Another Kogswell P/R build

[palincss]

Ed Braley (a name you might recall in the context of 650B conversions) just posted pix of his newly built-up Kogswell P/R over on flickr. The link to the collection of photos of his P/R build is http://www.flickr.com/photos/25373440@N00/328309110/in/set-72157594430169120/
I think it's extremely tastefully done - could almost be one of dbrk's bikes, except that it's too small...

[manet]

sweet

[gt6267a]

this style is not my style, but they are growing on me. one thing about the kogswell, it seems funny to see a non-quill stem on these bikes and doubly funny that it's not chrome / silver.

[rpm]

Oh, that is so nice. In the same vein, check out this one posted on Cyclofiend:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2006/cc200-adamalpern1106.html


It's a different interpretation that shows the "Porteur" side of the Kogswell

[billrick]

Another great bike, but I have to say that it is Ed's Trek Pilot conversion that is growing on me! He has posted a few reports on the i-BOB or 650B e-mail group that really had me thinking. I know he recently registered here - hope he will stop in and share his findings. I have a set of 650B wheels that will be looking for a frame in the next year or so.

:)

[palincss]

this style is not my style, but they are growing on me. one thing about the kogswell, it seems funny to see a non-quill stem on these bikes and doubly funny that it's not chrome / silver.

I'm not a fan of black components myself, but I think in this case Ed has pulled it off brilliantly. I think the gray frame color helps pull it all together - and certainly the gray Berthoud bags don't hurt, either.

As for the look of a threadless stem on a bike like this, it seems far less strange to me now that I've seen Peter Weigle doing it. I guess for those more attuned to racing than randonneuring frames, substitute Richard Sachs. Masterpieces in both cases, IMO, and wonderful examples of how threadless stems can harmonize with the best in classical style.

[sg8357]

this style is not my style, but they are growing on me. one thing about the kogswell, it seems funny to see a non-quill stem on these bikes and doubly funny that it's not chrome / silver.

In the Rene Herse line, clamp on stems were first, quill stems were a later innovation. The clamp on stems were milled from bar stock, expensive and slow to make. Nice lookin' fork, thin blades, pleasing curve.

Scott G.

[big shanty]

The build is magnificent, the frame itself ho-hum.

[rpm]

Another great bike, but I have to say that it is Ed's Trek Pilot conversion that is growing on me!

:)

Actually, I think conversions may be cooler than new purpose-built 650b's. Full-on race bikes become obsolete very quickly--your old 17 lb bike becomes a tank when you get the latest 15 lb bike. The beauty of 650b is that you can take a bike like that and turn it into a light and versatile cruiser or brevet bike.

Given the wide range of 700c tires, there's really little reason to go 650b on a new bike unless your frame size is quite small. But there are lots of reasons to convert a little used crit bike (which is what I'm doing for my second conversion this winter)

[dbrk]

I really like the color, the way it holds up the kustard decals and the subtle black outline, and the over all balance of the bike; I like the mix of old and new and I think the black bits are a good match for the black decal outline---it's a subtle thing, that blends right; and I really like the way traditional cyclosportif values have been achieved with remarkable economy. I'm not much of a city biker (I live in the country) and I'm not much of a cyclo-schlepper (and don't prefer heavy loads, front loads, etc), but I do love long rides on gravel roads with a go anywhere style of bicycle. There is so much to add to cycling once you think about more than skinny tire only modern road bikes---though I've room in my heart for those too. Kogswell is the best value in this style of cycling currently available...by a long shot. I would love the bike more if the frame had lugs
but I understand why it doesn't and that's good with me!

dbrk

And not that it's much ado but I'll see you folks after January 9th when we return from India. Take Care! Have a safe and happy New Year! I'll be looking to bring home an Indian Hero Cycle! Love those rod brakes! See ya!

[palincss]

Actually, I think conversions may be cooler than new purpose-built 650b's. Full-on race bikes become obsolete very quickly--your old 17 lb bike becomes a tank when you get the latest 15 lb bike. The beauty of 650b is that you can take a bike like that and turn it into a light and versatile cruiser or brevet bike.

Given the wide range of 700c tires, there's really little reason to go 650b on a new bike unless your frame size is quite small. But there are lots of reasons to convert a little used crit bike (which is what I'm doing for my second conversion this winter)

My new P/R will be replacing a wide-tired 700C touring bike as my commuter and touring bike, and that will put me entirely out of the wide 700 game.

