Best $20-25k Grand Touring car

[VTCaraco]

Good friend was at the house the other day bemoaning his Corvette. Not positive what model it is, but it's one of the faster, more-tuned versions.

He was frustrated that it seems to ALWAYS have something wrong with it. Local shop has it now and he's on the hook for about $4500 for a new rear differential and a few other repairs. His order to the shop manager was to go through the WHOLE car and make sure that he could go a year with only routine maintenance. So the repairs should be comprehensive.


Ultimately, he said that he ended up with more of a track car than he had in mind and that he wishes he had more of a Grand Touring style vehicle....2-door with a good power-to-weight ratio, but that allows you to enjoy the sound system and the ride at cruising speed rather than the throaty engine sound.


I told him to go shopping...that it doesn't make a lot of sense to have a $25k toy that you're not really enjoying. And that I imagined there was someone out there that wanted what he had...especially in the state of repair that it should now be in.

I'm consistently impressed with the depth of collective knowledge on this forum. What would you recommend he consider?

I suggested he stop at the Porsche, Audi, BMW and Mercedes shop and try things like a Cayman, S5, and others. I know he's not in the ballpark for NEW, but second-hand seems viable.
I'm not sure whether/which would likely be maintenance headaches, but I figured this group might have some first-hand knowledge that I could pass along.

[eddief]

fast enough, quiet enough, handle enough, room enough, dollar enough , practical enough. what is a grand touring car?

oh you said 2 door. sorry.

Veloster N = 2.5 doors.

https://www.hyundaiusa.com/veloster-n

i personally would like to drive a Stinger.

[Ralph]

Sounds like he bought a modified messed up Corvette. A stock version with base engine in good condition w/b just the kind of car you describe.

[FriarQuade]

The answer is always Miata.

[C40_guy]

You're on the right track, so to speak.

2009 Cayman would fit within his budget, and has important mechanical and cosmetic updates. Maintenance costs can be high, particularly if he doesn't have a very good private mechanic.

In fact, I'd start with the mechanic question... is there a specialty indie mechanic within 30 miles of where this guy lives?

Whatever that guy knows best, that's what I'd go with...

Cayman, Audi S5, BMW...

Lots of good forums out there to help him focus on years/equipment/etc... and he should be ready to travel for the right car. A good Pre Purchase Inspection will be mandatory.

[jamesdak]

The answer is always Miata.

I so agree!

https://pbase.com/jhuddle/image/157384227.jpg


I foolishly sold my Miata for this C5 Z06 and while the vette was trouble free for me it was just never close to as fun as the Miata.

https://pbase.com/jhuddle/image/165554853.jpg

When I had enough of that silliness I went for MK VII GTI. Fun, reliable, economical and a car I never could sit in comfortably.

https://pbase.com/jhuddle/image/166736861.jpg

So traded it in for this. Takes the curves about as well as the Miata, almost as fast as the Vette, better than the GTI in everyway, and you can get pretty much the same car in a two door version.

https://pbase.com/jhuddle/image/169251654.jpg

All that said, the answer is always Miata. No other car makes you grin like a drunk fool each time you drive it.

https://pbase.com/jhuddle/image/157384235.jpg

[Bentley]

Did he buy it new?

If he bought it used it’s a crap shoot. There are at least two types of Corvette owners, one that can afford the car and the required maintenance, the second can barely afford the car. Unlike BMW/Mercedes/Porsche, where you can hardly sell it used without all the service records, Corvettes slip by.

Then the driver, there are the older drivers that drive them carefully, the younger ones, not so careful.

If he bought used, he basically bought a project, unless he got it from someone that could afford the car and the maintenance and did not abuse it on the road.



Good friend was at the house the other day bemoaning his Corvette. Not positive what model it is, but it's one of the faster, more-tuned versions.

