Grease versus Anti-Sieze?

[Road Fan]

I'm about to install an Ultratorque BB and chainset on a classic Italian steel frame (the fact it's classic doesn't matter much). For the aluminum BB cups, should I treat the threads with grease or anti-sieze?

The Ultratorque cups are nice silver aluminum and the frame is Columbus steel. It was faced a few years ago but not ridden a lot. I understand I need to clean and inspect the BB shell threads.

The BB shell has some vents to facilitate dripping. I'd like to put a plastic sleeve in it to reduce influx of gritty road dust and water as I ride. Has anyone does this? Any thoughts on a factory sleeve that would work here?

[primov8]

I've been wrenching on my own cars, suvs, bikes, etc.. for the last 25+ years. One of the best automotive greases available and my personal favorite is from the Red "N" Tacky grease from Lucas Oil. That 14oz. tube will last years if its just for your bike(s).

[m_sasso]

Generally Anti-Sieze is used in conditions where the pieces/parts are coupled but stationary, Grease is used on pieces/parts that are moving.

BB cups Anti-Sieze on the threads, Grease in the bearings.

Caution, you do not want to get Anti-Sieze in the bearings, light coating to the threads is adequate, don't over do it.

[Road Fan]

Generally Anti-Sieze is used in conditions where the pieces/parts are coupled but stationary, Grease is used on pieces/parts that are moving.

BB cups Anti-Sieze on the threads, Grease in the bearings.

Caution, you do not want to get Anti-Sieze in the bearings, light coating to the threads is adequate, don't over do it.

Thanks!

[doublenines]

What’s a good anti-sieze? Have a steel mtb single speed project in the works.

[GOTHBROOKS]

i used silver grade antiseize in the osbb shell of my crux before pressing the bearings in and my bb30 cranks never made a sound.

[m_sasso]

What’s a good anti-sieze? Have a steel mtb single speed project in the works.

Use a Nickel base anti seize like Locktite LB 771 Nickel Anti-Seize Lubricant https://www.all-spec.com/Catalog/Chemicals-Cleaning-Supplies/Lubricants/Anti-Seize-Lubricants/235028-30769

COMPARISON OF ANTI-SEIZE TYPES

Historically there have been three basic types of Anti-Seize on the market:

COPPER BASE
Copper base anti-seize offers good corrosion protection on all kinds of steel, but not stainless steel. Copper on stainless steel creates an inter-crystaline corrosion, which can make actual stainless steel parts crack and break. This is why the nuclear power plants do not allow copper with any material which comes in contact with the stainless steel parts.
Temperature Range: 2200° F

ALUMINUM BASE
Aluminum as a base material for Anti-Seize is good for use on stainless steel, but cannot be used on carbon steel, due to the fact that when it comes in contact with an electrolyte it becomes an anode and since this anode is extremely small in volume compared to the large cathode of the steel, it usually deteriorates quickly, leaving no protection at all on the steel surface. Corrosion therefore takes place at a higher rate of speed, as if no anti-seize would have been present.
Temperature Range: 1470° F

NICKEL BASE
Nickel has been used extensively in Anti-Seize materials, because it has good anti-seize and corrosion protection for both steel and stainless steel. However, nickel has been for many years, on the list of carcinogens ( cancer producing products ) and should not be used in applications where nickel based anti-seize is used on materials handled in workshops.
Temperature Range: 2500° F

[Cicli]

^^^^^^^this is good info. And the aluminum obviously has too low of temperature rating^^^^^^^

[AngryScientist]

for a BB shell i use grease and plenty of it. in a BB shell, the grease has three missions: lubricating the threads during installation, protection against corrosion and a barrier against moisture intrusion. liberal amounts of grease always in BB for me. assuming that's an italian bb shell, make sure you torque the cups properly or they'll unthread themselves.

[fmradio516]

NICKEL BASE
Nickel has been used extensively in Anti-Seize materials, because it has good anti-seize and corrosion protection for both steel and stainless steel. However, nickel has been for many years, on the list of carcinogens ( cancer producing products ) and should not be used in applications where nickel based anti-seize is used on materials handled in workshops.
Temperature Range: 2500° F

Hmm will need to do more research on this before I splurge on a bottle.

[m_sasso]

for a BB shell i use grease and plenty of it. in a BB shell, the grease has three missions: lubricating the threads during installation, protection against corrosion and a barrier against moisture intrusion. liberal amounts of grease always in BB for me. assuming that's an italian bb shell, make sure you torque the cups properly or they'll unthread themselves.

