The Save the Planet thread

[marciero]

This is partially prompted by the make-up remover/wipes thread. I think we can talk about the environmental impact of our practices and the products we use without a) smugness, judging, or shaming of someone who, god forbid, might have used a disposable product, b) calling PC when someone advocates less impactful alternatives, c) drifting into the very concrete political implications.

Two things I’ve thought about are zip ties and nitrile gloves. Used zip ties have got to be much worse than straws, with a barb and sharp edges. In the past I’ve used these for all sorts of bike-related things but am going to make serious effort to eliminate for all but permanent or at least semi-permanent use. Cloth straps, Voile straps, rawhide shoelaces are some alternatives.

Nitrile gloves... These are hard for me to give up. THis can ease some of the guilt but I am dubious-they claim to recycle anything.
https://www.terracycle.com/en-US/zero_waste_boxes/disposable-gloves
Even if they are in fact recycling the waste products, recycling can have varying degrees of impact.
I think more permanent dishwaser-type gloves are a pretty straightforward solution, though you cant pick a dime...

Convenience items while touring are also troubling (to me anyway) like disposal of bottles and cans at convenience stores, not to mention junk food items and waste. Often (usually?) these stores do not have a recycling receptacle. One would have to carry the empty bottle in their pack until the next opportunity to recycle.

I am doing a short tour this week and may try to keep a record of my practices.

Another thing is air travel. I took one trip this year whose sole purpose was cycling. Maybe one trip per year is okay for me. I’m not sure. Each of us has to decide this type of thing for ourselves.

I’d be interested in people’s thoughts on these; again, without judgement.

[Clancy]

Sorry to be this cynical but....

I cut down my use of electricity by keeping the thermostat high, turn off lights when not in use, in order to minimize my impact on the environment.

Meanwhile, the stores in the local outdoor gigantic mall keep their doors wide open with cold air pouring out to make it more inviting for customers. This is in San Antonio!

(Couple years ago I wrote a letter to the mall owner’s pointing out the insane wastefulness of this practice, they responded by saying they have no control over their tenants. When commenting to a co-worker, she responded how nice it is to go shopping with a baby stroller and not to have to open doors. )

We have long pasted the tipping point.

Protecting rather than modifying capitalism has led to the destruction of our planet.

[oldpotatoe]

Another thing is air travel. I took one trip this year whose sole purpose was cycling.

I heard yesterday on NPR that ONE flight from LA to NY results in 32 square feet of arctic ice melting...Not sure how they get to that but aircraft are VERY dirty..comparatively.

BUT unless some of these items get scarce, maybe expensive, but scarce..don't expect use to change much. Few people do these things mentioned because 'it's good for the environment'..most use these items because they are cheap and plentiful.

Sorry, pretty cynical about this. Having national leaders poo-poo all this in the name of $ doesn't help.

WE probably aren't screwed(baby boomers) but our kids and most certainly or grand kids are...Watch Soylent Green again...

[peanutgallery]

How many billions of the earth's residents pay absolutely no mind to environmental concerns? What percentage struggles for basic food and clean water? Treehuggers are right but their concern is meaningless, the horse is out of the barn. The sheer number of resources that humans in general, and Americans in particular, suck thru is staggering. Humans are doomed, basically. Dark thought, but true

[oldpotatoe]

How many billions of the earth's residents pay absolutely no mind to environmental concerns? What percentage struggles for basic food and clean water? Treehuggers are right but their concern is meaningless, the horse is out of the barn. The sheer number of resources that humans in general, and Americans in particular, suck thru is staggering. Humans are doomed, basically. Dark thought, but true

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCCLqpAVg6Y

[peanutgallery]

But those 105 kits from the UK, what a deal...right?

Imagine, just the impact of Amazon prime?

I heard yesterday on NPR that ONE flight from LA to NY results in 32 square feet of arctic ice melting...Not sure how they get to that but aircraft are VERY dirty..comparatively.

BUT unless some of these items get scarce, maybe expensive, but scarce..don't expect use to change much. Few people do these things mentioned because 'it's good for the environment'..most use these items because they are cheap and plentiful.

Sorry, pretty cynical about this. Having national leaders poo-poo all this in the name of $ doesn't help.

WE probably aren't screwed(baby boomers) but our kids and most certainly or grand kids are...Watch Soylent Green again...

[peanutgallery]

I'm looking forward to subterranean living and developing the ability to dodge bullets in slow motion:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCCLqpAVg6Y

[Tickdoc]

I heard yesterday on NPR that ONE flight from LA to NY results in 32 square feet of arctic ice melting...Not sure how they get to that but aircraft are VERY dirty..comparatively.

BUT unless some of these items get scarce, maybe expensive, but scarce..don't expect use to change much. Few people do these things mentioned because 'it's good for the environment'..most use these items because they are cheap and plentiful.

Sorry, pretty cynical about this. Having national leaders poo-poo all this in the name of $ doesn't help.

WE probably aren't screwed(baby boomers) but our kids and most certainly or grand kids are...Watch Soylent Green again...

I heard all trees would vanish from the planet when I was about 10yoa. At the time I loved to draw and I asked for paper for my birthday present because I was so scared of losing all the trees and not having paper. It never occurred to me that the loss of toilet paper would have posed a much greater hardship if that disastrous scenario had occurred.

That galvanized my distrust of scientific reports and data and also led to my disbelief that we are causing any of this warming. The planet is warming because that what it do. We are in that cycle and it will cool and warm and cool and warm again ad infinitum.

I'm going to drink through plastic straws and wear nitrile gloves while wiping myself with the best damn products I can find.:banana:

Recycle, reuse (well, not the wipes;), and conserve when you can. I love the thought of harnessing power from your best available resources whatever they may be, but I am thoroughly unconvinced that this fear mongering is the proper use of science. The salvation of $100k all electric cars does not help anything. It does nothing to minimize the ecological deficit it provides. You just can't convince me otherwise.

I realize I am in the minority here, but my conscience can't allow me to believe things that are unproven or illogical. I am terrible at maths but this math just doesn't work for me.

[oldpotatoe]

I heard all trees would vanish from the planet when I was about 10yoa. At the time I loved to draw and I asked for paper for my birthday present because I was so scared of losing all the trees and not having paper. It never occurred to me that the loss of toilet paper would have posed a much greater hardship if that disastrous scenario had occurred.

That galvanized my distrust of scientific reports and data and also led to my disbelief that we are causing any of this warming. The planet is warming because that what it do. We are in that cycle and it will cool and warm and cool and warm again ad infinitum.

I'm going to drink through plastic straws and wear nitrile gloves while wiping myself with the best damn products I can find.:banana:

Recycle, reuse (well, not the wipes;), and conserve when you can. I love the thought of harnessing power from your best available resources whatever they may be, but I am thoroughly unconvinced that this fear mongering is the proper use of science. The salvation of $100k all electric cars does not help anything. It does nothing to minimize the ecological deficit it provides. You just can't convince me otherwise.

I realize I am in the minority here, but my conscience can't allow me to believe things that are unproven or illogical. I am terrible at maths but this math just doesn't work for me.

Uh oh.....Ya know gravity is a theory as well, as is evolution...:)

gonna go get the popcorn.

[mcteague]

I heard all trees would vanish from the planet when I was about 10yoa. At the time I loved to draw and I asked for paper for my birthday present because I was so scared of losing all the trees and not having paper. It never occurred to me that the loss of toilet paper would have posed a much greater hardship if that disastrous scenario had occurred.

That galvanized my distrust of scientific reports and data and also led to my disbelief that we are causing any of this warming. The planet is warming because that what it do. We are in that cycle and it will cool and warm and cool and warm again ad infinitum.

.

Far too many "scientific" stories you hear have been heavily filtered through the mainstream media. If you read the actual report you would likely find it quite nuanced with various degrees of probability depending on different outcomes. That is all too much detail for TV and most papers. So, it gets dumbed down to so much click bait.

Tim

[Tickdoc]

Far too many "scientific" stories you hear have been heavily filtered through the mainstream media. If you read the actual report you would likely find it quite nuanced with various degrees of probability depending on different outcomes. That is all too much detail for TV and most papers. So, it gets dumbed down to so much click bait.

Tim

I was beginning to doubt there was an actual report.

[dbrown]

I grew up when most restaurants didn’t provide a straw unless you requested one. In my family, they were requested only when we thought someone was likely to spill their drink if they were just drinking from the glass. Now, it seems every restaurant gives a straw automatically. The only time I use a straw is if I am in the car and have a cup from a fast food place. Why do people use a straw in sit down restaurants?

[marciero]

..

That galvanized my distrust of scientific reports and data and also led to my disbelief that we are causing any of this warming. The planet is warming because that what it do. We are in that cycle and it will cool and warm and cool and warm again ad infinitum.

I'm going to drink through plastic straws and wear nitrile gloves while wiping myself with the best damn products I can find.:banana:

...


As interesting and important as climate change (as opposed to warming) is as a topic of discussion- man's impact on it, what we need to do or else, etc. I think it's just too huge and potentially thread-closing to argue or discuss here. I certainly dont want to argue science. I had intended to confine the discussion to cycling-related practices (though I'm not the boss of anyone here, and it's probably unrealistic)

So you are using nitrile gloves... I just now used a pair to remove and clean some tubeless tires. They went in the can in the garage. But I am telling/promising myself that I will recycle all those...

[weisan]

Our attitudes towards the planet cannot be separated from our attitudes towards our fellow human beings and other aspects of life. They are all inter-connected. One bleeds into another.

I sort of chuckle every time I encounter a self-professed "animal lover" who openly declares that, if given the opportunity", they would run over cyclists with their cars.

Or the early morning walker who picks up trash while making their rounds around their neighborhood, got home and saw some neighborhood kids hanging around their front porch and screamed "Get off my lawn!"

You see the irony.

My point is not to demand the perfect scenario.

But merely to point out that, caring for our planet and caring for others, are in essence the same - it starts with a mindfulness of the bigger picture and ends with taking personal responsibility to effect change.

[marciero]

Uh oh.....Ya know gravity is a theory as well, as is evolution...:)

gonna go get the popcorn.

Good point. All of physics is theory. Actually, my prior comment notwithstanding, the idea of scientific theory is another thing worth discussing-maybe here, maybe not. It's pretty clear to me that many do not understand what a scientific theory is and is not, and its purpose and limitations.

[Clancy]

I realize I am in the minority here, but my conscience can't allow me to believe things that are unproven or illogical. I am terrible at maths but this math just doesn't work for me.

The ignorance of climate change deniers is staggering and unfortunately not in the minority.

And the reason we are beyond the tipping point.

But really, who cares! Bring on Amazon Prime Days!

Staggering

[Elefantino]

One of the last, and most memorable, performances by a brilliant satirist. Bears repeating here when we talk about saving the planet vs. ourselves.

Whatever your politics (arguably the greatest and most consequential tragedy in human history is how the environment became political), we are *long* past the tipping point.

Your individual contributions matter only in that you can tell your children and grandchildren that you tried.



There is nothing wrong with the planet, nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The people are ****ed. Difference. Difference. The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the planet is doin’ great! It’s been here four and a half billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. We’ve been here, what? A hundred thousand? Maybe two hundred thousand and we’ve only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion. And we have the conceit to think that somehow we’re a threat? That somehow we’re gonna put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that’s just a floatin’ around the sun? The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sunspots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles, hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids, and meteors, world-wide floods, tidal waves, world-wide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages, and we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference?

The planet isn’t going anywhere. We are! We’re goin’ away. Pack your ****, Folks, we’re goin’ away. We won’t leave much of a trace either, thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam, maybe, little styrofoam. Planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake, an evolutionary cul de sac. The planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas, a surface nuisance. You wanna know how the planet’s doin’? Ask those people at Pompeii, who were frozen into position from volcanic ash. How the planet’s doin’. Wanna know if the planet’s alright, ask those people in Mexico City or Armenia, or a hundred other places buried under thousands of tons of earthquake rubble if they feel like a threat to the planet this week. How about those people in Kilauea, Hawaii, who built their homes right next to an active volcano and then wonder why they have lava in the living room. The planet will be here for a long, long, long time after we’re gone and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself ’cuz that’s what it does. It’s a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it’s true that plastic is not degradable well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allows us to be spawned from it in the first place: it wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it, needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old philosophical question, “Why are we here?” “Plastic, ***holes.”

