HSG Bikes

[Sandy]

Serotta now has its 5 HSG bikes in the Stock Road Bike section of its website. Neat!!

HSG Road Ti
HSG Road IT
Cross
Cross Ti
Carbon


Stock Sandy

[Simon Q]

I agree. They look great and are a great option at good price (for a Serotta) if the stock geo suits your needs, as it would for most. The HSG line should be a winner for them. Which raod model would you go for though? I am a Ti man but the others look awesome as well.

Is it just me or are the F3 forks among the most attractive carbon forks going around?

[Clarence1997]

Should I go with the Ottrott in tri-geometry, the new CXIIti, or the new HSGtri???? :( :confused:

[Sandy]

Serotta now has 8 stock models, 9 custom models, and 5 special use models.


Sandy

[Simon Q]

Should I go with the Ottrott in tri-geometry, the new CXIIti, or the new HSGtri???? :( :confused:


What a great dilemma to have!

[sg8357]

Two comments,

On the HSG CX, why the high bottom bracket ?
Other wise the HSG CX would be a good all rounder.
Where is the long promised HSG/650 Bravo ?

Scott G.

[swoop]

i run a 6.5 on my road bikes.... it's my drop of choice. whats a 1/2 centimeter between friends?

[ergott]

That HSG carbon is real nice. I have to test ride one and compare it to my bike. The competition red or sapphire would work for me. If you guys are reading this, the bike pictured does a poor job of displaying the decals. I can hardly see them.

Could a level top-tube become an option somewhere along the line?

[Serotta PETE]

Should I go with the Ottrott in tri-geometry, the new CXIIti, or the new HSGtri???? :( :confused:

Go to a fitter first (one that you trust and is recommended by folks in the tri sport)> After that pick the model that works for you. If you do not need "custom" than you have more price point choices.

PETE

[saab2000]

These appeal to me. But the sizing seems a bit peculiar to my untrained eyes. The 56 has the right TT length, but a short head tube relative to other race bikes I have had. The next size up looks to have a tt that is too long for me.

I am sure that the sizing is proper for most people, including myself, but I am a bit curious.

Also, I am not sure whether the listed top tube length is actual or virtual.

I think I would ride a 56 and can imagine one in my future.

[92degrees]

It's very cool. An embarrassment of riches. I still can't figure out the niche for the steel HSG cross bike -- why would you choose that over a CIII with custom geometry, choice of paint, etc? It's a $200 difference? Not a choice I'll have to make this year. Maybe next year, though.

[Blastinbob]

I'm surprised to not see a 56 tt in the geometry chart, I have always thought it was a very popular size. One can assume that Serotta did there homework when making this decision not to add this size as a option.
The line looks like it will do well for Serotta and the dealers that sell Serotta's. :banana:

Bob

[Climb01742]

bikes look cool but i still think the name is sorta lame.

[OldDog]

I count 22 models, 14 with a custom geo option. Quite the line up.

[Sandy]

I count 22 models, 14 with a custom geo option. Quite the line up.

I counted 22 originally. I mad a mistake in saying 21.


Sandy

[Kevan]

I counted 22 originally. I mad a mistake in saying 21.


Sandy

you're the same ol' model.

Tried and a bit out of true.

[gt6267a]

It's very cool. An embarrassment of riches. I still can't figure out the niche for the steel HSG cross bike -- why would you choose that over a CIII with custom geometry, choice of paint, etc? It's a $200 difference? Not a choice I'll have to make this year. Maybe next year, though.

i will second this thought. if the difference between stock and custom is minimal, why take the stock option?

[Jason E]

i will second this thought. if the difference between stock and custom is minimal, why take the stock option?

I hear what you guys are saying, but there are some guys out there that havetrouble putting together the extra $200, and if the stock size works for them......


They get an Amazing bike, Serotta gets more Cross bikes out there, everyone wins!

I fit the stock geo of the HSG Cross, to the point where I can not imagine changes of I went custom, and would totally consider it.

[saab2000]

i will second this thought. if the difference between stock and custom is minimal, why take the stock option?

Custom bikes can open a whole new can of worms. Many people don't need them and they won't optimise much for most riders. That said, I am not against custom bikes. But a stock size is a good thing IMHO.

Go to 10 builders and you will likely get 10 different designs. All probably good designs. The body is more flexible and adaptable than most people think.

After years of trying to optimise my riding with customs, all my bikes save one are now stock sizes. My riding is just as fun and as good as it ever was.

[92degrees]

Oh, I understand there are pitfalls with going custom, I just think that even if OTR fits you, there's always some little tweak that would make it better -- slightly longer TT, a tiny bit more or less SO, etc. Plus, with a custom color the HSG is within $100 of the CIII.

Lotta acronyms :crap:

[zap]

Nice go fast geo. The 58 is spot on and quite close to my Klien.

But once again, the Serotta has a slopping tt.

[gt6267a]

jason e - love the transformer ref. well done.

to argue the other side, one very compelling reason for stock bikes imo is that the test ride and final purchase will be the same or at least have fewer variables. it is possible to actually know what you are getting.

that said, why not take a hsg and tweak it for yourself? while i am all for taking the $200 and putting into wheels or keeping it in the bank, it is 12.5% on the frame and built up with fork, $610, and kit, centaur at excel $1449, the difference is 5.5%. 3654 vs 3854. i find it hard to believe that someone will have 3654 and that last 200 will break them.

on my virtual scale a 12.5% / 5.5% drop in price does not out weigh the ability to have the color i want, potential geo tweaks for fit, or similar personalized options. now, for a 20 or better a 30% diff, i would take that more seriously.

i do think the used market for hsg bikes will be very interesting.

