I am really completely out of touch with the latest and the greatest

[weisan]

Last week, I traded in one of my bikes at a local bike shop for $1100. They gave me a gift card to buy anything I want in the store. So, here I am, thinking to myself at the store, "hey, maybe this is the perfect opportunity to try some of latest components..." I asked the sales guy about eTap, and making sure he understood that I knew absolutely nothing about the groupset other than it's wireless and made by SRAM. He showed me a Specialized Roubaix road bike that has SRAM Red eTap AXS. I took a peek at the hanging price tag -- "$10,000". (gulp)

Ok..."er, so how much is the groupset?"

sales guy: "I have to check, I don't know for sure, I think it's in the $2000 price range."

Ahhhh....wow, I didn't realize I still need to cough up some money, I thought surely $1000+ should buy me a nice complete group....nooooo. This showed how out of touch I am with the latest and the greatest, I am still riding 9 and 10 speeds, haven't even converted to Di2 or any of the electronic groupset. :eek:

Long story short, to help with my sticker shock, the young man managed to convince me to order the cheaper set of eTap Force AXS which was selling at $1,650 from QDP. At the cashier, it ringed up to $1780 with tax included. In the end, I not only traded in my bike but also spent an additional $680 which I didn't expect.

And that's not the end of the story.

Later in the day, I had to talk to the same guy again on the phone. Apparently, he had made a mistake in assuming that the group that we ordered included the crankset and the cassette at that price and it wasn't!!!
He was very apologetic and felt misled which I don't blame him, he was just going by the picture that he saw on the Internet.

http://alicehui.com/bike/Sale/etap.jpg


Anyway, I kindly told him that I really couldn't afford to pay any extra cash to get the crank and the cassette, so we canceled the order.

Now I am back with a gift card that has a store value of $1100 which I decided that I will probably not spend on buying anything from the store, thus this ad (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=241837).

What happened was, I did a bit of soul searching coming out of this experience.

I am really not a retro-kind-of-guy and I get that the newer stuff works really nice.

But I think, for now, I will pass.

My current state of mind with regards to biking is one of contentment and tranquility. :p

I am happy with where I am and what I have. Truly.

[mtechnica]

I think you'd find an 11 speed ultegra or dura ace mechanical group to be a really nice upgrade over your 9/10 speed and it won't put you in the poor house. I'm not sold on electronic personally but YMMV.

[Mikej]

I feel your pain- I thought I was going to get a custom ti super bike all built up with axs, Enve King wheels, custom ti stem, everything- guuulpp! I actually don’t even know what to do now as I have a drawing, but just didn’t really comprehend the cost of everything I wanted. I already have a ti bike from this builder, now it seems fine after the costs and decisions, which I still haven’t sorted out. Hi

[AngryScientist]

smart shoppers on a budget never buy the latest and greatest. you always pay a premium for the absolute cutting edge. give any of this new stuff a couple years and it will be discounted to where it is much more affordable to the masses.

[Dave]

Even force axs is really high priced. I bought two chorus 12 groups for less.

My colnago c-rs was built up with chorus and zondas for no more than 3k.

[Gummee]

I think you'd find an 11 speed ultegra or dura ace mechanical group to be a really nice upgrade over your 9/10 speed and it won't put you in the poor house. I'm not sold on electronic personally but YMMV.

This

I enjoy Di2 when I've used it, but it's pretty much mechanical, mechanical, and mechanical for me

M

[Mr. Pink]

Somebody lost a battery in their electronic shifter the other day in the Vuelta, so, hey, there's that. And you won't have a team car to wait for in a minute or two, carrying your spare bike.

[stephenmarklay]

Which is why everyone was doing mail order out of the UK.

Really, I kind of soured on the $ that cycling was taking. Between the bikes, the bibs the shoes etc. it all just got too much for me. Folks with the means riding around on 10k bikes.

Anyway I digress :)

[steelbikerider]

It is possible to ride the really good stuff if you shop well and do your own work.

I don't think I will ever buy a brand new top of the line bike at retail unless I win the lottery. I usually buy a frame and switch over the group. Next year I may build a new set of wheels, then cranks and brakes, then drivetrain, all at sale prices. after 4-5 years I repeat the process. I average about a $1000/year on new components and consumables.

Now I'm riding a 3 year old protour level frame(barely used team bike) with all 9000/9001 DA that was built up for around $3000 without wheels. A similar build in a retail shop would be $7000-8000. Way more than I need but I enjoy it. My second bike is a custom steel with 7900.

However, my next purchase will probably be a new custom steel from a reputable TX frame builder to replace my 20 year old steel frame that has seen 3 different groupsets. The frame alone will probably cost as much as it did to build up my carbon bike.

The other caveat is to not let the old parts accumulate and gather dust. I'm impressed with the $1100 trade in. Go to Sport Shop and stock up on Castelli fall and cool weather gear that you normally wouldn't buy.

Anybody need any 7700 stuff?

[HTupolev]

I thought surely $1000+ should buy me a nice complete group....nooooo.
It absolutely can. It won't get you the most expensive stuff, but that doesn't mean anything in any market. Top-end prices are always whatever people will pay. Would you say that $200,000 isn't enough to buy a nice car just you can spend several million on a Bugatti?

At any rate, I don't understand why you'd be that hung up on latest-and-greatest in the first place.
Outside of e-shifting, shifting technology hasn't made any notable strides in nearly thirty years. And while e-shifting is pretty neat for TT/Tri bikes, since it allows putting shifters on the basebars, it's not terribly critical on road bikes where brifters already allow shifting out of the saddle in both the hoods and hooks. Unless you're trying to solve a specific problem with your shifting ergonomics, or literally have no budget limitations, in 2019 I personally wouldn't bother with e-shifting on a road bike.
More speeds is nice, but presently doesn't require top dollar. If you want 2x12, look into Campy Chorus.

[bigbill]

This year I forayed into the Shimano world. All my road bikes are campy 10 or 11. I bought a Ultegra 8000 mechanical group from the classifieds here and put it on a really nice Ti bike, that I bought here. The 8000 stuff works really well but I've had a few hand issues throughout my life including a compound fracture of my left hand, several broken fingers, and the webbing between my thumb and forefinger sliced open, all in my 30's. Now I'm 54 and it's starting to bug me when I ride. Today is the first day I seriously thought about Di2. I have an easier time with campy and the thumb paddle.