So, so, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now.

[Mzilliox]

there is no impact a single person can have that is meaningful. nothing short of massive policy change and cultural change is going to do the job.

this does include shaming poor behavior, as i know no other way to make 30% of the humans on this planet care. the planet is way more important than a few fragile egos to me.

this isnt just about climate change. you guys spend time outdoors, (well most of you do anyway). you see the signs, its pretty obvious we are not taking care of things.

Im very pessimistic, to the point i decided no kids. how can one not be?

[Mzilliox]

I heard all trees would vanish from the planet when I was about 10yoa. At the time I loved to draw and I asked for paper for my birthday present because I was so scared of losing all the trees and not having paper. It never occurred to me that the loss of toilet paper would have posed a much greater hardship if that disastrous scenario had occurred.

That galvanized my distrust of scientific reports and data and also led to my disbelief that we are causing any of this warming. The planet is warming because that what it do. We are in that cycle and it will cool and warm and cool and warm again ad infinitum.

I'm going to drink through plastic straws and wear nitrile gloves while wiping myself with the best damn products I can find.:banana:

Recycle, reuse (well, not the wipes;), and conserve when you can. I love the thought of harnessing power from your best available resources whatever they may be, but I am thoroughly unconvinced that this fear mongering is the proper use of science. The salvation of $100k all electric cars does not help anything. It does nothing to minimize the ecological deficit it provides. You just can't convince me otherwise.

I realize I am in the minority here, but my conscience can't allow me to believe things that are unproven or illogical. I am terrible at maths but this math just doesn't work for me.

this is shocking. do you only ride zwift now? the math doesnt need to work, we arent doing math. our understanding of natural workings is nowhere near complete, there is more we do not know than we do know. but we can all see patterns... unless our heads are buried in the sand

[Davist]

One thing that has become apparent, even if you/me are thinking we're doing the right thing (in this case recycling being incinerated) in some cases it is not being done by those whom we trust to do..

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2019/04/08/philadelphia-recycling-incinerator/

China refusing recycling (known as "foreign garbage" ie not being recycled there either):
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/climate/recycling-landfills-plastic-papers.html

Back to the OP, why are you using so many cable ties that you worry about recycling? I view them as semi permanent, like a fender mount for the winter. They (original nylon ty-raps) should be recyclable, and there are re usable options. I also use Velcro (real Velcro brand) tape (double sided loops on one side/hooks on other) from Joann fabrics for most bike things (like when the fake Velcro wears out on saddle bags, or to hold a frame pump, etc)

[Kirk007]

Interesting questions - what to do? does it make a difference? If it doesn't make a difference should I do it anyway?

As someone who walked away from a lucrative career in the private practice of law to pursue the Quixodic quest to do my part to save the nonhuman species on earth, I ask myself these questions frequently.

What to do? What you can. Will it matter or makle a difference? Maybe, but I've been at this a long time and many/most times I go through this mental exercise I conclde no, we're screwed. But then I put that out of mind and carry on. Why?

In my view there are only two fundamental choices: excercise individual responsibility and do what you can in hopes that we find a way out of this mess or essentially say it's hopeless so I'm just gonna live my life without regard. When I look at or think of my son, I choose the former. For me it's that simple.

So I say do what you can and you are comfortable with, whether its fewer airline flights, giving up (or eating less beef), recycling nitrile gloves and not using zip ties. But none of us are perfect and few if any of us will live a life of truly minimal impact. That makes it easy for others to point fingers and cry hypocrite, and factually they're not wrong. But if we let perfect be the enemy of the good then surely we are doomed.

There are now about 7.7 homo sapiens on earth. Two hundred years ago we numbered about 1 million. Each individual eats, craps, uses, consumes. Consumes what? Goods grown, raised or manufactured on this little green orb in space. Are resources disappearing? Google is coming out with an interesting tool that allows one to view time elapsed aerial photos showing landscape level changes over reasonably long periods of time (forgetting the name right now but will look for it) - it's impactful - pictures worth a thousand words - and demonstrates some of the changes we have wrought.

While we've raised the earth's capacity to grow food and accomodate us because we are very clever, if you think about it every conflict on earth can be reduced to issues of control and power that are fundamentally tied to resource scarcity and control, and with a changing climate expect those conflicts to worsen. Why do folks think many people are trying to migrate elsewhere, like to here. When the place that you have lived your life is sinking into the sea or desolately dry and unable to provide, what do you do? When the resources in your country are controlled by a different tribe that believes there's only enough for members of that tribe and no "others" what do you do? If you are powerful and determine there are insufficient resources for your tribe, and your neighbors are weak, what happens?

Unless you believe that homo sapiens are not animals like all the rest of the species on earth, it's not hard to observe populations dynamics, behaivor and what happens when species are confronted by scarcity. And its easy to read books about how we have migrated across continents, laying waste to food sources, like fisheries and other resources., and then looking for the next supply. We have not escaped fundamental ecological and biological realities, and at some point I fear the consequences for all life on earth will be severe.

[fiamme red]

There are now about 7.7 homo sapiens on earth. Two hundred years ago we numbered about 1 million. Each individual eats, craps, uses, consumes. Consumes what? Goods grown, raised or manufactured on this little green orb in space. Are resources disappearing? Google is coming out with an interesting tool that allows one to view time elapsed aerial photos showing landscape level changes over reasonably long periods of time (forgetting the name right now but will look for it) - it's impactful - pictures worth a thousand words - and demonstrates some of the changes we have wrought.It was interesting to see the chronological aerial views of Bothwell Ranch in San Fernando Valley from 1947 to 2002: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/11/us/southern-california-orange-grove.html.

In Orange County, NY, farmland has disappeared quickly during my lifetime, making way for sprawling McMansions with huge lawns. Now that we get cheap food from overseas, local farming is unprofitable.

[Mzilliox]

Very well said. I like your style
we keep on because we have only this life to get right, and i intend to live this life my best. that doesnt mean lazy easy "best" with technology and yachts and cheating and running people over. that means leaving my slice of earth better than i found it. this lazy way forward humans have taken, grabbing resources at will and creating just as much waste is really weird, and no way to characterize a best way to live.

Interesting questions - what to do? does it make a difference? If it doesn't make a difference should I do it anyway?

As someone who walked away from a lucrative career in the private practice of law to pursue the Quixodic quest to do my part to save the nonhuman species on earth, I ask myself these questions frequently.

What to do? What you can. Will it matter or makle a difference? Maybe, but I've been at this a long time and many/most times I go through this mental exercise I conclde no, we're screwed. But then I put that out of mind and carry on. Why?

In my view there are only two fundamental choices: excercise individual responsibility and do what you can in hopes that we find a way out of this mess or essentially say it's hopeless so I'm just gonna live my life without regard. When I look at or think of my son, I choose the former. For me it's that simple.

So I say do what you can and you are comfortable with, whether its fewer airline flights, giving up (or eating less beef), recycling nitrile gloves and not using zip ties. But none of us are perfect and few if any of us will live a life of truly minimal impact. That makes it easy for others to point fingers and cry hypocrite, and factually they're not wrong. But if we let perfect be the enemy of the good then surely we are doomed.

There are now about 7.7 homo sapiens on earth. Two hundred years ago we numbered about 1 million. Each individual eats, craps, uses, consumes. Consumes what? Goods grown, raised or manufactured on this little green orb in space. Are resources disappearing? Google is coming out with an interesting tool that allows one to view time elapsed aerial photos showing landscape level changes over reasonably long periods of time (forgetting the name right now but will look for it) - it's impactful - pictures worth a thousand words - and demonstrates some of the changes we have wrought.

While we've raised the earth's capacity to grow food and accomodate us because we are very clever, if you think about it every conflict on earth can be reduced to issues of control and power that are fundamentally tied to resource scarcity and control, and with a changing climate expect those conflicts to worsen. Why do folks think many people are trying to migrate elsewhere, like to here. When the place that you have lived your life is sinking into the sea or desolately dry and unable to provide, what do you do? When the resources in your country are controlled by a different tribe that believes there's only enough for members of that tribe and no "others" what do you do? If you are powerful and determine there are insufficient resources for your tribe, and your neighbors are weak, what happens?

Unless you believe that homo sapiens are not animals like all the rest of the species on earth, it's not hard to observe populations dynamics, behaivor and what happens when species are confronted by scarcity. And its easy to read books about how we have migrated across continents, laying waste to food sources, like fisheries and other resources., and then looking for the next supply. We have not escaped fundamental ecological and biological realities, and at some point I fear the consequences for all life on earth will be severe.

[2LeftCleats]

Great response, Kirk! Well written.

To quote ‘The Graduate’, “One word. Plastics.” I find it appalling how much of what we buy is packaged in non-degradable, non- recyclable material. Sometimes it’s the best way to protect an item but most often it’s a nuisance and unnecessary. The recyclers in the last 2 cities I’ve lived in (and I think it reflects the national reality) have severely restricted what plastic they accept. So it ends up in landfills and oceans.

I’m no fan of Wal-mart, but it is such a huge player, that it can demand changes in packaging and shipping that are more environmentally friendly. My belief is that while whatever things we can do personally are important and example-setting, the real change must come at the societal level. It’s encouraging to see corporations, states, and cities do an end-run around our complacent national government.

[daker13]

I took marciero's original post to be asking, what can we cyclists--or let's say, the cyclists who care about such things--do to reduce our carbon footprint?

There's a related problem, though: in asking about the ways we can reduce our footprint on the planet, we inevitably have to deal with the question of whether any of these actions are 'worth it.' And this leaves the door open to anyone who doesn't believe that humans play a role in climate change, doesn't believe in climate change at all, doesn't think we can or should do anything about it, etc.

I'd prefer if the thread set aside the larger questions about climate change and simply focused on material things like the ones marciero mentioned--nitrile gloves, etc. Clearly environmentally friendly products form a distinctly successful market within the cycling community--citrus degreaser, things like that. And cycling itself is obviously an 'environmentally friendly' practice.

Granted, the meta questions are hard to ignore. But I think most of us are familiar with the various arguments for and against belief in climate change.

Here's a meta question, for example: I read recently that 100 companies are responsible for 70% of global warming (though this statistic has been disputed--surprise, surprise). So some argue that it's irresponsible to focus on individual consumer acts, when global warming isn't actually a result of you riding a bike to the post office, rather than taking your car.

Still, I'd be curious to hear people's ideas about what specific things we bike riders can do to reduce waste--assuming that it makes a difference.

[echappist]

I heard all trees would vanish from the planet when I was about 10yoa. At the time I loved to draw and I asked for paper for my birthday present because I was so scared of losing all the trees and not having paper. It never occurred to me that the loss of toilet paper would have posed a much greater hardship if that disastrous scenario had occurred.

That galvanized my distrust of scientific reports and data and also led to my disbelief that we are causing any of this warming. The planet is warming because that what it do. We are in that cycle and it will cool and warm and cool and warm again ad infinitum.

I'm going to drink through plastic straws and wear nitrile gloves while wiping myself with the best damn products I can find.:banana:

Recycle, reuse (well, not the wipes;), and conserve when you can. I love the thought of harnessing power from your best available resources whatever they may be, but I am thoroughly unconvinced that this fear mongering is the proper use of science. The salvation of $100k all electric cars does not help anything. It does nothing to minimize the ecological deficit it provides. You just can't convince me otherwise.

I realize I am in the minority here, but my conscience can't allow me to believe things that are unproven or illogical. I am terrible at maths but this math just doesn't work for me.

funny that one so highly trained in one area of the sciences can be so irreverently glib when it comes to other areas. And do please spare us of what your conscience does or doesn't allow you to do. You want to conserve, fine; you feel it's too inconvenient, fine, but spare of us your "conscience" causing you to reflexively dismiss scientific reports. It's just your solipsism in action.

the whole climate change "debate" is well settled in just about every other developed country, including those of conservative political persuasions. Of course, whether conservative leaning politicians do anything of substance is another fact altogether, but at least they don't deny it.

that said, you are right about the "salvation of $100k all electric cars". Unless the electricity is recharged using hydro, wind, nuclear (horrors, /s), it's just a less direct way of burning of fossil fuel or coal

Interesting questions - what to do? does it make a difference? If it doesn't make a difference should I do it anyway?