[Serpico]

am I the only one who thinks it's odd to go from 7 models to... what, 21+?

I thought the whole idea behind a "custom" frame was that it was custom--you don't need 236 versions to decide from... you just ask for what you want and they build it.

I think it would make more sense to build a product line around modular 'options' that can be applied to different models--while keeping the number of actual models very low. it seems every other company on the planet recognizes this. the supply-chain issues that motivate larger companies to this business model might be different, but from the customer's perspective it's the same. k.i.s.s.

last year they had a model called a 'Unicasi' (r.i.p.) which was... brace yourself... a bike with ss couplers. why it wasn't a "serotta cIII with coupler option"? makes no sense imo---none.

if I were to buy a serotta tomorrow--I have no idea which one I would buy*... absolutely no idea. it's like a book of friggin' carpet swatches--too many choices imo.

anyways... /rant off/


* only sorta true, I'd definitely buy a legend



disclaimer: just my opinion

btw, much love to serotta--I'm guessing these are just birth pangs from integrating carbon into the lineup

[Ken Robb]

These appeal to me. But the sizing seems a bit peculiar to my untrained eyes. The 56 has the right TT length, but a short head tube relative to other race bikes I have had. The next size up looks to have a tt that is too long for me.

I am sure that the sizing is proper for most people, including myself, but I am a bit curious.

Also, I am not sure whether the listed top tube length is actual or virtual.

I think I would ride a 56 and can imagine one in my future.

I think the main reason for a long HT is to get higher bars. Since these frame are aimed at racers that shouldn't be necessary as racers will want to be long and low. Everyone who knows me will be certain that the HSG bikes have no appeal for me with my bars and saddle even position.

[saab2000]

I think the main reason for a long HT is to get higher bars. Since these frame are aimed at racers that shouldn't be necessary as racers will want to be long and low. Everyone who knows me will be certain that eh HSG bikes have no appeal for me with my bars and saddle even position.

I do understand about the long and low. My bikes have a pretty big saddle-bar drop already even with the longer head tubes. Still, I am very intrigued. I wonder if there will be a steel 'budget' version?

[pdxmech13]

..........????????????

I'm with Saab on this.
I think the headtubes
are way short.

why would someone
not get custom geo ?

the only thing this line can possibly contribute to anyone is serotta and maybe the dealer. this only makes stock bikes for the floor easier to purchase and I would be curious to know if the dealer stocking agreement has increased ?

[Skrawny]

I used to be able to say that I've ridden every bike in Serotta's lineup at least 60miles.

Now it looks like I have my work cut out for me.

Serotta James, when are you in town next... :bike: :beer:
-s

[OldDog]

I counted 22 originally. I mad a mistake in saying 21. Sandy


I was'nt questioning you Sandy, I read your first post and went to the site to fish around and ended up counting, and making my post, before reading the entire thread, missing your second post.

I think it is great to see Serotta move more into the "stock" bike market. So long as the growth does not hinder their custom capabilities before I save enough nickles for a Legend.

[Jason E]

I think the headtubes
are way short.

why would someone
not get custom geo ?


They are not too short for everyone, they are fine for me. Why get custom if stock works perfectly? I think the regular HT's are too long.

[93legendti]

They are not too short for everyone, they are fine for me. Why get custom if stock works perfectly? I think the regular HT's are too long.

Plus, I think a stock size bike might have a higher resale than a custom bike.

[saab2000]

The headtubes seem short on paper. But Serotta knows a lot more about proper design than I do so I give them the benefit of the doubt. I would have to see one and probably ride one before I would buy though. When the time comes I willl have to find a dealer with one in stock.

[05Fierte TI]

As I have just gone thru the fitting process for my cda, I will add to the head tube being too short on the HSG's for my build. If the top tube is correct and I do not flip stem upside down, my rib cage would hit my thighs when in the drops.

I really wanted to like the bike, but it just will not work. My Fierte has no spacers under the stem, but the shift to the HSG is too much!!!

[Jason E]

As I have just gone thru the fitting process for my cda, I will add to the head tube being too short on the HSG's for my build. If the top tube is correct and I do not flip stem upside down, my rib cage would hit my thighs when in the drops.

I really wanted to like the bike, but it just will not work. My Fierte has no spacers under the stem, but the shift to the HSG is too much!!!

So then that will fit you perfectly and you will enjoy it.... Mazel Tov!

Different people have different needs, and that is the beauty of it all. Now there are more options. for everyones flexability. You can ride the fierte and someone with a different need can fit on the HSG where they would normally look to another manufacturer for a stock geometry road bike.

Brilliant!

[petitelilpettit]

Did Serotta ever consider a HSG Track model? I think that this could possibly sell with the new fixed gear craze. Just my $.02.

Pettit

[Serpico]

Did Serotta ever consider a HSG Track model? I think that this could possibly sell with the new fixed gear craze. Just my $.02.

Pettit

needs a hip name though. I'm throwin' out 'vauxhall' and 'pendleton'--ya feelin' me?! what about logo wear--hows about some adidas track suits that say 'ride one and see'? $300 titanium bottle cage sized for a pbr can. nice.