I've got almost 6,000 miles on my Saluki now, and around 400 on the Kogswell, plus around 20,000 miles on the bike I'm taking out of service. I think there's plenty of reason to get a purpose-built 650B bike. However, I entirely agree with you about the value/virtue of conversions.

[Smiley]

Thanks Steve for sharing these great pix's. Funny the bags and racks cost more the the frame and fork in this case :)

[whippettanker]

Kogswell is the best value in this style of cycling currently available...by a long shot. I would love the bike more if the frame had lugs
but I understand why it doesn't and that's good with me!

dbrk


Kogswell will be taking orders soon on a lugged version of the P/R. Everything about that model is designed to save weight: 'standard' tubes, light gauges, tiny lugs. Just the thing for those who like low-mass steel.

http://kogswell.com/images/B-2.gif

http://kogswell.com/images/B-0.gif

[Smiley]

where's the head tube extension Matt , nice job really on the P/R .

[Rapid Tourist]

I'm intrigued by the Trek. How did he get full fenders on a road bike with carbon stays and a carbon fork? I'm guessing he trimmed the fenders down to size. Any thoughts? Thanks, Steve.

[Smiley]

I'm intrigued by the Trek. How did he get full fenders on a road bike with carbon stays and a carbon fork? I'm guessing he trimmed the fenders down to size. Any thoughts? Thanks, Steve.
I think he used 650 wheels and that allowed for the clearances needed along with Long reach brakes shown. Don't get any crazy ideas Tourist :)

[Ray]

I'm intrigued by the Trek. How did he get full fenders on a road bike with carbon stays and a carbon fork? I'm guessing he trimmed the fenders down to size. Any thoughts? Thanks, Steve.
I think that particular Trek (Pilot) is made for somewhat more 'practical' cycling than their racing bikes, so it probably had somewhat better clearance to begin with. But one of the cool things about 650b conversions is that it creates more clearance on bikes that didn't have it to begin with by using a smaller diameter wheel and thus moving everything down/back to an area of the fork/chainstays where there's already more clearance. I converted an old road bike that didn't have much clearance and the fatter tires and fenders fit without problems.

-Ray

[rpm]

Kogswell will be taking orders soon on a lugged version of the P/R. Everything about that model is designed to save weight: 'standard' tubes, light gauges, tiny lugs. Just the thing for those who like low-mass steel.

Well now, things just keep getting better and better for non-racing cyclists. I note that Chris of Velo-Orange has not yet tooted his horn about the fact that this new randonneuse is in production. So here's a toot:

http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2006/12/velo-orange-randonneuse-frame-1.html

[bfd]

Does anyone know if Matt G is still offering lugged steel 700c framesets? I'm not the whole 650B thing, but wouldn't mind a 700c frame? Thanks!

[edbraley]

I've been very busy caring for sick children, and finishing my family's Christmas preparations, so please pardon my late response to the comments and questions about these two bikes.

Thanks for the compliments on the bike builds, I'm very pleased with the results for both of these very different machines.

The Trek Pilot 650B conversion was a simple, out-of-the-box, wheel and brake swap. We made no modifications to the bike at all. It took longer to tweak the fenders than to get it rolling on the 650B wheels, and that's only because I'm really fussy about getting an even fender line and trimming the stay lengths.

The Trek Pilot was designed as a high-performance 700C sport bike with room for larger tires and fenders. But in the stock 700C configuration the bike certainly won't fit a 38mm 700C tire, and it would be considerably compromised even if it could. The bottom bracket would be very high, probably over 285mm, and those big 700C tires would be very heavy and slow to accelerate. If you've ever ridden on 38mm 700C tires then you know what I'm talking about.

However with the 650x38B tires, which measure a true 36mm-37mm, the bottom bracket sits at 264mm-265mm, and that's almost exactly the old racing standard of 267mm, which is nearly perfect. And there is still room to fit 45mm SKS fenders on the bike, and there is still no toe clip overlap. And the bike will still accelerate quickly, it is still fast, and it handles superbly. It's easy to ride at any speed, even hands-off. It goes dead-straight when you jump on it, and it'll track true across harsh transitions between paved and gravel surfaces. That rigid aluminum frame with the carbon fork and seat stays works very well with those big puffy tires. They compliment one another. There is no need for buzz killers, gel inserts, suspension this or thats anywhere. It's all about the big tires on the slightly smaller wheel with nearly the same resultant diameter as a skinny-tire 700C setup.

