To sprint or not to sprint

[Red Tornado]

Question for the forum regarding something that occurred on yesterday's club ride.

The "B" group had 16 riders. Three of them did the majority of the pulling, I'd say 75% of the route distance. These guys like to pull (fair enough) but are also the strongest, and occasionally set a pace just high enough to scare the majority of the other riders off the front. Yours truly did take a couple pulls and felt like I was going at about 90% of my max while pulling, so only stayed on the front for a couple minutes and then swung off. Several others who did a little pulling felt about the same. Generally, the other riders have no issues staying on when in the draft, but can't reasonably sustain the pace of the few stronger guys when at the front.

So we get to the end where there usually is a sprint involving the "fast" guys and whoever else wants to join in. One of them usually leads it out. Last night we got to the last 250-300 yards of straight (freshly paved) road and not a car in sight - perfect sprinting conditions. The leaders kept it rolling at an even 20 mph and showed no desire to speed up. A couple guys finally couldn't stand it any longer, swung out and sprinted.

The "leaders" were a little offended at the disrespect shown after they had pulled for so long and then were sprinted around. No one butt-hurt, just a little put off IMO. This isn't a club race, just a ride.

I thought about it on my bike ride home struggling to go one way or the other on the issue.

1. I can see wanting to sprint regardless of who pulled for how long just because it's fun and if you have enough left in the tank, why not? We're out here for enjoyment and if you want to give it a go, no problem.

2. OTOH if you're working your tail off for the majority of the ride and then the "wheel suckers" come around you at the end, benefitting from all your hard work, isn't that a little "classless" (think Simon Gerrans MSR win IIRC).

Now here's the rub for me. The pace makers were setting a speed just high enough to keep anyone else from spending a lot of time at the front. If you're doing that, and then too tired to sprint at the end, isn't that your own fault? Could dial it down 1-2 mph where more people can rotate through and then everyone has something left at the end.

Which side of the fence are you on?

[EDS]

If it is a known sprint point then fair game for anyone to sprint. The guys who have been pulling should not be upset since they already know they are the strongest in the group and should be okay letting others have some fun. If someone who is not pulling takes a random flier of the the front that would be different (unless that is an accepted part of the group dynamic).

[ergott]

If it's a ride that has a mutually agreed up sprint point then it doesn't matter who's doing what before that. Pulling the group for the majority of the ride doesn't give you any privilege at the line. When I tow a group I know full well what that means for the sprint. If I want to vie for the line I'll ride differently leading up to it.

[FlashUNC]

I'm guessing the pullers aren't familiar with Hennie Kuiper.

If the sprint to the town signs means that much to them, then ride smarter.

[msl819]

If it is just a ride no one should be butt hurt or put off regardless. At the end of the ride the biggest thing is that all had fun and got home safe. I am with these guys... if it is a know sprint no one should be surprised or frustrated that people sprinted, even if they didn't pull their weight. I find that most people have more for the guys who kept their noses in the wind not the guys who sprint around at the end - especially if the workhorses rode "friendly" enough to keep the group together.

[echappist]

+1 to each of the points above

If it's a ride that has a mutually agreed up sprint point then it doesn't matter who's doing what before that. Pulling the group for the majority of the ride doesn't give you any privilege at the line. When I tow a group I know full well what that means for the sprint. If I want to vie for the line I'll ride differently leading up to it.

exactly this

it seems that it's most often the B group where people take umbrage over the slightests of slights

those pulling could have attacked to get rid of the "wheelsuckers"

and besides, it's a damn group ride, not a real race. Such fragile egos...


2. OTOH if you're working your tail off for the majority of the ride and then the "wheel suckers" come around you at the end, benefitting from all your hard work, isn't that a little "classless" (think Simon Gerrans MSR win IIRC).


funny, when I think of Gerrans, i don't think "classless". What comes to mind is a tactically shrewd rider who realized every ounce of his physiological potential and capitalized on the lack of racing nous of others. That's a bike racer. If one thinks his actions at MSR is distasteful, might as well stop watching any mass start racing and just spectate ITT and triathlons...

[sparky33]

What is the understood etiquette for the ride?

I'm generally in the camp that if you sit on the front for whatever reason, then you are making that choice and it doesn't somehow entitle you above others for sprinting or whatever. It cuts the other way too, as in being too amazing and strong to rotate off the front and let others have a moment to put their nose in the wind. ...That kind of stuff is a bit irritating too. Disrespect sounds childish to me.