I think they could make a _serious_ track bike, but those hipster bikes cost less than a set of wheels. no way they're paying $3k a frame for someone to just pull the decals off and lock it to a parking meter.

if track guys are racing these--then they'll get respect. I say get more folks racing their (serotta's) frames where they can be seen. people are posting pics non-stop of sweet-as-hell bikes in the mud or ridin' the pines, but none say serotta. they could do anything to get as many people as possible riding their stuff at competitions. people see that, well--they wanna buy the bike.

bmc=case in point

just my opinion

[petitelilpettit]

needs a hip name though. I'm throwin' out 'vauxhall' and 'pendleton'--ya feelin' me?! what about logo wear--hows about some adidas track suits that say 'ride one and see'? $300 titanium bottle cage sized for a pbr can. nice.

I think they could make a _serious_ track bike, but those hipster bikes cost less than a set of wheels. no way they're paying $3k a frame for someone to just pull the decals off and lock it to a parking meter.

if track guys are racing these--then they'll get respect. I say get more folks racing their (serotta's) frames where they can be seen. people are posting pics non-stop of sweet-as-hell bikes in the mud or ridin' the pines, but none say serotta. they could do anything to get as many people as possible riding their stuff at competitions. people see that, well--they wanna buy the bike.

bmc=case in point

just my opinion

Sorry, Serpico. I knew what I was trying to say, and I was suggesting a HSG Track model for a true track bike. Serotta would not be able to compete with Surly, EAI or IRO for cheap fixie frames. However, I could see a HSG Track model being a hit. Especially if it is steel. The only problem would be if you would make it specifically for velodrome usage only or also make it with brake holes for a street trainer. I dunno, but I think I am planning a Serotta track bike down the ways.

Pettit

[Serpico]

the hsg cross bike is a great price point imo. I think they can sell a bunch

Sorry, Serpico. I knew what I was trying to say, and I was suggesting a HSG Track model for a true track bike. Serotta would not be able to compete with Surly, EAI or IRO for cheap fixie frames. However, I could see a HSG Track model being a hit. Especially if it is steel. The only problem would be if you would make it specifically for velodrome usage only or also make it with brake holes for a street trainer. I dunno, but I think I am planning a Serotta track bike down the ways.

Pettit

[woolly]

Years ago I remember drooling over Tim Goodwin's custom Csi track bike at RBM in Richardson, TX. I can't remember if it was white or frost white, and since Tim was at least a half foot shorter than me it was nowhere near my size, but I distinctly recall feeling that I WANTED THAT. (I ended up buying an Atlanta, then later a Csi from Tim).

I have no doubt that Serotta has both the knowlege and skill to make an absolutley killer track bike in stock sizes. But, I think the dilemma here again would be the price point. I think many of the hardcore trackies would spend the extra couple hundred bucks for full-custom (and you can get that right now, if you want it, right?).

I just wish they'd reconsider the graphics for these stock models. I've always thought Serotta's were some of the classiest bikes out there, but these new graphics just give them a "cheap" feel. YMMV considerably.

[woolly]

So then that will fit you perfectly and you will enjoy it.... Mazel Tov!

Different people have different needs, and that is the beauty of it all. Now there are more options. for everyones flexability. You can ride the fierte and someone with a different need can fit on the HSG where they would normally look to another manufacturer for a stock geometry road bike.

Brilliant!

So the two choices are now the Fierte and the HSG geometries? What happened to the "standard" stock sizing? It looks like I'm right smack-dab in between these two ends of the spectrum, as I suspect many others are. I know I can get full-custom geometry for nearly the same price, but I find it odd that this middle-ground has disappeared from their website. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place. :D

[Smiley]

Geez guys nothing really has changed with Serotta, you want a TRACK bike order one in any material you want. HSG is just a way to get dealers to put stuff on the floor that they can sell with no client requested options. The Fierte Line was a really good seller for Serotta that way so why not expand the concept to the other lines. So for me as a fitter HSG takes me pretty much out of the equation EXCEPT most of the clients that I see would not fit well on long and low racing bikes, for that matter I could not ride an HSG geometry either for that very fact that I need a higher handlebar placement.

So relax and if you want it they shall build it except an Hors Categorie or a Uniscasi Steel bike :)

I applaud Serotta for making a lower price point bike available BUT I think the landscape is changing so fast with Carbone Fibre materials that even Serotta will need to look overseas to produce a HSG at a pricepoint that will sell in larger quantities. Maybe their aquisition of the old Reynolds CA plant is a step in the right direction but it will be hard to compete with foreign sourced Carbone bikes in the distant future, some like my buddy Climb may say that is already the case and I may tend to agree with him. Would you buy a Fierte Carbone bike for $ 2000 made overseas ?

[saab2000]

Would you buy a Fierte Carbone bike for $ 2000 made overseas ?

Nope. If it is made overseas it had better be a lot cheaper than $2000. I rode with some guys this morning on Felt carbon bikes. I bet those cost about $100 from production to the bike shop floor for the frame/fork.

I hope that builders like Serotta are able to compete in this world of cheap Chinese imports. Their deal with Reynolds is very big news though, bigger than people here talk about.

I wonder if there will be a steel HSG? The carbon one is still pretty spendy.

[Serpico]

.

yeah, why isn't this getting more airplay? sounds like some very smart decisions are being made RE:carbon.


...

Their deal with Reynolds is very big news though, bigger than people here talk about.

...

[zap]

snipped

So for me as a fitter HSG takes me pretty much out of the equation EXCEPT most of the clients that I see would not fit well on long and low racing bikes, for that matter I ..........


No :) , we need you to keep after Serotta to make bikes with level tt.

[woolly]

So relax and if you want it they shall build it except an Hors Categorie or a Uniscasi Steel bike :)



Or a Csi.