As someone who walked away from a lucrative career in the private practice of law to pursue the Quixodic quest to do my part to save the nonhuman species on earth, I ask myself these questions frequently.

What to do? What you can. Will it matter or makle a difference? Maybe, but I've been at this a long time and many/most times I go through this mental exercise I conclde no, we're screwed. But then I put that out of mind and carry on. Why?

In my view there are only two fundamental choices: excercise individual responsibility and do what you can in hopes that we find a way out of this mess or essentially say it's hopeless so I'm just gonna live my life without regard. When I look at or think of my son, I choose the former. For me it's that simple.



well said and cogent

[Tickdoc]

funny that one so highly trained in one area of the sciences can be so irreverently glib when it comes to other areas. And do please spare us of what your conscience does or doesn't allow you to do. You want to conserve, fine; you feel it's too inconvenient, fine, but spare of us your "conscience" causing you to reflexively dismiss scientific reports. It's just your solipsism in action.

the whole climate change "debate" is well settled in just about every other developed country, including those of conservative political persuasions. Of course, whether conservative leaning politicians do anything of substance is another fact altogether, but at least they don't deny it.

that said, you are right about the "salvation of $100k all electric cars". Unless the electricity is recharged using hydro, wind, nuclear (horrors, /s), it's just a less direct way of burning of fossil fuel or coal



well said and cogent

I'm far from Solipsistic, I'm just not convinced. I love science, I love knowledge, I love learning, and I value education, but in this case You can't prove it. Get me an independently written scientific paper of merit that proves it is not just a "next earth cycle" warming and I'll consider it. Until then, I'm unconvinced.

Thanks for the Carlin quote, BTW. Carlin was brilliant. I had the pleasure of hearing that bastard live a few months before he died.

[makoti]

I heard all trees would vanish from the planet when I was about 10yoa. At the time I loved to draw and I asked for paper for my birthday present because I was so scared of losing all the trees and not having paper. It never occurred to me that the loss of toilet paper would have posed a much greater hardship if that disastrous scenario had occurred.

That galvanized my distrust of scientific reports and data and also led to my disbelief that we are causing any of this warming. The planet is warming because that what it do. We are in that cycle and it will cool and warm and cool and warm again ad infinitum.

I'm going to drink through plastic straws and wear nitrile gloves while wiping myself with the best damn products I can find.:banana:

Recycle, reuse (well, not the wipes;), and conserve when you can. I love the thought of harnessing power from your best available resources whatever they may be, but I am thoroughly unconvinced that this fear mongering is the proper use of science. The salvation of $100k all electric cars does not help anything. It does nothing to minimize the ecological deficit it provides. You just can't convince me otherwise.

I realize I am in the minority here, but my conscience can't allow me to believe things that are unproven or illogical. I am terrible at maths but this math just doesn't work for me.

Jesus.
Did your 25/45/65 y/o self ever stop to wonder why the trees DIDN'T disappear? Perhaps because people realized the direction things were headed and made changes? I'm quite sure if the 10 y/o version of you had really listened, he would have heard the phrase "At current rates". At one time, this was true. We clear cut with abandon. Now, we still cut way too many trees so you can continue to wipe your selfish butt with the softest paper, but we at least try to manage how we do it. We try to reach a balance. We make an effort. We are failing, but we continue to try. Most of us, anyway.
I'm sorry the maths don't work for you. They work fine for 95% of scientists, and every developed country save the US. Perhaps it's time you checked your work a bit more closely.

[Ozz]

This was an interesting series to watch....like most History Channel shows, they could get to the point in 10 minutes but they drag it out for 30....

https://www.history.com/shows/doomsday-10-ways-the-world-will-end

BTW - Love the George Carlin quote....heard that years ago...he did sum it up nicely.

[pdonk]

Someone else posted recently, better to have lots of people doing a bit then a few people being perfect.

What I am trying to do:

Use the train/public transit to get to ride locations / ride out/train home.
Reusable lunch tubs.
Buy as much locally grown food as possible. - Eat in season.
Not introducing my daughter to straws.
Reusable shopping bags.
Keep house a bit cooler in winter. Can't win warmer in summer argument though.


Mea culpa things

CO2 cartridges and new tubes after a flat
Ride food/drinks
My daughter obsesses about paper towel - she'll grow out of it.
Not car pooling to work with my wife, even though we work less than a mile from eachother.
Not taking transit to work - even though the subway is a mile from my office - the first and last miles are hell, plus it takes 40 minutes more than driving
Plastic wrap and bags.

[FlashUNC]

To crib from Carlin -- who said it better than I could -- the planet will continue on. Whether we're able to continue as part of it and using it as our one and only home? Yeah, I think we've passed the point gets us back to anything resembling equilibrium.

I, for one, look forward to the orange groves in London and looming water and resource wars.

[echappist]

https://www.utc.edu/center-reflective-citizenship/images/cole1.jpg
https://www.utc.edu/center-reflective-citizenship/images/cole2.jpg
https://www.utc.edu/center-reflective-citizenship/images/cole3.jpg
https://www.utc.edu/center-reflective-citizenship/images/cole4.jpg
https://www.utc.edu/center-reflective-citizenship/images/cole5.jpg

[timto]

We do a number of things that might qualify as consideration for the environment:


We adjust purchasing behavior - going with a do without, or make do, repair, reuse, second hand, library, hand me downs approach
We live central - chose smaller and closer living that enables us to car free which includes grocery getting, school and work commuting.
We adjust our definition of fun - we go play at the park, walk along the river, throw Frisbee
We reduced our income on purpose - we spend less and have more time and consider each purchase more carefully.


We enjoy a high quality of life despite not doing/having the best of the best. I hope we are setting a good example for our kids too. Years ago my wife and I took our family out of the rat race - for a better work / life balance we decided to reduce income , reduce spending. We still live well but probably running on 50% of the income we used to when we were both contractors. We've struggled a little adjusting but our eyes have been opened to the waste and cycle of consumerism and 'busy' work we were part of.

I feel more in tuned with needs, and in touch with the value of $

[spoonrobot]

https://www.utc.edu/center-reflective-citizenship/images/cole1.jpg
https://www.utc.edu/center-reflective-citizenship/images/cole2.jpg
https://www.utc.edu/center-reflective-citizenship/images/cole3.jpg
https://www.utc.edu/center-reflective-citizenship/images/cole4.jpg
https://www.utc.edu/center-reflective-citizenship/images/cole5.jpg[

:hello:

[Mzilliox]

Part of the issue to me seems to be exactly this. people dont actually want to take on the real issue, they want to skirt around it with little pat on the back actions that lead no no meaningful change. For this to mean anything at all, this is exactly the kind of civil discussion that must take place. "i feels" and "i likes", dont do anything for the environment. our egos have no place in the discussion

I took marciero's original post to be asking, what can we cyclists--or let's say, the cyclists who care about such things--do to reduce our carbon footprint?

There's a related problem, though: in asking about the ways we can reduce our footprint on the planet, we inevitably have to deal with the question of whether any of these actions are 'worth it.' And this leaves the door open to anyone who doesn't believe that humans play a role in climate change, doesn't believe in climate change at all, doesn't think we can or should do anything about it, etc.

I'd prefer if the thread set aside the larger questions about climate change and simply focused on material things like the ones marciero mentioned--nitrile gloves, etc. Clearly environmentally friendly products form a distinctly successful market within the cycling community--citrus degreaser, things like that. And cycling itself is obviously an 'environmentally friendly' practice.

Granted, the meta questions are hard to ignore. But I think most of us are familiar with the various arguments for and against belief in climate change.

Here's a meta question, for example: I read recently that 100 companies are responsible for 70% of global warming (though this statistic has been disputed--surprise, surprise). So some argue that it's irresponsible to focus on individual consumer acts, when global warming isn't actually a result of you riding a bike to the post office, rather than taking your car.

Still, I'd be curious to hear people's ideas about what specific things we bike riders can do to reduce waste--assuming that it makes a difference.

[bigbill]

As a nation, we're far better than we were a few decades ago. We get most of our wood products from the Southeast US where there's a 10 month growing season. We use yellow pine for much of our pulp needs, yellow pine grows like weeds. We put scrubbers on coal fire plants, we shifted towards natural gas which is still fossil fuel but burns cleaner and more efficiently, we're constantly increasing our solar and wind generation plus increasing the efficiency of the generators, and our cars are more efficient.

The negative is our growing dependency on electricity. Electric cars, trucks, increased reliance on the internet, all those things are putting a strain on our electrical grid. Our grid has to be updated and we need to add nuclear power plants for the clean energy to supply it.

Other nations such as India, China, Viet Nam, Indonesia, etc are decades behind the US in moving away from high polluting sources of energy. They're growing their economy to be a world player just like the US did in the 40's and 50's where we polluted the living **** out of our nation to do so. China has abundant coal reserves, how do we tell them not to burn coal? India is a technological powerhouse but their infrastructure is ancient and inefficient. They're going to pollute to keep their place in the economy. It's pretty much hypocritical for the US criticize them for doing what we did, but it affects the whole planet, so something has to be done.

As far as global climate change, specifically warming, increased amounts of CO2 push up into the atmosphere, higher and higher as the concentration increases. The temperature required by our atmosphere to process this gas is pretty much a constant. The issue is the higher up the CO2 travels, the hotter it is in the upper atmosphere. That translates to higher temperatures at lower elevations all the way to the surface. That's just science.

[Ozz]

...You can't prove it. Get me an independently written scientific paper of merit that proves it is not just a "next earth cycle" warming and I'll consider it. Until then, I'm unconvinced.....

What if you are wrong? Other than you (and others that believe like you) not be around for the consequences...

[Elefantino]

I swear that sometimes I think I'm living in an Onion world run by flat-earthers who believe in the Easter Bunny.

[gasman]

Tickdoc-

There are actually a ton of well written scientific papers talking about global warming and the impact humans have had on the Earth. It just takes some time to seek them out and read them.
The UN report on climate :

https://library.wmo.int/doc_num.php?explnum_id=5789

While simplistic, covers the science at a superficial but accurate level.

Your correct that the Earth has gone through many cycles of warming and cooling but looking at the paleoclimate records those cycles took millions of years to occur. Not the current 100-200 year warming that we've seen that 97% of climate scientists say is largely human caused.

As others have eluded to, there are just too many people on this planet using too many resources and stressing the carrying capacity of the planet.

Though my thoughts align with George Carlin, one of my favorite comics ever.
The planet will still be here in a million years though I'm positive we won't be around.

[notsew]

Folks that have decided they just need to see "real science" to be convinced can't be convinced. It's a belief, not a lack of information.

Also for y'all talking about recycling nitrile gloves....that **** is not recyclable, no way no how. You send that to the recycler and its going to end up in a river in Bangladesh and then the ocean. People need to come to terms with the fact that plastic is basically not recyclable - especially that kind of stuff. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just trying to assuage your guilt and support your consumerism. Just throw that **** in the garbage, at least that way it has a better chance of ending up in a landfill here in the good ol' USofA where we have a couple regulations left.

[FlashUNC]

Tickdoc-

There are actually a ton of well written scientific papers talking about global warming and the impact humans have had on the Earth. It just takes some time to seek them out and read them.
The UN report on climate :

https://library.wmo.int/doc_num.php?explnum_id=5789

While simplistic, covers the science at a superficial but accurate level.

Your correct that the Earth has gone through many cycles of warming and cooling but looking at the paleoclimate records those cycles took millions of years to occur. Not the current 100-200 year warming that we've seen that 97% of climate scientists say is largely human caused.

As others have eluded to, there are just too many people on this planet using too many resources and stressing the carrying capacity of the planet.

Though my thoughts align with George Carlin, one of my favorite comics ever.
The planet will still be here in a million years though I'm positive we won't be around.

Thanos was right.

[cgolvin]

Opportune timing for me as recent purchases made me think about one specific contributor to excess waste that is highly relevant to cycling.