Some of us maintain our BBs, more than plenty of others don't, for those that don't, anti seize has its application.

I use to be a frat, I am a Fonzie fan now also!

[phoenix]

for a BB shell i use grease and plenty of it. in a BB shell, the grease has three missions: lubricating the threads during installation, protection against corrosion and a barrier against moisture intrusion. liberal amounts of grease always in BB for me. assuming that's an italian bb shell, make sure you torque the cups properly or they'll unthread themselves.



I’m on board with this 100%. I always use liberal amounts of grease for all of these reasons.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[berserk87]

This is one of the most informative threads I've seen here. And that's saying something. Thanks for posting some of this info guys.

[unterhausen]

I read the usage notes for anti-seize and came to the conclusion that they mostly consist of grease anyway. Plus some kind of metal that will probably promote an anodic reaction with one of the metals involved. BB's are almost all carbon steel, except for the few stainless bb shells out there. But I think it would require more engineering effort than I'm willing to expend to understand what anti-seize would be appropriate for a seatpost, if any.

That's interesting about nickel based anti-seize potentially causing cancer. I use nickel silver for brazing stainless, and that seems like a more likely vector for cancer than just getting some on your fingers. Wear gloves.

[Dave]

The permatex website says nothing about not using the aluminum based product with steel. It says OK for spark plugs, cylinder head bolts and exhaust manifold bolts, that are all steel and these days, most often screwed into aluminum heads and blocks.

They also say it prevents seizing and galling on all metals.

[Climb01742]

The knowledge here is pretty astounding sometimes.

[m_sasso]

From an old post, and a walking memory bank, Lane posted this:

I've seen this description before, and it has a few caveats, particularly for cycling.

First of all, cycling is a very low-stress application for anti seize. Think about nuclear reactors, naval vessel turbines, jet aircraft engines, and that's what the real specs are about. We don't have exotic alloys, high temperatures, high pressures, or any of the other key components of failure.

Copper only causes problems with stainless steel when at high temperatures and pressures in caustic environments (think saltwater coolant in a nuclear reactor). At room temperature in a bike frame, it works great. And it's stabler than any of the reasonable alternatives.

Bear in mind that anti seize is simply a mix of a grease and fine metal flakes. The grease itself does the job 99% of the time and the metal flakes in most applications serve to isolate the two surfaces rather than to interfere actively in electrocatalytic conversion. Surrounded by lubricant at room temperature in a hub or bottom bracket, you'll never see that copper or aluminum disappear as it would if it were interfering with electrocatalysis. This is why many people will use simple grease in bottom brackets or headset installation and never have a problem.

Second, bear in mind that there's crappy anti seize and good stuff. The grease in anti seize can be high quality synthetic grease or cheap clay-based lithium grease. It can also have a minimum of metal or a heavy dose of it. I've never seen an actual analysis, but I suspect most of the bike shop branded antiseizes (Park, Pedros, etc.) use a cheap lubricant and skimp on the metal. If only to get assurance of a high quality grease in the anti seize, i'd go for a major industrial brand (Loctite, Permatex, or the like). And also remember that if the grease deteriorates or gets contaminated, the stuff isn't going to do its job of preventing two surfaces from jamming together.

You can use aluminum anti seize in aluminum frames to avoid any copper catalysis of the aluminum in the frame, but it isn't essential. The grease should isolate the frame from catalysis anyway, which is why most bike shop anti seizes are copper and they don't offer an option. In industrial applications, aluminum anti seize is cheaper and easier to apply, which are considerations there. For bikes, I wouldn't really worry. I wouldn't use nickel anti seize only because they don't have as much lubricity and will cost you a bit more. There's no reason to use nickel unless you need to (i.e., corrosive environments, extreme high heat, and certain specialty steel alloys), which typically means the stainless fittings in a nuclear reactor coolant system or a naval turbine.

So in short, when you are using antiseizes correctly on a bike, figure that you're principally using the grease in the anti seize to protect your frame. If your bottom bracket jams in the shell, it's not likely to be because of inter metallic catalysis but simple oxidation of the bottom bracket shell or the bottom bracket itself. Remember that they can still corrode no matter what anti seize you have in place if they're exposed individually to sweat or road salt. All it takes is a very small bit of simple corrosion to create some oxides (the white powder you see at the problem site); the oxides are much bulkier than the original metal and simply jam the threads. The only solution is to change anti seize just as you would change grease, and at that point it probably doesn't matter all that much whether you use an anti seize at all -- on a bike at least. Reliable annual stripping and overhaul will ensure that nothing ever fails.