Sorry, I just COULDN'T resist. ;)

[1centaur]

I applaud Serotta for making a lower price point bike available BUT I think the landscape is changing so fast with Carbone Fibre materials that even Serotta will need to look overseas to produce a HSG at a pricepoint that will sell in larger quantities. Maybe their aquisition of the old Reynolds CA plant is a step in the right direction but it will be hard to compete with foreign sourced Carbone bikes in the distant future, some like my buddy Climb may say that is already the case and I may tend to agree with him. Would you buy a Fierte Carbone bike for $ 2000 made overseas ?

Two points:

Calfee and Parlee, to name two, are making CF bikes at lower price points than Serotta with the same tubing source in the US or perhaps these days from a closely-related US spin-off. Assuming all three makers pay their work force about the same, and given that Serotta's fixed costs are amortized over a larger base, I think it's fair to say that the HSG and Attack CF frames are not priced where they are because they're domestically made.

Second, Ben Serotta has built up enough goodwill by his attention to design and construction that if he chose to have an Asian-sourced line of CF bikes I would hope most here would expect them to be up to Serotta's historic standards and consider them worthy of purchase. Of course, they'd have to have a level top tube and a decent paint job :)

[CNY rider]

Two points:

Calfee and Parlee, to name two, are making CF bikes at lower price points than Serotta with the same tubing source in the US or perhaps these days from a closely-related US spin-off. Assuming all three makers pay their work force about the same, and given that Serotta's fixed costs are amortized over a larger base, I think it's fair to say that the HSG and Attack CF frames are not priced where they are because they're domestically made.

Second, Ben Serotta has built up enough goodwill by his attention to design and construction that if he chose to have an Asian-sourced line of CF bikes I would hope most here would expect them to be up to Serotta's historic standards and consider them worthy of purchase. Of course, they'd have to have a level top tube and a decent paint job :)

Ben does have tremendous credibility in my eyes. He would be going deep into the well of goodwill however if he started putting his name on Taiwanese /Chinese carbon. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Asian carbon frames, just that it's not what I expect from Serotta. The craftsmen making frames in Saratoga mean a lot to me when I make my purchasing decisions. I'm not sure how I would react to a Taiwan carbon Serotta.

[Serotta PETE]

1centaur, I do not mean to start a food fight here but -
- how do you know "they" use the same tubing source? and then you say>>
- or as to closely related US spin off (you got me on that one- what does it mean in terms of anything?)
- What do you basing you assumption on in regard to price. All carbon is not the same, nor is all design, or QC, or experience that goes into product.
- Most do not care if level top tube or not?? While I like a level top tube, the likes of Specialized/Giant prove that it is not necessary. (Yes their product is made and tubing sourced outside US). This is neither good or bad just fact. Seortta is US only. They even bought a mft in Calif for Carbon
- Decent paint?? I am willing to match their paint to any other manufacturer. What are you basing your statement on?

Others might not have found your note offensive, but I had a problem with the way you stated some items as "Fact". Have you ridden the bikes, been part of the manufacturing or tubing spec evaluation?"

I typically stay out of these "food fights" but I would ask that you hold evaluation till you ride them - and even then let folks form their own opinion.

You are on the site sponsored by SEROTTA (who else offers such a site?). While you do not have to "white wash" the product AT least base things on fact and quantified assumptions.

The dedication to the sport and the product of such folks as Ben, Kelly, Jason, and the entire SEROTTA team is second to none.

If the two manufactures that you mention are more to your liking, there is no problem "Buy them". All I ask is that you let others do the same.

Stop by sometime for a glass of red and I am sure we will have a good time. Ben might even supply the red - if not I will. :beer:

PETE


Two points:

Calfee and Parlee, to name two, are making CF bikes at lower price points than Serotta with the same tubing source in the US or perhaps these days from a closely-related US spin-off. Assuming all three makers pay their work force about the same, and given that Serotta's fixed costs are amortized over a larger base, I think it's fair to say that the HSG and Attack CF frames are not priced where they are because they're domestically made.

Second, Ben Serotta has built up enough goodwill by his attention to design and construction that if he chose to have an Asian-sourced line of CF bikes I would hope most here would expect them to be up to Serotta's historic standards and consider them worthy of purchase. Of course, they'd have to have a level top tube and a decent paint job :)

[1centaur]

I sent you a PM on these issues Pete.

[stevep]

. Assuming all three makers pay their work force about the same, :)

huge assumption, no?
serotta is long established with a group of top notch long time staff members who are well paid by industry standards.
how does that compare to parlee?
i dont know calfees operation.

the frame is not the tubing. raw materials are a relatively small part of the cost of a top notch frame.

[pdxmech13]

I don't see how there can be an argument in the cost of what serotta is selling the carbon models for. Sure we could name names of those who have been doing it for some time but a Serotta is a Serotta after all.

[saab2000]

It is a business and clearly Serotta is getting something because of the name on the downtube. Whatever 'Better' means is not really the issue here. But Serotta can ask for $7000 or whatever it is for a Meivici because they know that some people will pay it. I cannot, but some others can and that is their target market.

A Ferrari and a Porsche 911 Turbo have more or less identical performance and from a numbers point of view are comparable. Somehow Ferrari is able to charge more. Why? Because they can.

Something is worth what people will pay for it. This has been discussed a lot here.

[pdxmech13]

I totally think you hit the nail on the head. Good work cost money especially with a big work force !

[litespeeder3]

OrgName: Covad Communications Co.
OrgID: CVAD
Address: 2510 Zanker Rd.
City: San Jose
StateProv: CA
PostalCode: 95131
Country: US


Where did serotta get this "high speed geometry"? Does a frame builder just out of the blue decide to begin building "great" racing frames without having any history of building racing frames? Oh ya, that's how Colnago and Time started to build great racing frames. These frame builders just decided one day that they were going to build a "high speed geometry" frame out of thin air. NOT! It takes a history of racing and innovation and endless wind tunnel testing and CAAD designs to come up with a great racing geometry. How does a company with a business model of building frames for fat old slow guys go about building a "high speed geometry" frame?