I've ridden that Trek several times over the last week, and each time I've had it out, I come home with a stronger appreciation for what it can do. That bike rides like a good steel frame on quality 24mm tubular tires. I've ridden the machine on Portland's cobblestone streets at speed and it's very smooth, highly maneuverable, and very stable. No hands on dirt: No sweat. Local bike shop guys have ridden it, and they're telling me the same thing.

And the kicker, is that I can swap the brake calipers and wheels in an instant, and put it right back to 700C. But I don't plan to do that anytime soon because I'm not racing it, and I'm having way too much fun riding it places that I'd never be able to go on those 700C wheels. It will be perfect for our New England roads this Spring when the pavement is all sandy and beat-up from the damage created in Winter. Maybe you SoCal guys can't relate, but this is what cycling is all about up here in the Northern climes: bad roads.

And now, about that Kogswell: It's my interpretation of a French style randonneuse built on Matthew Grimm's P/R frameset. The machine was designed to be configurable for either drop bars, or some type of sweep or North Road bend handlebar. I have it configured with drops, but I used a 25.4 stem and bar, and I have an On*One Mary bar setup with Dia-Compe SS5 levers that will swap right in. So I can try it either way. I tend to prefer drops for any distance, however, and that's what's on the bike now.

The P/R has a relatively lightweight tubeset, and a sturdy front end, so it has the attractive qualities of being both lively and accurate. I just finished the bike two days ago. I haven't ridden it any appreciable distance yet, so I can't give a detailed review, but it felt very good on the initial test ride.

The front-end geometry of the P/R was designed to carry a loaded handlebar bag with minimal disruption to the handling. I have the 40mm trail fork, which is good for both loaded and unloaded riding, and that's my intended use.

My P/R was built with a few parts that would be difficult, if not almost impossible to find; such as that PX crankset, and the vintage NOS brakes, and levers. But there are good alternatives, and they're easy to source.

Yes the bags were somewhat expensive, but they were originally bought for another bike, and with the additional custom decaleur body on the P/R I can switch them between the two bikes on a whim. The rest of the parts aren't anything all that special or expensive, they just work well on that P/R. Even those Honjo fenders are less than $100, and personally, I think they make the bike. The P/R is a good quality 650B "Country Bike" at an attractive price, and you can build it anyway you want.

There's a lot of thrashing going on about 650B wheeled bikes, and I think it's entertaining, actually. People will go out and slap down hundreds of dollars for a carbon handlebar, a fancy saddle, or some new STI controls, and they still have the same bike with the same capabilities. But put that cash into a 650B wheelset and some brake calipers, and you can transform some bikes into versatile and comfortable machines which are well suited for the way that many people actually ride their bikes, or would like to ride them. That's just my opinion, and I'm sure that not everyone will agree. But most people who have actually ridden 650B bikes will concur.

I'm enjoying these 650B wheeled bikes. I have been enjoying 650B bikes for over two years, now. While some people have been thrashing this whole 650B thing about, there are other people who are also out enjoying them. They're really fun to ride! What's wrong with that? You don't even have to buy a dedicated 650B frame or bike to enjoy 650B wheels. The conversion bikes can be amazingly good. The older steel bikes that I've converted are a blast to ride! And that Trek Pilot 2.1 is simply phenominal on 650B wheels.

And there are more 650B-convertible production bikes waiting to be discovered. We will find them. I am certain that there is at least one disc-brake 700C production machine which would be suitable for 650B conversion. And that one will be a simple wheel-swap conversion, just as simple as can be. And it will go back to 700C from 650B just as easily.

I'll be working with the folks up at Bath Cycle and Ski, the www.Bikeman.com site where I've just started The 650Blog. We're going to have some fun! Check it out sometime.

Best Regards, and Happy Holidays to all,

Ed.

[sc53]

Hey Ed, is that disc-brake 700c bike you're thinking of the Trek Portland by any chance? Seeing what you did to your Pilot made me think of my Portland. It already has fenders and Roly Poly's on it, I'm sure there's plenty of room for even fatter tires.

[edbraley]

I think that the bottom bracket height on the Trek Portland will be too low with 650B wheels. The Trek specs list it at 264mm-266mm with a 28mm tire on the 700C wheelset. So it would go down to somewhere around 254mm on 650x38B. You'd probably strike a pedal hard at that height.

If you have the bike, I'd be curious to know what actual measurement you get for the bottom bracket height. If you get a chance sometime, put the bike straight up on level flooring, and measure from the floor to the center of the bottom bracket spindle.

Ed.