[FlashUNC]

Not to pile on, but you would have been swapping a freehub body as well. All AXS cassettes start with a 10 tooth small cog, requiring SRAM's XDR freehub body to use.

If you don't have a hub from a manufacturer making an XDR freehub, add wheels to the list.

The new AXS stuff is outstanding, but I don't like how SRAM is pushing it out into the market when they say you should be getting it all-in. If it's a full group, then sell it like a full group, not just the shifty bits.

[joosttx]

I love my axs eagle on my MTB. Although I would say it is not revolutionary I would say it is next level to everything out there. The idea of going 10x50 cassette and singe crank ring really intrigues me for my gravel bike. I also like the idea of having two bikes with interchangeable drivetrains.

[colker]

Thing is... the latest drivetrains won´t change much the quality of my bike riding. The new crop of full suspension trail bikes otoh. although i have lots of fun on my hardtails i know something like a Mojo 3 or Mojo 4 would open new doors. I would need different trails to explore those bikes full potential. So what i really need is travel w/ bikes to different places.. not more bike stuff.

[zmalwo]

12s is not even needed. Both Sram and Campy was on 12s this year but the tour was still won by a 11s group. If you look at the price difference b/t 11s and 12s groups it's almost double the price. Ultegra di2 group is the best group ever made, more durable than DA, 60% the price, shifts better than any groupset on the planet and the most customize-able group as well. Everything expensive nowadays is a scam. The money goes to inefficiency,less averaged out developmental cost vs a small market, advertisement, exponential salary etc. It's like a Rolex back in the 60s cost a serviceman's one month salary but now it's more like a whole year's salary yet their watch haven't improved at all. Bike parts to a lesser degree but expensive stuff always feeds on people's ignorance of thinking that higher price tag = magically better.

[Dave]

Chorus 12 costs less than chorus 11.

[zmalwo]

Chorus 12 costs less than chorus 11.

what, where?

[commandcomm]

Get Shimano 8000 series and call it a day. In my opinion best value for the cost.

[joosttx]

You know what is interesting about this thread is, no one is questioning Weisan claim that Sram makes the latest and greatest drivetrain. As Biggie raps, "Things done changed".

[Alaska Mike]

Most of my bikes are equipped with SRAM 10 speed. I have had newer groupsets on bikes, but the "advantages" weren't enough to cause me to upgrade, especially with the investment I currently have in wheels and components. I stopped stockpiling about a year ago, but I currently have enough parts to last me for quite a while, so I don't worry about it.

The one bike that I currently have 11 speed on has SRAM eTap. Since it's a travel bike, that has been a game changer for me. I can swap derailleurs or shifters at will for different configurations with minimal issues other than a little pairing.

Does it really make the actual riding experience better than my "old" 10 speed drivetrains? Not really. Once extra gear across the same spread is nice, but not necessary. Shifting is easier, but a well-tuned drivetrain was never really a chore to actuate for me. To be honest, getting it dialed in took me much longer than on any mechanical groupset (to include ones with Yaw derailleurs), but I expect that might change with experience.

Eventually I'll move to 11 speed, 12 speed, or phase-plasma shifting. Or just buy an ebike. Who knows? As long as I have fun, it really doesn't matter how the gears change.

[joev]

Understand... Just today I was checking out the Cannondale website. A new crop of Synapse bikes are posted. $8500 for Synapse Hi-Mod Disk Record. :eek:

While I applaud the Campy spec, no mention of electronic.

[mhespenheide]

On the other hand, a used but near-mint 5800 drivetrain, a new cassette, and a new chain can be as low as $200-250. I've seen 6800 wheelsets go for under $100.

So unless you're actually racing, you could buy a second-hand bike with a nice frame and modernize it to 11-speed for under a grand.

The highest end is now stratospheric, but the 7000 or 8000 groupsets are better than *-07 won the Tour de France with. If you choose not to spend $10,000 on a bike, there really isn't that much of a differential in your actual experience while out riding.

[saab2000]

Get Shimano 8000 series and call it a day. In my opinion best value for the cost.

5800 or 7000 are essentially the same. I have 5800 and 9000 and blindly it would be hard to tell the difference.

Your point is taken on 8000 but you can even go to 7000 today and not worry about it. Shimano stuff is so functionally excellent today at all levels it's hard for me to imagine the stuff we used to ride on a few decades ago.

[zmalwo]

R7000, R8000, R9100 functionally are the same, the only difference is the material used to reduce weight. You actually get less durability wise when you pay more take the cassettes for example, Dura ace uses Ti for the last few cogs and Ultegra uses steel through out the whole cassette. Ultegra will actually last longer for less than 1/2 the cost while only weighing few grams more than DA. All three groupsets perform the same, confirmed by Shimano marketing rep.

[homagesilkhope]

Yep, sorry Wei-pal. Way back in Y2K, a steeply discounted price on a just-introduced Record 10 group was already $1100 (including hubs and headset). You're fishing off the "aspirational" end of the pier (where - as I hear - the fish are supposed to be out of reach or almost out of reach for nearly all of us).

[weisan]

,

[saab2000]

As mentioned, no crankset.

[Ttx1]

Electronic shifting is shockingly fast and accurate. But it doesn’t change my experience or ability on a ride for the better.

Shimano’s nested triggers are a usability disaster, especially with gloves/in the cold. I have zero appetite to try the alternate trigger points/modes.

Campy’s brifters - mech or elec - are far more ergo and rational.

SRAM is 2nd, IMO, assuming you have full hand/wrist function.

The other issue is gear range. Wide(r) range clusters increasingly common on newer groupsets = significant steps, particularly in 1x configurations.

Thinking it through over a couple thousand miles on my newish DA Di2 groupset, I’m almost certain that a majority of riders would be better served by front triples. The trend toward 1x is cost reduction disguised as a feature/benefit.