The frame building industry is always making claims of new technological innovations that promise to make the cyclist go faster and climb better. But this serotta HSG has got to be the most surprising and outlandish claim that I have heard in all of my years as a racer. So what's next? Is subaru going to announce tomorrow that they are building a sports car that is on par with Porsche? Or perhaps Pontiac is getting ready to announce a new line of BMWs. Any frame builder can make outrageous claims but only a fool would mistake such claims for real innovation.

:bike:

[mike p]

(But this serotta HSG has got to be the most surprising and outlandish claim that I have heard in all of my years as a racer.)



Then you don't have many years as a racer or you would know serotta has a history building real race bikes. A TDF sponsored team as well as many rebadged bikes in the hands of euro pro's. They have also sponsored many domestic teams. Do a little research next time before making a fool of yourself.

Mike

[pdxmech13]

are you serious ?

[ThasFACE]

are you serious ?

litespeeder has made similar comments on rbr. I have only seen a handful of his posts, but it seems that he really likes to diss serotta.

For example: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=768535#poststop

[Simon Q]

Where did serotta get this "high speed geometry"? Does a frame builder just out of the blue decide to begin building "great" racing frames without having any history of building racing frames? Oh ya, that's how Colnago and Time started to build great racing frames. These frame builders just decided one day that they were going to build a "high speed geometry" frame out of thin air. NOT! It takes a history of racing and innovation and endless wind tunnel testing and CAAD designs to come up with a great racing geometry. How does a company with a business model of building frames for fat old slow guys go about building a "high speed geometry" frame?

The frame building industry is always making claims of new technological innovations that promise to make the cyclist go faster and climb better. But this serotta HSG has got to be the most surprising and outlandish claim that I have heard in all of my years as a racer. So what's next? Is subaru going to announce tomorrow that they are building a sports car that is on par with Porsche? Or perhaps Pontiac is getting ready to announce a new line of BMWs. Any frame builder can make outrageous claims but only a fool would mistake such claims for real innovation.

:bike:

Dude, you are making yourself look a little silly with that rant and, if it is you, the rant in the link that ThasFACE dug up even seeks to offend a group with a disability in the process. Way to go.

[dave thompson]

Relax all, it's just litespeeder...err...no, wait it's litespeeder2, dang..it's litespeeder3 in his new guise as his usual arrogant jerk (sorry obtuse) self, of whom both his earlier iterations are on posting probation here and on other bike forums. This kind of post apparently makes him feel important and gives him some dim hope that we think that he knows what he's talking about.

[pdxmech13]

and to think i was going to get all upset and cry myself to sleep again :D

[Simon Q]

Looking back again, I love this one:

How does a company with a business model of building frames for fat old slow guys go about building a "high speed geometry" frame?

This must be an inside job if he knows the real business model at Serotta.

[1centaur]

huge assumption, no?
serotta is long established with a group of top notch long time staff members who are well paid by industry standards.
how does that compare to parlee?
i dont know calfees operation.

the frame is not the tubing. raw materials are a relatively small part of the cost of a top notch frame.

Totally correct in every respect. My point was mostly about the cost of domestically produced tubing. Once that's off the table, there is a chance that Serotta's employees are either great in number vs. how many frames are produced compared with others, or so well paid as to overcome the greater level of cost spreading via a fairly large production level. Neither is required for "domestic production," but we could explain price point by those and perhaps many other factors.

[soulspinner]

Where did serotta get this "high speed geometry"? Does a frame builder just out of the blue decide to begin building "great" racing frames without having any history of building racing frames? Oh ya, that's how Colnago and Time started to build great racing frames. These frame builders just decided one day that they were going to build a "high speed geometry" frame out of thin air. NOT! It takes a history of racing and innovation and endless wind tunnel testing and CAAD designs to come up with a great racing geometry. How does a company with a business model of building frames for fat old slow guys go about building a "high speed geometry" frame?

The frame building industry is always making claims of new technological innovations that promise to make the cyclist go faster and climb better. But this serotta HSG has got to be the most surprising and outlandish claim that I have heard in all of my years as a racer. So what's next? Is subaru going to announce tomorrow that they are building a sports car that is on par with Porsche? Or perhaps Pontiac is getting ready to announce a new line of BMWs. Any frame builder can make outrageous claims but only a fool would mistake such claims for real innovation.

:bike:
Great racing geometry was around before wind tunnels and CAD machines....have you been in the figgy pudding?

[stevep]

i await the wit and wisdom of litespeeder4

my father used to say... the empty drum makes the most noise...
he is proved correct over and over.

[mso]

HSG - It's a marketing tool to sell stock bikes and capture a more "race" oriented rider. They're probably riders out there that whom own a custom Serotta that matchs the race geometry before it became a stock geometry. It's really not some great innovation. It's just a more aggresive geometry similiar to many stock frames.

[Ozz]

... HSG is just a way to get dealers to put stuff on the floor that they can sell with no client requested options. ...
Here's Some instant Gratification

[Ti Designs]

How does a company with a business model of building frames for fat old slow guys go about building a "high speed geometry" frame?

So if my picture is on page 21 of the 42 page Serotta '06 catalog, does that make me the fat old slow guy centerfold? Is it an exclusive club or can bald, ugly, stupid guys get Serotta bikes too?