Share and be nice, even when in the group ride.

[beeatnik]

B groups are so weird.

[Red Tornado]

+1 to each of the points above



exactly this

it seems that it's most often the B group where people take umbrage over the slightests of slights

those pulling could have attacked to get rid of the "wheelsuckers"

and besides, it's a damn group ride, not a real race. Such fragile egos...



funny, when I think of Gerrans, i don't think "classless". What comes to mind is a tactically shrewd rider who realized every ounce of his physiological potential and capitalized on the lack of racing nous of others. That's a bike racer. If one thinks his actions at MSR is distasteful, might as well stop watching any mass start racing and just spectate ITT and triathlons...

I could have worded it better. I don't have an issue with Gerrans win, he rode tactically smart, but there were some who did take issue. Their complaints at the time seemed in line with our group ride situation. Just connecting the lines sort of.

[Red Tornado]

The format for the "B" ride is a re-group ride. There is one designated area, a little past the halfway point, where we are supposed to stop and wait for dropped riders. Just prior to this is a sort of sprint zone where the hammer goes down for 1-2 miles. We stay together then until the final sprint. Occasionally some will attack a little early, but anything within a couple miles of the finish line is normally not a problem. The rest of the time it's assumed the group should try to stay together, which it usually does.
There have been times when the bunch has not re-grouped with riders off the back. Not a lot, but it happens. Usually myself or another couple will drop back and find them.
Kind of funny, two of the complainers actually attacked the group maybe 8 miles out from the end and stayed away for 2 or 3 miles, then sat up.
The more I think about it, it's starting to look like these few riders are "blowing up" the B ride. Two of the three are definitely capable of hanging with the A group; maybe not able to sprint or attack successfully, but could stay with their group no problem.
A change to this ride's format this year may have brought this on. I the old days A & B rode the same route with A's rolling out first. Some riders (me included a few years back) would go with A's and hang on as long as we could, then when shelled would ride back to the B's. This year A's doing their own route, it's longer than B route, so maybe have some "A-" riders infiltrating B group.

[weisan]

You can't please everyone.

This reminded me of an email I sent to everyone on my club ride recently, basically saying...

stop complaining about how other people ride their bikes, focus more on yourself, let your legs do the talking.

If you have to whine, stay at home.

This is just a freakin' bike ride.

Relax!

[pasadena]

legs of iron, egos of eggshells

group rides are a chance to play. sprint, pull, suck wheels.... get fit, train... excuse for a croissant... it's all good.

Some people have fun talking smack, so maybe that's their thing because the wife has them on lockdown, or the boss presses his thumb hard.

As long as no one is being dangerous, you do you and enjoy it.

[huck*this]

If the strong guys want to pull and push the pace during the ride and then fall apart and complain when a final sprint takes place, to me, they are the ones in bad form. They choose to pull. They could peel off just like anyone else.

I would give them a "see you next week" or kindly tell them to stop sand bagging and play with the A's. :cool:

I also echo what Al said. B groups are so weird.

[kppolich]

What is the understood etiquette for the ride?

I'm generally in the camp that if you sit on the front for whatever reason, then you are making that choice and it doesn't somehow entitle you above others for sprinting or whatever. It cuts the other way too, as in being too amazing and strong to rotate off the front and let others have a moment to put their nose in the wind. ...That kind of stuff is a bit irritating too. Disrespect sounds childish to me.

Share and be nice, even when in the group ride.

This, talk about it before the ride and get a mutual agreement. Yes we are sprinting at town sign X, Y, and Z. or No, the roads are too busy today lets say no sprinting today.

[mtechnica]

If they want to tire themselves out and not have enough energy to sprint at the end then they aren’t entitled to anything. If everyone else is too slow for them then they should ride with the A group instead of dragging the B group around all day, and if not, they have no reason to be upset. I hate how people get all worked up about group rides, it’s not a race people!

[zmalwo]

It's a casual club ride, not a gathering of 12 yos who gets offended by every little thing. Perhaps the guys pulled just want to be in that "in charge" mentality. Gotta say these guys ruined a fun ride for you guys. Now you have to come back home and think about this whole situation.

[Spaghetti Legs]

If they didn't want to lose to a fresh legged sprinter, then one of them should have taken a flyer with 1K to go.;)

[earlfoss]

Sitting on the whole ride then pulling a sucker-punch move is bush league loser stuff. It's not a race, it's a group ride so take your pulls. Even if it's a token pull, take it. Save the sitting in thing for your cat 4 races.