He was frustrated that it seems to ALWAYS have something wrong with it. Local shop has it now and he's on the hook for about $4500 for a new rear differential and a few other repairs. His order to the shop manager was to go through the WHOLE car and make sure that he could go a year with only routine maintenance. So the repairs should be comprehensive.


Ultimately, he said that he ended up with more of a track car than he had in mind and that he wishes he had more of a Grand Touring style vehicle....2-door with a good power-to-weight ratio, but that allows you to enjoy the sound system and the ride at cruising speed rather than the throaty engine sound.


I told him to go shopping...that it doesn't make a lot of sense to have a $25k toy that you're not really enjoying. And that I imagined there was someone out there that wanted what he had...especially in the state of repair that it should now be in.

I'm consistently impressed with the depth of collective knowledge on this forum. What would you recommend he consider?

I suggested he stop at the Porsche, Audi, BMW and Mercedes shop and try things like a Cayman, S5, and others. I know he's not in the ballpark for NEW, but second-hand seems viable.
I'm not sure whether/which would likely be maintenance headaches, but I figured this group might have some first-hand knowledge that I could pass along.

[VTCaraco]

Did he buy it new?

No.

If he bought used, he basically bought a project, unless he got it from someone that could afford the car and the maintenance and did not abuse it on the road.

I think you hit the nail on the head...whether it wasn't maintained correctly or it was hammered on, it's pretty clear that he bought a problem-vehicle.

I mean, the differential just needed to be replaced. That, alone, suggests that something was amiss....


His hope is that it's now repaired.
But even if that's the case, it's still more aggressively oriented than what he'd really like.

[p nut]

He wants a “Grand Touring” car. Many of the suggestions don’t seem to fit that category. GT is typically a lux coupe for long distance driving. Think Herse rando bike, not a Spec Tarmac or Super Six.

I would suggest trying out an Infiniti coupe (older G37 or newer Q). BMW or Audi going for $25k may be coming up on a lot of maintenance trips to the dealer.

[Tickdoc]

C’mon guys, a used Bentley coupe is the obvious answer here:)

I vote used Lexus coupe for reals.

[Gummee]

There really isn't anything that'll eat miles like a Benz.

It'll cost you $$ to maintain one tho.

M

[kiwisimon]

Lexus Coupe.

[Nomadmax]

If someone couldn't afford a vehicle when it was new, they can't afford it when it starts needing things. At best, this person better be very mechanically inclined, have a lift and more tools than the average person has had in their entire lives. Even then, they better be willing to devote the time and effort it takes to keep said vehicle in turn key condition.

Paying someone to do even routine jobs on a Corvette or a Euro car? You better be made of money, in which case, just buy a new one with a warranty. It'd be cheaper in the long run for your friend to lease a car he can't afford, drive it a few years and turn it in. That loss will be significantly less than trying to own something he couldn't afford to keep running and sold at a fire sale after it bled him dry.

[soulspinner]

C’mon guys, a used Bentley coupe is the obvious answer here:)

I vote used Lexus coupe for reals.

Ya

[Ralph]

If someone couldn't afford a vehicle when it was new, they can't afford it when it starts needing things. At best, this person better be very mechanically inclined, have a lift and more tools than the average person has had in their entire lives. Even then, they better be willing to devote the time and effort it takes to keep said vehicle in turn key condition.

Paying someone to do even routine jobs on a Corvette or a Euro car? You better be made of money, in which case, just buy a new one with a warranty. It'd be cheaper in the long run for your friend to lease a car he can't afford, drive it a few years and turn it in. That loss will be significantly less than trying to own something he couldn't afford to keep running and sold at a fire sale after it bled him dry.

This is what I think also. Sometimes new is cheaper. Everything is new....tires, suspension, transmission, etc. have warranty. If you can't afford new....maybe you can't afford what you are drooling over. People get rid of vehicles for a reason, and they wind up on the used car lots. Otherwise hope you are a good mechanic, have a lift and tools, and time and interest to work on your vehicle.

