Powertap hub powermeters passé?

[BobbyJones]

After some fits and starts with cycling over the past few years I’m looking ahead to an autumn of improvement. Thinking about joining the power club for more targeted sessions.

Since i also need a spare set of 11 speed wheels, thinking about a PowerTap, but they don’t seem to get that much love anymore. Is it just a case of the new and improved taking over?

Any comments?

[DRietz]

They're just inconvenient for most folks using a power meter to train for racing - if you have your training wheels built up with a PowerTap, you're gonna need to lace up your race wheels with one, too. Real data geeks will also poopoo the lack of dual sided analysis.

If this particular situation doesn't apply to you, I still think they're a great training tool.

[dem]

If you need wheels, and you ride them every where.. Powertap is a great deal.

Although not "dual sided analysis" it does include both legs, which is a step up on the basic Stages or one sided pedal for less monies.

I have other powermeters, but my primary bike has the Powertap.

[BagelMaster]

They're just inconvenient for most folks using a power meter to train for racing - if you have your training wheels built up with a PowerTap, you're gonna need to lace up your race wheels with one, too. Real data geeks will also poopoo the lack of dual sided analysis.

If this particular situation doesn't apply to you, I still think they're a great training tool.

In addition to your first point, if you start using a different method of reading power you’ll get some slightly different readings since a bikes drivetrain isn’t perfectly efficient. So you’d likely want to do what DRietz is saying if you use more than one wheelset. Wheels can also be more prone to needing repair than a crank arm, spider, etc. leaving you without power. Also, you would not be able to use the hub on a dumb trainer. I usually suggest a crank arm power meter to start, because it’s often a budget friendly option and you can also get into indoor training through TrainerRoad, Zwift, etc..

You’ll still get both legs power, as you’re getting the aggregate power from both legs through the drivetrain. What you’ll be missing is Left/Right Balance, which a lot of folks will say is inconsequential and can be magnified at lower power, what leg you leave down while coasting, or what leg you unclip first. Most people have a slight imbalance, and it’s more maddening to try to fix it than not. It can be indicative of a leg length discrepancy, injury, or something else, but also that can be addressed with PT and not as a cycling technique issue.

[jay023]

I use a powertap hub, and it works great for me. As a casual/fitness rider it provides all the data I need. Easy to switch between bikes and does cadence as well.

[Ronsonic]

I took advantage of their less cool status to get one inexpensively. Used prices are very reasonable these days. Does everything I need and I don't need more than one wheelset these days so not a problem for me.

IINM the cool kids are doing pedals and some very spendy cranksets.

[wallymann]

PTs are great. easy swapping between bikes. reliable and accurate. with PTs you're committing to a particular rear hub which may not accommodate some "bespoke" rim/lacing configurations.

i like to record power on *all* of my bikes -- i have at least a dozen bikes ranging from go-fast, to gravel, to mtb, to retro steel. try accommodating power-measurement across that spread with crank-based systems. impossible. the only realistic way to do that is with PT: i have 5 PT wheels, including a couple laced with retro rims from the '80s!

fwiw...i just added a pair of pioneer dual-leg ultegras for my trainer-bike for pedalstroke analysis, but i still combine with my PT hub and use that as the actual "gold" training data.

[chiasticon]

nothing wrong with Powertap, if it fits your use case. I think they used to be more popular when they were the cheapest entry into the power game. but prices on crank options have come down a lot, and there's pedal options too. these are more flexible and seem to fit more people's needs, but there's certainly cases where PT would work better. I'd actually love one for my CX practice wheels, because I don't need/want one when racing anyway.

[unterhausen]

Other than people that have multiple wheels per bike, I think PT's have gone out of favor mostly because of the weight. I think they are a great way to get information. I want one on all of my bikes mostly to keep track of training stress. For training purposes, I don't feel like using one all the time is essential once you become familiar with how your legs feel at a particular power.

[weiwentg]

i like to record power on *all* of my bikes -- i have at least a dozen bikes ranging from go-fast, to gravel, to mtb, to retro steel. try accommodating power-measurement across that spread with crank-based systems. impossible. the only realistic way to do that is with PT: i have 5 PT wheels, including a couple laced with retro rims from the '80s!


Is it actually impossible, aside from the retro bike? Stages makes meters for Shimano road and mountain cranks. Quarq does road, gravel/CX, and mountain crankarms from SRAM or their own brand arms. Obviously, you'd have to put a modern crankset on the retro steel bike, which would look odd, so I concede that one is out. It may also not be realistic if you have a mix of Shimano and SRAM cranks and you want to stick to one company's power meter. But you could realistically stick to crank-based solutions unless I missed something.

[chiasticon]

But you could realistically stick to crank-based solutions unless I missed something.I think the point was that it's too expensive to be feasible/possible.

