Latex tubes - more prone to flats?

[Gsinill]

...or maybe just Vittorias?

Never tried latex tubes in clinchers before.
Recently bought a really nice wheelset from a fellow Paceliner that came with Vittoria Corsas and Vittoria latex tubes.

Tubes looked good, no cracks, lots of talcum, smooth albeit one size smaller than the tires (19/23 vs. 25)

One failed before the first ride, valve stem separated from the black reinforcement patch.
Yesterday, 10 miles into my first ride, the other one flatted.
This time a tiny hole right at the edge to the double latex area close to the valve.

Coincidence, Vittoria issue, tube too small for tire, latex in general?

Would love to give latex tubes another try but not if they just generally tend to be more prone to flats than butyl.

[stien]

I haven't found them to be more prone to flats but clearly they need extra care when pumping up to avoid pressure at the valve.

Since stopping racing I've been replacing them as needed with butyl. I hate having to pump tires every day. Only one left in the fleet!

[AngryScientist]

not more prone to flats in my experience.

have been running vittoria latex tubes for a long while now in vittoria tires. no problems so far here.

[jamesdak]

My tubes of choice. I really don't have any issues with them and do nothing special with them. They just work great to me.

Since I rotate through about 25 bikes all the time it's habit for me to check air pressure before each ride no matter what.

[kingpin75s]

Not more prone to flats in my experience as well.

[Elefantino]

Running latex tubes in Open Corsas - arguably the most flat-prone (yet inarguably the most outworldy comfortable) clincher there is - didn't see any difference.

No more latex now, though. A luxury. A nice luxury, though!

[kppolich]

I had a similar problem with a set of Vittoria latex tubes. Notes of flats around the valve core area. I did a bit of research and found there may have been a bad batch or two that all had this issue. Other than than, no regular flats for me in 5,000 miles.

[11.4]

Most latex tube brands have batches that are flawed. It goes with the tight tolerances in the thinner walls and the materials involved.

Latex tubes may not generally be more fragile but they are more susceptible to a rim valve hole that's rough or slightly oversized so part of the tube can start to work its way through. Ditto for rims (or tires) with rough spots or that aren't the best fitting. And ditto for rim tapes. Your whole game has to be down well and then latex tubes tend to work well.

Installation is of course critical with them. Not seating the valve carefully in the valve hole, missing a small spot where the tube is pinched under the bead, and other faults can doom your ride.

Like with tubular tires, it's mostly about doing it right and getting all the particulars to a high level of precision. It doesn't take longer at that time, just takes doing it right. And sometimes that's a matter of experience. I blew a lot of latex tubes before I figured out the things that mattered and I went back to butyl a few times before working it out. Latex tubes were originally designed for tubulars, where most of the problems go away. Keep at it and you'll do fine.

[Black Dog]

Been using Michelin Latex tubes for 10 years and never had any issues and certainly less pinch flats compared to butyl. Sounds like you have tubes form a bad batch.

[false_Aest]

Just buy the Silca ones.
Josh says they have graphene in them

[fignon's barber]

IMO, you should never use a size 19/23 latex tube with a 25mm (or more) tire on a wide rim. Latex tubes are super thin to begin with. By stretching it beyond its range, you are asking for trouble.

[Gsinill]

IMO, you should never use a size 19/23 latex tube with a 25mm (or more) tire on a wide rim. Latex tubes are super thin to begin with. By stretching it beyond its range, you are asking for trouble.

Yep, that's what I was wondering too.
I recall that I looked into this for butyl tubes before and as far as I remember the outcome was that a few mm won't matter.
Guess latex tubes might be a different story.

Just ordered a new set since it looks like either a bad batch or wrong handling.

As always, thanks for everybody's input and advice... :)

[kramnnim]

I use the 19-23's in 25's all the time. Leaks at the valve/seam do seem to be where mine fail, but it takes a while.