[Ray]

I think that the bottom bracket height on the Trek Portland will be too low with 650B wheels. The Trek specs list it at 264mm-266mm with a 28mm tire on the 700C wheelset. So it would go down to somewhere around 254mm on 650x38B. You'd probably strike a pedal hard at that height.

If you have the bike, I'd be curious to know what actual measurement you get for the bottom bracket height. If you get a chance sometime, put the bike straight up on level flooring, and measure from the floor to the center of the bottom bracket spindle.

Ed.
Ed,

I know this stuff has been covered extensively elsewhere - I've even seen it when I was industrious enough to look - but what would you say is the most BB drop that will work with 650b (assuming 37-38mm tires) and what is the range of brake reach that the new Grant-designed calipers will work with?

I did a 650b conversion a couple of years ago and didn't particularly like it, but it was on a frame I wasn't crazy about to begin with. I probably wouldn't own a dedicated 650b bike, but switching back and forth between 650b and 700c would be so easy with the new caliper brakes that having a set of wheels and brakes around to do the occasional switchover sounds kind of appealing. But if you have a bike that's spec-ed for long reach brakes at something close to their 57mm max, will the new calipers still reach the rim of a 650b? And if the bb drop is already around 80mm, is that likely too low?

Thanks much,

-Ray

[Smiley]

U da Man Ed , I like having you and dbrk here so stick around pal. I'd also like a ride report on your P/R , having a Kogswell G 58 now , I can tell u all that Matt Grimm sells alot of well thought out bike for the money. Would not sell my Kogswell for anything.

Andrew has my request into Serotta for a Ti coupler 650 B bike. We'll see how far the chain that one goes :)

[Ray]

Andrew has my request into Serotta for a Ti coupler 650 B bike. We'll see how far the chain that one goes :)
Smiley - you probably already have one in your Unicasi. Well, in steel anyway, but it would be easy in ti also. Anything with just a little bit more clearance in Rapid Tour geo would probably make a nifty 650b conversion, either part time or full time. All you have to do is swap wheels and brakes and you're good to go.

-Ray

[edbraley]

Good questions, Ray, let me try to answer them. It'll be another long-winded reply, I'm afraid...

Guys that know more about bikes than I do design frames using bottom bracket drop figures which will result in a bottom bracket height that they feel is relatively safe for the tires, crank arm lengths, and pedals which fall within the ranges that they expect to be used on the finished bicycle. And they have a sense for how the bike will handle when the other geometric factors are all combined, too.

Having stated these qualifiers, I can tell you that the conversions I've done using 650x38B Panaracer and Mitsuboshi tires, and riding 170mm-172.5mm crank arms with clipless pedals, all have bottom bracket heights in the range from about 260mm to 275mm. I feel comfortable riding these machines, and I'm cautious to avoid pedal strike on the lower bikes. My Heron Road frame has a drop of 72mm, and that one sits at 262mm. So, my answer to you is that 72mm is probably about as low as you should go with the 38mm tires. If you want to run the smaller tires, or longer crank arms, or wide pedals, then subtract a corresponding amount from the bottom bracket drop figure. In any case, a frame with an 80mm drop is too low for 650B conversion, in my opinion.

The new Tektro/Silver R-556 dual pivot brake caliper is designed to reach 73mm. I filed the pad slots in the stirrups of the rear caliper on my Trek 1200c to get it down a couple of milimeters further, and I put one of the four mounting spacers under each pad to keep the arms parallel to the rims at the point which the pad contacts the braking surface. Otherwise, the brake caliper begins to close upward, thereby reducing the reach, putting the pad into the tire.

When you convert a bike from 700C wheels to 650B wheels the brakes need to reach down 19mm further. If your 700C brake reach requirement is 55mm or less, you can probably make the R-556 caliper work. And then there's the whole nutted/allen attachment consideration, for bikes that have hex nut brakes. But that's a topic for another reply ;-)

Finally, a 650B conversion is not a panacea. if you don't care for the way a bike handles to begin with, then it probably won't become a favorite ride with 650B wheels. For example, I don't like bikes with slack head angles, I can't stand the wheel flop. And they're no better on 650B wheels. But the fact that putting 650B wheels on a bike does not significantly alter the machine's characteristics works favorably in almost every case.

Ed.

