OT: Pappy 25---would you take a shot?

[josephr]

Here the Alabama Beverage Control board -- ABC --- pretty much controls the inflow of liquor/wine to our area...Its a racquet, that's just how it is. For years when Pappy 25 was released, folks would camp out for a chance to buy a bottle for $300-$400 (limit 2) at 4 different stores across the state. Well, obviously working folks got fed up, so now ABC is doing a 'lottery' and you have to drive to Montgomery to make your purchase at a specified date/time. Of course, there's quite a few of other limited releases (mostly bourbons and ryes) but I'm thinking 'go big or go home' and score a bottle Pappy 25. Of course, ABC is thinking the same thing too....they've published the price for Pappy at $1869.22----I begrudgingly pay the $37 when I get a bottle of Basil when I know my buddy gets in in Kentucky for $25 or so.

Also, even if you do get picked for the lottery and you're up for the price, there's also the chance you may not get a bottle of Pappy 25, you're just committed to buying a bottle from a certain special release category --- most are $60-$80. Pretty dang hard to get your hands on a bottle of Pappy, even if you've got that sort of cash. Soooo.....do you or don't you throw your name in the hat?

[dbnm]

I have a doctor friend who had 4 bottles of pappy 20. One night we both drank about 8 ounce each. It was a fun night.

[dgauthier]

No, I wouldn't throw my name in the hat, I'd move to another state.

While loading up the car and saying goodbye to friends, I'd remind myself that most whiskies and whiskeys are optimal with around 14-18 years of aging. I've tasted both the 15 year old and 20 year old Pappy's, and Pappy is no exception. I'd buy Pappy 15 all the time if I could find it...

[pbarry]

https://www.thekitchn.com/buying-liquor-state-vs-private-141292

The first group of beverage control states is easy to recognize. This group prohibits the sale of liquor in private stores, limiting it to government-owned outlets only:

Alabama
Idaho
New Hampshire (sold tax-free, attracting many out-of-state customers)
North Carolina (stores are run by individual counties and cities)
Pennsylvania
Utah
Virginia
Washington
The second group of beverage control states might be harder to spot at the retail level. This group permits the sale of liquor in privately owned stores, getting involved instead on the wholesale/distributor end of things, effectively setting minimum prices and determining product selection statewide:


Iowa
Maine
Michigan
Mississippi
Montana
Ohio
Oregon
Vermont
What
West Virginia
We should mention too, that in addition to the states in these two major groups, there are a few states in which liquor stores are only government-run in a few areas, or are run by individual municipalities:

Maryland (government-run stores in 4 counties only)
Minnesota (some municipalities run their own liquor stores)
South Dakota (some municipalities run their own liquor stores

Government. Liquor. Money. Put them all together, and you can expect a little controversy. Many Alcoholic Beverage Control States are under pressure to privatize their operations, stirring up much contention and debate. Here are some of frequently used arguments, both for and against privatization.

Pros of Privatization

Those in favor of privatization in Alcoholic Beverage Control States often argue that privatizing government-owned distributorships and/or stores would lead to:

Competitive pricing
Convenience: More stores in more neighborhoods.
Choice: A greater variety of brands and types of spirits will become available for purchase. If a state-run monopoly chooses not stock a certain product, that product will be unavailable statewide.
Profits for the state: Sales of state-run distributorships to private companies would reduce state operating costs and create large cash windfalls.

Cons of Privatization

Opponents of privatization argue that diminished government control would lead to:

Compromised public safety: Some studies indicate that privatization leads more underage drinking and an increase in alcohol-related deaths (see link below).
Loss of profit for the state: While the sale of government-operated stores and/or distributorships to private businesses would generate short-term profit, a considerable amount of revenue could be lost in the long-run.
Job loss: Unionized government workers would be laid off.

[FlashUNC]

Pappy 25 is great, the best bourbon I've had. But you can get 90% of the quality for one tenth the price with other brands.

In other words, no, it ain't worth it. Spend too much to get the ounce and a half at a bar for a special occasion, don't bother with the bottle.

[ultraman6970]

Had to google this one, looks interesting to try....