[wallymann]

Is it actually impossible, aside from the retro bike? Stages makes meters for Shimano road and mountain cranks. Quarq does road, gravel/CX, and mountain crankarms from SRAM or their own brand arms. Obviously, you'd have to put a modern crankset on the retro steel bike, which would look odd, so I concede that one is out. It may also not be realistic if you have a mix of Shimano and SRAM cranks and you want to stick to one company's power meter. But you could realistically stick to crank-based solutions unless I missed something.

yep...thats the point/limitation with crank-based power when going retro. if you want to roll campy nuovo-record or sugino super-mighty or mavic 630 cranks...PT is the only way. (granted, that's a very-very unique situation!)

for me, cranks are a very big part of a bike's total aesthetic...much moreso than a rear hub, so i like being able to choose the cranksets i want.

ymmv

[weiwentg]

I think the point was that it's too expensive to be feasible/possible.

So, PowerTap hubs look like they retail for about $500 each. They do have to be built into rims, but you'd have built the rear wheel anyway. You will also get total power based off both legs. I was remembering PT's old pricing.

I just reviewed pricing for crankarms, too. A lot of left-only crank PMs are around this price or cheaper if you send in an existing crankarm. They're more expensive than $500 for ready-made arms. If you ride Campy carbon arms, you're probably going to have to buy a pre-installed crankset, so this would be a lot more expensive.

I concede the point that over 5 bikes' worth of meters, the total pricing may be less for PowerTap. I'm still not sure it's infeasible to do 5 bikes' worth of left arm-based PMs.

yep...thats the point/limitation with crank-based power when going retro. if you want to roll campy nuovo-record or sugino super-mighty or mavic 630 cranks...PT is the only way. (granted, that's a very-very unique situation!)

And more power to you.

Edit: That wasn't intended as a pun when I typed it. I just realized it is. Sorry to be corny.

[Lanternrouge]

So, PowerTap hubs look like they retail for about $500 each. They do have to be built into rims, but you'd have built the rear wheel anyway. You will also get total power based off both legs. I was remembering PT's old pricing.

I just reviewed pricing for crankarms, too. A lot of left-only crank PMs are around this price or cheaper if you send in an existing crankarm. They're more expensive than $500 for ready-made arms. If you ride Campy carbon arms, you're probably going to have to buy a pre-installed crankset, so this would be a lot more expensive.

I concede the point that over 5 bikes' worth of meters, the total pricing may be less for PowerTap. I'm still not sure it's infeasible to do 5 bikes' worth of left arm-based PMs.



And more power to you.

Edit: That wasn't intended as a pun when I typed it. I just realized it is. Sorry to be corny.

You should be able to get a new Powertap wheel for $500 if you can find any still in stock. Stages now does installation on any compatible left crankarm for $399, which seems like a better investment unless you are swapping between bikes. I have multiple Powertaps and they are fine, but will likely not be getting any more since it doesn't make sense to have wheels rebuilt around them.

[Mark McM]

i like to record power on *all* of my bikes -- i have at least a dozen bikes ranging from go-fast, to gravel, to mtb, to retro steel. try accommodating power-measurement across that spread with crank-based systems. impossible. the only realistic way to do that is with PT: i have 5 PT wheels, including a couple laced with retro rims from the '80s!

This depends on how 'retro' you're bike is. I'm pretty sure that PowerTap hubs are only available in 130/135/142mm axles, with 8/9/10/11spd freehubs. If your retro bike has a 7spd 126mm axle, the PowerTap hub is out.

Another option is pedal based power meters, which can be easily be swapped between bikes. That is, unless you're going full 'retro' with toe-clips and straps (and most people don't go that far).

(When I started riding in about 1980, 6 and 7 speed freewheels were the norm, and the practical clipless pedal hadn't come out yet, so if you're using 8/9/10/11/12spd cassettes or clipless pedals, you're not 'retro' in my book.)

[Mark McM]

And more power to you.

Edit: That wasn't intended as a pun when I typed it. I just realized it is. Sorry to be corny.

Watt's that you say? I don't understand what you're torqueing about.

[OldCrank]

Since PowerTap just got sold off, and looks like might be headed for extinction (my observation), prices may fall further.
My worry now, as an owner, is continued support.
My hub is working great, now. The future has become even more uncertain.

As D.C.R. wrote, back in April:
<<< it’s clear that for the immediate 4-6 week future there’s no real impact to existing PowerTap customers. >>>
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/04/sram-acquires-powertap-what-it-means-for-both-brands-and-consumers.html

Meanwhile, power data is working fine with SufferFest, Golden Cheetah and my amateurish attempts at training and self-coaching.