Background: I decided to try a new brand of hydration/nutrition. My default is Skratch, which I buy in bulk, but I wanted to try Maurtens and they're very specific about the water to mix ratio so only sell in individual packets. The site I bought from threw in a few bonus items, again individual hydration/gel packets.

I'm not comfortable using these products because of the ratio of waste to powder/gel. OK, fine, I won't buy them, just trying to minimize my own impact. But I think these companies could do a lot better, and given their target audience they could likely offset any increase in packaging costs by clearly communicating to their customers that their choices are based in reducing negative environmental impact.

I don't have concrete ideas beyond selling in bulk packaging with resealable single use containers, but then again most companies have staff responsible for package design and they have the knowledge and experience to bring solutions forward.

Now I need to ride my bike down to the local co-op to refill my peanut butter jar. Damned hippie granola cruncher.

[Tickdoc]

Folks that have decided they just need to see "real science" to be convinced can't be convinced. It's a belief, not a lack of information.


I am convincible and would love nothing more than to be convinced, I just haven't seen it yet. I am not a climate change outlier, just a very skeptical person.

[FlashUNC]

I am convincible and would love nothing more than to be convinced, I just haven't seen it yet. I am not a climate change outlier, just a very skeptical person.

Just start with the level of CO2 in our atmosphere.

https://climate.nasa.gov/system/content_pages/main_images/203_co2-graph-061219.jpg

[Ozz]

Thanks "Flash".....that chart is scary as hell....but are you sure NASA knows anything about the atmosphere?? ;-)

[makoti]

I swear that sometimes I think I'm living in an Onion world run by flat-earthers who believe in the Easter Bunny.

It does feel that way, doesn't it?

[bigbill]

Just start with the level of CO2 in our atmosphere.

https://climate.nasa.gov/system/content_pages/main_images/203_co2-graph-061219.jpg

And for the skeptics, I'll add this to explain the process.

https://www.climate.gov/taxonomy/term/3415

[daker13]

Folks that have decided they just need to see "real science" to be convinced can't be convinced. It's a belief, not a lack of information.

This. In this very thread, there's a post saying the author "distrusts scientific reports and data" at the same time that he doesn't believe in human-powered climate change because he hasn't seen the "science." So how anyone is going to convince someone like that of anything, or why they would even want to, is beyond me.

[makoti]

I am convincible and would love nothing more than to be convinced, I just haven't seen it yet. I am not a climate change outlier, just a very skeptical person.

You should talk with my girlfriend. She's an ambassador for 5gyres (https://www.5gyres.org/), and over the past few years really opened my eyes to what is happening. Mostly in plastic pollution, but it led to thinking about other things. Once you really look at the trash YOU create, the damage YOU do, it's hard to keep doing it.
I no longer use plastic bags at the store, lettuce doesn't need to be in a plastic bag, potatoes can be rung up while loose. I tap the "jars" I buy food in to see if there's one in glass. As stated by someone, I won't buy individually wrapped items unless that is the ONLY way they come. I buy bulk more. I make my own chamois creme, laundry detergent, dishwasher detergent, conditioner for my hair. I keep & reuse as many plastic containers as I can find a use for. I'm not buying any more MAAP bibs, because the wonderfully comfortable ones I just bought came with a totally useless, unnecessary silicone/plastic tag with "MAAP" on it that overlays another CARDBOARD one.
The fact that doing right also saves me money is just an added bonus.
Are any of these things going to save the planet? No. But if I do this, you do a little, everyone on this board does something, maybe the planet will get a bit cleaner for those who come after us.

[redir]

I heard all trees would vanish from the planet when I was about 10yoa. At the time I loved to draw and I asked for paper for my birthday present because I was so scared of losing all the trees and not having paper. It never occurred to me that the loss of toilet paper would have posed a much greater hardship if that disastrous scenario had occurred.

That galvanized my distrust of scientific reports and data and also led to my disbelief that we are causing any of this warming. The planet is warming because that what it do. We are in that cycle and it will cool and warm and cool and warm again ad infinitum.

I'm going to drink through plastic straws and wear nitrile gloves while wiping myself with the best damn products I can find.:banana:

Recycle, reuse (well, not the wipes;), and conserve when you can. I love the thought of harnessing power from your best available resources whatever they may be, but I am thoroughly unconvinced that this fear mongering is the proper use of science. The salvation of $100k all electric cars does not help anything. It does nothing to minimize the ecological deficit it provides. You just can't convince me otherwise.

I realize I am in the minority here, but my conscience can't allow me to believe things that are unproven or illogical. I am terrible at maths but this math just doesn't work for me.

As a geologist let me explain a few things. First of all we are NOT headed to a period of warming and in fact are in an interglacial period headed for cooling and another ice age. You and I won't be around to see it but it's coming.

As for climate change think about this for a second. Trees are essentially like solar panels except instead of producing energy directly from the sun they store the energy in the form of wood or in time as coal. There are sea creatures too called diatoms that collect energy from the sun and over time store it in the ground as oil.

So it took about 300 million years of trapping and storing the suns energy in the form of fossil fuels. It's really hard to imagine geologic time but that's a heck of a long time and a whole lot of energy from the sun stored inside the earth.

Oil was discovered lets just say 600 years ago. It really only started getting used in the 1800's.

So we are about to burn up 300 million years of the suns energy in about 600 years. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that as a problem.

[CunegoFan]

Folks that have decided they just need to see "real science" to be convinced can't be convinced. It's a belief, not a lack of information.

I hear ya. It has been obvious for decades that nuclear energy can replace carbon producing power plants, but the science deniers have fought this green energy to a standstill while pretending they care about the environment. Sad.

[FlashUNC]

I hear ya. It has been obvious for decades that nuclear energy can replace carbon producing power plants, but the science deniers have fought this green energy to a standstill while pretending they care about the environment. Sad.

Green on the front end. It's the back-end and the unexpected that's the problem.

[Elefantino]

There are some Europeans (and probably a few Americans) who believe Chernobyl was a giant Kremlin hoax perpetrated to convince Western Europe to stop building nuclear power plants and use more Russian oil and gas.

[Red Tornado]

I grew up when most restaurants didn’t provide a straw unless you requested one. In my family, they were requested only when we thought someone was likely to spill their drink if they were just drinking from the glass. Now, it seems every restaurant gives a straw automatically. The only time I use a straw is if I am in the car and have a cup from a fast food place. Why do people use a straw in sit down restaurants?

I spent a little time in my youth working as a dishwasher in a restaurant - not a fast food joint. What I saw there made me never want to drink from a re-used plastic/glass cup in a restaurant again, without a straw.

[rain dogs]

but my conscience can't allow me to believe things that are unproven or illogical. I am terrible at maths but this math just doesn't work for me.

I'm just not convinced. I love science, I love knowledge, I love learning, and I value education, but in this case You can't prove it.

I am convincible and would love nothing more than to be convinced, I just haven't seen it yet. I am not a climate change outlier, just a very skeptical person.

If any of what you write above is true, I can, in ten minutes, tell you everything you need to know, if you have any basic grasp on three concepts:

1. How concentrations of substances increase in a closed system
2. The first and second laws of Thermodynamics
3. The carbon cycle and it's influence on the biosphere (the life-supporting part of the planet)

However, typing it all out would be tedious.... so maybe by fate we cross paths over beer.

OR

you could look up those concepts (since they are proven and logical) and since you love learning should be able to put it together and convince yourself in about 2 hours.

Just start here, and forgive me for the brevity: The biosphere is a closed system *as far as climate/photosynthesis/carbon go. Energy and matter are not created nor destroyed they are conserved *nothing "disappears". Matter always disperses from greater concentration to lesser - entropy *just cause you can't see it... Carbon is constant, but "locked" outside of the biosphere (in the lithosphere for example) until it is introduced into the biosphere by man (mining, petroleum etc.)...

yadda yadda, concrentrations, thermodynamics, the carbon cycle above^^^

Climate change.

If you disagree with the fundamental building blocks of science that have been proven, like gravity, while you might as well argue gravity too as Old Spud said.

Keep going....all the science is out there.

[RFC]

uh oh.....ya know gravity is a theory as well, as is evolution...:)

gonna go get the popcorn.

lol!!!

[Seramount]

plastic pollution in marine ecosystems is ubiquitous.

it'll be another notable nail-in-the-coffin for silly humans...

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/05/plastic-bag-mariana-trench-pollution-science-spd/

[velotel]

I'm constantly amazed at how in every 'conversation' about climate change and man no one mentions the number one problem, even though the subject was raised rather extensively and clearly as long ago as the 50s and even before, namely population. There are simply too many people on this planet, maybe 4, 5 times too many. Even if everyone was super careful about their uses of the climate, the results would remain negative because there are too many of us. Had the world restricted itself to 2 children per couple in the 50s or 60s, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in. if in the 80s every man had been restricted to producing one child, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in.

People use resources. The more people there are, the more resources used. The more resources used, the more waste produced. It's all rather simple.

The obvious fly in the ointment is capitalism and its need for constant growth. Unrestricted, uncontrolled growth is called cancer in the medical world. Humans, despite our remarkable talents and intelligence, are the cancer of this planet. So, we'll eventually die because we've killed what we live on. The planet will still be here and isn't measuring the time, at least to our knowledge. We're not even big enough to be considered a bump in the road.

But what a friggin, stupid thing to have done! A stunningly beautiful world and we're destroying it. No wonder no alien life has ever contacted us. They took one look and said, those whatever they are are nuts, don't touch them!

So, like so many others, I do what I can to limit my impact. Had one child immediately followed by a vasectomy, our consumption in the house is pretty low compared to norms, but could be better of course and in fact steadily improves. But, I'm not sure what for because as so many have also said, we're doomed. Thus why bother. But I do anyway, as best I can. For all those with more than one child, I always wonder what in the heck they're going to tell their children when the truth arrives that their future doesn't exist. Crazy and tragic and so damned needless. Just for a few dollars more.

[FlashUNC]

I'm constantly amazed at how in every 'conversation' about climate change and man no one mentions the number one problem, even though the subject was raised rather extensively and clearly as long ago as the 50s and even before, namely population. There are simply too many people on this planet, maybe 4, 5 times too many. Even if everyone was super careful about their uses of the climate, the results would remain negative because there are too many of us. Had the world restricted itself to 2 children per couple in the 50s or 60s, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in. if in the 80s every man had been restricted to producing one child, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in.

People use resources. The more people there are, the more resources used. The more resources used, the more waste produced. It's all rather simple.

The obvious fly in the ointment is capitalism and its need for constant growth. Unrestricted, uncontrolled growth is called cancer in the medical world. Humans, despite our remarkable talents and intelligence, are the cancer of this planet. So, we'll eventually die because we've killed what we live on. The planet will still be here and isn't measuring the time, at least to our knowledge. We're not even big enough to be considered a bump in the road.

But what a friggin, stupid thing to have done! A stunningly beautiful world and we're destroying it. No wonder no alien life has ever contacted us. They took one look and said, those whatever they are are nuts, don't touch them!

So, like so many others, I do what I can to limit my impact. Had one child immediately followed by a vasectomy, our consumption in the house is pretty low compared to norms, but could be better of course and in fact steadily improves. But, I'm not sure what for because as so many have also said, we're doomed. Thus why bother. But I do anyway, as best I can. For all those with more than one child, I always wonder what in the heck they're going to tell their children when the truth arrives that their future doesn't exist. Crazy and tragic and so damned needless. Just for a few dollars more.

Do I know a guy for you:

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/es0br70k3C3mw4hf1fgItGCNkPw=/0x0:1280x705/1200x800/filters:focal(323x177:527x381)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/60325351/thanos.0.jpeg

[jtbadge]

Climate science denial is so weird.

[Elefantino]

I continue to wonder where we'd be now if someone other than Al Gore had been the messenger.

[Llewellyn]

I don't think there is the political will to make the really hard decisions that would need to be made, and in the end a lot of people think that changes to consumption and lifestyle are essential..........as long as it's someone else making them.

I'm pessimistic and basically the human race (and the planet) is f****d. But my wife and I keep doing whatever little things we can.

[Seramount]

I stop and pick up 98% of recyclables I encounter on my daily rides. it's what I do to help the planet. I'm an environmentalist with OCD.

but, now I'm reading that China and Africa have dramatically reduced the amount of materials they will accept, so recyclables are simply landfilled, incinerated, or dumped in the ocean.

we're totally losing the battle on waste management.