[Serotta_James]

High School Girls
Hurts So Good
Have Some Grits

Naming bikes and model lines has never really been the strongest facet of our company. Making the best bikes we know how to make is the foundation and guiding light of this company.

HSG is a moniker that delineates a series of stock bikes that are designed for the needs and wants of competitive riders. We know (generally) what these characteristics are because we have been building custom race bikes for a long time. We also had quite a bit of dealer requests for and subsequent involvement on developing these products. So, they're certainly not materializing out of the void.

I don't care for the name much either, but the bikes are pretty sweet.

[Skrawny]

.... when are you bringing them out here? :D

-s

[saab2000]

High School Girls
Hurts So Good
Have Some Grits

Naming bikes and model lines has never really been the strongest facet of our company. Making the best bikes we know how to make is the foundation and guiding light of this company.

HSG is a moniker that delineates a series of stock bikes that are designed for the needs and wants of competitive riders. We know (generally) what these characteristics are because we have been building custom race bikes for a long time. We also had quite a bit of dealer requests for and subsequent involvement on developing these products. So, they're certainly not materializing out of the void.

I don't care for the name much either, but the bikes are pretty sweet.

We all know that. But the troll is trying to pick a fight and knows that he can get some people lit up.

I'll have the carbon HSG please, with Campagnolo Borat wheels and the new neato crank. S'il vous plait.

[Serotta_James]

.... when are you bringing them out here? :D

-s

February.
Which one do you want to ride?

James

[mike p]

"I don't care for the name much either, but the bikes are pretty sweet."

Next time have a forum contest, I'm sure we could give a new model a proper name.

Mike

[saab2000]

"I don't care for the name much either, but the bikes are pretty sweet."

Next time have a forum contest, I'm sure we could give a new model a proper name.

Mike

That's a good idea.

I like the name of mine: Colorado III - Third generation of the Colorado I guess.

I also think "Atlanta" is good. So is "Legend".

HSG is not bad, though it reminds me a bit too much of a food preservative.

[mike p]

"HSG is not bad, though it reminds me a bit too much of a food preservative."

Zackly, that's what I thought ever since I first heard it.

Mike

[davids]

I think the HSG line is a great idea. I think more options for stock bikes makes sense - 90% of us can be successfully fit for them, and are probably better off trusting Kelly Bedford than our local fitter. Remember - Up until a few years ago, Serotta wasn't emphasizing their custom options as much, and featured standard geos prominently in their marketing.

This seems to me like having it both ways - A significant selection of stock geo bikes, with limited finish options, at a lower price point than their full-on customs. And a corresponding selection of completely customizable frames for those who need unusual geos, or choose to pay a premium for other custom features.

I approve.

And Litespeeder# has demonstrated that he's not only a dumb@ss provocateur, but an unrepentant anti-Semite. He deserves to be shunned, completely and utterly.

[saab2000]

I approve too.

My only question is whether or not by accepting the stock geo and sizes and stock finishes, are we getting the best of the rest? For example, does the Ti HSG have Serotta's best tubesets? Does the carbon HSG have the same tubesets as the Meivici?

This I would like to know.

[Serotta_James]

I approve too.

My only question is whether or not by accepting the stock geo and sizes and stock finishes, are we getting the best of the rest? For example, does the Ti HSG have Serotta's best tubesets? Does the carbon HSG have the same tubesets as the Meivici?

This I would like to know.

Certainly the technologies and processes used in the HSG bikes derive directly from our custom bikes. This does not mean that the bikes are composed of left-overs. It just means that we get to pick those aspects of the custom bikes that will best fit the mission of each stock bike.

The HSG carbon has (more or less) the same tubeset and spec as the Attack custom frame, which has a less complex material set than the MeiVici.
The HSG Ti road bike has a tubeset that's a cross between a Concours front end (built really stiff) and a Nove rear end (again, built for stiffness).
The HSG IT, which is the one I'm personally most excited about, uses a carbon tubeset that's actually quite unique to that model.

For me, as a cyclist, HSG is the most exciting product offering to come along since I started working at Serotta. It just seems to me that Kelly, the guys in R&D and production have really managed to put together frame packages that appeal to me as an enthusiast.

James

[Smiley]

OK James HSG IT and Nove which I know you own , please compare build differences ?

[CNY rider]

"I don't care for the name much either, but the bikes are pretty sweet."

Next time have a forum contest, I'm sure we could give a new model a proper name.

Mike

That really is a great idea. Let's have a naming contest for the next model. Give the winner something cool, like the chance to buy #0001 for cost.

[Serotta_James]

OK James HSG IT and Nove which I know you own , please compare build differences ?

HSG IT essentially has a stiff Nove rear combined with a carbon tubeset that is similar to the Nove set, but oversized and wrapped with the 12k weave.

[Dan Le foot]

The carbon one is still pretty spendy.

It sure is saab2000.
We have a Calfee Luna Pro in our stable. It cost $1500.
The HSG carbon is $4200!. There is nothing that I have read in Serotta's literature that would convince me of the significantly higher price point. Perhaps I missed something.
Here is Ben's claim from the site.

"In other words, these are better built, better tested with greater attention to detail than carbon bikes from leading competitors and they have the superior signature ride found in all Serottas".

My question is simply, why is that?

BTW.
My Legend Ti is my all time favorite bike. And we just added an Ottrott to the stable. So I'm not bashing Serotta.
Dan

[Serotta_James]

It sure is saab2000.
We have a Calfee Luna Pro in our stable. It cost $1500.
The HSG carbon is $4200!. There is nothing that I have read in Serotta's literature that would convince me of the significantly higher price point. Perhaps I missed something.
Here is Ben's claim from the site.