[djg]

He wants a “Grand Touring” car. Many of the suggestions don’t seem to fit that category. GT is typically a lux coupe for long distance driving. Think Herse rando bike, not a Spec Tarmac or Super Six.

I would suggest trying out an Infiniti coupe (older G37 or newer Q). BMW or Audi going for $25k may be coming up on a lot of maintenance trips to the dealer.

25k can buy a 3-series bimmer with relatively low miles, good service record, and a supplemental warranty -- or a 4-series in more recent years, for the coupe. I don't know about "a lot" of maintenance trips to the dealer or anyone else -- not the lowest maintenance cost cars, and maybe I've gotten lucky, but I haven't found them to be headaches.

[oldpotatoe]

Great for any 'grand tour'..:)

[R3awak3n]

I need to read better. I was going recommend a Vette

[rwsaunders]

Serious comment regarding the Miata...every time that I get the urge to shop for a Miata, I end up standing next to one in the airport parking lot or at a car show and comparing it to other cars. I cringe when I think about being in an accident in such a small car.

Is your friend looking for a convertible or T-top? If so, that narrows the field as well. There are decent amount of low mileage BMW and Lexus convertibles that pop up for sale, especially at the end of the Summer.

[dancinkozmo]

Great for any 'grand tour'..:)

you can almost smell the corinthian leather !

http://bestride.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Untitled-2.jpg

[MrCannonCam]

BMW 335 would be my choice. Twin Turbo 6. Can be had in 2 or 4 door, manual trans up to 13 or 14 model year and rwd or awd. I'm not sure on the most recent BMW version of this but when I owned an E90 it was the non-M 3 series to have. BMW 5 series Gran Turismo series can be had used for a bargain. Read an article it's one of the best 'sleeper' buys out there right now. All that said I've been dreaming of owning a Cayman. Have heard/read great reviews on performance, reliability, and practicality (as much as you can have in a mid engine sports car). Seem to be a good buy on the used market. Obviously operating costs will not be cheap, but owning mostly german (vw/audi/bmw) cars the past 10 years I can say it's worth it in my eyes and knock on wood I haven't had any real troubles with any of my german vehicles.

I've driven and owned (for a very short time) a Miata and while they are great fun I can't image your buddy going from a Vette to one...


I would have purchased a CTS-V over a Vette any day for a 'touring car' is the bottom line though...

[VTCaraco]

If someone couldn't afford a vehicle when it was new, they can't afford it when it starts needing things.

I dunno...
I drive an 04 E46.
Could I afford a new 3-series? Maybe, but I don't think I'd want to spend that much on a vehicle.

On the other hand, I've had mine for almost 5 years, I'm incredibly active and attentive in maintaining it, and I enjoy the heck out of it (and have put about 60k miles on it). It's not free to own, like a Honda or Toyota might be, but it certainly hasn't had gremlins of one sort or another that keep popping up (knock on wood).

To my mind, shopping second-hand demands a lot of attention be paid to the previous OWNER. If, as other suggest, the original owner operated the vehicle within reason and "could afford to own it" from a maintenance point of view, I think good options can be found in the used market.

We have 3 second-hand late-model European vehicles and each was owned responsibly and we enjoy them. We also have a Subaru that we bought new that is used less and less and less. It may be fairly bulletproof, but it's profoundly utilitarian (despite being well equipped).
In fact the Subaru hit 120k this summer and the routine/preventative service call for that would have been over $1500 through a shop. Undercutting or ignoring that would lead to problems, too (CVT, differentials, coolant, brake, cabin/air filters...with the CVT being the place that would hit the hardest).


As for the question of convertible or not, I think the preference is for a coupe with a roof.


My sense is that he's looking for more muscle (image or otherwise) than a Miata. The Lexus and Infinity might be an option. I'm clearly Euro-centric in my tastes, so that's where my mind went immediately. I've driven the Infinity coupes and wasn't wowed, despite the praise that they get. Haven't been in an Lexus in a while, though.