[GregL]

It's a club ride, not a race. Just ride safely and sit in, attack, or do whatever suits your fancy within the boundaries of safety. I always get a laugh at the guys who treat the mid-week club rides as their race, but never pin on a number on the weekends. Lighten up, racer wannabes!

Greg

[Mark McM]

It's a club ride, not a race. Just ride safely and sit in, attack, or do whatever suits your fancy within the boundaries of safety. I always get a laugh at the guys who treat the mid-week club rides as their race, but never pin on a number on the weekends. Lighten up, racer wannabes!

On one of our club's Saturday morning rides, one of the riders (who had a serious Type-A personality) blasted off the front a mile or two be before the finish, and arrived at the parking lot a few minutes before the rest of the group who were using the last couple of miles to warm down. He lived nearby, so he invited a few of us over to his house for some post-ride refreshments. As he walked in the front door of his house, the first words out of his mouth to his wife were, "I won today's ride!". And he wasn't being ironic, he was dead serious.

Some people always have to be the biggest fish in the pond, no matter how small the pond they need to find to achieve it.

[Jaybee]

Sitting on the whole ride then pulling a sucker-punch move is bush league loser stuff. It's not a race, it's a group ride so take your pulls. Even if it's a token pull, take it. Save the sitting in thing for your cat 4 races.

I would typically agree with this, but it's not clear that the 3 fast guys are letting anyone else rotate through. That's also lame for a B ride.

[Jaybee]

On one of our club's Saturday morning rides, one of the riders (who had a serious Type-A personality) blasted off the front a mile or two be before the finish, and arrived at the parking lot a few minutes before the rest of the group who were using the last couple of miles to warm down. He lived nearby, so he invited a few of us over to his house for some post-ride refreshments. As he walked in the front door of his house, the first words out of his mouth to his wife were, "I won today's ride!". And he wasn't being ironic, he was dead serious.

Some people always have the biggest fish in the pond, no matter how small the pond they need to find to achieve it.

This is why I always ride solo. Haven't "lost" a ride in years! :banana::banana:

[sparky33]

As he walked in the front door of his house, the first words out of his mouth to his wife were, "I won today's ride!". And he wasn't being ironic, he was dead serious.

I won dessert the other day. I am not kidding.

I chose a pumpkin spice whoopie pie that was clearly better than the other terrible whoopie pie flavors that my wife and daughters chose. It was amazing. I chomped that pie in 3 bites. Crushed it. I told them all how much better my dessert was. One of my daughters cried a little. It was awesome.


;)

[spoonrobot]

If there's usually a sprint and the guys at the front showed no intention of sprinting without a pre-ride discussion - that's their own fault. They need to get out of the way or fire down on their own sprint.

Neutralizing the competitive part(s) of a group ride without making it clear prior to the start is how you piss people off.

[simonov]

How much was in the prize purse? Were upgrade points to move to the "A" group on the line?

In all seriousness, sprinting is fun. If it's a known sprint point, everyone should expect a sprint and choose if they want to participate, whether or not they've been doing most of the work at the front. If the 3 stronger guys' feelings were hurt by weaker riders taking advantage of their draft, perhaps it's time for them to join the A ride.

[Matthew]

If it's a known sprint spot then it's fair game to everyone no matter how you get to that point. Those stronger riders that did most of the pulling could have at any time dropped to the back. No one told them to stay up there. If they had nothing left for the sprint then they should take satisfaction in knowing they gave it all on the road! As others stated, it's just a group training ride!!

[BobO]

On one of our club's Saturday morning rides, one of the riders (who had a serious Type-A personality) blasted off the front a mile or two be before the finish, and arrived at the parking lot a few minutes before the rest of the group who were using the last couple of miles to warm down. He lived nearby, so he invited a few of us over to his house for some post-ride refreshments. As he walked in the front door of his house, the first words out of his mouth to his wife were, "I won today's ride!". And he wasn't being ironic, he was dead serious.

I'm not sure I would have been able to control my laughter, in his face,... mockingly. Does he live his life a quarter mile at a time? Maybe neon under the bottom bracket? :p

People can be really entertaining sometimes.

[Red Tornado]

Sitting on the whole ride then pulling a sucker-punch move is bush league loser stuff. It's not a race, it's a group ride so take your pulls. Even if it's a token pull, take it. Save the sitting in thing for your cat 4 races.

