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slowpoke
07-16-2019, 07:49 PM
Has anyone heard of the idea that larger thighs help drive more blood to the heart, which means that folks with larger thighs need to focus more on their aerobic workouts?


[M]uscle mass in your legs can affect your cardiac zones in a way that can be deceptive. Here’s why: your veins in your legs have a series of one-way valves that prevent the blood from pooling in your legs since we walk upright and the legs hold a lot of blood. The one-way valves mean you can still move large volumes of blood from the legs without requiring a super high blood pressure.

When your muscles flex in your legs it actually *drives* blood to your heart and the heart rate responds sympathetically to accept the incoming blood. Some people call this a kind of “second” heart. However, when the legs are driving lots of blood volume to your heart while the *rate* increases to handle the incoming blood (making you think you’re in a higher zone) the *power* of the cardiac contraction (ergo actual cardiac training effect) can be less because legs have provided a service in moving the volume of blood along and refilling the heart.

Again, this is only relevant for people who have significant muscle mass in their legs — if you have slender legs genetically, then the volume/rate issue is balanced during exercise.

This effect is especially pronounced for people who have large muscle mass in their thighs, hamstrings and calves — their legs can drive a lot of blood to their heart and the heart responds accordingly by beating faster to accept the incoming blood. (Again, people’s muscle mass in their legs is determined again, by genetics and fitness). They might think they’re in X zone based on the rate, but not actually get the true cardiac benefit because of the amount of work in moving blood their legs are doing.


Source: Bob C. on SF Randonneurs, July 2018 (https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sfrandon/hHkpzmXeow8/Xw0l48pUAAAJ)

berserk87
07-17-2019, 09:16 AM
Never heard of this and I went cross-eyed trying to understand it. Does not make a lick of sense to me.

Mark McM
07-17-2019, 10:10 AM
This both does and doesn't make sense to me. I can see how leg contractions might cause an increase in the rate of the blood flow, and how the heart might respond with increased contraction rate. But on the other hand, it makes no sense that the increased heart rate might "fool" someone into thinking they are working harder then they are. After all, heart rates and exercise intensity zones are highly individual, and must be tailored on an individual basis; any affect leg muscle contractions might have would just be factored in when performing tests to determine exercise intensity zones.

MattTuck
07-17-2019, 10:38 AM
This has the feeling of pseudoscience.

If you have bigger muscles in your legs, wouldn't an alternate explanation simply be that your legs have higher demands for oxygen, and so your heart has to pump more?

We need a medical professional to weigh in on this.


If it is true, I have figured out why I never went pro. My muscular legs screwed up my training zones, and I spent years going too easy.

Ozz
07-17-2019, 10:52 AM
This has the feeling of pseudoscience.....

+1

It does have that feeling of "truthiness"....;)

Ruckusdog
07-17-2019, 11:27 AM
As a physiologist, I see the science behind this. Cardiac Output = Heart Rate x Stroke Volume, but at the same time the heart can’t pump out more blood than comes in. So, Cardiac Output = Venous Return. That is, the cardiac output depends on blood being returned to the heart through the veins. Regular contraction of the large muscles, coupled with the one-way valves in the veins, provides pumping action to ensure that Venous Return does not become rate limiting for Cardiac Output. However, this should apply equally to all rhythmically contracting legs regardless of size. I don’t follow the reasoning in the initial quote.

Heisenberg
07-17-2019, 12:10 PM
As a physiologist, I see the science behind this. Cardiac Output = Heart Rate x Stroke Volume, but at the same time the heart can’t pump out more blood than comes in. So, Cardiac Output = Venous Return. That is, the cardiac output depends on blood being returned to the heart through the veins. Regular contraction of the large muscles, coupled with the one-way valves in the veins, provides pumping action to ensure that Venous Return does not become rate limiting for Cardiac Output. However, this should apply equally to all rhythmically contracting legs regardless of size. I don’t follow the reasoning in the initial quote.

uh, yeah.

and anecdotally sounds like bull****. i have enormous legs (relative to the rest of me) mostly made of muscle (thanks dexa!). my cardiac/aerobic output is...not lacking. i know more than a few other bike riders in the same boat. i also know plenty of other bike riders with skinny legs with the same kind of aerobic output. doesn't seem to matter.

i love fake exercise science.

addendum: read more about his bizarre assumptions - again, my legs are big, but i can't sprint worth a ****. my peak wattage when i'm on a FT training regimen usually tops out at ~1300w on a good day, no matter how many off-season plyos, weights, or sprint work i do.

leg muscle size has little to do with how good you are at bikes or your cardiac output, atmo.