[jamesdak]

Serious comment regarding the Miata...every time that I get the urge to shop for a Miata, I end up standing next to one in the airport parking lot or at a car show and comparing it to other cars. I cringe when I think about being in an accident in such a small car.

Is your friend looking for a convertible or T-top? If so, that narrows the field as well. There are decent amount of low mileage BMW and Lexus convertibles that pop up for sale, especially at the end of the Summer.


Yet Miata's do amazingly well in crash tests, especially for a car that size. Having been recently in a head on collision in my F-150 shortly before buying mine I did a lot of looking into the safety aspect of the car. Newer ones have all the modern safety features and those hoops behind the seats are very good roll bars in case that someone happens. The nimbleness of the car seems to figure into avoiding accidents as well as the fact that most times when driving a Miata you are driving. The actual experience of driving takes over any distractions.

[jamesdak]

BMW or Audi going for $25k may be coming up on a lot of maintenance trips to the dealer.

You know I may be proven wrong but I'e owned 3 BMW's and never found then expensive to maintain. They've been pretty rock solid for me and I don't baby them. Worse repair were the valve cover gaskets on my 330ci ZHP. The last two years they leaked a bit of oil when first fired up after winter storage. Cost me $90 in parts from BMW and maybe two hours.

[don'TreadOnMe]

Get a 996 series 911 and call it a day.
Deal with the IMS and then have _fun_.

[GScot]

Audi S5. It actually is a Grand Touring Car. Room for two and enough luggage to tour the country. Solid and firm handling but not as jarring as a Vette. Fast enough too.

We bought ours from a guy who said it was the best road trip car he'd ever owned. He was moving it out to make room for a 69 Camaro he had been restoring and had his sights set on a TTRS for his next Audi. That was 2016 and I just happened to hear from him last week. He just bought a 2015 S5 because he missed it. Said the TTRS is a rocket but the S5 was so much better as a tourer.

With a little patience a very nice example could be found for around $25k. If they have a good history I would not hesitate to buy older and even less expensive. 2008-2012 had a V8 and 2013-2017 a supercharged V6. Similar performance and both have a great reputation for durability and reliability. The V6 with a tune and a few parts can be super quick and still maintain reliability as well.

[steveoz]

you can almost smell the corinthian leather !

http://bestride.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Untitled-2.jpg

you have to say it in Ricardo Montalban voice and roll the "r'...Corrrrrrrinthian leather...lol!

[glepore]

As a true gt, there is really nothing in the price range that beats a well maintained used sl500 or 600 mb. NOT a sports car, but I love mine when I'm in the mood to tour. I have a turbo 911 to wail, so I know what the difference is.

Yes, if let go they are money pits. Well maintained they are not, if I spend 1-2k on mine annually (on average) I'd be surprised. Look at the cars that BruceM has on bring a trailer, he sorts his very well.

As an example, I purchased a 96 sl600 v12 for under 10k, put about 2k into immediate needs and tires, and it has cost me less than 1k annually 3 years in (I do diy basic needs). Its on the upside of the value curve now as well.

[mnoble485]

Serious comment regarding the Miata...every time that I get the urge to shop for a Miata, I end up standing next to one in the airport parking lot or at a car show and comparing it to other cars. I cringe when I think about being in an accident in such a small car.

Is your friend looking for a convertible or T-top? If so, that narrows the field as well. There are decent amount of low mileage BMW and Lexus convertibles that pop up for sale, especially at the end of the Summer.

The wife wanted a Miata several years ago. When we went for a test drive my head made a lump in the soft top and when the top was down my sight line was at the top of the windshield. Not a car for the taller crowd.

Mike

[GScot]

Whenever I do some work on the S5 I like to compare what it would cost for a half ton pickup since those are the most common vehicle in the US and the easiest to work on.