The two guys that sprinted did take a couple pulls. Not monster pulls mind you, but a mile or two a couple different times. Those two, plus a couple others, where the only ones who could pull for any length of time at the pace the big three were setting. If the majority of riders in the group tried to pull at that pace they would have been shelled one by one.
No one pulled a sucker punch. A few self-proclaimed B riders who I would classify as "A-" riders in reality had control of the ride, set the pace too high for the majority in that group and in doing so burned themselves up shortly before the finish line, then got ticked off when some of the riders who still had a little gas in the tank decided to sprint it out - as is the custom on this ride provided auto traffic allows.

[Red Tornado]

How much was in the prize purse? Were upgrade points to move to the "A" group on the line?

In all seriousness, sprinting is fun. If it's a known sprint point, everyone should expect a sprint and choose if they want to participate, whether or not they've been doing most of the work at the front. If the 3 stronger guys' feelings were hurt by weaker riders taking advantage of their draft, perhaps it's time for them to join the A ride.

If there's usually a sprint and the guys at the front showed no intention of sprinting without a pre-ride discussion - that's their own fault. They need to get out of the way or fire down on their own sprint.

Neutralizing the competitive part(s) of a group ride without making it clear prior to the start is how you piss people off.

Yes.

[teleguy57]

I'm guessing the pullers aren't familiar with Hennie Kuiper.

Made by day, Flash :beer:

And I bet no one pulling was riding a super-Belgian-kermesse Gaulzetti.

[CDM]

Shouldnt you take this up with the group...ya know like the ones involved? Instead of a group of virtual participants.

[David Tollefson]

This is why I always ride solo. Haven't "lost" a ride in years! :banana::banana:

I ride solo mostly (like 99+% of the time) and routinely get skunked at the line by Me and Myself...

[glepore]

Stuff like this is why I gave up group rides.

When folks started to take chances at intersections to stay on or off the front, rolling thru stop signs that they know the whole pack can't get through and not soft pedaling on the other side-more or less flipping the bird at anyone not willing to play chicken

When folks blast outta the mid ride stop while the rest of us that need a bit of a warm up to get going again never see them again

When someone has to "win" something other than a recognized sprint

Drop rides are one thing. But "group" rides, regardless, that are no drop had a pretty good chance of becoming races. Why drive somewhere to ride to ride alone?

Yeah, group rides have become weird. Too many "riders" too few cyclists.

[Mzilliox]

who gives a ****? nobody wins a thing on rides like these so as long as nobody is unsafe, who cares at all? why is this a thing? sprint, dont sprint, ride a circle around me. just keep it safe. people are weird

[Red Tornado]

Shouldnt you take this up with the group...ya know like the ones involved? Instead of a group of virtual participants.

Yes, but came here first to get some second opinions and see if the direction I was considering going with the ride leader might be the right one. Lots of egos in the group I ride in (probably the norm in lots of bike clubs) and I don't want to stick my neck out there without some level of confidence going in that I'm proposing something reasonable and proper, but please accept my apologies for bringing this up and replying to a few of the posts. I guess that was a dumb idea.
Most of what I've read here has been in line with the way I've started to lean in regards to this issue and I'm glad for all the feedback. Definitely needs to be a discussion with the people in charge of the B group as this isn't the first time it's happened but I've kept quiet so far.

[bigbill]

When I lived in VA Beach, we'd have Tuesday and Thursday Pungo Death rides with designated sprints along the way. It was great race training because you could learn how to meter your effort and still have something in the tank for a sprint. Sometimes we'd have as many as 50 riders show up so the pace was fast and the pack usually split within 10 miles (50 mile ride). The fast pack would roll at 26-28 mph with sprints in the mid 30's. If you were in the fast pack, you were expected to at least rotate through even if you immediately dropped back, just keep it moving.

But there was this one guy.... He'd sit on the back of the group and politely let people ride in front of him and then he'd launch at the sprint points. There was some good natured trash talk, then it went to just trash talk, then to threats that he should contribute to the rotation. We'd usually have two dozen or so heading into the final sprint and it wasn't unusual to see 40 mph on the sprint because the group would wind up to 33-34 on the lead out. One night he sprinted and beat the next guy by a bike length and threw his hands in the air, bad move. The second place guy pushed him in the ditch.

