Alaphilippe v. Vos

[LegendRider]

The Tour time trial in Pau covered similar roads to La Course (women's race). A cycling journalist (Lukas Knofler) Tweeted a comparison between the times of Julian Alaphilippe and Marianne Vos on what I believe are identical segments:

Alaphilippe on final km: 1'27"
Vos on final km : 1'29"
Alaphilippe on Rue Mulot: 12"
Vos on Rue Mulot: 12"

I don't have any context for the numbers other than Tour TT v. one day race and I'm assuming they're correct, but WOW! She's the female Eddy.

[Bruce K]

It’s information like this and increasing fan support that is contributing to the calls for equal pay and the return of the Women’s TdF.

Cool Statistics. It would be fun to see more comparisons.

BK

[FlashUNC]

Vos is God.

[David Kirk]

Vos is God.

+++++

dave

[fiamme red]

The Tour time trial in Pau covered similar roads to La Course (women's race). A cycling journalist (Lukas Knofler) Tweeted a comparison between the times of Julian Alaphilippe and Marianne Vos on what I believe are identical segments:

Alaphilippe on final km: 1'27"
Vos on final km : 1'29"
Alaphilippe on Rue Mulot: 12"
Vos on Rue Mulot: 12"

I don't have any context for the numbers other than Tour TT v. one day race and I'm assuming they're correct, but WOW! She's the female Eddy.This is a meaningless statistic. Didn't Vos win by 3 seconds or something like that? So the other women are pretty close to Alaphilippe too. Then why not have men and women race in the same field? :rolleyes:

[fiamme red]

It’s information like this and increasing fan support that is contributing to the calls for equal pay and the return of the Women’s TdF.I don't know about the public, but the media don't seem to care much about women's racing.

https://twitter.com/petercossins/status/1152183942352658437

[denapista]

Vos is boss!

I guess the context you can use for a comparison of effort, would be to factor in that Alaphillipe would have close to 1,400mi in his legs by the time he got to that ITT... The Tour covered 12 stages (2,200km) prior to that ITT....

It's like when some guy tries to pull you on the street randomly, after you've done a long day. He's probably just starting his ride, and I already have 9k of climbing in my legs on my cruise home.

We live in an era "Numbers don't lie!", without any context.. A guy who rode 1,400 miles puts in a the same time as a person with fresh legs, BUT THE TIMES ARE CLOSE!!

[fiamme red]

Vos is boss!

I guess the context you can use for a comparison of effort, would be to factor in that Alaphillipe would have close to 1,400mi in his legs by the time he got to that ITT... The Tour covered 12 stages (2,200km) prior to that ITT....

It's like when some guy tries to pull you on the street randomly, after you've done a long day. He's probably just starting his ride, and I already have 9k of climbing in my legs on my cruise home.

We live in an era "Numbers don't lie!", without any context.. A guy who rode 1,400 miles puts in a the same time as a person with fresh legs, BUT THE TIMES ARE CLOSE!!You also can't compare speeds in the bunch finish of a road race to those of an individual time trial. Apples and oranges.

[R3awak3n]

jeez, you guys must be real fun at parties :rolleyes:

[FlashUNC]

There's always highlight truthers.

[e-RICHIE]

jeez, you guys must be real fun at parties :rolleyes:

:cool::cool:;)
:cool::cool::)
;);):rolleyes:

[CSKeller]

I am just as interested in women's cycling as men's...it's just that men's racing gets far more press and coverage.

This year's Colorado Classic will hopefully start to change that with women only racing! I can't wait! I'm looking forward to it!

And yes, Marianna Vos is Queen of all she surveys!! She is amazing!!

[teleguy57]

Vos is God.

Voss is God. Clapton is God, ergo, Vos is Clapton!

[FlashUNC]

Voss is God. Clapton is God, ergo, Vos is Clapton!

Finkle is Einhorn! Einhorn is Finkle!