[Lanternrouge]

Since PowerTap just got sold off, and looks like might be headed for extinction (my observation), prices may fall further.
My worry now, as an owner, is continued support.
My hub is working great, now. The future has become even more uncertain.
.

For what it's worth, I've read that the main reason for the purchase was for selling the pedals, though the plan was to still support the older devices. I expect this will make selling what I have make even less sense in the future.

[prototoast]

I used a PowerTap for a few years, and was generally happy with it, but for me, the biggest issue with the powertap were the bearings. Bearings wear, and (at least at the time) Saris did not support local shops replacing the bearings. When the bearings wore out, you were supposed to send the wheel/hub back to Saris for a $300-ish dollar servicing.

When I switched from that to Quarq, what I really liked was that it detached the power meter from any pieces that wear out. The power meter is not integral to the bottom bracket bearings and the chainrings are easily swappable at home.

[upstate burner]

you would not be able to use the hub on a dumb trainer.

I don't understand why you would say this. My trainer is as dumb as they get but provides useful resistance, which the powertap hub acknowledges in the form of power data. The hub broadcasts to both my garmin device and an android tablet simultaneously while on my trainer.

[wallymann]

If your retro bike has a 7spd 126mm axle, the PowerTap hub is out.

yep, there are constraints! i had my 126mm rear-ends spread to 130mm when needed. again, fairly unique use-case!

Another option is pedal based power meters, which can be easily be swapped between bikes. .

if a speedplay based system arrived, i'd probably make a sizeable investment in that and move away from PT.

(When I started riding in about 1980, 6 and 7 speed freewheels were the norm, and the practical clipless pedal hadn't come out yet, so if you're using 8/9/10/11/12spd cassettes or clipless pedals, you're not 'retro' in my book.)

on my retro-bikes i run friction shifting across 9 cogs in back with the aforementioned PT hub, old school cranks and derailleurs and shifters, speedplays under my feet with high-tech sidi ergos, sorta-stoppy calipers and pads, a blood-flow enhancing cut-out saddle under my 'taint, and classy-looking threaded headsets with cartridge (gasp!) bearings -- i believe the term of art is "neo-retro"...a little old, a little new!

http://majortaylorcycling.org/events/2012_mid-ohio-century/DSC02686.jpg

[BobbyJones]

Thanks for all the input.

Looks like a PT set up is the way to go for my needs. Gonna keep an eye on classified for a bit before I do a custom build.

[jwess1234]

I would do some research into the hub durability... I've gone through: 1 bearing overhaul, new hub, 2nd bearing overhaul.

Be careful not to over-tighten the rear hub. My friend killed the hub/bearings quickly that way and I believe this is a common issue.

This is from the g3 hub. Saris's support wasn't great. 3 issues in 4 years and I paid for 2 of them.

Re warranty. SRAM was very responsive to my last issue, which I don't know whether it is resolved or not yet. Need to get back on it.

With the cost of repairs, shipping a wheel back and forth, and time lost, I would spend the extra money for pedal based power, or something on the crank.

[berserk87]

Thanks for all the input.

Looks like a PT set up is the way to go for my needs. Gonna keep an eye on classified for a bit before I do a custom build.

I would keep one eye open regarding a used Powertap. I bought one used, locally via CL. I could not get it to pick up a signal. I opened it up and water had intruded into the guts and corroded all of the contacts.

Fortunately the guy was local, and cool enough to refund my cash without any issues. He said that he hadn't used it in quite awhile but that it worked the last time he rode it.

If you go the used route I would recommend that an agreement with the seller about a return be arranged before purchase (if there is a problem with the hub).

[deechee]

I used a PowerTap for a few years, and was generally happy with it, but for me, the biggest issue with the powertap were the bearings. Bearings wear, and (at least at the time) Saris did not support local shops replacing the bearings. When the bearings wore out, you were supposed to send the wheel/hub back to Saris for a $300-ish dollar servicing.


Ditto. The bearing service in Canada for the SL basically was a complete replacement of the innards. (They didn't offer to replace only the bearings.) . So on one hand I now have Bluetooth support, on the other, it was almost the same price as my shop's cost for a new G3. So long term, I'm not super keen on their support.

That said, I have two powertaps and a power2max. They've all been rock solid except for the G3 needing more frequent battery changes (CR2032 vs the older LR44s). I'm going to run them into the ground.

[FlashUNC]

yep...thats the point/limitation with crank-based power when going retro. if you want to roll campy nuovo-record or sugino super-mighty or mavic 630 cranks...PT is the only way. (granted, that's a very-very unique situation!)

for me, cranks are a very big part of a bike's total aesthetic...much moreso than a rear hub, so i like being able to choose the cranksets i want.

ymmv

Will pedal-based power meters not work with those cranks?

For my mind that seems the simplest solution of all if you want it across multiple bikes.