[echappist]

When I lived in VA Beach, we'd have Tuesday and Thursday Pungo Death rides with designated sprints along the way. It was great race training because you could learn how to meter your effort and still have something in the tank for a sprint. Sometimes we'd have as many as 50 riders show up so the pace was fast and the pack usually split within 10 miles (50 mile ride). The fast pack would roll at 26-28 mph with sprints in the mid 30's. If you were in the fast pack, you were expected to at least rotate through even if you immediately dropped back, just keep it moving.

But there was this one guy.... He'd sit on the back of the group and politely let people ride in front of him and then he'd launch at the sprint points. There was some good natured trash talk, then it went to just trash talk, then to threats that he should contribute to the rotation. We'd usually have two dozen or so heading into the final sprint and it wasn't unusual to see 40 mph on the sprint because the group would wind up to 33-34 on the lead out. One night he sprinted and beat the next guy by a bike length and threw his hands in the air, bad move. The second place guy pushed him in the ditch.

first guy is a misanthrope; second guy is a felon...

[Peter P.]

If it's a ride that has a mutually agreed up sprint point then it doesn't matter who's doing what before that. Pulling the group for the majority of the ride doesn't give you any privilege at the line. When I tow a group I know full well what that means for the sprint. If I want to vie for the line I'll ride differently leading up to it.

I'm with ergott on this.

If you have a diesel engine and no sprint, that's not my problem.

If you have both but are dumb enough to burn all your matches with your studly pulling, that's not my problem either.

The unspoken thinking seems to be, if you do all the work you deserve some sort of respect, or these bull-workers must have the right to set the rules.

Wrong.

[BobO]

I'm with ergott on this.

If you have a diesel engine and no sprint, that's not my problem.

If you have both but are dumb enough to burn all your matches with your studly pulling, that's not my problem either.

The unspoken thinking seems to be, if you do all the work you deserve some sort of respect, or these bull-workers must have the right to set the rules.

Wrong.

Personally, I derive a good deal of satisfaction from pulling those fragile sprinters and climbers around all day. I'll seek my glory on TT day. :)

[woodworker]

Group dynamics can be really odd, but I have to admit that I don't get the response of the Big 3.

I've been on many group rides--one regularly. I've been dropped entirely and ridden home on my own; I have been pulled along; and I've pulled--all depending upon my fitness and the level of the riders in the group on any given Saturday. So long as people aren't surging all the time, are holding their lines, are communicating adequately, and are being safe, I'm fine with the rest.

When I've spent a lot of the ride pulling, I understand that I'm likely to be pretty tired at the end. When other riders pull, they are usually ok when lesser riders give it a harder effort in designated intervals.

Perhaps that's the better way of looking at it--that there are designated intervals before regrouping. If you want to go hard during those intervals, go for it. If the interval areas are understood, nobody should be bothered.

For many of my group rides, there was one rider who was hands-down the strongest, and he would pull just to get enough hard work in and help out the weaker riders. When we would hit an interval section, he would pull and then signal when he was done. At times, he wouldn't contest and would just let the others go by, using the time to recover.

...I've tried to model my riding after him. If I pull, I'm doing that because I want to or because I want to spell someone who has been doing the work. I don't get bent because someone beats me to a spot. Pretty silly really.

[rustychisel]

If it's a ride that has a mutually agreed up sprint point then it doesn't matter who's doing what before that. Pulling the group for the majority of the ride doesn't give you any privilege at the line. When I tow a group I know full well what that means for the sprint. If I want to vie for the line I'll ride differently leading up to it.

This. Completely.

As a sprinter who can't climb it's not for me to get annoyed when the skinny guys beat me up Norton Summit by 4 minutes.

[charliedid]

Always be racing.

[54ny77]

As long as doping was involved it's ok.

[charliedid]

As long as doping was involved it's ok.

Especially amphetamines.

[54ny77]

Yes, but only on Tuesdays. That's speedwork day. Sprints, intervals, meth.

Especially amphetamines.

[Tandem Rider]

You said "B group ride". No numbers, no officials, no prizes, right? Isn't that a training ride for non-racers? Now 3 of the non-racers have their collective nose out of joint over a town line sprint after playing locomotive for the entire ride? :confused:

[unterhausen]

the strong guys need to go ride with the A group

[Red Tornado]

At this point I'm leaning pretty favorably towards having a word with the B group leader if - no, when - this happens again. What complicates it is that he's friends with one of the Big 3 outside of cycling. He hasn't said a whole lot, but the little he has spoken reveals he is in agreement with the 3 amigos, so I need to choose my words carefully. The only others I can maybe count on to back me up are the "outlaw" sprinters. The rest of the group seems to be content with sitting in the bunch and just hanging on for dear life.