[fa63]

I work on a project related to climate change. I was discussing with a friend the other day, who was very doom-and-gloom about our prospects and seemed to be suggesting we might as well throw in the towel and focus on adaptation instead of mitigation.

I tried to let him know that while we may indeed be quickly approaching the "point of no return", we still need to focus on mitigation, because otherwise keeping up with adaptation is going to be increasingly more challenging...

For us, we don't have kids (the biggest offender, though we had other equally important reasons for not wanting them), we compost and recycle, don't buy unnecessary stuff, I commute on an e-bike, our house is very energy efficient, and we are largely meat free (I am vegetarian; my wife eats very little meat). It does feel like a battle that can't be won at times, but also feels good to know that we are doing what we can.

[spoonrobot]

I continue to wonder where we'd be now if someone other than Al Gore had been the messenger.

Why? The vast majority of environmental impact in the last 25 years has been from areas that the western world has no or minimal influence upon.

Climate change became much less driven by the USA/Europe in the mid/late 1990s. India, China and Africa are now the main drivers of each and every environmentally destructive process or category under study - with the exception of Nickel mining for rechargeable batteries - Canada has that one wrapped up forever.

However, it's extremely hard to discuss and almost impossible to publish any research as most work is decried as racist, caught and killed by the country under study or buried in some other way. I work with a team of scientists that was deported from India after their climate change study for the period 1900-2010 in Uttar Pradesh was sent for review.

So, like so many others, I do what I can to limit my impact. Had one child immediately followed by a vasectomy

What a sad thing to read.

[texbike]

Thanos was right.

^This is funny (and kind of depressing). It's definitely in line with Velotel's perspective.

I was hesitant to even open this thread and wade into the discussion. The subject really depresses me. I agree with Carlin's position that the earth will be fine in the long run. We really are just a fleeting blight on the planet. However, from an ethical and religious perspective, it depresses me how much we've F'd this place up and how much life we've destroyed in the name of blatant capitalism and consumerism (says the guy with 10 plus bikes and a huge SUV.). I think it's more a feeling of guilt that I (and we) haven't been better stewards of the gift that we've been given.

In my adult life, I've made the effort to be fairly conscious (for the most part) and make life choices that align with the need to conserve and protect the environment and life as much as possible. However, there really is only so much that we can do. That realization came to me about 15 years ago when I was working on a public service project and helping in a local Goodwill recycling center. Seeing the piles of crap stacked to the ceiling in that one single facility made me realize that we have produced so much unnecessary junk that puts a massive strain on our resources just to produce, ship, store, and sell all of it. And then, there's the disposal aspect of it. Consumerism and capitalism are the two biggest human forces that are wrecking our planet's natural state and negatively impacting our own physical and mental health.

We do a number of things that might qualify as consideration for the environment:


We adjust purchasing behavior - going with a do without, or make do, repair, reuse, second hand, library, hand me downs approach
We live central - chose smaller and closer living that enables us to car free which includes grocery getting, school and work commuting.
We adjust our definition of fun - we go play at the park, walk along the river, throw Frisbee
We reduced our income on purpose - we spend less and have more time and consider each purchase more carefully.


We enjoy a high quality of life despite not doing/having the best of the best. I hope we are setting a good example for our kids too. Years ago my wife and I took our family out of the rat race - for a better work / life balance we decided to reduce income , reduce spending. We still live well but probably running on 50% of the income we used to when we were both contractors. We've struggled a little adjusting but our eyes have been opened to the waste and cycle of consumerism and 'busy' work we were part of.

I feel more in tuned with needs, and in touch with the value of $

This is great! Wonderful choices! I never considered the lower levels of consumerism that would accompany lower levels of income, but it makes perfect sense. Great, basic idea. Duh. ;)

I continually try to communicate the basic message to my family - stop buying so much junk that we don't need! Reducing the number of purchases can have a positive impact on so many levels.

Texbike

[FlashUNC]

Argh. I was hesitant to even open this thread and wade into the discussion. However, the above is funny and in line with Velotel's perspective.



If it's any consolation, Ra's Al-Ghul was also right. But Batman's stopped him several times. He eventually ran out of Lazarus Pits I think.

[texbike]

If it's any consolation, Ra's Al-Ghul was also right. But Batman's stopped him several times. He eventually ran out of Lazarus Pits I think.

^haha! Thanks for bringing a bit of levity to the discussion. :)

[makoti]

What a sad thing to read.

Why? I think it's responsible & likely well considered. We don't all need or want 2+ children.

[Hellgate]

So in 500,000 years none of the will matter. Humans will be gone and the planet will go a different direction, it always has.

IF humans want to make a difference, it's not straws and plastic bags, it's birth control.

Ready to be banned...

[redir]

Climate science denial is so weird.

I saw a tweet the other day that went something like this:

"I shouldn't know your view on climate change just because I know your views on gun control."

Somewhere along the lines they figured out that they can marry together various culture war attributes and pack them into silo's that will become votes, and it works.

[OtayBW]

A few points:

--- We seem to be the only species on the planet that is intent on destroying its own nest.

--- Whether you believe that there is a linkage between Man's influence on climate change - oh, let's just call it GLOBAL WARMING because we can measure that and know it's factual - or not, if you look at the 'hockey stick' trends of atmospheric CO2 since the ~beginning of the Industrial Revolution, you almost have to be blind, or blatantly unwilling to even accept the possibility that it could be Man-induced. To just dismiss this out of hand because you don't accept the science, or that you feel you may 'know better', is just nutz, IMO!

--- Even if the worst catastrophic effect happened and we literally destroyed out ability to sustain life on this planet, the universe would go on, unaffected. We are just a blip.....

[parallelfish]

I was hesitant to even open this thread

And I have a bridge for sale.

[FlashUNC]

^haha! Thanks for bringing a bit of levity to the discussion. :)

I distinctly remember a terrible episode of Sliders, the awful group Quantum Leap-esque sci-fi story of the week show on Fox in the late 90s, where the group lands in a place where humanity has instituted a death lottery to preserve the resources on the planet.

Oh here it is: https://sliders.fandom.com/wiki/Luck_of_the_Draw

God that show was terrible.

[jlwdm]

I stop and pick up 98% of recyclables I encounter on my daily rides. it's what I do to help the planet. I'm an environmentalist with OCD.

but, now I'm reading that China and Africa have dramatically reduced the amount of materials they will accept, so recyclables are simply landfilled, incinerated, or dumped in the ocean.

we're totally losing the battle on waste management.

Yes. Paper bags are bad. Cotton reusable grocery bags are not great.

Jeff

[zap]

Don't underestimate mother nature. For example, half the human population could be wiped out by a superbug.

But while we are still here we can all do a little better. I plan on planting more trees and shrubs.

[Tickdoc]

You should talk with my girlfriend. She's an ambassador for 5gyres (https://www.5gyres.org/), and over the past few years really opened my eyes to what is happening. Mostly in plastic pollution, but it led to thinking about other things. Once you really look at the trash YOU create, the damage YOU do, it's hard to keep doing it.
I no longer use plastic bags at the store, lettuce doesn't need to be in a plastic bag, potatoes can be rung up while loose. I tap the "jars" I buy food in to see if there's one in glass. As stated by someone, I won't buy individually wrapped items unless that is the ONLY way they come. I buy bulk more. I make my own chamois creme, laundry detergent, dishwasher detergent, conditioner for my hair. I keep & reuse as many plastic containers as I can find a use for. I'm not buying any more MAAP bibs, because the wonderfully comfortable ones I just bought came with a totally useless, unnecessary silicone/plastic tag with "MAAP" on it that overlays another CARDBOARD one.
The fact that doing right also saves me money is just an added bonus.
Are any of these things going to save the planet? No. But if I do this, you do a little, everyone on this board does something, maybe the planet will get a bit cleaner for those who come after us.

What kind of bottles do you use on your bike?

[93svt96]

So in 500,000 years none of the will matter. Humans will be gone and the planet will go a different direction, it always has.

IF humans want to make a difference, it's not straws and plastic bags, it's birth control.

Ready to be banned...

Yup , way to many people

[93svt96]

Mars , here we come

[Mikej]

https://www.trutv.com/shows/adam-ruins-everything/blog/adams-sources/adam-ruins-going-green.html

[Llewellyn]

Why? I think it's responsible & likely well considered. We don't all need or want 2+ children.


Completely agreed, more people should be doing it

[Llewellyn]

Mars , here we come


Yeah right

[93svt96]

Yeah right

I have no doubt some day we will be inhabitants of another planet.

[mj_michigan]

So in 500,000 years none of the will matter. Humans will be gone and the planet will go a different direction, it always has.

.

Why go that far out? During the last ice age, only 15K years ago, the place I am sitting right now was buried under 1 mile thick ice. If it was like last winter's polar vortex period, must have been very unpleasant.

Another thing is, we don't really know what are environmental consequences of any action. I read somewhere that, CO2 wise, commuting by bike is equivalent to driving a Prius hybrid. That's how much energy (and other things) is needed to put extra calories on my plate.

Finally, life has always had a major impact on the planet. For example, all the oxygen we breathe has biological origin. The limestone, mountains of it, too.

[Llewellyn]

I have no doubt some day we will be inhabitants of another planet.

Sorry but even with the greatest optimism in the world there's no way we could establish a viable population or colony of any significant size on Mars (or any other planet) before humans die out. And it's a gigantic waste of money anyway - money better spent trying to save the planet we're already on.

[pbarry]

Sorry but even with the greatest optimism in the world there's no way we could establish a viable population or colony of any significant size on Mars (or any other planet) before humans die out. And it's a gigantic waste of money anyway - money better spent trying to save the planet we're already on.

Those measly facts won’t stop us! Let’s eff up another planet before it’s too late.

[93svt96]

Those measly facts won’t stop us! Let’s eff up another planet before it’s too late.

We will probably eff it up but we will do it.

[makoti]

What kind of bottles do you use on your bike?

Seriously? You think you're scoring points with this? Plastic ones I've had for years. And while I'm on rides, I rarely buy anything in a plastic bottle to drink. I got stuck once this year, not at all last year.
Learn the difference between single use & reusable. Nobody expects you to go totally plastic free, just don't use silly, wasteful single use stuff that you use for 3min & the planet gets stuck with for 500 years.

[pbarry]

Why go that far out? During the last ice age, only 15K years ago, the place I am sitting right now was buried under 1 mile thick ice. If it was like last winter's polar vortex period, must have been very unpleasant.

Another thing is, we don't really know what are environmental consequences of any action. I read somewhere that, CO2 wise, commuting by bike is equivalent to driving a Prius hybrid. That's how much energy (and other things) is needed to put extra calories on my plate.

Finally, life has always had a major impact on the planet. For example, all the oxygen we breathe has biological origin. The limestone, mountains of it, too.

Frame builder in Marin once told me that the riding miles needed to offset the building of a steel frame was around 15k miles; for Ti it was 30k; Carbon was 50k. Numbers above are approximate as that conversation was 25 years ago, but you get the idea. Even our baubles/bikes have a cost beyond what we pay in $.

[peanutgallery]

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5b18735a3917ee20d18a2117/1546988590061-NW815D7HNWBJOMVR4J3V/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kNvT88LknE-K9M4pGNO0Iqd7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUq MSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqp eNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1USOFn4xF8vTWDNAUBm5ducQhX-V3oVjSmr829Rco4W2Uo49ZdOtO_QXox0_W7i2zEA/ns75FqFLk1v6jEmecgu25IOk8yB.jpg

The Apocalypse is nigh

[pbarry]

^^ Well done! I wanna be on the school bus.

[gasman]

I have no doubt some day we will be inhabitants of another planet.

I'm much less optimistic. The cosmic radiation on just a 8 month trip to Mars will fry your brain let alone the fact there will still be no real protection on the Martian surface.
The Apollo astronauts had to deal with only a few days exposure. The astronauts in the ISS still have the same protection of the Earth's magnetosphere that keep high energy charged particles from bombarding us daily. They just have a little less because of their altitude.
Mars has no magnetosphere therefore there's no protection from cosmic radiation on the surface. The only way to block most cosmic radiation is with water or lead. Both pretty darn heavy to send into space. You can always live underground but those are some mighty big holes to dig on another planet.
We'll never see another planet terraformed in our lifetime .