Simplicity is a strong selling point, but huge steps are not an awesome feature for true allroad bikes that spend 50% of the time, or even just 20%, on pavement or high cadence roads with any type of surface.

Last comment - my circa 2011 SR group looked almost new after many thousands of miles. My DA 9100 group had visible wear in the first 30 days of use.

The emperor’s new groupset...

[stephenmarklay]

Only a few years ago these group sets could be had fairly cheap out of the UK. Did they crack down on that?

[joosttx]

The other issue is gear range. Wide(r) range clusters increasingly common on newer groupsets = significant steps, particularly in 1x configurations.

Thinking it through over a couple thousand miles on my newish DA Di2 groupset, I’m almost certain that a majority of riders would be better served by front triples. The trend toward 1x is cost reduction disguised as a feature/benefit...

For the gravel movement, the single has allowed for a wider tire, lighter weight while keeping road bike geometry. The cost reduction is trickling down to the consumer too. My feeling was the 1x was SRAMs admission that they could not develop a front derailleur. There are benefits for the rider to use the 1x but wide gearing steps is a disadvantage

[buddybikes]

1x has a "cool" factor. Think people going into shop aren't affected looking at a 1x and saying, this must be better...it's newer...

Smaller 2x's would certainly been able to be designed and would be incredible for many functions.

[choke]

I often see people talking about the weight savings for 1x but it might not be as much as many of you think.

As an example, using some quick numbers I found and assuming a 1:1 ratio for the lowest gear:

A Shimano XT 11-42 cassette is 432 grams.

An Ultegra 11-34 cassette is 337 grams.
An Ultegra 34T chainring is 33 grams.
An Ultegra FD is 90/102 grams (braze-on/clamp).
The total weight of that setup with the clamp-on FD is 472 grams, so it's 40 grams heavier.

I know that lighter cassettes exist and obviously there's some more added weight in cables and housing for the FD as well as the shift mechanism for the FD....but still, not a huge difference.

[Lionel]

You know what is interesting about this thread is, no one is questioning Weisan claim that Sram makes the latest and greatest drivetrain. As Biggie raps, "Things done changed".

Well I am. Will never by a 2x road group with a cassette that starts at 10 and chainrings combo that are different for the sake of being different. Did I mention that it looks ugly too ?

[choke]

Way back in Y2K, a steeply discounted price on a just-introduced Record 10 group was already $1100 (including hubs and headset). That Record group also had brake calipers, BB and crank....and maybe more. The $1650 "groupset" that Weisan posted consisted of 4 parts: shifters and both derailleurs.

I can remember when a groupset looked like this....

http://misc.ciocctoo.com/nrg.JPG

[Gummee]

That Record group also had brake calipers, BB and crank....and maybe more. The $1650 "groupset" that Weisan posted consisted of 4 parts: shifters and both derailleurs.

I can remember when a groupset looked like this....

http://misc.ciocctoo.com/nrg.JPG
Including a seatpost!

M

[Mikej]

Dude you made my day with that (not) campy group pic- thanks!

[merckxman]

And bikes came like this.

[IJWS]

this is all great, but only one person has acknowledged the OP's original issue: $1100 in store credit at the LBS. What to possibly buy at full retail that would not be a wash.

[steelbikerider]

Not Campy, looks like a Zeus gruppo to me.

[BRad704]

I don't know what the current stable looks like, but there's always N+1.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190902/06d815819326e9859a16a68b5460988f.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Hilltopperny]

$1,100 goes a lot further I the used bike category. The new etap axs looks awesome and functional, but unless you have a huge amount of expendable income the price tags are beyond reasonable at retail for most. $4,000 for a group set is a stretch IMHO. $2,800 for force axs is also a stretch.

I have tried most of the stuff out there over the past few years and always find myself ultimately running mechanical campy on my road bikes. I am using Ultegra on my disc gravel bike and it is functionally excellent, but if I ever wear it out I am going to give the Campagnolo disc group a shot.

Even campagnolo has dropped the carbon levers from the new chorus group which explains why it is the same or cheaper than the current 11spd group. I found the 11spd chorus to be the best value in the lineup.

I am running record 12 on my Ottrott and it is amazing, but had it not come with the frameset when I purchased it second hand I wouldn't have gone out and purchased it at full retail. I would have put the chorus 11spd on and called it a day.

I know the rep at my lbs just offered up his giant tcr disc with full red axs disc group, origin 8 carbon rims laced to white industries cld hubs all with under 500 miles to me for around 5k. The build new at retail would likely be north of 10k!

The new system six with red etap axs retails at around 10k+ and then you have to pay an extra $800 to activate the power meter! Money is a relative thing though and there are folks with the income level to enjoy these 10k+ bikes without any real issue.

Sent from my LGL423DL using Tapatalk

[Tony T]

….I thought surely $1000+ should buy me a nice complete group....nooooo. This showed how out of touch I am with the latest and the greatest, ....

$1,600 six years ago, Campy Record grouppo, UK prices.

[soulspinner]

Chorus 12 costs less than chorus 11.

Crazy:rolleyes:

[72gmc]

$1100 store credit at the LBS?

1) replace clothing and/or shoes
2) or upgrade/refresh 2-3 bike drivetrains (shopping sensibly and off season)
3) or buy a hardtail mtb (also off season) and have a blast not thinking about road prices

[R3awak3n]

AXS is too expensive... its amazing though and I totally want it on my OPEN.
I have an etap bike (11 speed red hydro) and had it on my english. I absolutely love it and would buy no other e group. I have decided to go 1x on my open (not because I want but out of necessity since 2x is just not working for that bike) and came to the same problem as you. I did not need the crank but was going to set me $1800 and right now that is not going to happen. I am selling the campy on the bike and dont want to drop that much more so I went woth force 1x


I will eventually do axs but for now force it is.

[choke]

Including a seatpost!

MAnd pedals. Also, look close near the outside edge of the box, there's a groove that goes from top left to the right and all the way to the bottom left which holds the cable housing and inner cables.

Not Campy, looks like a Zeus gruppo to me.Good eye....it is a Zeus New Racer group.