[dave thompson]

The first group of beverage control states is easy to recognize. This group prohibits the sale of liquor in private stores, limiting it to government-owned outlets only: <snip>

Washington

<snip>


The State of Washington got out of the liquor business a number of years ago and now allows private sales of spirits. Our Liquor Control Board does the administration of the liquor laws and is not involved in the business of selling alcohol on any level. The same group of fun guys does the same for the cannabis business too.

[pdmtong]

I think you mean PVW 23, not 25. The 25 is super rare and easily 5 figures after market.

Pricing is what it is. Do not buy anything you cannot afford.

There is no point in thinking that one ounce pour just cost me $70 if you really do not love it.

PVW is no longer S-W and all BT now. still great, but it's not legacy. Has the 23 crossed over to BT yet?

Agreed the 15yo is the taste / price winner. Older bourbons are really soft, same as single malt.

Me? I would put my name in the hat. Be great to have to share with friends on special occasions.

LBS had the Basil for $23...meh. I like Eagle rare 10 and EH Taylor small batch as my dailies....

[adampaiva]

Not 25 but one of the best work surprises was when I was climbing around the penthouse / roof of a building in Long Island City Queens a few years ago doing work for a developer that just bought the property. I nearly tripped over a bottle on the floor and looked down and saw what it was. I was with the site super and said oh I see you’ve been enjoying yourself up here is this yours? “Is not mine. I have no idea” in heavy Ukrainian accent (ie I drink vodka only ) I recognized it and asked if it was fine to take which he said yes I don’t want this brown swill. Anyways, full bottle of Pappy 20 which I stumbled across on a roof of an abandoned building in Queens. I am guessing the developers threw a little party on the roof when they acquired the property and I was the lucky one that went the day after and found the stray bottle.
It was quite a bourbon. Worth the going price? ($800 at that point in time) No probably not. But I sure enjoyed it with friends and took it for New year’s and finished it off with the lady. Don’t think that will ever happen again.

Here was the Pappy alongside a few more pedestrian bourbons just before it was finished.

https://flic.kr/p/BTwHjm

[William]

https://www.thekitchn.com/buying-liquor-state-vs-private-141292

The first group of beverage control states is easy to recognize. This group prohibits the sale of liquor in private stores, limiting it to government-owned outlets only:

Alabama
Idaho
New Hampshire (sold tax-free, attracting many out-of-state customers)
North Carolina (stores are run by individual counties and cities)
Pennsylvania
Utah
Virginia
Washington

The second group of beverage control states might be harder to spot at the retail level. This group permits the sale of liquor in privately owned stores, getting involved instead on the wholesale/distributor end of things, effectively setting minimum prices and determining product selection statewide:


Iowa
Maine
Michigan
Mississippi
Montana
Ohio
Oregon
Vermont
What
West Virginia
We should mention too, that in addition to the states in these two major groups, there are a few states in which liquor stores are only government-run in a few areas, or are run by individual municipalities:

Maryland (government-run stores in 4 counties only)
Minnesota (some municipalities run their own liquor stores)
South Dakota (some municipalities run their own liquor stores

.

As far as Washington is concerned it doesn't appear to be the case anymore. I was in a QFC (supermarket) and noticed an isle stocked with hard liquor amid the aisles of wine.






W.

[pdmtong]

Pappy 25 is great, the best bourbon I've had. But you can get 90% of the quality for one tenth the price with other brands.

In other words, no, it ain't worth it. Spend too much to get the ounce and a half at a bar for a special occasion, don't bother with the bottle.

if you cannot afford it or do not want to afford it then pass. if that $1600 is in your budget and you would appreciate being able to own it and drink at will then buy put your name in the hat.

A $1600 will sell for 3x at a bar. over simplifying 3 x $1600 = $5,000 divide by 25 one ounce pours that's $200 each.

So for the bar price of 8 pours, you could own the bottle.

the bigger issue is when you have a bottle that you paid that much, it make most people hesitant to enjoy it. so they own it and just look at it because they are worried about finishing it, which is counter -intuitive but the reality since most bottles like that no one will ever be able to buy again. make no mistake thoguh - not life changing. do you have some friends you could split the bottle with?

I was in Alabama for the first time last June (Birmingham). The ABC store idea was really strange to me, and this after I got over the nuances in NH, GA and Oregon.

I did go to Top Golf and eat at Highlands. I wish I could have made it out to that place where it was a reconverted factory with a brewery. forgot the name.