And don't use anti seize to protect against corrosion or slippage in a seat post or stem. Always use the synthetic grease with synthetic grit that you get from the bike shop. Or use plain high quality grease like Phil Wood green grease, which will last much longer and protect better than the basically very cheap stearate greases like Campy.

More Lane on grease: This is in a few other threads by now, but to make it convenient ...

A grease is simply oil stirred up into something to make it thick. That can be a clay (which is what most cheap white lubricants are, including ... sorry, Spud ... traditional Campagnolo grease). It can be a soap, which tends to be slightly caustic over time, oddly enough. It can be a synthetic carrier, as in Phil Green Lubricant. Some (like clays) are the most stable at high temperature and work best under high pressure. Among synthetics, cycling is very undemanding so practically anything will work. They aren't actually as lubricating and don't have the same lubricity because the synthetic carriers don't contribute to lubrication as well, but do ok for most purposes (including ours).

Antiseizes are simply grease mixed up with metal flakes. For our purposes, 95% of the purpose of anti seize is served by the grease. If you're really using an anti seize in an environment that needs it, the metal flakes will be consumed in lieu of part of your bike. You'll notice that never seems to happen -- the stuff in the threads when you disassemble a bottom bracket is just like when you put it in. Antiseizes are cheap or expensive -- the metals cost money and cheaper ones use less metal and also use cheap greases. Stick with Locktite or a similar industrial brand and it'll be adequate. Copper based anti seize work fine for most stuff; you'll notice that the tool and parts companies only offer copper based versions for use on bikes.

Sometimes you don't properly need lubrication because two surfaces aren't moving against each other (think a seat post in a seat tube) but want to avoid corrosion. The non-slip compounds I've used from Tacx and other companies have really crappy lubricant in them, but I've used them because of the grit they include to prevent slippage. However, I can't help but believe those will encourage corrosion in those areas because they aren't that protective and they actually maintain a slight gap that moisture can be drawn into. I have been moving more towards using regular grease for proper protection, and simply not using stems, bars, seat posts, and the like that are so badly designed that they snap or crush before they can reach a reliable holding torque. I'm probably in the minority on non-slip compounds, but it's a funky way to achieve a result. At a minimum, treat it like a lubricant that needs to be replaced every 6-12 months or so.

[Cicli]

Hmm will need to do more research on this before I splurge on a bottle.

Just don’t eat too much of it and you will be fine.

[bikinchris]

One very different opinion. Think of using threadlocking compound. It keeps the parts tight, however, it also keeps them from seizing.

[fmradio516]

One very different opinion. Think of using threadlocking compound. It keeps the parts tight, however, it also keeps them from seizing.

Though one time I used a bunch of blue loctite on an italian BB cup and it was INSANE how hard it was to get out a year later. I guess I used too much. Coulda sworn the threads were toast but nope; after the cup was finally out, everything was good.

[pbarry]

Old Potatoe will chime in early a.m. tomorrow, but in the meantime Iirc, he recommends two or three wraps of plumbers Teflon tape on AL BB cups and a lot of grease on top of the tape on a bb install, especially with AL cups on a Ti frame. I have used petroleum based plumbers pipe dope on top of Teflon tape with good success. Rector and Oatey make the real stuff.

[Dekonick]

Old Potatoe will chime in early a.m. tomorrow, but in the meantime Iirc, he recommends two or three wraps of plumbers Teflon tape on AL BB cups and a lot of grease on top of the tape on a bb install, especially with AL cups on a Ti frame. I have used petroleum based plumbers pipe dope on top of Teflon tape with good success. Rector and Oatey make the real stuff.

Especially important with titanium frames...

[93KgBike]

for a bb shell i use grease and plenty of it. In a bb shell, the grease has three missions: Lubricating the threads during installation, protection against corrosion and a barrier against moisture intrusion. Liberal amounts of grease always in bb for me. Assuming that's an italian bb shell, make sure you torque the cups properly or they'll unthread themselves.

+1

[oldpotatoe]

I'm about to install an Ultratorque BB and chainset on a classic Italian steel frame (the fact it's classic doesn't matter much). For the aluminum BB cups, should I treat the threads with grease or anti-sieze?