Parts wise it usually comes out pretty close. I recently had to replace the compressor and added all of the downstream components like the drier and condensor plus a new expansion valve since the system had to be opened. I had to add in about $35 in replacement fasteners since it required a lot of disassembly but parts were about $500 and for a truck it would have been about $450. Labor would have been through the roof on the S5 though but since I can do everything myself that didn't factor in.

A few years ago I had to replace the A/C system on my wife's Prelude and it was much harder to source parts than the Audi and more expensive.

[tiretrax]

911 or Cayman with a good history. I have a '99 996 that's never had the IMS done. When I bought it, I had the oil pan pulled. No debris was found, nor in the oil or filter when they've been changed since then. There are a few other known issues like the variocam. But once dealt with, then it's a very reliable car.

[54ny77]

miata as grand tourer? seriously?

sure why not. i hear mtb's and their low gearing with smooth tires are going to be used at alpe de huez by pro tour teams next year.

:D :p

[Vientomas]

If you want a GT...Panamera.

[dancinkozmo]

If you want a GT...Panamera.

i LOVE their steak and arugula sandwich !

https://media.self.com/photos/591ccc792bd5f91ad823d4e5/4:3/w_746/Panera.jpg

[RFC]

As a true gt, there is really nothing in the price range that beats a well maintained used sl500 or 600 mb. NOT a sports car, but I love mine when I'm in the mood to tour. I have a turbo 911 to wail, so I know what the difference is.

Yes, if let go they are money pits. Well maintained they are not, if I spend 1-2k on mine annually (on average) I'd be surprised. Look at the cars that BruceM has on bring a trailer, he sorts his very well.

As an example, I purchased a 96 sl600 v12 for under 10k, put about 2k into immediate needs and tires, and it has cost me less than 1k annually 3 years in (I do diy basic needs). Its on the upside of the value curve now as well.

The Phoenix area is a Mecca for older, well maintained German sports cars and they depreciate like rocks in a lake. There are many great deals available. I have bought 5 90's Mercedes and never paid more than $6k. My sons are now driving 2 of them. Newer ones can be had for $10-20k. The key is to have a good indie mechanic. I do.

My 96 SL500 -- a highway monster! It's my Miami Vice car.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40678360343_fef18cc1e1_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24YBejp)IMG_6167 (https://flic.kr/p/24YBejp) by Robert Copple (https://www.flickr.com/photos/161536771@N04/), on Flickr

[glepore]

[QUOTE=RFC;2581667]The Phoenix area is a Mecca for older, well maintained German sports cars and they depreciate like rocks in a lake. There are many great deals available. I have bought 5 90's Mercedes and never paid more than $6k. My sons are now driving 2 of them. Newer ones can be had for $10-20k. The key is to have a good indie mechanic. I do.

My 96 SL500 -- a highway monster! It's my Miami Vice car.[QUOTE=RFC;2581667]



Beautiful black on black-brave man in AZ;)

Seriously, I've been shy about AZ cars due to the 90's plastics-ie the courtesy light thingy-that seem not up to uv abuse.

Still deals out there-bought a 98 sl600 in triple black with a pano for a buddy of mine last month in Tampa. 5k. Interior perfect, needs top hydraulics and a fender dent repaired. He has a body shop, so no problem for him. Likely a 15k car after 3k in work, and it has not just a pano but a one year only leather airbag cover.

[tomato coupe]

Calling a Miata a grand tourer is a bit like calling a Schwinn Sting Ray a randonneur bike.

[paredown]

you have to say it in Ricardo Montalban voice and roll the "r'...Corrrrrrrinthian leather...lol!

And better if you are wearing Brut at the same time...:banana:

[dancinkozmo]

you have to say it in Ricardo Montalban voice and roll the "r'...Corrrrrrrinthian leather...lol!

go to about 8:40 :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=NbBlIa5OtgU

[jamesdak]

Calling a Miata a grand tourer is a bit like calling a Schwinn Sting Ray a randonneur bike.