Here, one can buy beer, wine and distilled spirits in a grocery store or a liquor store. Of course prices are all over the place but you can buy anywhere at anytime.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Allocated bourbon enthusiasts are so weird.

[pdmtong]

Allocated bourbon enthusiasts are so weird.

easy to say if you have a veritable bunker of unobtanium

[josephr]

well, mf GF and I decided to put our names in the hat and if we're fortunate to score a bottle or two of PVW (they list it as PVW25 on the ABC website), we're gonna flip and take a vacation or something. ;)

pdmtong - we've got 2-3 breweries here that run in old converted factories/warehouses...Good People and Back Forty --- go to GP for beers, go to BF for food. There's a few others here, but those are the most accomodating.

adampaiva - great stories make bourbons so much better!

[ScottW]

Here in VA it's all run by the ABC and they do online lotteries for the small allotment whiskies. If you're picked they will send your bottle to whichever ABC store you designate, so at least you don't have to drive very far. Of course, I've put my name in for a bunch of lotteries but have never gotten picked. Odds are total crap. The entire state will get sometimes a half-dozen bottles, sometimes 300 bottles depending what it is, and always thousands of entries. Odds range from a small fraction of a percent to maybe 1-2% for the less rare/in-demand bottles.

A few years ago we had a governor who seemed well on the way towards privatizing the liquor stores. Then he got caught up in some corruption scandal involving him and/or his wife receiving gifts from their home re-modeler who was also bidding on state contracts, something like that. Got convicted but later had it overturned in federal court. Too late, momentum towards liquor privatization was lost and it remains in the clutches of the state bureau-cleptocracy.

I would have no better shot at limited release bottles with private liquor stores; it's more about price & selection for the daily dram type stuff. My office is up in MD where there is a wider selection (although it may require visiting multiple stores) and pretty consistently ~25% lower prices.
Near my in-laws' place in IL they sell booze in Costco. I about crapped myself when I walked down that aisle, everything they stock was priced 30-40% lower than in VA. The ABC is a total racket.

[pdmtong]

well, mf GF and I decided to put our names in the hat and if we're fortunate to score a bottle or two of PVW (they list it as PVW25 on the ABC website), we're gonna flip and take a vacation or something. ;)

pdmtong - we've got 2-3 breweries here that run in old converted factories/warehouses...Good People and Back Forty --- go to GP for beers, go to BF for food. There's a few others here, but those are the most accommodating.
It's not easy to flip booze here. With prices so high and potentially suspect provenance finding someone to give me $1600 is no easy task. The liquor laws wont let me "sell Back" a bottle to a local store for auction. Wine yes, distilled spirits no.

The place I was thinking about was Avondale.

I would have no better shot at limited release bottles with private liquor stores; it's more about price & selection for the daily dram type stuff. My office is up in MD where there is a wider selection (although it may require visiting multiple stores) and pretty consistently ~25% lower prices.
Near my in-laws' place in IL they sell booze in Costco. I about crapped myself when I walked down that aisle, everything they stock was priced 30-40% lower than in VA. The ABC is a total racket.

Private stores doing lotteries...right. I think those bottles go to best customers or big dollar accounts. The lottery is a sham.

As for Costco, that's right. Prices are the best or right in line if they have what you want.

[Cantdog]

If you can get PVW23 at retail I’d grab a bottle, it’s good, but I’m in the camp it’s not great. I’d buy it at retail to trade for what I like more. I think it’s overoaked, and there are lots of other bourbons that I’d reach for first. I’ve had a pour of the 25 and it wasn’t good.

Last time I was able to get Pappy at retail was about 5 years ago. I luckily have bunkered a lot of stuff I love that I’m now working through, last bourbon I bought was about 8 months ago via foreign auction. It’s gotten much more difficult to get auction deals now, sadly.

If I had some PVW23 still I’d mail you an ounce sample. The last time I had a bottle I used it some for manhattans...so that should tell you how much the landscape has changed over the last 10 years, ha.

[redir]

Here in VA it's all run by the ABC and they do online lotteries for the small allotment whiskies. If you're picked they will send your bottle to whichever ABC store you designate, so at least you don't have to drive very far. Of course, I've put my name in for a bunch of lotteries but have never gotten picked. Odds are total crap. The entire state will get sometimes a half-dozen bottles, sometimes 300 bottles depending what it is, and always thousands of entries. Odds range from a small fraction of a percent to maybe 1-2% for the less rare/in-demand bottles.