The Ultratorque cups are nice silver aluminum and the frame is Columbus steel. It was faced a few years ago but not ridden a lot. I understand I need to clean and inspect the BB shell threads.

The BB shell has some vents to facilitate dripping. I'd like to put a plastic sleeve in it to reduce influx of gritty road dust and water as I ride. Has anyone does this? Any thoughts on a factory sleeve that would work here?

1)DON'T use antisieze..grease migrates all around on UT and the antisieze could easily end up in the bearings.

2)Silver cups, not a green or gold tinge? First gen and the next 2 replaced these with tighter tolerances.

3)YES, the factory EPS sleeve works fine.

4)Lotsa grease in the shell, around the bearings..Use some teflon tape on the RH threads(if the far superior Italian threaded BB:))..
Though one time I used a bunch of blue loctite on an italian BB cup and it was INSANE how hard it was to get out a year later.

PLEASE, not 'glue' for this application..A good, tenacious grease..I use a mix of Blue, waterproof 'boat grease' mixed 50-50 with while lithium...

[Moorecw]

Anti-seize on bb threads/shells. Grease is for moving parts

[fmradio516]

PLEASE, not 'glue' for this application..A good, tenacious grease..I use a mix of Blue, waterproof 'boat grease' mixed 50-50 with while lithium...

so blue loctite mixed with grease? I used to do this(sorta) by putting a little loctite on some threads then grease on the rest. Then i thought that it must be a waste of loctite as the grease wouldnt let it set properly. so then i tried just loctite and it was tough getting out!

[unterhausen]

The loctite thread locker product range is very extensive, and it seems likely that there is a loctite product that is weak enough for this application. But I doubt it will stop corrosion as well as grease.

Anti-seize on bb threads/shells. Grease is for moving parts

this is a very tidy statement, but it ignores the fact that anti-seize is mostly grease.

[Gummee]

I'm lazy... Grease (that I have really handy) on BBs, seatposts in metal frames, quills, etc

Anti-seize only on Ti

M

[marciero]

so blue loctite mixed with grease? I used to do this(sorta) by putting a little loctite on some threads then grease on the rest. Then i thought that it must be a waste of loctite as the grease wouldnt let it set properly. so then i tried just loctite and it was tough getting out!

No, not "blue" as in loctite, but "blue waterproof boat grease" mixed with white lithium
(Not to speak for OP but could not resist)

[Spoker]

I use synthetic- high temp- brake caliper grease. Automotive stuff. Works well.

[doublenines]

The knowledge here is pretty astounding sometimes.


Ditto

Thanks for all this great information and knowledge sharing. I have some BB’s to attend to.

[oldpotatoe]

so blue loctite mixed with grease? I used to do this(sorta) by putting a little loctite on some threads then grease on the rest. Then i thought that it must be a waste of loctite as the grease wouldnt let it set properly. so then i tried just loctite and it was tough getting out!

BLUE Boat Grease..mixed, not blue loctite mixed..yikes..

[Dekonick]

Oh - My frames etc... are... ahem... classic. I still use square taper BB's and have a stash to last me a long time... As I do have Ti frames, I use automotive copper based anti-sieze in the BB with the square taper BB's. Can't say anything about UT so :shrug:

Old Potatoe seems to know :)

[bitpuddle]

BLUE Boat Grease..mixed, not blue loctite mixed..yikes..

There is nothing wrong with this advice, but the real waterproof marine grease is a huge PITA to clean up. You need some kind of degreaser, and you really don’t want the grease going down a home sink. Just something to consider if you don’t have a real shop to work in.

Bicycles are pretty low-demand for lubricants; any grease is fine. I only use the marine grease in Speedplay pedals, which are exposed to the worst of the road gunk and water and I don’t want to maintain them constantly.

[Dekonick]

There is nothing wrong with this advice, but the real waterproof marine grease is a huge PITA to clean up. You need some kind of degreaser, and you really don’t want the grease going down a home sink. Just something to consider if you don’t have a real shop to work in.

Bicycles are pretty low-demand for lubricants; any grease is fine. I only use the marine grease in Speedplay pedals, which are exposed to the worst of the road gunk and water and I don’t want to maintain them constantly.

Yep - Bikes are about as simple as things get - With all the $$$ invested in car tech over the years, I use automotive products often, or other industrial stuff...