shifting to the small chainring can require two lever pushes with the 11spd levers - the first push drops to the derailleur to the "trim" position, and a 2nd push is required to drop the drailleur all the way to the inside position.

That's only 2015 and newer...

[bfd]

I have Record and SR 11 on my road bikes. I don’t think they are as smooth as Record 10. My friends swear that 12 is a big big improvement over 11. To be honest, I’m fine with 11 too. They are all great.

Agree, one thing about 11 speed is its compatible across all manufacturers! On my Madone, I'm running Sram etap 11 drivetrain with Campy Proton wheels/Chorus 12-29 11 speed cassette and it shifts flawless.

So the question that nobody seems to be able to answer is whether 12 speed has this same compatibility? Since Shimano doesn't have 12 speed for road yet, is Campy 12 compatible with Sram axs etap 12? It appears the Sram axs chain works on Campy 12 drivetrain. Can one use Sram axs drivetrain with Campy 12 cassette/wheel?

I know, Good Luck!

[Dave]

There is some info on the weight weenies forum. One poster measured the c-c spacing on the campy sprockets and came up with the same 3.48 mm that I did. He also has a sram axs cassette and posted that the overall length on the two cassettes was closer than camp/shimano 11 speed. If that's the case, then the two should be compatible. That poster never did get back to the thread with a spacing for the sram sprockets. I measure the thickness of a sprocket and the use feeler gauges to get the space between the sprockets. Add the two to get the spacing.

Another positive is that most campy/fulcrum wheels can be fitted with the xdr driver needed to use a sram axs cassette. It's a fulcrum part number.

[ravdg316]

There is some info on the weight weenies forum. One poster measured the c-c spacing on the campy sprockets and came up with the same 3.48 mm that I did. He also has a sram axs cassette and posted that the overall length on the two cassettes was closer than camp/shimano 11 speed. If that's the case, then the two should be compatible. That poster never did get back to the thread with a spacing for the sram sprockets. I measure the thickness of a sprocket and the use feeler gauges to get the space between the sprockets. Add the two to get the spacing.

Another positive is that most campy/fulcrum wheels can be fitted with the xdr driver needed to use a sram axs cassette. It's a fulcrum part number.

So rather than getting a driver for a shimano wheel, this means that a campy 9-12 speed wheelset with a 12-speed campy cassette could be viable for 12 speed eTap?

[Dave]

So rather than getting a driver for a shimano wheel, this means that a campy 9-12 speed wheelset with a 12-speed campy cassette could be viable for 12 speed eTap?

The poster came up with the sram cassette being .021 inch or .5 mm longer overall. That's a switch, since campy spacing is usually a little larger.

That means that e-tap will travel a little more than needed.

[choke]

I've got 10spd Campagnolo on several bikes, and 11spd Campagnolo on one bike. Maybe my feelings are based on what I've become used to, but I actually prefer the operation and feel of the 10spd shifters. I'm with you 100%....I'll take the 10sp over the 11sp any day. I've never tried 12sp and probably never will.

[livingminimal]

Hold up. You cant use CK hubs with 12speed Campag without a workaround that mixes groupsets?!?!??!

[Dave]

Hold up. You cant use CK hubs with 12speed Campag without a workaround that mixes groupsets?!?!??!

I don't see where they make any campy compatible hub. Seems like narrow minded design.

If they have no campy compatible hub, then using campy 11 is also a work around.

[jtbadge]

Hold up. You cant use CK hubs with 12speed Campag without a workaround that mixes groupsets?!?!??!

Their hubs have a proprietary lockring and they are not releasing a 12s version.

[oldpotatoe]

There is some info on the weight weenies forum. One poster measured the c-c spacing on the campy sprockets and came up with the same 3.48 mm that I did. He also has a sram axs cassette and posted that the overall length on the two cassettes was closer than camp/shimano 11 speed. If that's the case, then the two should be compatible. That poster never did get back to the thread with a spacing for the sram sprockets. I measure the thickness of a sprocket and the use feeler gauges to get the space between the sprockets. Add the two to get the spacing.

Another positive is that most campy/fulcrum wheels can be fitted with the xdr driver needed to use a sram axs cassette. It's a fulcrum part number.

Yup although unless ya want the sram ratio, Chorus 12s cogset is cheaper.

[zmalwo]

Campy made two styles of 10 speed shifters, with the newer being ultrashift. The ultrashift can be converted to 11 speed. FWIW, I recently sold my early model ultrashift levers that were converted to 11 speed and a set of 2018 11 speed shifters. I like the new 12 speed better than either one.

The 12 speed shifters have the small hands feature that I need. I used to modify my old shifters to produce the same effect. Now I don't have to.

I believe the levers are closer to the bars at any given hood angle right?

[thirdgenbird]

I am getting very tempted to sell a few of my mint record 10 groups in an effort to fund Chorus 12....

[parallelfish]

Hold up. You cant use CK hubs with 12speed Campag without a workaround that mixes groupsets?!?!??!