[bigbill]

At this point I'm leaning pretty favorably towards having a word with the B group leader if - no, when - this happens again. What complicates it is that he's friends with one of the Big 3 outside of cycling. He hasn't said a whole lot, but the little he has spoken reveals he is in agreement with the 3 amigos, so I need to choose my words carefully. The only others I can maybe count on to back me up are the "outlaw" sprinters. The rest of the group seems to be content with sitting in the bunch and just hanging on for dear life.

We'd just do a quick talk before rolling out. If you don't do any work and sit on, don't sprint. If you gapped off the back and either got back on via rolling regroup or someone pulled you back, don't sprint. Lead out the sprint to your heart's content. I would go with how I felt that night. If I feel strong I'll stay in the front dozen riders and keep the pace up. I'll likely not sprint but do a huge effort lead out. If I wasn't feeling that froggy, I'd rotate through at the pace speed set by others.

All that though, there are some riders who shouldn't be on the front. If a paceline is rolling along at 30+ mph and a rider can't pull at that speed, they should rotate through without taking a pull. Just hit the front and move over. We had a sizeable pileup one time when a guy got to the front at 30 mph and sat up. He had no business being there.

[Rusty Luggs]

Riders who sprinted past the guys pushing the pace at the front for the majority of the ride did nothing wrong IMHO.

If you are at the front pushing the pace, it is because you decided to do that. If you did more work than everyone else, it is because you decided to do that. If you complain about it there is exactly one person to blame - yourself. The "you should not sprint because I did too much work" rule exists only in your head.

If it was me on the ride, I would let the same dumb three guys pull away at the front forever, I would not even consider taking a pull, and do whatever I felt like toward the end of the ride after they wasted themselves - attack over and over, sprint... maybe they will figure it out, maybe they won't. If they figure it out, the ride will slow down, if they don't, it will stay the same. I wouldn't waste my time trying to get some group consensus. If the "leader" wants to lead, he can try, but there are some very bullheaded folks out there in the world on bikes.

[m4rk540]

At this point I'm leaning pretty favorably towards having a word with the B group leader if - no, when - this happens again. What complicates it is that he's friends with one of the Big 3 outside of cycling. He hasn't said a whole lot, but the little he has spoken reveals he is in agreement with the 3 amigos, so I need to choose my words carefully. The only others I can maybe count on to back me up are the "outlaw" sprinters. The rest of the group seems to be content with sitting in the bunch and just hanging on for dear life.

Or you could find new people to ride with.

[marciero]

Riders who sprinted past the guys pushing the pace at the front for the majority of the ride did nothing wrong IMHO.

If you are at the front pushing the pace, it is because you decided to do that. If you did more work than everyone else, it is because you decided to do that. If you complain about it there is exactly one person to blame - yourself. The "you should not sprint because I did too much work" rule exists only in your head.

If it was me on the ride, I would let the same dumb three guys pull away at the front forever, I would not even consider taking a pull, and do whatever I felt like toward the end of the ride after they wasted themselves - attack over and over, sprint... maybe they will figure it out, maybe they won't. If they figure it out, the ride will slow down, if they don't, it will stay the same. I wouldn't waste my time trying to get some group consensus. If the "leader" wants to lead, he can try, but there are some very bullheaded folks out there in the world on bikes.

To me this is totally not in keeping with the spirit of a B ride. To me, B ride means mixing it up, maybe a little paceline action, some attacks, and having fun, but still a serious ride where etiquette and respect-for the sport and for others- matter. B ride is serious fun, which increases the enjoyment for all. In my mind, on a B ride the expectation is that everyone should be willing and able to at least pull through and participate in the ride-again, this creates a fun ride.
Is your idea of fun sitting at the back screwing around the whole ride, then launching an "attack" at the end?


At this point I'm leaning pretty favorably towards having a word with the B group leader if - no, when - this happens again. What complicates it is that he's friends with one of the Big 3 outside of cycling. He hasn't said a whole lot, but the little he has spoken reveals he is in agreement with the 3 amigos, so I need to choose my words carefully. The only others I can maybe count on to back me up are the "outlaw" sprinters. The rest of the group seems to be content with sitting in the bunch and just hanging on for dear life.