"In other words, these are better built, better tested with greater attention to detail than carbon bikes from leading competitors and they have the superior signature ride found in all Serottas".

My question is simply, why is that?

BTW.
My Legend Ti is my all time favorite bike. And we just added an Ottrott to the stable. So I'm not bashing Serotta.
Dan

Come to a demo event if you can sometime this year.

[manet]

Hysterosalpingogram (HSG) is a basic test for infertility and recurrent miscarriage that evaluates the fallopian tubes and uterus.


man! i wanna' ride one of 'em babies!

[zap]

James, I'm thinking about purchasing a Look 595 Ultra. What makes the HSG carbon better (build, detail) than the Look?

[mso]

C50 $4100.00 and includes great fork and beautiful paint options plus proven Tour de France competitor.

I don't get all the hype about a standard race geometry. As for Serotta's carbon offerings. I'm sure they will ride nicely, similiar to a Calfee,Colnago,Parlee but in my opinion I don't see anything that justifys the so much higher price for similiar product lines.

As for the Attack vs. HSG Carbon per James post it would seem that one is paying $600.00 for basically a custom bike, unsure but that's how I read it.

[CNY rider]

Come to a demo event if you can sometime this year.

James that was an incredibly diplomatic answer. Too bad it hasn't been rewarded as such.. :argue:

[Serotta_James]

James, I'm thinking about purchasing a Look 595 Ultra. What makes the HSG carbon better (build, detail) than the Look?


Let me first say that the Looks are some of the only bikes for which we jaded bike snobs here at Serotta hold real reverence. They're well made and that 595 is as sexy as bikes come. So, I'm disinclined to speak poorly of their product.

I'm also going to omit talking in detail about some of the fit and longevity issues associated with the integrated seat mast...

Instead, let's focus on the details. The difference between our stock bikes and ANY mass-produced stock bikes is going to come down to the level of detail that our limited-production business model affords us.

In direct comparison: HSG's use Ti hardware in place of aluminum - dropouts, BB and HT inserts, etc. The carbon on those bikes is produced by Reynolds (soon to be in-house) up to the quality standards that you would associate with that company and with us. Our finishing work is done in-house, is of superiour quality and there are several options for every stock bike. The QC level is beyond what any mass-production company will perform. Warranty is lifetime, versus a 5 year for the Look, I think. Ride quality should be similar, I would think. Certainly the HSG won't be less stiff than anything Look is producing.

[zap]

James. Thanks for your response.

[Simon Q]

Let me first say that the Looks are some of the only bikes for which we jaded bike snobs here at Serotta hold real reverence. They're well made and that 595 is as sexy as bikes come. So, I'm disinclined to speak poorly of their product.

I'm also going to omit talking in detail about some of the fit and longevity issues associated with the integrated seat mast...

Instead, let's focus on the details. The difference between our stock bikes and ANY mass-produced stock bikes is going to come down to the level of detail that our limited-production business model affords us.

In direct comparison: HSG's use Ti hardware in place of aluminum - dropouts, BB and HT inserts, etc. The carbon on those bikes is produced by Reynolds (soon to be in-house) up to the quality standards that you would associate with that company and with us. Our finishing work is done in-house, is of superiour quality and there are several options for every stock bike. The QC level is beyond what any mass-production company will perform. Warranty is lifetime, versus a 5 year for the Look, I think. Ride quality should be similar, I would think. Certainly the HSG won't be less stiff than anything Look is producing.

James last response sums it up. Is Serotta for the budget concious? Not in my view. I think Giants represent great value in terms of $/performance, especially some of the cheaper models, but I don't want a frame mass produced in Taiwan. I chose a Serotta for the build and detailing, the dropouts the finish etc, and knowing that it was produced by enthusiants in a small facility in upstate NY. All points that James makes well.

I am not saying that other non-mass produced frames don't have the same level of love, just that I and many others are prepared to pay for what Serotta produces. Many wouldn't and that's fine. Would I pay more again for a Serotta for my next frame rather than a Look, Calfee, Parlee or Colnago? 100% and I hope Serotta don't change a thing about how they go about their business.

[saab2000]

The truth hurts. Serottas are expensive. But I too wouldn't really change a thing about what they make or how they make it. Besides, value is not always the cheapest price.

The HSG bikes will be on my short list when the time comes to get a new one. The other bikes on that list will not be less expensive.

BTW, I am liking that they like Looks!!!! Mine is not a current one, but it means I may have picked well with the used one I have! Neato!

[1centaur]

The HSG bikes will be on my short list when the time comes to get a new one. The other bikes on that list will not be less expensive.


Any thoughts what the other bikes on the list would be?

[saab2000]

Any thoughts what the other bikes on the list would be?

Spectrum Ti
Time
Colnago C50
Look 585 Ultra

These are in my list of uberbikes. None of them cheap. All of them with a proven build and pedigree.

[soulspinner]

Thats my first 4 bikes of five, the fifth being a z-1 parlee

[Simon Q]

Not a generally a fan of integrated seatposts but if it was to be an off the rack the Carrera Ilos would be my no 1. Gorgeous. Custom (which as a tall guy I prefer) would be a Serotta 1,2 and 3. Can't tell you that they are the best, I just love 'em.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/tech/shows/?id=/photos/2006/tech/shows/eicma06/eicma063/EMil06-Carrera1

http://www.carrera-podium.it/eng/ilos.html#

[stevep]

Spectrum Ti
Time
Colnago C50
Look 585 Ultra

These are in my list of uberbikes. None of them cheap. All of them with a proven build and pedigree.


saab,
you steal a plane from the airline... sell it...you can buy record equipped versions of all of these.
just a thought.