A few years ago we had a governor who seemed well on the way towards privatizing the liquor stores. Then he got caught up in some corruption scandal involving him and/or his wife receiving gifts from their home re-modeler who was also bidding on state contracts, something like that. Got convicted but later had it overturned in federal court. Too late, momentum towards liquor privatization was lost and it remains in the clutches of the state bureau-cleptocracy.

I would have no better shot at limited release bottles with private liquor stores; it's more about price & selection for the daily dram type stuff. My office is up in MD where there is a wider selection (although it may require visiting multiple stores) and pretty consistently ~25% lower prices.
Near my in-laws' place in IL they sell booze in Costco. I about crapped myself when I walked down that aisle, everything they stock was priced 30-40% lower than in VA. The ABC is a total racket.

YEah it seems to come up every election cycle now. It is a total racket. The government should not be in the liquor business taking away the potential for some entrepreneurial citizens who can run a good business for themselves.

I rarely walk into an ABC store these days but I do use Everclear for French Polish shellac finishes and you cannot even get that in Virginia. Least not at my local ABC's anyway.

[pdmtong]

If you can get PVW23 at retail I’d grab a bottle, it’s good, but I’m in the camp it’s not great. I’d buy it at retail to trade for what I like more. I think it’s overoaked, and there are lots of other bourbons that I’d reach for first. I’ve had a pour of the 25 and it wasn’t good.

Last time I was able to get Pappy at retail was about 5 years ago. I luckily have bunkered a lot of stuff I love that I’m now working through, last bourbon I bought was about 8 months ago via foreign auction. It’s gotten much more difficult to get auction deals now, sadly.

If I had some PVW23 still I’d mail you an ounce sample. The last time I had a bottle I used it some for manhattans...so that should tell you how much the landscape has changed over the last 10 years, ha.

these are all trophy bottles for people with more money than experience. they fall into the older is better older is more expensive so older must be the best camp. I have a friend with a bunker...he too uses PVW for his manhattans. Pretty tasty I must say.

in the same vein as the PVW madness, so too is the weller madness. and I am not talking about BTACs but the no longer found on the shelf weller special reserve, 107 and 12yo.

[thegunner]

ugh, pappy is one of the white whales in my collection. that said, if anyone has a line and wants to help out a fellow paceliner... let me know, doesn't have to be the 25 either :banana:

[MattTuck]

What's wrong with a $27 bottle of Buffalo Trace, I say. Buy, drink, enjoy. Repeat.

No tears, no gnashing of teeth and no financial advisor required, and no need to appraise your bourbon collection for insurance purposes. (http://whiskyadvocate.com/how-to-appraise-insure-whisky/)

[bigbill]

I am not talking about BTACs but the no longer found on the shelf weller special reserve, 107 and 12yo.

I have had Weller 12 and it was very good. I think it was $200/bottle. But I also like Maker's Mark. And with Scotch, I'm happy with Monkey Shoulder.

[Cantdog]

these are all trophy bottles for people with more money than experience. they fall into the older is better older is more expensive so older must be the best camp. I have a friend with a bunker...he too uses PVW for his manhattans. Pretty tasty I must say.

in the same vein as the PVW madness, so too is the weller madness. and I am not talking about BTACs but the no longer found on the shelf weller special reserve, 107 and 12yo.

I lived not far from the Willet distillery so would go down pretty regularly and pick up their more aged releases. Funny, when I left KY you couldn’t even get Weller SR, which is an ok rail bourbon but not much else. It’s easier to find allocated bottles in MA than it is in KY.

I do miss the days of PVW sitting on shelves, REALLY good 4Roses picks, aged Willet bottles that weren’t priced 100$ a year, and going to yard sales and buying old stashes. It was fun while it lasted...

[tylercheung]

I thought finding Weller would be easy, the $20/bottle version of Pappy but that's all sold out too. But there's so many good whiskey labels, not worth spending large amounts of money on Pappy...

[Mr. Pink]

Another reason nobody has any money for retirement.

[pdonk]

Living in a place that allocates by lottery, I enter every year. The closest I have gotten to getting a bottle of pappy is a bottle of old rip van winkle.