[texbike]

Last week, I traded in one of my bikes at a local bike shop for $1100. They gave me a gift card to buy anything I want in the store.

Just out of curiosity, what did you trade in that they were willing to give you $1100 for? Shops are notorious for offering low trade-in values.

Texbike

[steveoz]

I thought 11 speed waaas the latest and greatest...:eek:

[theboucher]

I had a battery die on me while out riding yesterday. First time it’s happened. Not really an issue with Etap 2x, since you can switch front and rear and make it home, but I felt so silly texting my partner from the side of the road that my bike ran out of batteries.

I have a couple of bikes built with Ultegra 8000, one Sram Force 1x build, and a 10-speed Campy shift/Sram drivetrain mix (weird, but works great). And then the Mosaic with Etap, which I opted for to avoid the rigamarole of Di2 wires and junctions and whatnot.

The latest and greatest is just an endless chase. I really enjoy riding different drivetrains on different bikes for different applications. They’re all so darn good, it just comes down to personal preference. And trying to keep up with whatever is new and hot is just not a good use of time.

Embrace your out of touch-ness! Shy away from whatever is new and flashy! Go with simple, solid and and fun. But test the waters- ride whatever you can get your hands on to see if you like it. It’s your opinion that matters.

[Hellgate]

Yup, nice groups are expensive, always have been.

I'm honestly shocked you took a gift card. Sport Shop is making out on both sides of that transaction.

[wildboar]

this is all great, but only one person has acknowledged the OP's original issue: $1100 in store credit at the LBS. What to possibly buy at full retail that would not be a wash.

Wahoo Kickr or gravel bike?

[parris]

Wei Pal i don't think youre so out of touch as much as a little surprised in just HOW much some things are going for. I never imaged that bicycles would be 10k+. ESPECIALLY for production bikes. I could understand it easier for a full on custom given what they are.

[Malinois]

Wahoo Kickr or gravel bike?
I agree on the trainer, though I think the Tacx Neo 2 (if they can get for you) would probably give the best return. You could 1.) sell it quickly, or 2.) use it during this fall/winter and then sell, or 3.) keep it. They’re very very nice and still not readily available on the secondary market so you’d be able to get good money for one, quite probably even after an offseason of use as long as you don’t kick the snot out of it.

But I’d wait a week before committing to anything tech, just in case someone shows up to Eurobike with an absolute game-changer. Doubtful, but you never know.

[SPOKE]

The original eTap 11spd Group is now pretty reasonably priced. I n get really expected to like the group much due to the way you have to use both levers to shift the front derailleur but.....
The good thing is you can use nearly any 11spd crank and probably most of your existing wheels. SRAM, shimano or Campy cassettes work fine.
The only “extras” I purchased was 2 batteries an another charger so I could charge both batteries at once. The stuff works as advertised. Only way you will be disappointed is if you have DI2 or EPS to compare it to. The SRAM shifts are just a tad slower.

[robertbb]

Chorus 12 costs less than chorus 11.

Because Chorus 11 was a higher-end groupset that shared more in common with Super Record than Potenza.

Chorus 12 is a downgrade all around (for the one extra cog).

[Dave]

Because Chorus 11 was a higher-end groupset that shared more in common with Super Record than Potenza.

Chorus 12 is a downgrade all around (for the one extra cog).

The downgrade is minor, I'd say, after owning two groups for a few weeks now. The shifters and FD works better than chorus 11 and the rear shifting is better. The shifters now have the small hand adjustment on the brake lever. The 48/32 crank and 11-34 cassette were just what I needed. The brakes look the same, except for no aluminum fasteners. The shift cables are the same as all other 12 speed groups.

I have no regrets about selling my 2018 chorus 11 parts and buying chorus 12. I did keep the chorus 11 brakes on one bike. If don't need a new crank, the 11 speed will probably work.

[Ttx1]

For the gravel movement, the single has allowed for a wider tire, lighter weight while keeping road bike geometry. The cost reduction is trickling down to the consumer too. My feeling was the 1x was SRAMs admission that they could not develop a front derailleur. There are benefits for the rider to use the 1x but wide gearing steps is a disadvantage

I can run 650x53 or 700x38 - The limiting factor for 700 is chainstay length, not the FD or chainline. A lot of newer frames have similar capacity or better, the FD issue is less of a concern these days unless you want 3” tires.

Then again, to your point, there are lot less people complaining about SRAM FDs these days...

[joosttx]

I can run 650x53 or 700x38 - The limiting factor for 700 is chainstay length, not the FD or chainline. A lot of newer frames have similar capacity or better, the FD issue is less of a concern these days unless you want 3” tires.

Then again, to your point, there are lot less people complaining about SRAM FDs these days...

7000x38 i is about the max you can go with a 2x. If you want to go much more wider a 1X is needed.

[R3awak3n]

Because Chorus 11 was a higher-end groupset that shared more in common with Super Record than Potenza.

Chorus 12 is a downgrade all around (for the one extra cog).

If weight is all its about, sure a downgrade but to some, metal levers is an upgrade.

[CunegoFan]

The downgrade is minor, I'd say, after owning two groups for a few weeks now. The shifters and FD works better than chorus 11 and the rear shifting is better. The shifters now have the small hand adjustment on the brake lever. The 48/32 crank and 11-34 cassette were just what I needed. The brakes look the same, except for no aluminum fasteners. The shift cables are the same as all other 12 speed groups.

I have no regrets about selling my 2018 chorus 11 parts and buying chorus 12. I did keep the chorus 11 brakes. If don't need a new crank, the 11 speed will probably work.

It looks like a huge downgrade to me. So much so that there is no way I can do it. The cassette options have ranges that are so huge the gearing is worse than 11 speed. I tried a 11-27 in 11 speed and the gaps between cogs were terrible. Had to go to a 12-25. How is it that we have 12 speed cassettes and I still cannot get an 18 tooth cog? Every time they add another cog they just stick it on one end of the cassette; how about filling in the gaps for once.