[93svt96]

I'm much less optimistic. The cosmic radiation on just a 8 month trip to Mars will fry your brain let alone the fact there will still be no real protection on the Martian surface.
The Apollo astronauts had to deal with only a few days exposure. The astronauts in the ISS still have the same protection of the Earth's magnetosphere that keep high energy charged particles from bombarding us daily. They just have a little less because of their altitude.
Mars has no magnetosphere therefore there's no protection from cosmic radiation on the surface. The only way to block most cosmic radiation is with water or lead. Both pretty darn heavy to send into space. You can always live underground but those are some mighty big holes to dig on another planet.
We'll never see another planet terraformed in our lifetime .

I understand, I think we can eventually figure it out. If not mars somewhere else. We have some incredibly smart people and tech just keeps going.

[fiamme red]

I understand, I think we can eventually figure it out. If not mars somewhere else. We have some incredibly smart people and tech just keeps going.Can those incredibly smart people figure out how to save our planet?

[93svt96]

Can those incredibly smart people figure out how to save our planet?
Past the point of no return

[fa63]

Not quite there yet (to the best of the scientific community's ability to predict), but we are headed that way quickly.

Past the point of no return

[CunegoFan]

I understand, I think we can eventually figure it out. If not mars somewhere else. We have some incredibly smart people and tech just keeps going.

Interstellar travel is not possible because of the distances and the most inhospitable place on earth is better than the most hospitable place on Mars or Venus or the moons of Jupiter and Saturn. We are stuck here.

With Africa set to triple its population to four billion by the end of the century we are pretty much screwed. Unless a good plague comes along then we are headed towards scenes from the movie Children of Men.

[FlashUNC]

I'm much less optimistic. The cosmic radiation on just a 8 month trip to Mars will fry your brain let alone the fact there will still be no real protection on the Martian surface.
The Apollo astronauts had to deal with only a few days exposure. The astronauts in the ISS still have the same protection of the Earth's magnetosphere that keep high energy charged particles from bombarding us daily. They just have a little less because of their altitude.
Mars has no magnetosphere therefore there's no protection from cosmic radiation on the surface. The only way to block most cosmic radiation is with water or lead. Both pretty darn heavy to send into space. You can always live underground but those are some mighty big holes to dig on another planet.
We'll never see another planet terraformed in our lifetime .

Counterpoint: The Fantastic Four were created by inadequate shielding in their spaceship to protect against cosmic rays. Maybe we'll all just get superpowers instead of, you know, leukemia.

[gasman]

Counterpoint: The Fantastic Four were created by inadequate shielding in their spaceship to protect against cosmic rays. Maybe we'll all just get superpowers instead of, you know, leukemia.

That is too dang funny !

[oldpotatoe]

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5b18735a3917ee20d18a2117/1546988590061-NW815D7HNWBJOMVR4J3V/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kNvT88LknE-K9M4pGNO0Iqd7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUq MSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqp eNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1USOFn4xF8vTWDNAUBm5ducQhX-V3oVjSmr829Rco4W2Uo49ZdOtO_QXox0_W7i2zEA/ns75FqFLk1v6jEmecgu25IOk8yB.jpg

The Apocalypse is nigh

Doomsday preppers aren't all that wrong altho when the SHTF, it will collapse pretty quickly and the human race will get what it deserves. Somebody mentioned 'political will' and 'Mars'..We have a guy sitting in the big chair who said climate change was a Chinese hoax..going to Mars is another way to have this same guy pump up his ego on twitter(Space Force? OMFG). For him, it's all about $ and 'winning', even tho neither makes any sense in the long run, when it comes to SURVIVAL...

We(humans) seem to be on a slightly better path..good thing POTUS is term limited..now just get that for the rest of government(including SCOTUS)..

As has been mentioned..population is the problem..water will be the next 'thing' fought over...I predict a real, large pandemic..that 'might' be the human race's salvation...:eek:

[dancinkozmo]

Can those incredibly smart people figure out how to save our planet?

if they actually did figure out a way, people would probably question the science and call it a hoax

[verticaldoug]

Don't underestimate mother nature. For example, half the human population could be wiped out by a superbug.


Nature doesn't really work that way. Unless the bug is designed by man for that purpose..... its not something to worry about.

[RKW]

I'll be long dead before any of this matters.

On the opinion continuum between "Total farce and OMG we need to do something right now!" I'm somewhere in the middle.

[makoti]

Nature doesn't really work that way. Unless the bug is designed by man for that purpose..... its not something to worry about.

Overuse of antibiotics is leading to drug resistant viruses. One of those bad boys turns deadly, it could get ugly.

[FlashUNC]

I understand, I think we can eventually figure it out. If not mars somewhere else. We have some incredibly smart people and tech just keeps going.

Easiest way will probably be the Zeta Beam that brought Adam Strange from an archaelogical dig site in South America to the planet Rann. There, he's a champion of the people and defender against all threats with his jetpack and laser gun. He now flip flops back and forth with no control over when it happens. Again, like a terrible version of Quantum Leap, only pre-dating Quantum Leap by about 4 decades.

https://cdn2.penguin.com.au/covers/original/9781401272951.jpg

[FlashUNC]

That is too dang funny !

http://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/images/misc/origin9.jpg

[Mzilliox]

This thread illustrates the problem. Some general awareness followed by a near complete unwillingness to change our cush lifestyles. And of course there are too many people. One can look at stats of where the biomass is now vs a while ago. Its shocking to find how humans and our food animals have displaced nature. You may not have the computing power to comprehend how complex these systems are. thats ok.nobody understands. But if we destroy these systemstheres a good chance we destroy ourselves. Probably a good thing. The creatures created in gods image are trashing the place for everyone else

[gasman]

Overuse of antibiotics is leading to drug resistant viruses. One of those bad boys turns deadly, it could get ugly.

Remember antibiotics only work on bacteria, not viruses. But your point is well taken . Overuse of antibiotics in people is problem but another huge problem is when they’re used in animal feed.

[54ny77]

Where are interest rates headed?

:D

[makoti]

Remember antibiotics only work on bacteria, not viruses. But your point is well taken . Overuse of antibiotics in people is problem but another huge problem is when they’re used in animal feed.

Sadly, I knew that. Correction warranted & noted.

[makoti]

The creatures created in gods image are trashing the place for everyone else

Don't blame dogs. They are doing just fine.

[redir]

Speaking of Mars. When that really cool Mars movie came out a few years ago, 'The Martian' I think it was Kimmel of someone like that who went on the street to interview people and it was shocking to see how many people thought it was actually real.

Yeah, we're fckd.

[AngryScientist]

So to get back to marciero's original post, what are some of the micro things we can do as cyclists specifically?

i think cycling, comparatively speaking is a pretty low environmental impact sport to begin with, but there is always improvements to be made.

-old tires? admittedly i just throw them out - is there something better i can be doing with these?

-less impulse purchasing/more disciplined purchasing habits - seems there is at least one, sometimes two Amazon deliveries to my house every day. in the era of free shipping, it's easy to just order stuff as the thought arises, but it definitely makes sense to consolidate to get less individual trips.

-i want to get better at home made ride snacks. i love the waffle things, and my wife had a recipe for a while to make them at home, i feel like that's better than pre-packed stuff.

what else?

[jtakeda]

So to get back to marciero's original post, what are some of the micro things we can do as cyclists specifically?

i think cycling, comparatively speaking is a pretty low environmental impact sport to begin with, but there is always improvements to be made.

-old tires? admittedly i just throw them out - is there something better i can be doing with these?

-less impulse purchasing/more disciplined purchasing habits - seems there is at least one, sometimes two Amazon deliveries to my house every day. in the era of free shipping, it's easy to just order stuff as the thought arises, but it definitely makes sense to consolidate to get less individual trips.

-i want to get better at home made ride snacks. i love the waffle things, and my wife had a recipe for a while to make them at home, i feel like that's better than pre-packed stuff.

what else?

Grease and solvents used to maintain our bikes should be plant based or bio degradable.

Compost your food scraps (you shouldn’t have much to begin with) not trash.

Sort your recycling. Try and buy biodegradable consumables (forks, plates etc if you’re hosting a bbq)

Drive less

Shop local

Grow your own food or support local farmers (less shipping of produce less food waste)

Convert your house to renewable energy and use less in general.

Support local grocers

There’s a lot you can do. Will it make a difference? Who knows, but I’m going to try

[93svt96]

Easiest way will probably be the Zeta Beam that brought Adam Strange from an archaelogical dig site in South America to the planet Rann. There, he's a champion of the people and defender against all threats with his jetpack and laser gun. He now flip flops back and forth with no control over when it happens. Again, like a terrible version of Quantum Leap, only pre-dating Quantum Leap by about 4 decades.

https://cdn2.penguin.com.au/covers/original/9781401272951.jpg

*** does comic book super heroes have to do with it? Bizarre. Its a matter of time , if we are still around. Maybe 50 years maybe 100 maybe more but i think it can be done.

[spoonrobot]

Home made cycling food is generally less efficient and produces more waste than buying prepacked due to the energy and packaging required. It's more efficient to buy prepared items as economies of scale make a huge difference in the electricity/gas/water required.

Same way it's almost always more efficient for a restaurant to acquire food and prepare for 100 people than it is for those 100 people to do the same for themselves (divide them however you want for family size).

Cooking at home is a cost-saving practice, not an environment saving one.

Biggest impact changes a cyclist could make:
Don't fly
No carbon fiber
No chainlubes that use evaporating carriers
No Co2

[FlashUNC]

*** does comic book super heroes have to do with it? Bizarre. Its a matter of time , if we are still around. Maybe 50 years maybe 100 maybe more but i think it can be done.

Just offering a way to make it happen. Though I concede the helmet may not be to everyone's taste.

Of course, if we get to Mars, the Martians might not like us landing there.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nu_YcdJlTgg/WiMaUk1opBI/AAAAAAABGLk/RbenkzFG4UsDMpwwQsUauAudu3a393i-gCLcBGAs/s1600/Wood-MIH-HE-LAUGHED-OUT.jpg

[93svt96]

Just offering a way to make it happen. Though I concede the helmet may not be to everyone's taste.

Of course, if we get to Mars, the Martians might not like us landing there.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nu_YcdJlTgg/WiMaUk1opBI/AAAAAAABGLk/RbenkzFG4UsDMpwwQsUauAudu3a393i-gCLcBGAs/s1600/Wood-MIH-HE-LAUGHED-OUT.jpg

Your a fool to think that over time we can not achieve something like this. Stick to your fantasy comic books. LOL

[FlashUNC]

Your a fool to think that over time we can not achieve something like this. Stick to your fantasy comic books. LOL

I never said we couldn't. But it isn't solely down to technical ability.

Just like the abilities of the X-Men who couldn't save Jean Grey as she piloted a damaged shuttle through fatal radiation, eventually merging with the Phoenix Force to create a new, cosmically powered telepathic entity.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S4VZngGGb90/Uv8T7HaDttI/AAAAAAAAAWw/XZvCtfaGSPU/s1600/Jeangreyx-men+%23100+jean+grey+dies.jpg

[93svt96]

I never said we couldn't. But it isn't solely down to technical ability.

Just like the abilities of the X-Men who couldn't save Jean Grey as she piloted a damaged shuttle through fatal radiation, eventually merging with the Phoenix Force to create a new, cosmically powered telepathic entity.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S4VZngGGb90/Uv8T7HaDttI/AAAAAAAAAWw/XZvCtfaGSPU/s1600/Jeangreyx-men+%23100+jean+grey+dies.jpg

I dont get it , this forum is weird.

[Mzilliox]

we absolutely will never colonize another planet. this place is weird? try the instant pot forum.

[xnetter]

Yes we are screwed. I envision some kind of "12 Monkeys" like future where we have retreated to a bleak existence underground. Or we gradually embrace technology to the point that we transition to a virtual consciousness species in a virtual state that doesn't need to eat or breathe air. Either way, I don't want to be around for it.