[galgal]

;)jeez, you guys must be real fun at parties :rolleyes:

Vos is Vos. Which is good enough, in fact great.

[pasadena]

It dismisses the false narrative that the womens pro peloton is slow and they are not world class cyclists.
This is a meaningless statistic. Didn't Vos win by 3 seconds or something like that? So the other women are pretty close to Alaphilippe too. Then why not have men and women race in the same field? :rolleyes:

Disgraceful by the media but there was a media scrum arranged at the finish line, that most of the media were allowed interview access to Vos.
They got their quotes and left.
I'm not defending their laziness, just adding info here.
https://twitter.com/MarkCavendish/status/1152217314605064193
I don't know about the public, but the media don't seem to care much about women's racing.

https://twitter.com/petercossins/status/1152183942352658437

[tctyres]

Finkle is Einhorn! Einhorn is Finkle!

+1

That's why Roger Podacter is dead! He found Captain Winky!

[Hellgate]

Wind? Longo?

[pbarry]

;)

Vos is Vos. Which is good enough, in fact great.



Amen.

[redir]

Voss is God. Clapton is God, ergo, Vos is Clapton!

Yeah but Zappa was always there in the background for anyone who was listening. The Zappa of womens cycling? Only time will tell.

[shoota]

Finkle is Einhorn! Einhorn is Finkle!

LOL I'm dead

[denapista]

It dismisses the false narrative that the womens pro peloton is slow and they are not world class cyclists.


That's the issue... It's a narrative (This specific one) that's not backed by facts or context. I'm far from saying women aren't as fast as men in the peloton, but this comparison is Apple Oranges. Throwing out loose numbers without context is a disservice to the Women pro ranks. The men were 12 stages in when you factor that into their TT times..

This coming from someone who likes watching the Woman's race as much as the men. The women races are full gas from the start. Thank big Baby Jesus for Redbull channel and the woman's MTB XC pro race. I hate watching Nino dominate race after race..

[pasadena]

It's an intersting metric, as both ran the same climb, the same day.

All the women on the podium and deeper, just came off the Giro Rosa 8 stages of hard racing, finishing up the equivalent of the Zoncolan, just a day or two before and did the longest block of stage racing they will all season.

This is not a disservice to womens racing. It shows the comparable speeds, on the same day on the same course.

The disservice to womens racing is marginalizing it with baseless attacks.
With data like this, it serves to show the women are indeed world class.

It's useful in shutting down naysayers.



That's the issue... It's a narrative (This specific one) that's not backed by facts or context. I'm far from saying women aren't as fast as men in the peloton, but this comparison is Apple Oranges. Throwing out loose numbers without context is a disservice to the Women pro ranks. The men were 12 stages in when you factor that into their TT times..

This coming from someone who likes watching the Woman's race as much as the men. The women races are full gas from the start. Thank big Baby Jesus for Redbull channel and the woman's MTB XC pro race. I hate watching Nino dominate race after race..

[echappist]

That's the issue... It's a narrative (This specific one) that's not backed by facts or context. I'm far from saying women aren't as fast as men in the peloton, but this comparison is Apple Oranges. Throwing out loose numbers without context is a disservice to the Women pro ranks. The men were 12 stages in when you factor that into their TT times..

This coming from someone who likes watching the Woman's race as much as the men. The women races are full gas from the start. Thank big Baby Jesus for Redbull channel and the woman's MTB XC pro race. I hate watching Nino dominate race after race..

I agree with the sentiment here

TT v non TT stage; numbers of stages in legs already; number of km in the legs prior to the segment; etc. None of these are the same; thus there really isn't any meaningful comparison to be made.

Which again, to reiterate @denapista's point, does not negate or detract from women's racing.

It's a physiological fact that even normalized for mass, the best female climber does 1 w/kg less than the best male climber at FTP. As exertions of all other duration are more or less at a comparable percentage of FTP, it naturally follows that a) the best woman can't be as fast as the best man, all other conditions equal, which also means that if the results are the same, something else is so tilted one way as to make any comparison lacking in meaning. But, to reiterate again, this slower riding gets a "so what" reaction from me. No, the best female classics riders can't blast up the Oude Kwaremont and Patersberg as fast as the best male classics riders, but that hardly matters.