[dddd]

"...Tubes looked good, no cracks, lots of talcum, smooth albeit one size smaller than the tires (19/23 vs. 25)

One failed before the first ride, valve stem separated from the black reinforcement patch.
Yesterday, 10 miles into my first ride, the other one flatted.
This time a tiny hole right at the edge to the double latex area close to the valve..."


There is much more concentrated tension in the tube near the valve stem, because there is an arc of the tube's minor circumference where stretch is severely limited by the valve reinforcement patch.

So not only does the latex get stretched to the limit here, the reinforced area also sees higher-than normal tension stress when a too-small tube is used. Perhaps this is further exaggerated by the OP's rims, if they are wider than the rim width that gives the 25mm tires their stated size(?).

I have seen latex tubes split open over a span of inches while inflated inside of an intact tire, so I would say that latex is more susceptible to rupture than is butyl when used in similar relative (to the tire size) widths.

But of course latex tubes are not the only ones to suffer from being fitted undersized to the tire width.

Another problem related to use of too small of a tube for the tire width is that the tube reaches considerable pressure and stretching (especially near the valve stem reinforcement) as the tube begins to tension the tire casing but before the tube has expanded fully into the rim cavity (especially at the reinforcement patch), which pins the tube against the inside of the tire. Further inflation then sees the tube having to expand more locally (along it's inner surface) into the rim trough, and with the reinforcement patch perhaps still well up into the tire, forcing the tube to stretch in two directions adjacent to the valve reinforcement. This is why we see dimpled areas of the tube wall at each lengthwise end of the reinforcement patch, and where ruptures often occur.

The moral of the story is that there are repercussions to using undersized tubes, in addition to the way that a small puncture releases air much faster when the undersized tube is in such a state of tension as to expand the hole larger than the puncturing object.
To wit, Michelin has produced generously-sized tubes with a dimpled surface which flattens out under inflation pressure to put the tube wall into mre of a state of compression, thus improving the air retention of a punctured tube.

It would be interesting to know to what degree that an over-tensed tube affects ride quality and rolling resistance.

Thinner-walled tubes can be made to a larger minor diameter at the same weight, but since they are more expensive to make (and since a thinner-walled tube is more easily pinched by so many riders who do not plump their tube with air upon installation), we continue to find smallish, thicker-walled tubes to be the better-stocked item.

There were good, wide, thinner-walled tubes coming out of Japan in great numbers ~35 years ago, some with (measured flat) widths of 29mm and at only 69 grams! Compare that to today's relatively good/wide Specialized tubes which measure 26mm flat at 106 grams. I've actually saved and used some of these old, used tubes for use in my CX racer's WCS 38mm (34mm actual on narrow rims) tires, since they are lighter than anything else while still reliable. Oddly enough, these tube's printed size was "25-28" in an era when 28mm tires typically measured only 24 or 25mm, proving that a decently-over-sized tube still fits in the tire without creasing.

So I would say that there is a suspicious lack of good, thin (and wider!) tubes offered these days, either because A) people like a low price on such a disposable item or B) because thinner, wider tubes might compete with more profitable technologies like tubeless tires, or C) because of problems with riders installing them in their flat state causing dangerous bead-pinching issues.

It is well known these days that sealants work better in tubeless tires than in inner tubes, and again this is because of the tire's relative inelasticity not allowing the hole to stretch much larger than the puncturing object (unlike with a highly-stretched tube). So using a larger tube width will allow any sealant to perform more reliably.

[Mark McM]

I have seen latex tubes split open over a span of inches while inflated inside of an intact tire, so I would say that latex is more susceptible to rupture than is butyl when used in similar relative (to the tire size) widths.

These long splits are often caused by improperly installation, if the tube gets caught under the tire bead. If the tube split is accompanied by a load "bang" than it is a certain sign that the tube was caught under the bead.

[dddd]

These long splits are often caused by improperly installation, if the tube gets caught under the tire bead. If the tube split is accompanied by a load "bang" than it is a certain sign that the tube was caught under the bead.