[Dave]

It looks like a huge downgrade to me. So much so that there is no way I can do it. The cassette options have ranges that are so huge the gearing is worse than 11 speed. I tried a 11-27 in 11 speed and the gaps between cogs were terrible. Had to go to a 12-25. How is it that we have 12 speed cassettes and I still cannot get an 18 tooth cog? Every time they add another cog they just stick it on one end of the cassette; how about filling in the gaps for once.

You are confusing the comments about Chorus 12 with 12 speed in general. The cassettes from Record and SR all work the same.

All 12 speed cassettes are straight block from 11-17. The 18-19 is an odd-ball, where the percentage difference is so small, that it's been eliminated from most cassettes from all brands. If your terrain is so flat that you think the 18 has value, then you probably don't need 12 speeds.

Currently, you can get an 18T with an 11-23 or 12-25 11 speed cassette, so what you're saying is you want an 11-25 or 12-27 12 speed cassette.

Most complaints like yours overlook a solution that involves a change in the chain rings, unless you also need a 53/11 top gear, then an 11-25 is the answer. The percentage of change at the 18-19 shift if far smaller than the 12-13 shift. At some point, steeper terrain requires a larger percentage difference between the sprockets, not smaller.

[benb]

I guess I'm out of touch too, the electronic groups and the new odd crank/ring setups have no appeal to me at all. Shifting is mostly a non-issue and I feel no need to add thousands of dollars of cost to a bike just to add more complexity and save that tiny amount of physical effort to push the shift lever.

I do look forward to the day I need a new gravel-y bike and will get hydraulic discs. I have TRP Mini-Vs right now and they're mostly OK but I feel like I have to adjust them pretty frequently as the pads wear and they prevent me from having a fat tire wheelset & a skinny tire wheelset as my particular bike only likes really wide rims.

I can put up with 50/34, barely. Otherwise I am totally down with the idea that a triple would be better in 99% of the cases over all these oddball new setups. Better chainline, don't need heavy pie plate cassettes that wear out fast, don't need clutch derailleurs, etc..

The best feature they could add for me would be extended wear on the chain/cassette/rings. Electronic shifting has no effect on that but all the other "advancements" the last 10-15 years have all come at the cost of more expensive consumable parts that wear out faster. Parts that wear out faster mean more money down the drain and either more weekend afternoons wasted working on my bike or more frequent hassle getting the LBS to do it.

AFAICT 9-speed cluster in the back is still WAY better than 10 speed and 10 speed is a good bit better than 11 & 12 when it comes to wear resistance. I still have 9-speed on my MTB and it's got ridiculous miles on it compared to any 10-speed I've owned. Thicker cogs, thicker rings, thicker chain. Better wear all around. The MTB takes way more abuse too.. ride it through the mud and salt and don't even bother to clean it.

[Mark McM]

Most complaints like yours overlook a solution that involves a change in the chain rings, unless you also need a 53/11 top gear, then an 11-25 is the answer. The percentage of change at the 18-19 shift if far smaller than the 12-13 shift. At some point, steeper terrain requires a larger percentage difference between the sprockets, not smaller.

I agree that It appears that the manufacturers are pushing toward a solution that requires smaller chainrings. But not manufacturers are supplying the cranks for this. The Campagnolo 48/32 crank is a bit of a disappointment: They've come up with completely new chainring BCDs, for a very minimal difference in chainring sizes - 48/32 provides less change in gear ratios than the difference in adjacent rear sprockets. And considering that a "standard" compact crank can take chainrings down to 33 teeth, Campagnolo's 32 tooth chainring is hardly any difference at all.

And I disagree that steeper terrain requires larger percentage difference between chainring sizes. The change in cadence and leg force is the same with a given percent difference in gear size, regardless of how steep the terrain is. My legs prefer an 8-10% difference between gears across the entire cassette, and I'm frustrated by the tendency for cassettes to be designed with small percent jumps between the smaller sprockets, and percent large jumps between larger sprockets.

[jmoore]

$1100 store credit at the LBS?

1) replace clothing and/or shoes
2) or upgrade/refresh 2-3 bike drivetrains (shopping sensibly and off season)
3) or buy a hardtail mtb (also off season) and have a blast not thinking about road prices

^this

Or $1100 would build some really nice wheels and have money left for tires.

[Spaghetti Legs]

This year I forayed into the Shimano world. All my road bikes are campy 10 or 11. I bought a Ultegra 8000 mechanical group from the classifieds here and put it on a really nice Ti bike, that I bought here. The 8000 stuff works really well but I've had a few hand issues throughout my life including a compound fracture of my left hand, several broken fingers, and the webbing between my thumb and forefinger sliced open, all in my 30's. Now I'm 54 and it's starting to bug me when I ride. Today is the first day I seriously thought about Di2. I have an easier time with campy and the thumb paddle.

A friend of mine in his 60's with arthritis in his hands tells me that electronic shifting is a game changer for him.

Weisan - I'm with you. I'm content riding the older stuff. I have only one bike with the first gen Campy 11 speed. I remember lusting over the latest and greatest 15 years ago (Colnago C50, Campy Record Carbon 10, Carbon wheels yowza!) but the new stuff now really doesn't light me up. Show me a hand made steel bike with chrome lugs though ...

[SuperColnago]

Arthritis might be a reason, yes for E! Until then....
FWIW, just changed my cables back to Campag cables on my Merckx with Record 10sp gruppo WOW, crisp butter shifts, great feedback, lovely would never need better!
Then went for a ride on my MOOTS RSL with 2018 Record 11sp I bought new, and prefer 10sp shifting for feedback (I’m old)...
This a great thread, the etap stuff is overwhelming, I would like to try it, but its overwhelming....
This is a great thread....did I already say that? > old...

A friend of mine in his 60's with arthritis in his hands tells me that electronic shifting is a game changer for him.

Weisan - I'm with you. I'm content riding the older stuff. I have only one bike with the first gen Campy 11 speed. I remember lusting over the latest and greatest 15 years ago (Colnago C50, Campy Record Carbon 10, Carbon wheels yowza!) but the new stuff now really doesn't light me up. Show me a hand made steel bike with chrome lugs though ...

[Dave]

I suppose that different people have different needs when it comes to cog spacing, but if the current 11-29 cassette has too large of jumps between the larger cogs, tell us what would be better.