It is a flange spacing issue. The cassette fitment on the drive shell is fine. The CK hub has a wider flange spacing with the drive side flange further right than a Campy hub. The 12 speed cassette has a series of “ears” protruding out the backside. It has been suggested this is over-shift protection.

With the wider flange spacing, these ears do not clear the drive side spokes on my Enve 3.4 with CK hub.

My intent is to grind the ears down a bit to create clearance.

[Dave]

I believe the levers are closer to the bars at any given hood angle right?

The small hands feature stops the lever from fully releasing, so it's closer to the bars.

[Dave]

More info has been posted on the weight weenies website about sram and campy 12 compatibility. A bike with Campy eps 12 was tested with a sram 12 cassette and campy chain and it worked well, including the shift to the 10 tooth sprocket.

[C40_guy]

Very helpful thread...just decided to go Record 12 on my Seven Axiom build, rather than stay with my vintage Record 10 Compact goodies... :)

[Dave]

That was some time ago. In 2020 I switched to SRAM Force AXS on my Colnago rim brake bikes, them on to disc frames, later that year. No regrets on the switch to wireless electronic shifting.

[C40_guy]

That was some time ago. In 2020 I switched to SRAM Force AXS on my Colnago rim brake bikes, them on to disc frames, layer that year. No regrets on the switch to wireless electronic shifting.

I know. I'm living in the past. :)

[Bandrewhill]

Can only say I LOVE Camp Chorus 12....Feels crisp and seems maintenence free....rarely do I ever have to adjust anything.....Had it put on a year and a half ago and never even experienced any cable stretch. Running a 52/36 I think? But all that is personal preference.

[lunardds]

If your hubs are Chris King, they won't take 12s.

They sell the 12 speed freehub now.

Also, you can get an extra 15% off right now that puts chorus around $1k here (https://www.eurobikeparts.com/proddetail.php?prod=CA-CH8PC12s)

[robt57]

Just curious what the duty situation and costs from Merlin the US might be.

I have pre 2015 Chorus and SR/Ti-Cult. I can't imagine SR12 shifting better, or anything cabled for that matter.

[mcteague]

Just curious what the duty situation and costs from Merlin the US might be.

I have pre 2015 Chorus and SR/Ti-Cult. I can't imagine SR12 shifting better, or anything cabled for that matter.

When I ordered my Record 12s mech group from Merlin back in 2019 it came directly to my house with no duty costs involved. From what I have read this is normally what happens. Maybe larger things like frames and wheels incur the extra cost.

Tim

[C40_guy]

I have a couple of sets of older Campy Eurus and Mavic Ksyrium SSC wheelsets that currently have 10 speed cassettes. Any issue in running Campy 12 speed cassettes on these older wheels?

[oldpotatoe]

3 of my bikes are outfitted with Campy 10s but I’m looking to “upgrade” to 11s or 12s on at least one of my rigs through the next couple of months. There are no issues with my 10s gear...... just looking for some newer shifty bits and selling my 10s gear here on PL. A few questions:

- i know 11s cassettes work with no issue on any of my 10s FHB’s but is the same also true for 12s?
- most of my stuff right now is either Record or Chorus and I’d probably be sticking with the same on this upgrade. 12s so far has only been available as Record or SR but looking on the Campy website it looks like Chorus is also available as 12s now..... maybe that’s new recently?
- any experience on 12s versus 11s on functionality and longevity? I don’t swap components or upgrade a whole bunch so looking for something with a LONG life. the 10s stuff has been flawless in that department.

Any comments appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Haven't read the whole thread...apologies if dups.
-If the free hub body is 11s compatible, it's 12s compatible

-12s is SuperRecord/Record and Chorus..all introduced at the same time.

-Shift innards essentially the same as 11s..just new spool, shift disc...Function is identical to 11s, with another gear. NO shift springs to wear or break in 11s or 12s...that was often an issue with 10s..BUT, the 'future' for Campag is 12s..get 12s stuff.

[Hilltopperny]

I have a couple of sets of older Campy Eurus and Mavic Ksyrium SSC wheelsets that currently have 10 speed cassettes. Any issue in running Campy 12 speed cassettes on these older wheels?

I have not had an issue running 12spd on 9,10,11spd freehubs, but I am not sure if all of them are compatible?

[C40_guy]

12S front derailleur available in braze on only? (Buy appropriate clamp separately...)

[jamesdak]

I have a couple of sets of older Campy Eurus and Mavic Ksyrium SSC wheelsets that currently have 10 speed cassettes. Any issue in running Campy 12 speed cassettes on these older wheels?

For sure the Eurus are worthless now and you might as well chuck 'em. I'll give ya $10 a set. ;);)

[C40_guy]

For sure the Eurus are worthless now and you might as well chuck 'em. I'll give ya $10 a set. ;);)

Probably not worth $10. I would be embarrassed to take more than $8 per set, and that includes wheelbags.

:)

[dana_e]

So how long do the 10 speed shift springs or spring carrier last?

Does the new spring carrier help a lot?