No, no, no......ya' just don't get it. Miata is always the right answer, GT, sports car, economy car, track car, commuter, etc, etc, etc..... Miata is always the answer. :banana:

[RFC]

[QUOTE=RFC;2581667]The Phoenix area is a Mecca for older, well maintained German sports cars and they depreciate like rocks in a lake. There are many great deals available. I have bought 5 90's Mercedes and never paid more than $6k. My sons are now driving 2 of them. Newer ones can be had for $10-20k. The key is to have a good indie mechanic. I do.

My 96 SL500 -- a highway monster! It's my Miami Vice car.[QUOTE=RFC;2581667]



Beautiful black on black-brave man in AZ;)

Seriously, I've been shy about AZ cars due to the 90's plastics-ie the courtesy light thingy-that seem not up to uv abuse.

Still deals out there-bought a 98 sl600 in triple black with a pano for a buddy of mine last month in Tampa. 5k. Interior perfect, needs top hydraulics and a fender dent repaired. He has a body shop, so no problem for him. Likely a 15k car after 3k in work, and it has not just a pano but a one year only leather airbag cover.

Yes, the AZ sun can eat up paint and soft tops. But, because of the Snow Bird populations, many of these cars are stored in garages and may not be driven for months at a time. Also, rust is not an issue here.

[tomato coupe]

No, no, no......ya' just don't get it. Miata is always the right answer, GT, sports car, economy car, track car, commuter, etc, etc, etc..... Miata is always the answer. :banana:

My apologies, I was raised by wolves.

[jamesdak]

[QUOTE=glepore;2581679][QUOTE=RFC;2581667]The Phoenix area is a Mecca for older, well maintained German sports cars and they depreciate like rocks in a lake. There are many great deals available. I have bought 5 90's Mercedes and never paid more than $6k. My sons are now driving 2 of them. Newer ones can be had for $10-20k. The key is to have a good indie mechanic. I do.

My 96 SL500 -- a highway monster! It's my Miami Vice car.

Yes, the AZ sun can eat up paint and soft tops. But, because of the Snow Bird populations, many of these cars are stored in garages and may not be driven for months at a time. Also, rust is not an issue here.

Yep, my favorite local used dealer that I've bought 4 vehicles off of loves to hit the AZ auctions. Low mileage cars in great shape with good repair records. I picked up a nicely optioned, mint looking, F-150 Lariet from them last year that came out of AZ. 10 years old and only 60,000 miles and not a thing wrong with it.

[KarlC]

He wants a “Grand Touring” car. Many of the suggestions don’t seem to fit that category. GT is typically a lux coupe for long distance driving. Think Herse rando bike, not a Spec Tarmac or Super Six.

I would suggest trying out an Infiniti coupe (older G37 or newer Q). BMW or Audi going for $25k may be coming up on a lot of maintenance trips to the dealer.

This

If he really want a true GT (Grand Touring) car then he is talking about a Lux Coupe.

Have him look into Mercedes CL cars they are true GT cars.

.

[jghall]

While there are many nice to consider, if you're looking for touring, convertible, and good reliability, Lexus SC430. Certainly not the fastest, nor most agile, but fast enough, a great highway cruiser, and bullet proof on the reliability part.

[grateful]

https://www.suttonmotorsports.com/vehicle-details/1991-mercedes-benz-500-sl-convertible-e1a7b321be17b44f9ef8748484dadfa3

[bfd]

Not sure if BMW and MB are the only cars your friend is interested in checking out, but if $25K is the price range, one car I just recently bought was a used 2015 Lexus IS 350 with the f package. My friend's daughter was selling her car and I have to admit, it is a pretty fun car to drive! Gas mileage isn't he greatest at 27-29mpg (highway), but the car drives amazingly well. It has 19" wheels and has a factory suspension kit that makes it corner as well, if not better, than my old 90 BMW 535i! The car had 38k miles on it when I purchased it for $20K! Something to consider!

Of course, with any used car YMMV!

Good Luck!

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/sCYK2OUxyO8/maxresdefault.jpg