If the 29 isn't low enough, then the contention is that a 46/30 or similar crank is needed. That's not enough top gear for me.

I've been riding the 11-34 for several weeks now. I have no complaints about the jumps between the cogs. My current routes have some grades of at least 12%. Slopes are not the same for very long, so my cadence may vary by 10 rpm, with no change in the gear I'm using. If the slope is that steep, I'm using the 34 sprocket until it lets up and I can use the 29.

[benb]

I think I have a 50/34 with a 12-32 on my Space Horse IIRC. It might be a 11-34 though.

I bought that for towing a trailer. That's a bike that weighs 27lbs and I was towing something like 80lbs with it.

That cassette block is super annoying to me in normal road riding. I take off from a stop light and I'm skipping 3 cogs at a time and then riding the 50 ring 90% of the time even when I'm out of shape.

On a go fast road bike intended for paved roads I can't see anything that low or lower making any sense. A 14-15lb carbon super bike with a 50/34 + 11-34 is nuts to me. That combo lets you go 6mph without having to get out of the saddle, that's a Mt. Washington hillclimb setup.

[Dekonick]

Most of my bikes are equipped with SRAM 10 speed. I have had newer groupsets on bikes, but the "advantages" weren't enough to cause me to upgrade, especially with the investment I currently have in wheels and components. I stopped stockpiling about a year ago, but I currently have enough parts to last me for quite a while, so I don't worry about it.

The one bike that I currently have 11 speed on has SRAM eTap. Since it's a travel bike, that has been a game changer for me. I can swap derailleurs or shifters at will for different configurations with minimal issues other than a little pairing.

Does it really make the actual riding experience better than my "old" 10 speed drivetrains? Not really. Once extra gear across the same spread is nice, but not necessary. Shifting is easier, but a well-tuned drivetrain was never really a chore to actuate for me. To be honest, getting it dialed in took me much longer than on any mechanical groupset (to include ones with Yaw derailleurs), but I expect that might change with experience.

Eventually I'll move to 11 speed, 12 speed, or phase-plasma shifting. Or just buy an ebike. Who knows? As long as I have fun, it really doesn't matter how the gears change.

I keep looking at the Bianchi ebike... It looks nice, it is only pedal assist - and you don't have to use it or minimally... and I think it would be nice to exert the same output and go 30 mph solo and get in 90 miles in just a few hours. A chance to go farther and see more while still getting a workout. Totally different way to think about cycling for certain.

[Dave]

I think I have a 50/34 with a 12-32 on my Space Horse IIRC. It might be a 11-34 though.

I bought that for towing a trailer. That's a bike that weighs 27lbs and I was towing something like 80lbs with it.

That cassette block is super annoying to me in normal road riding. I take off from a stop light and I'm skipping 3 cogs at a time and then riding the 50 ring 90% of the time even when I'm out of shape.

On a go fast road bike intended for paved roads I can't see anything that low or lower making any sense. A 14-15lb carbon super bike with a 50/34 + 11-34 is nuts to me. That combo lets you go 6mph without having to get out of the saddle, that's a Mt. Washington hillclimb setup.

A 12-32 11 speed should be a straight block up to the 17. No reason to be skipping 3 cogs. If you're in the big ring need a lower gear, the 19 is not a big jump.

Who would even think that a 15 lb super bike should have such gearing? It's perfectly appropriate for old riders, beginners and old guys who ride steeply sloped routes, like me.

When you take off from a stop sign, you must be in the wrong gear to start with. It has the same gear ratios available as any other.

[benb]

When you take off from a stop sign, you must be in the wrong gear to start with. It has the same gear ratios available as any other.

The point is the gears are so low I spin out the gear I start in very quickly. If I just upshift one gear I'm still spun out in that gear.

If I start in anything like the first 3 gears I will get clipped in and within 1-2 seconds I'll upshift 3 gears. I'll pedal a few more times, then upshift 2-3 more cogs.

I could probably stop & start in the big ring.. but I'd be cross chained starting from a stop.

Again this is a weird example, those low gears are useful offroad or carrying a load.

There are all kinds of these super bike type things which don't offer any stock configurations with a 53/39 and we've got SRAM pushing rings even smaller than 50/34 and they're not marketing it for old guys and people towing trailers and touring and such. Nobody needs a $2k electronic shifting groupset for those kinds of uses.

[Mark McM]

That cassette block is super annoying to me in normal road riding. I take off from a stop light and I'm skipping 3 cogs at a time and then riding the 50 ring 90% of the time even when I'm out of shape.

I'm having trouble reconcile these two comments. If you have to jump multiple sprockets when changing speed, that implies closely spaced gear ratios; but if you can stay in the same chainring over a wide range of terrain, that implies widely spaced gear ratios.

I prefer fairly close spacing between gear ratios, so it is not uncommon that I shift 2, or sometimes 3, sprockets at a time (and often for several times) when rapidly accelerating from a stop. But that's not much of an issue with Campagnolo Ultra shifters, which allow multiple sprocket upshifts (2, 3, 4 or 5 sprockets at a time) with a single push of a lever.

[Mark McM]

The point is the gears are so low I spin out the gear I start in very quickly. If I just upshift one gear I'm still spun out in that gear.

If I start in anything like the first 3 gears I will get clipped in and within 1-2 seconds I'll upshift 3 gears. I'll pedal a few more times, then upshift 2-3 more cogs.

I could probably stop & start in the big ring.. but I'd be cross chained starting from a stop.

Then why do you down shift to your lowest gear when coming to a stop when you're are not carrying a load?

When using a wide range cassette on flat terrain, I'll often not bother changing to the small chainring when coming to a stop. It hasn't been a problem.

[Dekonick]

Arthritis might be a reason, yes for E! Until then....
FWIW, just changed my cables back to Campag cables on my Merckx with Record 10sp gruppo WOW, crisp butter shifts, great feedback, lovely would never need better!
Then went for a ride on my MOOTS RSL with 2018 Record 11sp I bought new, and prefer 10sp shifting for feedback (I’m old)...
This a great thread, the etap stuff is overwhelming, I would like to try it, but its overwhelming....
This is a great thread....did I already say that? > old...