[shinomaster]

saab,
you steal a plane from the airline... sell it...you can buy record equipped versions of all of these.
just a thought.

Steve, could you get Rustem to get me new cross bike?

[saab2000]

saab,
you steal a plane from the airline... sell it...you can buy record equipped versions of all of these.
just a thought.

Roger on the aircraft theft!!! The FBI, TSA, CIA and all the other acronyms will love me for that one!

Sometimes I also just look at my CIII and want to tell Serotta to make another one, a centimeter smaller with race-specific geometry and a pump peg and quit worrying about it all!! Sell my three bikes and replace them with one steel racing Serotta. Hmmm......

[Smiley]

Sometimes I also just look at my CIII and want to tell Serotta to make another one, a centimeter smaller with race-specific geometry and a pump peg and quit worrying about it all!! Sell my three bikes and replace them with one steel racing Serotta. Hmmm......
What would that take , a higher BB so the frame goes from a 57 to a 56 ? a cm longer TT and take off the head tube extension. Forget the HTA on the HSG , the end result is the same trail, if you want the trail faster now just go with a longer fork rake or just order your new bike with the old 73.5 HTA and keep the 43 mm rake for a 5.6 trail. No Biggie. I swear you'd all think Serotta never made a racing bike before. Geez its all been re-packaged for a new and improved product .

[saab2000]

What would that take , a higher BB so the frame goes from a 57 to a 56 ? a cm longer TT and take off the head tube extension. Forget the HTA on the HSG , the end result is the same trail, if you want the trail faster now just go with a longer fork rake or just order your new bike with the old 73.5 HTA and keep the 43 mm rake for a 5.6 trail. No Biggie. I swear you'd all think Serotta never made a racing bike before. Geez its all been re-packaged for a new and improved product .

I KNOW that Serotta has before and can again build a racing frame. But my CIII is not. It is a superb bike, to be sure, but in terms of the go-fast geo like the wooden Merckxspeed and Look it is not. Still, if I ABSOLUTELY HAD to sell 2 of the 3 main rides, the Serotta would prolly be the keeper.

Smiley, I like my Serotta. Don't misunderstand. But I can't tell them how to do the the geometry 'cuz I don't know geo.

If I had to say, I would tell them to make it one CM smaller, keep the TT the same, shorten the chainstays about 8 mm and do something to shorten up the front center.

But I am not a bike designer.

So if this idea turns to fruition I will go to a Serotta dealer with my Serotta, determine the desired contact points and instruct them on the desired handling and stiffness characteristics a al Look and Merckx.

This could happen. No joke.

As the loyal reader knows, I am very big on steel despite my recent infatuation with carbon.

Design trumps material any day. And steel is good anyway. So well-designed steel must be kicka$$...huh?

[93legendti]

I KNOW that Serotta has before and can again build a racing frame. But my CIII is not. It is a superb bike, to be sure, but in terms of the go-fast geo like the wooden Merckxspeed and Look it is not. Still, if I ABSOLUTELY HAD to sell 2 of the 3 main rides, the Serotta would prolly be the keeper.

Smiley, I like my Serotta. Don't misunderstand. But I can't tell them how to do the the geometry 'cuz I don't know geo.

If I had to say, I would tell them to make it one CM smaller, keep the TT the same, shorten the chainstays about 8 mm and do something to shorten up the front center.

But I am not a bike designer.

So if this idea turns to fruition I will go to a Serotta dealer with my Serotta, determine the desired contact points and instruct them on the desired handling and stiffness characteristics a al Look and Merckx.

This could happen. No joke.

As the loyal reader knows, I am very big on steel despite my recent infatuation with carbon.

Design trumps material any day. And steel is good anyway. So well-designed steel must be kicka$$...huh?

I think the CIII could have been ordered with custom geos. If I recall, you bought this used, right? So, my guess is if you had bought the CIII from Serotta you could have asked for a "racing bike" and you would have gotten one.

[saab2000]

I think the CIII could have been ordered with custom geos. If I recall, you bought this used, right? So, my guess is if you had bought the CIII from Serotta you could have asked for a "racing bike" and you would have gotten one.

Yes, my CIII was 'used'. But barely. I am absolutely NOT dissatisfied with the CIII. It has been and continues to be one of my favorite bikes for its obvious quality of construction and aesthetic. I like the bike. And like I say, it is not unsatisfying. But if I could change anything, I would make it a race bike. But as a buyer on a budget, beggars can't be choosers. This bike is a 'stock' CIII and I like it very much. I would not be faster on a racing CIII, but it would probably feel faster.

If I choose to replace the CIII with another Serotta steel, it will probably look almost identical. But it will have race bike geometry. But I am a sucker for a pretty face and the Serotta CIII I am lucky enough to own is the prettiest bike I have ever owned. Any successive steel Serotta will have an identical or nearly identical color scheme.

So there.

[EDS]

Anyone riding an HSG bike yet?

[mike p]

A custom Legend with a baseball bat sized seat tube at the bb and hsg geo with regular ti seatstays and red, white and natural sizzler paint job! I think I'd prefer that to about any bike out there. But by the time you add it all up the frame and fork would come to close to 5K. I've had 4 serottas, own 2 at the moment and will probably never buy another (maybee used) just because I can't justify that kind of money for a bike. No serotta bashing, I think there one of the best out there, but there now above my comfort level dollar wise.

Mike