Yes, and latex is more susceptible to getting pinched if the tube is fitted still flat, just as with thin butyl tubes.
And yet I never saw this problem crop up with the thin and weakly-sized Turbo butyl tubes, which like latex were a thing for a while with cross-country racers. The latex splits were ginormous, suggesting that the stretched latex tube if so much as ruptured in one tiny area could literally split over a five-inch length before the tube even started to deflate! Imagine certain packaging bags (or latex gloves for that matter) where, once a tear is initiated, the bag can be torn apart with virtually no force at all. That's what latex can tear like, and obviously not helped by any additional tension of undersized fitment.

I don't think that it is a "stretch" (no pun intended) to say that for it's suppleness benefit, latex gives up a significant degree of toughness and resistance to stress concentration as compared to butyl.
(Moving slightly off-topic)
Much like with any "high performance" material. I witnessed yesterday (during a TDF kick-off ride) a rider ahead hit a pothole, lost control and finally crashed along the dirt edge of the roadway.
He was thankfully ok (but for shredded kit and road rash), so I began straightening out both of his Trek carbon bike's RED levers, one of which was broken. The wheels and tires were fine to my surprise, but as he readied himself to ride it he noticed his frame was broken halfway through at both the seat tube and down tube from stress no doubt fed in from what seemed like a "normal" sort of crash impact loading to the pedal. The years-old bike was quite durable until it wasn't, sort of like those latex tubes.

[Bentley]

...or maybe just Vittorias?

Never tried latex tubes in clinchers before.
Recently bought a really nice wheelset from a fellow Paceliner that came with Vittoria Corsas and Vittoria latex tubes.

Tubes looked good, no cracks, lots of talcum, smooth albeit one size smaller than the tires (19/23 vs. 25)

One failed before the first ride, valve stem separated from the black reinforcement patch.
Yesterday, 10 miles into my first ride, the other one flatted.
This time a tiny hole right at the edge to the double latex area close to the valve.

Coincidence, Vittoria issue, tube too small for tire, latex in general?

Would love to give latex tubes another try but not if they just generally tend to be more prone to flats than butyl.

My wrench only uses latex tubes, has told me numerous times he has never had a flat. I have a hard time understanding how that would work any different than butyl rubber, I’m guessing the latex tube stretches more before it fails as compared to a butyl rubber tube. I don’t get a lot of flats so I cannot justify the added cost

[marciero]

…

Another problem related to use of too small of a tube for the tire width is that the tube reaches considerable pressure and stretching (especially near the valve stem reinforcement) as the tube begins to tension the tire casing but before the tube has expanded fully into the rim cavity (especially at the reinforcement patch), which pins the tube against the inside of the tire. Further inflation then sees the tube having to expand more locally (along it's inner surface) into the rim trough, and with the reinforcement patch perhaps still well up into the tire, forcing the tube to stretch in two directions adjacent to the valve reinforcement. This is why we see dimpled areas of the tube wall at each lengthwise end of the reinforcement patch, and where ruptures often occur.

…



It sounds like the tube is more or less locked into position when it is inflated, and does not make micro self-adjustments that even out the tension while riding.
So would talc'ing the tube mitigate this-specifically the non-uniform expanding and tensioning that results from the outer diameter of a too-small tube expanding and locking into the tire before it gets a chance to fill the rim cavity?

[tony_mm]

Using latex tubes for more than 30 years without problems.
However I usually use a new tube whenever I replace the tire.

[Peter P.]

I don't have much to offer on this discussion, but I recently read something of interest.

I took delivery of a new pair of Continental 4000 tires and read all the literature that came with them.

The are A LOT of precautions/exceptions in this literature regarding using their tires with carbon rims.

One of those warnings is to NOT use latex tubes with carbon rims. The inference seemed to be, because carbon rims don't dissipate braking heat as well as aluminum rims, the heat could cause the tube to explode. There are also warnings about sharp edges in carbon rims from construction methods again implies could cut latex tube. I wish I still had the sheet so I could quote their statements for greater accuracy.