I still use Campy 10. I don't plan on changing for mechanical shifting.

[joemull]

the sram AXS has a 46/33 - 10/33 that to me seems the perfect balance of road gearing and gravel gearing.

[weisan]

$$$$

[pdmtong]

I'm having trouble reconcile these two comments. If you have to jump multiple sprockets when changing speed, that implies closely spaced gear ratios; but if you can stay in the same chainring over a wide range of terrain, that implies widely spaced gear ratios.

the difference is in the age of the respective posters...

[zmalwo]

New stuff are always marked up. it might be the newest thing today. but if you want to keep that thing forever, when you look back at that thing 20 years from now previous generation stuff would just feel as old as the newest stuff today.

[DeBike]

Planned obsolescence is alive and well in the bicycle industry. I have 3 bikes that have "old" Shimano 9 speed and I think they work as well or better than much of the "latest and greatest." It is getting a little harder to find some things, but that is OK. I am getting up there in the years myself.

[dancinkozmo]

planned obsolescence is alive and well in the bicycle industry. I have 3 bikes that have "old" shimano 9 speed and i think they work as well or better than much of the "latest and greatest." it is getting a little harder to find some things, but that is ok. I am getting up there in the years myself.
+1 !!

[oldpotatoe]

This year I forayed into the Shimano world. All my road bikes are campy 10 or 11. I bought a Ultegra 8000 mechanical group from the classifieds here and put it on a really nice Ti bike, that I bought here. The 8000 stuff works really well but I've had a few hand issues throughout my life including a compound fracture of my left hand, several broken fingers, and the webbing between my thumb and forefinger sliced open, all in my 30's. Now I'm 54 and it's starting to bug me when I ride. Today is the first day I seriously thought about Di2. I have an easier time with campy and the thumb paddle.

Then EPS...easy..:) Use yer shimano 11s wheel/cogset..done-go ride.

[martl]

somewhat still on topic:
I've taken it easy on modern equipment the last couple of years, because i stopped competitive cycling and cared more for the more obscure corners of cycling - c&v, painting frames, learning to TIG-weld etc.
Now, two things happened:
1 my new landlord spotted my bike worshop and asked if i could help him fix his bike. I said sure. Well, it is an electric assisted one, and i found out even a seasoned hobby mech like myself can face completely new challenges :D even removing the rear wheel was an adventure...
2 also, i decided to upgrade my hardtail mtb with a new suspension fork and disk brakes. So i spent several hours reading up about disk brake tech, and then still would be humiliated by the bike shop clerk i talked to. DOT vs. mineral? There are now at least 4 different fork shaft norms? and 4 different QR standards? and 3 different disk caliper mount standards? What disk diameter makes sense with frame x, fork y and riding stlye z? ...oh boy i feel my age :D

[Black Dog]

Then EPS...easy..:) Use yer shimano 11s wheel/cogset..done-go ride.

It is amazing how people do not realize that EPS even exists or consider it. Never mind that it is every bit as good as the competitors and in some ways better.

[oldpotatoe]

It is amazing how people do not realize that EPS even exists or consider it. Never mind that it is every bit as good as the competitors and in some ways better.

Ayup and pricing very similar to shimano..in that Record EPS is about the same $ as SR mechanical..like Ultegra Di2 about the same $ as DA mechanical. MAP pricing...MO all over the map...:eek:

[NHAero]

Shimano guy here. 3x9 works great. That's what I still have on my Big Dummy, my tandem, and my wife's road bike. Her commuter is 3x8.

I switched to 2x11 on two drop bar bikes where I wanted hydro discs. No 3x option available. That equipment works well. Two bikes have the CX70 FD and work well - this was before the latest 11 speed Shimano appeared (R8000 and R9000). The cassette jumps aren't worse than the 9 speed because there are two more cogs.

I have Dura Ace 2x11 rim brake on the Firefly, it's a pure road bike and I wouldn't have put a triple on it in any case. The 11 speed Ultegra cassette 11-34 gives me 2T jumps all the way from the 13 to the 27, I think it's a perfect cassette for my riding. I swapped the 11T for a 12T because I actually use the 12T and never used the 11T, so it's a 12-34. I don't need a corn cob cassette - others do.

That left me with only one drop bar bike with the original barcons and 3x9, and I decided to switch that, my old Bob Jackson, to STI also, and I went with 3x10 because the stuff didn't cost more than 3x9 and was actually more available. I'm using a 9 speed XTR RD and that bike shifts fine. Shifters are 105.

It's hard for me to sense the functional difference between 105, Ultegra, and DA, but I don't claim to be overly sensitive. The increased cost buys fewer grams as far as i can see, and perhaps less durability. At this point, I ride about 3,000 miles annually, split across a number of bikes, so durability isn't a biggie - chains and tires are all I'm changing. I did wear out the aluminum big cog on my MTB SRAM 10-42, but that's an easy aftermarket fix. And for all the SRAM bashing here, that 1x11 is the most reliable, least fussy shifting of all my bikes, and that's after 4 years of harder use than any other of my bikes.

No electronic shifting yet, but not from any Luddite stance - don't see the need personally and I don't want to spend the additional $$$.

Planned obsolescence is alive and well in the bicycle industry. I have 3 bikes that have "old" Shimano 9 speed and I think they work as well or better than much of the "latest and greatest." It is getting a little harder to find some things, but that is OK. I am getting up there in the years myself.

[sonicCows]

I was helping a friend purchase their first bicycle and we considered used and new. It gave me some real soul-searching on the standards for what we consider to be acceptable componentry. Did it make sense for me to advocate for a new rider to have 11sp 105 when my fancy bikes were 10sp Force, or when my commuter had 8sp Sora? For someone who wasn't going to race, 3 fewer cogs in the rear was far less important than the overall range. Eventually our requirements came down to the items most noticeable: carbon fork, fat tires, discs. Upgrades to the cockpit, wheels, and brakes would come before the groupset, unless a great deal is to be had. New Sora and Tiagra work very well, probably as good as you remember 7700 or 6600 being.

