Pursuit pacing - 2K versus 3K

[Dr Luxurious]

Got a pursuit coming up. Now that I'm 50 (ugh) the distance is reduced to 2K. I have no idea how to pace that distance. I have my pacing for 3K: essentially 26 sec spits on a 335 outdoor track. My thoughts are thus:

1. It's shorter so go faster, but by how much?

2. It's shorter, yes, but if 26 sec splits is my limit then faster will make for a very long and ugly final minute.

Any advice?

[MattTuck]

For the 3K distance, what fraction is your typical time of the world record time for that distance?

Now use that same fraction to calculate what your time could be at the 2K distance, and back out your lap splits from that :)

[Dr Luxurious]

^^^^ That's some fine logic! :)

[jmoore]

Can't you test this before the actual race?

How about: Distance = 1/3 less. Lap time = 1/3 less. 17.42 sec/lap :p

[mt2u77]

Nah. Now that you’re 50, you just ride your 3k pace . . . for 2k. [emoji23]

[nooneline]

It depends on you a lot. For the most part, the question isn't what lap time you should target - it's, what process do you use to uncover your target lap time? You can look at this as a problem based on time, or you can look at it as a problem based on power, however you are accustomed to solving problems in cycling.

If I were in your shoes I'd take a look at my standard power output riding a 4-minute 3km. Then I'd look at my standard power output for ~3 minutes. Then I'd do some testing - taking half lap splits for all of this and, since it's a solid bunch of efforts, definitely not doing them all the same day.

First I'd ride at that ~3-min power output and see what the resultant speed/lap times are. Then I'd do some flying 1.5km tests to see what it's like to hold that speed for a little while.

Then I'd do a few standing-start efforts; I'd see how fast I can get to that speed and then settle into it (more on that below).

With all of that information - it's essentially experience - it should give you a path to figuring out a lap split that you can confidently hold. And when your event comes up, you have experience trying to do that hard start without going too deep, lock in that target speed, and then of course empty the tank for the last lap and a half.

The training is different too - it'll be more anaerobic and less of an aerobic effort, which means that it will bias more toward a fast hard start. The less time you spend (as a percentage of your total effort) getting up to speed means the larger share of your effort is spent at your max speed.

[Dr Luxurious]

Good ideas!

The start is going to be critical for me. I'm not very good at spike-and-hold. I'm much better with a flatter power curve.

I bet I should gear down, too. Focus on higher cadence throughout so the start uses less muscular reserves.

[nooneline]

maybe

if you gear down, though, your average cadence is going to go up in two ways - first from gearing down, and second from holding a higher speed. make sure to stay within your optimal range.

secondly - do note that contemporary pursuit and TP science is that the first 10 seconds of anaerobic fuel are basically free, so use 'em to the max. prior, people would "not go out too hot," but now the thinking is, it's faster to get up to speed as fast as humanly possible. the shorter the event, the more that matters.

not being good at the spike-and-hold means that that area is one ripe for gains. a little work on it and you could find a good chunk of seconds. split kilos - standing start, easy lap, then a flying 1km - could be a way to work on it.

[Dr Luxurious]

Ah, good point: faster speed necessitates a higher cadence anyway.

The first 10 sec are free, huh? Maybe if you're a 25 year old Olympian.
So i'm guessing to do that you have to tap into your CP system? As in full sprint from the gun thereby activating (and exhausting) creatine metabolism?
This is starting to sound like a kilo rather than a pursuit. I'm skinny, kilos hurt.

split kilos - standing start, easy lap, then a flying 1km

So is that all one rep? (start, coast, flying 1) repeat?

[nooneline]

Yup, for a split effort, that's one rep. The idea is that you train your body blast off but then process that fatigue and still be capable of a maximal effort after it.

I always forget the details and the terminology but yeah, ATP-CP i think it is? stored in the muscles, available once in an effort like that, may as well make full use of it while you and the other energy production systems get up to speed.

And yeah - I know a masters WC record holder fella who, when he hit 50, felt like he had to make some major changes to go from the 3k to the 2k. I think he spent more time on muscular work and a little less on aerobic. Comparing it to a kilo is not far off, except that last lap is a lot longer. Kilos even hurt for the big guys. It's sort of like punching through a wall - only way you're gonna get there is to hurt.

[Dr Luxurious]

So this is interesting...

I found the splits of all the guys in my age group over the last few years.
Figured out that I need to do ~26.5 splits which is about 28MPH.
On a 51x14 (about 98in) that's about 95 revs.
That's a comfortable cadence for me so I went to the track and did a few efforts to see how it felt. Starts were tough but I could cruise at speed pretty well.
Then I got a flat on my disc...
The session was almost over so I put on another wheel with a 16 (about 86) to cool down. It felt BETTER holding 28mph on the 16 . That's over 110 revs. And starts are much easier.

So 2K really is more like a kilo - smaller gears a fast starts rather than roll a bigger gear up to cruising speed

[nooneline]

that's really interesting!

that actually kind of gels with some of my experience - for really fast races, i'm often geared below my competitors. I'm a lot more comfortable racing around 110 rpm than averaging ~105ish... other people will be on 102 or 104" gears and I'm happy on a 98.

Keep testing - try and find something in the middle and you might get even more speed; do some flying 1.5km efforts to ensure that you can pretty much hold that cadence for the whole time. And, I'd recommend doing some full 2km undergeared work so that when you put on race gear, your body wants to spin it up, and you (ideally) find a little extra speed.

[Dr Luxurious]

I can hold 110 for 2:40 but in a super light gear. And I've never tried it after a standing start.
I'm going to do some trainer work; play with gears / cadences.
I want to do some over-gear efforts, too.

Funny, back in the day we ran a 90 for just about everything, maybe a 92 for a 40K points. Now that's small.

[weavie]

I've found this pursuit schedule spreadsheet to be helpful, in case you don't already have it . . .

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z1opdyp42vgzdgf/pursuit_schedule.xls?dl=0

[ultraman6970]

The question is, how much you can do in 1km standing start?

All depends of that IMO.

[nooneline]

Funny, back in the day we ran a 90 for just about everything, maybe a 92 for a 40K points. Now that's small.

I remember reading an interview with Nothstein where he said he was the first person to start sprinting on big gears, scoffed at using a 49, and said he'd sprint on a 50x14. Now that's a small endurance gear.