I'd agree with that. Is there an established pace for the ride and it's just been allowed to creep? It's the responsibility of the ride leader to manage the ride, discourage people from pushing the pace beyond the established B ride pace, and to set the tone of the ride. No, you cant force people to adhere but you can set a tone. Of course, it's more difficult if the current pace has in fact become the de facto established pace.

[ChainNoise]

If it's a B ride and there's only 3 or 4 pulling with a larger group, I'd be a bit ticked. A group ride should not have 4 active riders hardly ever giving others a chance to pull. I'd get myself to the front and make it known that I'm there to take pulls, even if I have to pull in front of the guy leading at that particular point in time. I hate when **** like that happens on a GROUP ride. If it's discussed before rolling off that only 4 people are pulling and everyone's ok with it, that's one thing...but I go to group rides to actively participate and do my share of the work. If I can't keep up or i find that there's a couple riders that clearly don't belong and are putting the group or several others at risk, I drop off and do my own thing.

The leaders raising an eyebrow to sprinting...screw them especially if it's a known Sprint spot. Even if it isn't, those 3 or 4 people have been pulling the whole ride. Where's the workout for the rest of the group?

That's my take on it

[chiasticon]

nobody can ever be 100% happy on a group ride. there's always something you're annoyed with or would change. but that's life. just gotta decide if the thing is a big enough issue to press for a change, or even bow out of riding with the group entirely.

me? I hate town line sprints.

[glepore]

nobody can ever be 100% happy on a group ride. there's always something you're annoyed with or would change. but that's life. just gotta decide if the thing is a big enough issue to press for a change, or even bow out of riding with the group entirely.

me? I hate town line sprints.

Actually, no. There are rides that function fine, for years, and then the 2 or 3 egos show up and it becomes "racing" except with no rules, no yellow line, no marshals, blasting thru stop signs, and pace where no one can pull thru. 2 or 3 people f it up for 30, and no one wants to call them on it because they don't want to be "that guy".
I've been that guy. No one listens, because it implies weakness. BS. Go race or ride with the A's if your ego demands crushing folks. Good B rides exist for the smooth paceline, the rolling effortlessly sensation etc. When did it all become about hanging on for dear life?

[mtechnica]

Man group rides are weird. I’ve only ever ridden with teams or friends, not “open to the public” groups and to be honest I’m kind of afraid to at this point lol...

[Hellgate]

Eh, groups rides happen. It is what it is. Honestly who cares?

I go on group rides a few times a year to catch up with buddies then rip their legs off. That's what friends are for.

[saab2000]

B groups are so weird.

This was my thought exactly. Anyone other than the A++ riders needn’t get their undies in a bundle over anything competitive. Riding in these things should be 1. safe 2. a good workout and 3. enjoyable.

Getting bent up over a sprint in a B ride is absurd. Leave the competitive juices for the top group, if one can hang. Can’t hang? Don’t worry - be happy. Wanna sprint? Train harder to ride with the fast kids. It’s a meritocracy.

[smokersteve]

Yeah B group rides are weird

[GregL]

This was my thought exactly. Anyone other than the A++ riders needn’t get their undies in a bundle over anything competitive. Riding in these things should be 1. safe 2. a good workout and 3. enjoyable.

Getting bent up over a sprint in a B ride is absurd. Leave the competitive juices for the top group, if one can hang. Can’t hang? Don’t worry - be happy. Wanna sprint? Train harder to ride with the fast kids. It’s a meritocracy.
And the best A+++ riders I’ve met and ridden with (national-level pros) were the most chill riders on the group rides. They had nothing to prove to us weekend warriors. I’ve taken my cues from those pros. Club/group rides are for fun and training. I’ll pull ‘til I puke and still try to contest a town line sprint on our local club rides. It’s fun, challenging, and helps prep for real racing on the weekends. If someone hangs on and then passes me on a sprint or hill, good on them.

Greg

[beeatnik]

Man group rides are weird. I’ve only ever ridden with teams or friends, not “open to the public” groups and to be honest I’m kind of afraid to at this point lol...

World Famous Montrose has no rules, for better or worse. Come check it out!