That original twitter post is completely useless. It reminds me of people who'd massage and embellish a set of facts to try to make their arguments more convincing when there's no need to embellish in the first place.

Women's racing can and does stand on its own merits. Sure, it's a bit slower, but speed per se really isn't what drives tension and excitement in the first place, or else any obstacle that reduces speed (e.g. bad road surface, hills, altitude) would have been eliminated for the sake of speed per se. An attack is still an attack, a daring breakaway is still a daring breakaway, and to be caught after so many kilos in a break is still a shame, regardless of the speed of the rider.

I have been watching most women's racing ever since they became more readily available, and I will continue to watch, regardless of whether they might be slower than the men. Just don't try to tell me that those two efforts are in any way, shape, or form comparable.

I'll add that we've seen something similar before, namely how Van Vleuten bested all but two men on Strava for her stage finish on the Izoard in 2017. The article is written with little context given, and it's only when one digs a little that it becomes clear that there's a lot of cherry picking going on.

First was that a lot of male riders don't post on strava. Surely those who finished the last segments within 1 min of Bardet would have climbed that segment faster, but they aren't on Strava, so the narrative became Van Vleuten became third best. By that logic, I was once 2nd best to Joe Dombrowski on a popular climb in the Virginia Blue Ridges, but there would have been at least a hundred riders from the local area who could climb faster than I did at the time.

Then there's the lack of parity for the courses; the men having tackled an extra cat-1 climb and 60 more kilos than the women did, which surely dented things. Put both groups on the same course, and the climbing time would again not favor Van Vleuten.

Lastly, there's the selective picking of the climbing segment, which was the final 3 miles of the climb. Zoom out to the final 5 miles, all the sudden there are more who finished faster than she did on that day. The men went full bore from further out, while she was able to go at a lower intensity for longer before unleashing, but overall, her speed was still lower.

And the thing is, her relatively slower climbing speed really doesn't matter all that much in terms of the entertainment factor, but there are some who go for the embellishing regardless...

I know why people wrote the original headlines, but it was really intellectually dishonest. Same applies to the situation here...

[kramnnim]

I don't know about the public, but the media don't seem to care much about women's racing.

https://twitter.com/petercossins/status/1152183942352658437

Richard Moore of The Cycling Podcast said this regarding that tweet:

"This picture is not quite the full story. It’s taken from the interview truck, from where interviews are broadcast back to the press room, where journalists can ask questions. This was the case with Vos - I am told there were 15 or so journalists in the press room asking questions. Meanwhile, a lot of other journalists, including me, were at the buses interviewing riders there. For TV (and the podcast) the press conference is pointless - we can’t use the audio from it. Rose was waiting outside the truck to interview Vos there (as you’ll hear in Monday’s Km0).
So, a misleading picture. Which is disappointing."

[kramnnim]

And Orla from Eurosport's tweet- https://twitter.com/sportsorla/status/1152243740473528322

[kramnnim]

The Tour time trial in Pau covered similar roads to La Course (women's race). A cycling journalist (Lukas Knofler) Tweeted a comparison between the times of Julian Alaphilippe and Marianne Vos on what I believe are identical segments:

Alaphilippe on final km: 1'27"
Vos on final km : 1'29"
Alaphilippe on Rue Mulot: 12"
Vos on Rue Mulot: 12"

I don't have any context for the numbers other than Tour TT v. one day race and I'm assuming they're correct, but WOW! She's the female Eddy.

Did Lukas compare Greipel's solo TT time to the time of the women's peloton? https://www.strava.com/segments/19269380?filter=overall

Like echappist said, useless tweet.

[Louis]

As exciting as any men's finish: (sound starts a teeny bit late)

https://youtu.be/4FFVzc6qa0U