I don't worry too much about the enviro impact of my cycling habits and equipment. Most of it is pretty harmless aside from the inputs and industrial processes that went into making the frames and parts in the first place. I don't use any Co2 inflators or single-use gels as that is all bonkers and completely wasteful. As usual, most of those things are rooted in ego-driven competitiveness used as an excuse to consume.

One of the main changes for the positive in cycling has been moving from a huge city to a small one. I used to put my bike on the car and drive 45+ mins each way to get to the type of cycling I liked to do - on quiet rural roads. Despite living on an island, I now access nearly all the riding I do right out my door. I do sometimes incorporate the car in trips - into the States and whatnot - but that's rare.

A lot of cyclists travel a lot in the pursuit of a great ride or tour. I see lots about S&S coupled/travel on bikes and how they open up travel opportunities. A small package makes air travel-based cycle tourism cheaper and ostensibly easier to do more frequently. I think that is something to think about for the globetrotting cyclotourists out there. How many flights are you doing per year that are cycling-motivated? Perhaps one of the most environmentally-friendly choices we can make as cyclists could be to focus on your immediate surroundings, live a locally-scaled life and be content with that.

KJ

[93svt96]

we absolutely will never colonize another planet. this place is weird? try the instant pot forum.

Now it makes sense , definitely weird.

[Marc40a]

this place is weird? try the instant pot forum.

lol

[jtakeda]

we absolutely will never colonize another planet. this place is weird? try the instant pot forum.

“How many minutes at high pressure to cook a completely frozen 4 lb hunk of hotdogs?”

[Seramount]

-old tires? admittedly i just throw them out - is there something better i can be doing with these?

I wait until I have several and then take them to a locally-owned auto tire shop. they always accept them with no issue.

not sure what the eventual fate of used tires is...have heard some of it is used for road base or as fuel for cement kilns.

either beats just going to a landfill.

[AngryScientist]

I wait until I have several and then take them to a locally-owned auto tire shop. they always accept them with no issue.

not sure what the eventual fate of used tires is...have heard some of it is used for road base or as fuel for cement kilns.

either beats just going to a landfill.

you know, my neighbor just got his flower beds filled with this manmade rubber mulch stuff. it's pretty nice and should last forever i would think - i wonder if they make that stuff out of tires? maybe the steel belts prevent that though, at least in car tires?

edit: just looked - yes, car tires can be recycled into rubber mulch. that's a decent use if so.

[gdw]

AQUOTE=Seramount;2566815]I wait until I have several and then take them to a locally-owned auto tire shop. they always accept them with no issue.

not sure what the eventual fate of used tires is...have heard some of it is used for road base or as fuel for cement kilns.

either beats just going to a landfill.[/QUOTE]

Some tires are ground up into crumb rubber that is used to soften artificial turf. Unfortunately the chemicals found in crumb rubber are believed to be responsible for the increased cancer rates among young female soccer goalies.

[mj_michigan]

Biggest impact changes a cyclist could make:
Don't fly
No carbon fiber
No chainlubes that use evaporating carriers
No Co2

Sorry, I cannot ride without exhaling CO2. :)

P.S. I knew what you meant.

[makoti]

we absolutely will never colonize another planet. this place is weird? try the instant pot forum.

Just got one. Which forum?

[pbarry]

Pretty cool thinking outside the box. Global shipping accounts for 3% of CO2 emissions and is projected to contribute 15% by 2050. Hydrogen powered ship built with off-the-shelf parts:
https://www.npr.org/2019/07/16/716693006/the-dawn-of-low-carbon-shipping

[Dino Suegiù]

I just read an article about cemetery crowding and lack of space for burials in the UK, within the next ~5 years. So, some expert has put forward a proposal: bury the dead alongside British motorways, as "compost". :eek:

Bury bodies along UK's motorways to ease burial crisis, expert suggests (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/jul/05/bury-bodies-along-uks-motorway-to-ease-burial-crisis-expert-suggests)

[HenryA]

There is a movement in the U.S. for “natural” burial. No embalming and at most a lightweight wood box. Hard to argue with the thought behind it, but some of the folks who encourage it are mad at the funeral home industry and are kinda hard to talk with because of the anger at the burial industrial complex.

[fa63]

Here are some solutions to help achieve "Drawdown", the point in the future when levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere stop climbing and then start to steadily decline:

https://www.drawdown.org/solutions-summary-by-rank

Many of these can be adopted right away, like LED lights throughout your house, reduced food waste, plant rich diet, recycling, composting, etc.

[FlashUNC]

There is a movement in the U.S. for “natural” burial. No embalming and at most a lightweight wood box. Hard to argue with the thought behind it, but some of the folks who encourage it are mad at the funeral home industry and are kinda hard to talk with because of the anger at the burial industrial complex.

Or: Tower of Silence!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Silence

[jtakeda]

Just got one. Which forum?

Facebook group is the best comedy. I dont have Fabo but my girlfriend does and shows me the highlights.

As far as new IP owners, congrats, Can I make a suggestion? Get a bunch of the silicone top rings (different colors ideally) for different applications.

We have brown for sweet things
clear for stocks
orange for savory

You get the idea. The rings will soak up the odors and make things taste like other things

[makoti]

Facebook group is the best comedy. I dont have Fabo but my girlfriend does and shows me the highlights.

As far as new IP owners, congrats, Can I make a suggestion? Get a bunch of the silicone top rings (different colors ideally) for different applications.

We have brown for sweet things
clear for stocks
orange for savory

You get the idea. The rings will soak up the odors and make things taste like other things

Good tip. Thanks!

[rain dogs]

So to get back to marciero's original post, what are some of the micro things we can do as cyclists specifically?


The best thing anyone can do as a cyclist to combat climate change is ride their bike, ride their bike, ride their bike.

Anytime we're about to get into a car, truck, bus, train, plane, ask ourselves: Why am I not going by bike? And go by bike or walk.

The second best thing anyone can do as a cyclist is sell all their cars.

Fretting over lubes is trivial... riding your bike may even be trivial but it is thousands of magnitudes more effective than fretting the small things of cycling like materials, and liquids and such.

Ride your bike. Eat healthy. Collect less crap. Live small. Be happy. The planet and your body will thank you.

[fiamme red]

I've always felt guilty on long rides about buying bottled water at a gas station and then tossing the bottle in the trash. The depressing truth is putting plastics in a recycling bin doesn't help save the planet, it just makes us feel better.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/17/plastic-recycling-myth-what-really-happens-your-rubbish

...If you look at plastics, the picture is even bleaker. Of the 8.3bn tonnes of virgin plastic produced worldwide, only 9% has been recycled, according to a 2017 Science Advances paper entitled Production, Use And Fate Of All Plastics Ever Made. “I think the best global estimate is maybe we’re at 20% [per year] globally right now,” says Roland Geyer, its lead author, a professor of industrial ecology at the University of California, Santa Barbara. Academics and NGOs doubt those numbers, due to the uncertain fate of our waste exports. In June, one of the UK’s largest waste companies, Biffa, was found guilty of attempting to ship used nappies, sanitary towels and clothing abroad in consignments marked as waste paper. “I think there’s a lot of creative accounting going on to push the numbers up,” Geyer says.

“It’s really a complete myth when people say that we’re recycling our plastics,” says Jim Puckett, the executive director of the Seattle-based Basel Action Network, which campaigns against the illegal waste trade. “It all sounded good. ‘It’s going to be recycled in China!’ I hate to break it to everyone, but these places are routinely dumping massive amounts of [that] plastic and burning it on open fires.”

[AngryScientist]

I've always felt guilty on long rides about buying bottled water at a gas station and then tossing the bottle in the trash. The depressing truth is putting plastics in a recycling bin doesn't help save the planet, it just makes us feel better.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/17/plastic-recycling-myth-what-really-happens-your-rubbish

yea, and what's worse is that, if you've been following local news, several towns in north jersey, including sections of Newark have been testing positive for lead content in water, and the cities temporary solution is to hand out free bottled water. not gallons of water but 16 oz bottle of water. this is a unsustainable tragedy and a complete and utter waste of resources.

unfortunately with stories like this in the news, more and more people are fearful of their tap water, and are buying into bottled water more and more, which is not only a plastic waste issue, but a transportation issue, what a waste to transport thousands of gallons of individually packaged water when a pipe comes into every person's home.

ugh, not good.

[pobrien]

The Truth About Global Warming

Published on Oct 21, 2018

Dr. Patrick Michaels, director of the Center for the Study of Science at the Cato Institute, provides insight into the debate over climate change and the political games played to create policy.

You can copy the link below into your Google browser to watch a very interesting interview of Dr. Patrick Michaels on the topic of climate change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA5sGtj7QKQ

I expect that any serious person interested in the truth may find the interview very much worth your time watching.

Patrick

[makoti]

The Truth About Global Warming

Published on Oct 21, 2018

Dr. Patrick Michaels, director of the Center for the Study of Science at the Cato Institute, provides insight into the debate over climate change and the political games played to create policy.

You can copy the link below into your Google browser to watch a very interesting interview of Dr. Patrick Michaels on the topic of climate change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA5sGtj7QKQ

I expect that any serious person interested in the truth may find the interview very much worth your time watching.

Patrick

Seriously? The Cato Institute on Fox News? Any serious person will look somewhere else for actual science.

[ftf]

The Truth About Global Warming

Published on Oct 21, 2018

Dr. Patrick Michaels, director of the Center for the Study of Science at the Cato Institute, provides insight into the debate over climate change and the political games played to create policy.

You can copy the link below into your Google browser to watch a very interesting interview of Dr. Patrick Michaels on the topic of climate change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA5sGtj7QKQ

I expect that any serious person interested in the truth may find the interview very much worth your time watching.

Patrick

Just so everyone is fully aware, The Cato Institute, is a well known libertarian thinktank.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute

On environmental policy

Cato scholars have written about the issues of the environment, including global warming, environmental regulation, and energy policy.

PolitiFact.com and Scientific American have criticized Cato's work on global warming.[96][97] A December 2003 Cato panel included Patrick Michaels, Robert Balling and John Christy.[citation needed] Michaels, Balling and Christy agreed that global warming is related at least some degree to human activity but that some scientists and the media have overstated the danger.[citation needed] The Cato Institute has also criticized political attempts to stop global warming as expensive and ineffective:

No known mechanism can stop global warming in the near term. International agreements, such as the Kyoto Protocol to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, would have no detectable effect on average temperature within any reasonable policy time frame (i.e., 50 years or so), even with full compliance.[98]

Cato scholars have been critical of the Bush administration's views on energy policy. In 2003, Cato scholars Jerry Taylor and Peter Van Doren said the Republican Energy Bill was "hundreds of pages of corporate welfare, symbolic gestures, empty promises, and pork-barrel projects".[99] They also spoke out against the former president's calls for larger ethanol subsidies.[100]

With regard to the "Takings Clause" of the United States Constitution and environmental protection, libertarians associated with Cato contend that the Constitution is not adequate to guarantee the protection of private property rights.[101]


Also the entire, "teaching the debate" is a method employed to muddy the waters in a lot of issues in which there really is little to no actual debate on.

[ftf]

The Truth About Global Warming

Published on Oct 21, 2018

Dr. Patrick Michaels, director of the Center for the Study of Science at the Cato Institute, provides insight into the debate over climate change and the political games played to create policy.

You can copy the link below into your Google browser to watch a very interesting interview of Dr. Patrick Michaels on the topic of climate change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA5sGtj7QKQ

I expect that any serious person interested in the truth may find the interview very much worth your time watching.

Patrick

More info on On Patrick Michaels himself.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Michaels

July 27, 2006 ABC News reported that a Colorado energy cooperative, the Intermountain Rural Electric Association, had given Michaels $100,000.[35] An Associated Press report said that the donations had been made after Michaels had "told Western business leaders ... that he was running out of money for his analyses of other scientists' global warming research" and noted that the cooperative had a vested interest in opposing mandatory carbon dioxide caps, a situation that raised conflict of interest concerns.[36]

Michaels said on CNN that 40 per cent of his funding came from the oil industry.[37] According to Fred Pearce, fossil fuel companies have helped fund Michaels' projects, including his World Climate Report, published every year since 1994, and his "advocacy science consulting firm", New Hope Environmental Services.[38]

A 2005 article published by the Seattle Times reported that Michaels had received more than $165,000 in fuel-industry funding, including money from the coal industry to publish his own climate journal.[9]

[verticaldoug]

The Truth About Global Warming

Published on Oct 21, 2018

Dr. Patrick Michaels, director of the Center for the Study of Science at the Cato Institute, provides insight into the debate over climate change and the political games played to create policy.