I kind of wish I had sold the Old Rip instead of drinking it. It has an auction value of about $1000 CAD. It is good, but not that good.

if I were to win a bottle of the pappy in the allocation lottery I would definitely put it up for auction, and take the money and buy a single shot. Auction here is pretty easy, as Waddington's does them 2-3 times a year.

Recent auction price of $3600 cad for a bottle of 23 yr old is too great of a return on the $300 purchase price.

[CAAD]

What's wrong with a $27 bottle of Buffalo Trace, I say. Buy, drink, enjoy. Repeat.

No tears, no gnashing of teeth and no financial advisor required, and no need to appraise your bourbon collection for insurance purposes. (http://whiskyadvocate.com/how-to-appraise-insure-whisky/)

This 100%

[redir]

BTW with prices that high I'd be very weary of counterfeits.

[ojingoh]

I've had the 23, the 20 and the 15 - I'm with pdmtong, to me it's the best of the range, but it's not 'the best'. I think PVW/Julian Van Winkle's best are his ryes.

My daily is Eagle Rare 10 or Elmer Lee.


If you're flush, go for it. Keep in mind Bourbon is not as widely collected as Single Malt. I have also never met anyone who seriously collected high end blended malts, Canadian Whiskey, Tennessee Whiskey, Kentucky Rye or Japanese Whisky. I don't speculate but if I did, I'd load up on Single Malts instead.

[pdmtong]

I've had the 23, the 20 and the 15 - I'm with pdmtong, to me it's the best of the range, but it's not 'the best'. I think PVW/Julian Van Winkle's best are his ryes.

My daily is Eagle Rare 10 or Elmer Lee.

If you're flush, go for it. Keep in mind Bourbon is not as widely collected as Single Malt. I have also never met anyone who seriously collected high end blended malts, Canadian Whiskey, Tennessee Whiskey, Kentucky Rye or Japanese Whisky. I don't speculate but if I did, I'd load up on Single Malts instead.

The irony of all this is that I got into bourbon because the prices of single malt started moving up a lot. I don't regret not backing up the truck for PVW since of course who knew it would be priced up as well. There was no reason to buy six bottles fo $80 bourbon when you could get something daily for $20. I remember the case of weller 12 I sold back to the LBS because I was just tired of mixing/drinking it. I haven't seen weller on the shelf in five+ years

Now I look at my single malts and think the same thing...fark once these are done that's it. For instance there is no more age statement laphroiag. why didnt I buy that Laph 40 for $399 years ago? Because it was $399 and that was a lot then.

Japanese whiskey has been priced up too and age statements have disappeared. That Hibiki 17 I bought at Costco for $115 is around $500-600 on many sites. Should have bought more yamazaki 18 as well. oh well.

Yes, The Pappy Rye is terrific...

[sokyroadie]

I still can't believe that people like Bourbon, this from a KY resident. A local bottling company that we do work for contracts their own "recipe" some is now 10 -12 years old and apparently pretty good. Calumet is the name.

www.westernspirits.com

[lhuerta]

But there's so many good whiskey labels, not worth spending large amounts of money on Pappy...

+1...Pappys is good stuff, but there are MUCH better bourbons out there for a lot less $ (e.g. Michters 10 year, Rowan’s Creek, Colonel Taylor). I will applaud Pappy on their marketing and their “limited production” that has resulted in artificial demand for their product. Don’t get caught up in the hype, go out and taste others and let ur palate guide u, not the marketing.

[dgauthier]

+1...Pappys is good stuff, but there are MUCH better bourbons out there for a lot less $ (e.g. Michters 10 year, Rowan’s Creek, Colonel Taylor). I will applaud Pappy on their marketing and their “limited production” that has resulted in artificial demand for their product. Don’t get caught up in the hype, go out and taste others and let ur palate guide u, not the marketing.

In the same vein, who needs to work hard for bourbon when the Scottish are still making single malts? Oban 14 and Lagavulin 16 can be had at *Costco*, fer heaven's sake, and they're wonderful. Aberlour 18 is my all time favorite, and after a recent trip to Scotland we developed a fondness for Clynelish 14 as well.

The distillers have ensured these excellent products are all readily available with a minimum of fuss. I like it when the distillers work hard for *me*.