[Ray]

Having stated these qualifiers, I can tell you that the conversions I've done using 650x38B Panaracer and Mitsuboshi tires, and riding 170mm-172.5mm crank arms with clipless pedals, all have bottom bracket heights in the range from about 260mm to 275mm. I feel comfortable riding these machines, and I'm cautious to avoid pedal strike on the lower bikes. My Heron Road frame has a drop of 72mm, and that one sits at 262mm. So, my answer to you is that 72mm is probably about as low as you should go with the 38mm tires. If you want to run the smaller tires, or longer crank arms, or wide pedals, then subtract a corresponding amount from the bottom bracket drop figure. In any case, a frame with an 80mm drop is too low for 650B conversion, in my opinion.

Kind of what I figured. I don't have any candidates at the moment and probably won't in the near future. My two current road frames and my fixie (a Rambouillet) all have bb drop at 77mm or more and all use long reach brakes set up for pretty close to their 57mm max reach. So the downside of buying bikes designed for versatility is that they're not versatile enough for a 650b conversion :) - who'da thunk?

I should have tried it on my RB-1 while I still had it, but I liked that bike too much with skinny tires to mess with it. And that was before the long calipers were available, so I'd have had to add cable hangers and mess with centerpulls, which was more hassle than I wanted to deal with.

-Ray

[rpm]

Hey Ed, glad to have you aboard! You've already increased my knowledge about 650b.

Ron

[whippettanker]

Kind of what I figured. I don't have any candidates at the moment and probably won't in the near future. My two current road frames and my fixie (a Rambouillet) all have bb drop at 77mm or more and all use long reach brakes set up for pretty close to their 57mm max reach. So the downside of buying bikes designed for versatility is that they're not versatile enough for a 650b conversion :) - who'da thunk?

I should have tried it on my RB-1 while I still had it, but I liked that bike too much with skinny tires to mess with it. And that was before the long calipers were available, so I'd have had to add cable hangers and mess with centerpulls, which was more hassle than I wanted to deal with.

-Ray

The best candidates for conversion, ATMO, are 1980's Japanese road racing frames. They have high bottom brackets and are set up for short reach brakes. So when you put 650B in them and use the Tektro R556 brakes (that were designed for folding bikes) it all works perfectly. The only way to improve on that is to get a P/R fork so that you'll have a proper amount of fork offset and fender mounts for the front. You can use Blackburn adapters on the back to mount fender.

Something like a Specialized Allez. You'll have to spread the dropouts a bit, but they're nice frames so it's worth it. Add new powder and Bob's your uncle. The guys are Spectrum can even air-brush the lettering back onto the down tube. That's wild.

Or just buy a P/R frameset and get all the other goodies like threaded fender mounts and canti posts and rack mounts, etc, etc.

[Ray]

The best candidates for conversion, ATMO, are 1980's Japanese road racing frames. They have high bottom brackets and short reach brakes and when you put 650B in them, it all works perfectly. The only way to improve on them is to get a P/R fork and so that you'll have a proper amount of fork offset and fender mounts for the front. You can use Blackburn adapters on the back to mount fender.
That's what I converted a couple of years ago - it was a mid-80s Bianchi Limited, one of their Japanese models. 65mm of bb drop, well placed brakes, and enough clearance. I didn't really like it, but I didn't like it much before the conversion either, except as a fixed gear, which is how it spent most of its life.

-Ray

[whippettanker]

That's what I converted a couple of years ago - it was a mid-80s Bianchi Limited, one of their Japanese models. 65mm of bb drop, well placed brakes, and enough clearance. I didn't really like it, but I didn't like it much before the conversion either, except as a fixed gear, which is how it spent most of its life.

-Ray

Bianchis tend to be a bit on the... modest side, quality wise.

But you totally had the right idea.

What was it about that bike that you didn't like?

[Ray]

Bianchis tend to be a bit on the... modest side, quality wise.

But you totally had the right idea.

What was it about that bike that you didn't like?
I'm not even sure I could put it into words. I rode it as a geared bike for a while before fixifying it and I just never clicked with it. It wasn't exactly twitchy, but the handling just wasn't confidence inspiring at all. Maybe it was the high bb, maybe the weight distribution - dunno. I never knew what the geometry was for that frame, so I couldn't even guess based on what I knew about the geometries of frames I liked (a dangerous game in the hands of an amatuer to begin with). It was fine as a fixie for several years, though, although I like the Rambouillet I'm currently riding fixed a whole lot more.

And then with 650b, I had the same reaction I had when it was built as a road bike with skinny 700c tires, except now it also felt like riding in molasses along with the not-great handling.

You win some, you lose some. I believe that one goes in the "L" column :cool:

-Ray