You can copy the link below into your Google browser to watch a very interesting interview of Dr. Patrick Michaels on the topic of climate change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA5sGtj7QKQ

I expect that any serious person interested in the truth may find the interview very much worth your time watching.

Patrick

I think he is making several misrepresentations.

First, he makes it sound like the climate models being wrong and tuned is some secret the climatologists don't want to disclosed. (he doesn't say it like this, but the tone of his talk is accusatory). Every climate model has discussion papers on historical inaccuracies and the corrections that are being made to better fit the data. This is a very open discusion.

Second, the quick chart he uses to show how the climate models predict a much higher temperature increase than observed, may be a tricky misrepresentations. The models usually are working with a high median and low value for greenhouse gas increases which drive the temperature increases. It looks like he is using the highest growth greenhouse estimates and comparing those climate predictions versus observed. Since greenhouse gas increases have been below those estimates, the temperatures will be below. In scientific literature, even earlier models by Hansen from the 80's are not this inaccurate, so I think this is the likely explanation.

Third, he admits the climate is warming and about 1/2 is from humans. In some of his writings, he claims this is not a worry because although there are downsides to climate warming, there are also potential upsides. So nothing to see here.

He may be right and the climatologist concerned about global warming may be playing with some of the data, but at the very least, he is playing the same game.

[ftf]

He may be right and the climatologist concerned about global warming may be playing with some of the data, but at the very least, he is playing the same game.

I'm pretty sure that the 97% of scientists that work in this field are crooked, or could it be the guy taking huge amounts of money from the people who are going to benefit from the position held by the 3% are crooked?


https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/


Every climate model has discussion papers on historical inaccuracies and the corrections that are being made to better fit the data. This is a very open discusion.


This is wrong, again 97% of doctors think you have stage 3 cancer, please listen to the 3%. As for the rest of the sentence, you either don't understand how science works, which is a constant refinement, or are attempting to intentionally mislead.

[pobrien]

Hi all,

It is good to see a somewhat open dialogue taking place wrt the video. I am no expert on climate modelling but found it interesting and perhaps a good point to bring to the thread.

One point that I have not heard raised was the importance of sunspot activity on our climate. I believe that we are going into a period of low activity which may be reflected in global cooling.

Patrick

[ftf]

Hi all,

It is good to see a somewhat open dialogue taking place wrt the video. I am no expert on climate modelling but found it interesting and perhaps a good point to bring to the thread.

One point that I have not heard raised was the importance of sunspot activity on our climate. I believe that we are going into a period of low activity which may be reflected in global cooling.

Patrick


I'm glad you have a theory, luckily we have looked in to it:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sun-spots-and-climate-change/

Many climate scientists agree that sunspots and solar wind could be playing a role in climate change, but the vast majority view it as very minimal and attribute Earth’s warming primarily to emissions from industrial activity—and they have thousands of peer-reviewed studies available to back up that claim.

Peter Foukal of the Massachusetts-based firm Heliophysics, Inc., who has tracked sunspot intensities from different spots around the globe dating back four centuries, also concludes that such solar disturbances have little or no impact on global warming. Nevertheless, he adds, most up-to-date climate models—including those used by the United Nations’ prestigious Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)—incorporate the effects of the sun’s variable degree of brightness in their overall calculations.

[Mikej]

Don't blame dogs. They are doing just fine.

Where’s all of that dog $h!t going. Oh yeah, landfills in plastic bags. Why is this never an issue? Dogs are not environmentally friendly, as my dog watches...

[Kirk007]

The best thing anyone can do as a cyclist to combat climate change is ride their bike, ride their bike, ride their bike.



Actually the best thing a cyclist, and every other person, can do is to vote for political representatives who understand and are willing to act to address the most significant existential threat that homo sapiens have ever encountered. The little decisions we make as individuals are not trivial but they are not going to get our children and grandchildren and those already in harms way out of this.

[pobrien]

I should not have said that I have a theory. I have read of different interpretations of the data and one theory made sense to me as a non-expert in the field.

I understand that we have several experts on the paceline so please do forgive me for my misstatement.

Patrick

[ftf]

I should not have said that I have a theory. I have read of different interpretations of the data and one theory made sense to me as a non-expert in the field.



As I pointed out in my previous post, that theory is not correct, Global Climate change is real and it is man made, Period, 97% of experts agree on this accepted scientific fact. The 3% are typically like Patrick Michaels, paid off shills.

Sad that people would take money for lying about something that endangers the entire human race, and all other life on earth, actually sad is not stating it enough, it's sickening.

[Dino Suegiù]

Indeed.
While it is not important whether the ratios are exactly 97% pro versus 3% con, or even how the 97% and the 3% make their money, what is truly disheartening is the fact that the 3% certainly control far more than 3% of the discussion/debate, and therefore real action regarding any possible solutions.

But, we knew that too...sadly indeed.

[marciero]

Indeed.
While it is not important whether the ratios are exactly 97% pro versus 3% con, or even how the 97% and the 3% make their money, what is truly disheartening is the fact that the 3% certainly control far more than 3% of the discussion/debate, and therefore real action regarding any possible solutions.

But, we knew that too...sadly indeed.


If you toss out the many climate deniers a) who may be or once were scientists but whose training and work have little or nothing to do with climate change, b) have not done meaningful research in years, or c) have no real credentials or training, I would bet that it is much closer to 99.7% vs 0.3%, and probably less than that. There are virtually no climate deniers among scientists who are currently active in the field. But yes, the deniers are the loudest and are given disproportionate representation. The worst are the ones with some credentials who cherry-pick data to support claims.

[Mzilliox]

i dont get it. not even debatable.

lets talk about why:
lets say we collectively choose not to act, there are 2 outcomes since that is currently what is happening. there is a chance the climate is not warming because of us and we will adapt and something will happen. probably life as we know it will be over, in terms of population density, in terms of technology, etc etc.

or....**** really hits the fan, we were wrong, we were the ones who caused it all, now we are dying. famine, drought, fights over water, heck, maybe it just ends for humans.

Do any of you like these 2 choices? both lead to significant change which most would consider negative.

Or we act on the knowledge we have. we make lifestyle changes and stop having petty fights over religion, because now there is a real problem to solve, not a metaphysical one. we innovate, we learn to work the land again, we stop worshipping money, we clean things up and we save our species because after all, we were the ones this whole time and we just needed to change our polluting over consuming ways.

or we were wrong, but hey, we cleaned up the planet, things are more peaceful, we have new jobs and innovations, a new way of thinking about a successful society, and we are still alive, making art, having kids, and telling stories about that time we thought we may have ended humanity.

I like these 2 scenarios way more, dont you? so lets act accordingly

or you can post this one article about how this one guy (because its always a dude) says we are only half responsible so really we should just carry on being poor stewards of the only planet we will ever get to live on. just keep spending money and tossing garbage, keep voting for jerks who dont have your interest but corporate interest in mind when passing or removing regulations designed to save humanity. nothing to see here.

how is there even a choice, why are we so bad at being good?

[pobrien]

One point more and I will stop. Everyone has opinions and we are fallible as human beings.

I know that we have many intelligent and well educated people on the forum and that is great. We all have opinions and prejudices, as we are human.

I suspect that no person here knows the truth about climate change or the significance of any that may be occurring.

We all have opinions. Those who tout their perspective the loudest or dismiss the comments of others without definitive answers really takes away from any value in the discussion.

I think we need a moderator! just kidding.

[Big Dan]

Comes down to money.

[fa63]

Comes down to money.

Pretty much, and in more ways than one.

I work on a climate change related project, and from talking to people, one thing that needs to be kept in mind is that people who can barely get by right now (and there are many, many of them) do not necessarily have the bandwidth to internalize the effects of climate change, even though they will be the ones most affected by it. They are more worried about paying rent and putting food on the table today (and rightfully so).

They also have as much voting power as everyone else does; somehow we need to find a way to get them to vote for their long-term interest instead of short-term. But then again study after study shows lower income people having much higher discount rates (meaning they are more likely to think short-term than long-term, especially in terms of financial decisions). It really is a complex problem.

[Tickdoc]

It's a Pascal's wager right up there with belief in God, if you ask me.

You can't prove it til it's too late, so you have to act responsibly.

Nearly everyone who agrees it is man-made also believes it is too late.

[ftf]

It's a Pascal's wager right up there with belief in God, if you ask me.

You can't prove it til it's too late, so you have to act responsibly.

Nearly everyone who agrees it is man-made also believes it is too late.

It's different than pascals wager in that, with pascals wager you are only betting with your own life, not the life of, well all life on earth.

[ftf]

One point more and I will stop. Everyone has opinions and we are fallible as human beings.

I know that we have many intelligent and well educated people on the forum and that is great. We all have opinions and prejudices, as we are human.

I suspect that no person here knows the truth about climate change or the significance of any that may be occurring.

We all have opinions. Those who tout their perspective the loudest or dismiss the comments of others without definitive answers really takes away from any value in the discussion.

I think we need a moderator! just kidding.

Like discussing if the earth is flat, sometimes there just isn't a discussion, the earth isn't flat, we went to the moon, vaccines work, etc. Though thinking the earth is flat is less dangerous I suppose than touting climate deinal.

[C50]

This is probably a little bit off the focus of the thread but I thought I would post it since it is related and there is a lot of diverse talents and knowledge from the members of the forum. I would be interested in asking a few questions of anybody involved in the renewable energy/wind/solar field especially if they have experience in California. There is a potential project that I would like to get some opinions about from sources other than those opposed to it because they don't want anything near them or from other people who support it because they stand to gain financially from it. Feel free to send a private message and I can explain further but promise to not take up a lot of your time.

[marciero]

One point more and I will stop. Everyone has opinions and we are fallible as human beings.

I know that we have many intelligent and well educated people on the forum and that is great. We all have opinions and prejudices, as we are human.

...

We all have opinions...



No. Just no. This has nothing to do with opinion, prejudice, point of view, etc. and casting it as such only obfuscates.

[benb]

This thread got weird and I mostly ignored that part...

Couple of thoughts that were more on topic:

1) I don't feel like zip ties can be anywhere near as bad as straws. A Zip tie might be "single use" for me but that single use lasts for years and years, not 10 minutes like a plastic straw! I've bought one container of zip ties in the entire time I've been cycling, I have 90% of the container left after about 20 years of using it for bike stuff & motorcycle stuff & whatever else needs them in repair.

2) The thing about riding your bike to work being just as bad as a Prius or you need to ride your bike 15k miles to balance out production of a steel bike vs 30k for Ti or 50k for Carbon sounds like a ridiculous climate denier/conservative hoax. How many bikes can you build for the environmental impact of the production of one Prius! Can't give you the specifics but it is not 1, it's a much bigger number. Toyota can claim the factory is carbon neutral but they can't even come close to claiming that on the sourcing for all the raw materials that get carted all over the world by filthy cargo ships. I don't even think the equation can possibly work if you ignore the impact of making a car either. There is a major environmental impact to dig up the fuel to fill the prius and transport it to the filling station too, you'd have to ignore that as well. Keep cycle commuting and don't feel guilty about it.

edit: I looked at this and even the best electric car on the market is super inefficient compared to riding a bike.. you're > 10x more efficient riding your bike to work than a prius. Also bikes are easier to dispose of than cars when their lifetime is over.

4) Nitrile gloves.. just use them when you really need to use them for dangerous chemicals or glue or something. Use washable work gloves for the other stuff.

[jlwdm]

The best thing anyone can do as a cyclist to combat climate change is ride their bike, ride their bike, ride their bike.

...

But taking this farther should a bike be ridden only when it is a necessary mode of transportation (like commuting) but not for exercise. You can walk or run for exercise and use fewer resources.

And of course you should only have one bike. And how many jerseys and so forth?

Jeff