Only a few years ago these group sets could be had fairly cheap out of the UK. Did they crack down on that?

Yes, the groups are still cheaper overseas, but Sram, Shimano, DT, etc. have started enforcing retailer shipping limitations to the US so no more Ribble, bike24, PBK, and the like. You can still import Shimano groupsets from China, on AliExpress just be specific in the search terms (eg "R7020"). Shipping seems to take forever though.

[KidWok]

My bike equipment preferences peak at 2005-2008. I've played with the latest and I don't think it's the greatest. More than anything, I'm annoyed by the forced obsolescence by the bike industry that has accelerated in the last decade, especially with all the different standards for BB, HS, axle, brake, number of gears, etc. I think we reached the point a long time ago where material science was maximized and most "innovations" move sideways more than they move forward.

There are a couple of examples where the industry just goes in circles. Each year is a stiffer frameset. Stiffer framesets get uncomfortable so now people want bigger tires. Might as well be back on a noodle steel frame with skinny tires. The other example is carbon rims. Everyone wants something lighter, but the braking isn't so great. So now we "need" disc brakes. Which makes the bike heavier. I'm sure there are more.

Tai

[Kirk007]

I think latest and greatest provides some interesting opportunities if you know what you want and/or how latest and greatest may make your riding more fun vs getting sucked into the continual upgrade cycle. What I dislike the most is the planned obsolescence/lack of backwards compatibility

To wit: I think the latest round of Shimano 11 speed (9100, 8000) is the best shifting mechanical group I've ever used (haven't tried Campy 12 and won't as the downshift levers don't play nicely with my arthritic thumbs, but I've heard great things about it). I like that you can interchange 11 speed drivetrains from all manufacturers. With multiple bikes, this is a big reason to pass on 12 speed. I think electronic is nice, not essential but certainly not something to hate on. I like having wider range cassettes for casual riding and particularly climbing, whether it is one of the frequent 16-20% short pitches in my neighborhood or a 25km climb in the Alps. I think disc braking is a big improvement for wet winter riding. All nonessential but nice to have in the appropriate circumstance.

I think the pricing of the latest and greatest though - whether the latest plastic wonder bike or latest high end group or must have carbon wheels - is freakin' insane. A decade ago you really had to try to spend more than 5-7k on a top of the line bike (unless you bought a Meivici) but now 7k+ for a frame, $3-5K for top shelf grouppo, $2-5K for fancy carbon wheels, $300 for a carbon handlebar.... And bottom line does it improve the ride experience? Not really. Todays 15k bike is not twice as good as 2008's $7500 bike.

[oldpotatoe]

Todays 15k bike is not twice as good as 2008's $7500 bike.

Or 4 times better than the $3700 1998 bike..hasn't really been anything that 'makes the ride better' since lever mounted shifting, clipless pedals and road triples(which have disappeared)....and that stuff came out in the mid to late 80s..BUT, the bike market has been flat for a long time. If one maker's sales go up 2%, somebody else's goes down 2%..so it's 'innovate or die', even if that 'innovation' is sideways, not forward, better..AND remember lighter isn't better, it's just lighter.

[Dekonick]

Or 4 times better than the $3700 1998 bike..hasn't really been anything that 'makes the ride better' since lever mounted shifting, clipless pedals and road triples(which have disappeared)....and that stuff came out in the mid to late 80s..BUT, the bike market has been flat for a long time. If one maker's sales go up 2%, somebody else's goes down 2%..so it's 'innovate or die', even if that 'innovation' is sideways, not forward, better..AND remember lighter isn't better, it's just lighter.

This is so true. I would add that heart rate monitors and power meters have changed the game.

Otherwise, the bikes from the 90's are pretty damn good.

[rounder]

Mechanical for me.

I rode in the Salisbury Seagull ride this weekend. The coolest bike I saw was a 1979 Serotta with Campy record downtube shifters. The guy said that he bought it new (and it was originally built for the usa amateur champion who did not show up to claim it) and had it repainted with original Serotta decals last year. The bike was really pretty.

There were lots of cool bikes there, but I was happy riding my K. Bedford bike with (now old school) 11-speed chorus and caliper brakes.

[Ronsonic]

This is so true. I would add that heart rate monitors and power meters have changed the game.

Otherwise, the bikes from the 90's are pretty damn good.

For actual racers, they have. For most of us, well I'm in line to order the BikeSnob power meter, the one that just flashes "You Suck."

My Strava times. Strava times tell me two things, how frisky I was feeling that day and which way the wind was blowing. Don't need GPS for that.

To be fair, GPS mapping and aerial photo ride planning are a big deal. Just not part of a bike.

[oldpotatoe]

For actual racers, they have. For most of us, well I'm in line to order the BikeSnob power meter, the one that just flashes "You Suck."

My Strava times. Strava times tell me two things, how frisky I was feeling that day and which way the wind was blowing. Don't need GPS for that.

To be fair, GPS mapping and aerial photo ride planning are a big deal. Just not part of a bike.

Ha! Funny..'way back when', geez, like 20 years ago..I had one of those Avocet computers..that gave average speed, stopped when ya stopped..all that. I had a ride where I felt like Eddy hisself..fast, smooth, beeeyootiful day..GREAT ride..then checked the average speed..like 13.5 MPH..took that thing off, never had once since...have a watch..what time is it, type watch..nuthin more.
:)

[mcteague]

Ha! Funny..'way back when', geez, like 20 years ago..I had one of those Avocet computers..that gave average speed, stopped when ya stopped..all that. I had a ride where I felt like Eddy hisself..fast, smooth, beeeyootiful day..GREAT ride..then checked the average speed..like 13.5 MPH..took that thing off, never had once since...have a watch..what time is it, type watch..nuthin more.
:)

I have often been temped to remove the thing. A few times, when the battery died, I recall having a more enjoyable ride. However, with the Wahoo Bolt, I do enjoy seeing the grade of hills and checking out the route on RideWithGPS. Plus, I never wear a watch and do like to know the time.

As for tech, I really like the look of mid-depth carbon wheels but stick with aluminum. I don't race and doubt the aero advantage would be much help on the hilly terrain around here.

Tim