[wallymann]

Will pedal-based power meters not work with those cranks?

For my mind that seems the simplest solution of all if you want it across multiple bikes.

yep, they will -- but i've painted myself into a speedplay colored corner!

[Alaska Mike]

I have crank-based power meters on 8 of my 10 bikes (with the option of swapping as the need arises). 3 Quarqs and 5 SRMs. Most of them were bought used off of eBay. Maybe a battery replacement was required, but that's about it. I run 10 speed drivetrains on most of my bikes, but I usually go with 11 speed standard GXP/Hollowtech just to make them easily transferrable from bike to bike. The last couple SRMs I bought were less than $250, and I sent them in to be tested and have the batteries replaced for another $100. I could swap batteries myself, but they aren't readily available around here and shipping can be an issue. SRM service has been really good to me.

Right now I likely have too many power meters, considering how much each bike gets ridden, but I still browse eBay looking for the next deal. It's an addiction. Mostly I look for different crank arm lengths for the SRMs I already own, as I'm slowly going shorter.

As for the original question, I think hub-based power meters will be sustainable as long as SRAM feels they're worth supporting. You don't see a lot of start ups clamoring to make the next one. I don't expect any great R&D to be dumped into them, unless SRAM suddenly enters the direct-drive smart trainer market and there's some cross-over. What exists now will probably be the apex of the hub-based power meter.

I have a set of 'cross wheels hanging on my wall with a SL hub that I picked up with my Richey Break Away CX. I've never used them, and the batteries are dead. To be honest, they're worth more to a prospective buyer as wheels than they are as a power measuring device, and in the shape they're in, they aren't worth much as wheels.

My opinion? Get a crank-based system or pedals.

[FlashUNC]

yep, they will -- but i've painted myself into a speedplay colored corner!

Now you've got me wondering, is there the possibility of a cleat-based power measurement system that could work seamlessly with Speedplay pedals.

I'll leave that to the armchair engineers.

[m_sasso]

Will someone in the industry remind me again why no one makes a Shimano pedal based power meter?

I want meters in my pedals so I can move them around easily and I want to use Shimano based pedals that work with my Shimano cleated shoes! Why is this too much to ask, please?

[wallymann]

Now you've got me wondering, is there the possibility of a cleat-based power measurement system that could work seamlessly with Speedplay pedals.

I'll leave that to the armchair engineers.

brim brothers tried.

"Just bring your shoes with you, clip into a Speedplay pedal, and voila: watts."

https://www.velonews.com/2014/09/bikes-and-tech/brim-brothers-launches-999-cleat-based-power-meter_345153

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/09/brothers-announces-production.html

https://media.dcrainmaker.com/images/2014/09/IMG_7140_thumb.jpg

[54ny77]

I will probably have one available on classifieds in a little bit, since I am getting a regular hub & having the wheel rebuilt. The PT hub, which is one of the fancier models (although probably 7-8 years old), is on a wheel now and I've never used it. Technically, I have no idea how or if it works...although I'm sure it does, because the guy who had the bike previously & who is a friend, took fanatical care of the bike and trained with power. In fact I have a Garmin 800 sitting in a box that's now several years old. I've never opened that either. Bought it originally to use with the powertap hub so I could measure why I'm going so slow. :bike:

If you're local, I'll trade you for some beer or a bottle of wine. Shoot me a PM!

Thanks for all the input.

Looks like a PT set up is the way to go for my needs. Gonna keep an eye on classified for a bit before I do a custom build.

[slambers3]

Will someone in the industry remind me again why no one makes a Shimano pedal based power meter?

I want meters in my pedals so I can move them around easily and I want to use Shimano based pedals that work with my Shimano cleated shoes! Why is this too much to ask, please?

Garmin vector 1/2 are adaptable to a Shimano pedal body via their conversion kit. Idk if the 3s are.

[weiwentg]

Will someone in the industry remind me again why no one makes a Shimano pedal based power meter?

I want meters in my pedals so I can move them around easily and I want to use Shimano based pedals that work with my Shimano cleated shoes! Why is this too much to ask, please?

If you expand the statement to include Shimano MTB pedals, then iQ^2 is planning to release (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFSZv466xyE) Keo-compatible road pedals and SPD-compatible MTB pedals that measure power. They were intiially designing a system that you inserted your pedals (any brand) into, then screwed the whole assembly into your cranks. I believe it added 16mm to the Q-factor on either side. Regardless, that plan is now defunct. iQ^2 was a Kickstarter-funded firm, and frankly, their plans may or may not actually make it to market.

I've heard some people express skepticism (https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/05/iq2-power-meter-changes-direction-backers-now-getting-pedals.html) about the viability of MTB pedals that measure power, particularly because the pedals are going to take hits from rocks.