[Red Tornado]

Missed this week's B ride due to circumstances beyond my control. Anyhoo was told that one of the faster guys (but not one of the group that controls the pace) put in a strong attack a little ways out from the "finish" and could not be pulled back! He did take a few pulls during the ride, but no monster pulls. No idea what the powers that be thought about it, nor do I care.

I think from here on I'm going to show up, take a few pulls during the ride (I do believe everyone that's able should put in some work) and if I feel froggy at the end, going to to go for it. Hopefully, others will follow and we can have a sprint train. If not, oh well. In case anyone says something, sorry then don't set the pace just high enough to keep the majority behind you and then cry when you're too tired to sprint. I don't owe you anything, especially if I've busted my nuts to take a few pulls in spite of your controlling riding style. I've found out there's a handful of others that feel the same way, so got that going for me.

These few guys are the type that continue to propagate the image of the uptight, arrogant roadie.

[Blue Jays]

The guys fostering an unreasonably fast B-ride pace should occasionally visit the A-ride to see if they are sufficiently fast to hang with that crew.

[Red Tornado]

They can hang on to the A pack, but that's it. Which, I suspect, is the reason they're cherry picking the B ride.
Hey, maybe it will make us all stronger.

[beeatnik]

Not sure if asked before...is your group on bike paths or open roads?

Edit: just re-read the op.

A 16 rider paceline on open roads. That's interesting.

[GregL]

They can hang on to the A pack, but that's it. Which, I suspect, is the reason they're cherry picking the B ride.
Hey, maybe it will make us all stronger.
There are a few of these types everywhere. Around here, we call them "cat 5 lifers" or "citizen race heroes." Human egos can be pretty fragile, and some bike racers are more fragile than most...

Greg

[cp43]

They can hang on to the A pack, but that's it. Which, I suspect, is the reason they're cherry picking the B ride.
Hey, maybe it will make us all stronger.

Can the rest of the B-ride just let these guys ride up the road? Back off when they're on the front, and do your own thing?

[simonov]

Can the rest of the B-ride just let these guys ride up the road? Back off when they're on the front, and do your own thing?

Ding, ding, ding. The way you handle guys like this is to let them pull away. Eventually they'll either realize that they're jerks who nobody wants to ride with, or they'll get bored of riding off the front and join the A-group. Or they'll all give each other high fives at the end for "sticking the break," but you don't have to care because you won't be with them.

[ergott]

Can the rest of the B-ride just let these guys ride up the road? Back off when they're on the front, and do your own thing?

I did that last week. I was pulling the group and was told we had some riders hurting so I intentionally dialed it back. Guy goes around me and sits there about 50 yards up the road and I refused to play along. He was deep in the drops. He did it earlier and that's how the tail end started to fracture a bit. The people behind me knew what I was doing and appreciated the steady pull to keep everyone together. It was only a hair slower than before so average speed was still pretty good. Took him about 10 minutes or so before he figured it out and dropped back. He could have offered to just work on the front. That would have been nice.

Pro tip, if you are feeling strong ride with your hands on the tops. The added aero penalty over being in the drops or hoods helps even things out. Guy on the front could have just ridden on the tops and would have perfectly fit into the pace of the group and still got his workout in.

[Blue Jays]

"...Pro Tip: If you are feeling strong ride with your hands on the tops. The added aero penalty over being in the drops or hoods helps even things out. Guy on the front could have just ridden on the tops and would have perfectly fit into the pace of the group and still got his workout in..."
Agreed. Yes, agree this is an excellent technique to utilize.
It is also perfect when "towing" someone back onto main group.

[Red Tornado]

Not sure if asked before...is your group on bike paths or open roads?

Edit: just re-read the op.

A 16 rider paceline on open roads. That's interesting.

The ride I posted about was a 2-wide "paceline". Lead riders drop off to their outside. Leaders were pushing it and not dropping off on this day.
We occasionally will do one long revolving paceline on sparsely traveled roads. You get a long time to recover from your pull.

[beeatnik]

If everyone knows each other and there's organization then blowing chet up is not kosher. Out here fast group rides are 50 to 150 deep and no one knows anyone. So there's no ride leader(s). Basically, it's a poor man's Pro Peloton. Arrowhead and all that. Whether it's the "super fast" ride with national champs or the "tempo" ride, if guys go off the front, they either get chased down or not. That's it. In the end, there's some kind of universal law that keeps the average speed on the city street ride at 21mph and 26mph on the closedish loop at the World Famous Rose Bowl. But, ya, I do miss the good ole days I was never a part of.