While on the subject, could someone answer this question: I've read latex tubes require special patches. True? Where do you get them? Do they require special application techniques?

Thanks!

[soulspinner]

IMO, you should never use a size 19/23 latex tube with a 25mm (or more) tire on a wide rim. Latex tubes are super thin to begin with. By stretching it beyond its range, you are asking for trouble.

This?

[Mike Bryant]

I’ve used Rema Tiptop patches successfully, and have read of others using parts of latex tube to patch with. Haven’t tried that but it makes sense since latex tube manufacturers sleeve one end of the tube over the other and glue it together.
Another tip I picked up somewhere is to clean the patch site with rubbing alcohol to get all the talc off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mdeth1313]

Some good info in here and lots of BS assumptions. I've been riding latex tubes (mostly vittoria) for the last 7-8 years - I've had 2 fail at the valve stem, but only after years of using (and re-using) them. I've also been running the 19-23 tubes in my 25 tires with no issues at all the past 3 years. Patched plenty of latex tubes with the standard repair patches with zero issues as well.

Oh yeah- I've ONLY run latex tubes on my carbon clincher rims and not one has ever exploded.

[jamesdak]

Some good info in here and lots of BS assumptions. I've been riding latex tubes (mostly vittoria) for the last 7-8 years - I've had 2 fail at the valve stem, but only after years of using (and re-using) them. I've also been running the 19-23 tubes in my 25 tires with no issues at all the past 3 years. Patched plenty of latex tubes with the standard repair patches with zero issues as well.

Oh yeah- I've ONLY run latex tubes on my carbon clincher rims and not one has ever exploded.

This! :hello:

I do nothing special for all the latex tubes I use and have no issues. I think people exaggerate a bit when it comes to latex tubes. I would say at least 20,000 miles the past 10 years or so on my bikes with latex tubes.

[r_mutt]

Just buy the Silca ones.
Josh says they have graphene in them


the Silca tubes are rebranded and repackaged Vittoria tubes.

[bironi]

They provide my upper body workout in the warmer months.
Latex tubes lose more air overnight when it is warm.
My Silca floor pumps is my only exercise equipment other than my bikes.
Now if I just had the larger gauge display increments so I could read the #'s.

[thwart]

I’ve used Rema Tiptop patches successfully, and have read of others using parts of latex tube to patch with. Haven’t tried that but it makes sense since latex tube manufacturers sleeve one end of the tube over the other and glue it together.
Another tip I picked up somewhere is to clean the patch site with rubbing alcohol to get all the talc off.


Having just had my first ever latex tube flat after hitting a sharp stone at speed (going downhill), so this is much appreciated.

I'd read someplace that someone had a standard butyl patch (Rema, Park Tools, etc) fail on a latex tube. Maybe the prep you mention beforehand is key.

[Black Dog]

Having just had my first ever latex tube flat after hitting a sharp stone at speed (going downhill), so this is much appreciated.

I'd read someplace that someone had a standard butyl patch (Rema, Park Tools, etc) fail on a latex tube. Maybe the prep you mention beforehand is key.

Peel and stick patches work they just don't last forever before they start to leak.

[kramnnim]

Just had another one of my latex tubes fail at the valve stem rubber area...started with a slow leak that got worse and worse. :(

I have been been using Rema patches. Scuff the tube up with sandpaper, clean with alcohol...works well.

[buddybikes]

Powder powder powder

Installing use some sort of talc

[djg21]

My wrench only uses latex tubes, has told me numerous times he has never had a flat. I have a hard time understanding how that would work any different than butyl rubber, I’m guessing the latex tube stretches more before it fails as compared to a butyl rubber tube. I don’t get a lot of flats so I cannot justify the added cost

IME, If they are installed correctly, they are less apt to flat than butyl tubes. I always use latex tubes, the only exception being in my road tubeless wheels, which I have not yet flatted on in the past 4,000 miles.