Paint flaking on brand new frame

[fellowsun]

Yes I know what you're thinking: Of course paint chips and flakes off of bicycles.

I picked up my new bike 4 months ago and have been riding it constantly. After the first few rides I noticed a few bare spots where paint has flaked off on the chainstays/bottom bracket revealing the steel beneath.

Slightly concerned I contact the builder explaining whats up and he gets me a bottle of touch up paint to cover them. Great! Right?

However the rate of chipping/flaking hasnt decreased. Ive noticed bigger chunks around the dropouts and eyelets coming off to where the eyelet is totally bare steel now.

Overall there are 10-12 places where paint is flaked off ranging from a few mm to a cm.

Am I overreacting or is this happening because of a mistake made during paint?

[Bentley]

It should not be doing this. Sounds like not properly prepped before paint was applied. Steel or aluminum? Not right...😢

[rallizes]

can we see a photo

[Black Dog]

Should not be happening. Something went wrong during the painting process.

[Mzilliox]

this really needs pictures, but that was subpar paint

[AngryScientist]

In general paint that is applied properly and adhered well should only come off if there is mechanical damage to the area or abrasion. It shouldn’t just “flake off” on its own. That suggests a lack of good adhesion that could have been caused by poor prep.

Pictures would help diagnose.

[soulspinner]

Maybe soft due to bad prep or not curing long enough? Had this happen with my first custom. Turns out he tried a paint having just hit the market that "did not need primer" ….well it did. It was soft and flaky. Nearby auto body place sprayed it a Toyota mica color. Came out great and the framebuilder declined to pick up the tab for 175 clams.

[charliedid]

Sorry to hear. I’d press them on it. It’s a great looking bike.


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[fmradio516]

I am having the same thing happen to me. I finally went and bought a new mountain bike (YT) and upon arrival, I notied that there was a bunch of paint chipped off at the rear dropout where the TA goes in. I emailed them and they sent me a bottle of touch up and refunded me the shipping of 100 bucks. Since then, it has randomly chipped without me even riding it in a few other spots. Kinda sucks but its a mountain bike..

[72gmc]

What you describe sounds like my experience with a repaint. It wasn’t done properly.

I have no recourse because the painter was sourced by the shop, and the shop is gone. I’d say you should try to have a conversation with your builder about repaint options. If it’s a poor paint job, it’s not something you can or should have to chase with touch up paint.

[weisan]

Yes I know what you're thinking: Of course paint chips and flakes off of bicycles.


No, that's not what i was thinking.

I was thinking....pictures, please.

[mktng]

sounds like a bad prep job.
i'd contact the builder/shop you got it from for a better solution than simply applying touch up paint.

[fellowsun]

Here are some examples of what I'm talking about:

https://i.ibb.co/swKYQsp/IMG-20190621-163850.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/4Sqf1R0/IMG-20190621-163910.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/4ZgjRqb/IMG-20190621-163929.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/MDB8C0v/IMG-20190621-164054.jpg

[djdj]

I can't explain the eyelet, but to me the rest look like chips from chain slap, rocks or leaning against something. I would definitely put some protection on the chainstay and something to prevent cable rub -- -- the 3M clear tape works well.

[mktng]

oh. was expecting alot worse.
that just seems like normal wear from usage.
i mean... maybe the paint they used was very thin?
the TA flaking is weird, but everything else just seems like normal wear.

however. i do get your frustration.

in this case. a touch up pen would work.
maybe put some frame protection around the HT where the housing rubs against it.

[yinzerniner]

That's just a bad paint job. Subpar or no prep, and don't see any adhesion primer anywhere. Flaking in non-contact areas is unacceptable for such a new frame.

Don't know what you can do other than ask for a bunch of money back or return the frame. If you blast and repaint that could get more expensive than the frameset.

Good luck and keep updating the post.

[fellowsun]

I should mention there are some parts with more normal looking wear. Those don't bother me.

Its specifically where flakes of paint are falling off.

[ultraman6970]

The dropouts is kid'a normal to have paint peeling and it makes sense too.

Regarding the other nicks, probably you got stones to hit the tubes and the paint got a nick, normal use.

Paint will hold depending of many things (even with powder coating)...

1 - preparation work before painting, if the surface preparation is bad the paint will start peeling quicker, or you start with other problems like bobbling paint or even rust under the paint.

2 - Quality of the paint, in a bike is not like a big problem like in a car but the better the paint the better the paint will stand.

3 - primer, you can use so so paint but with a good primer the paint will end up really good, sometimes is the primer that fails and not the paint but since what you see is the paint peeling you might think is the paint.

4 - expect wear and tear in paint but there's limits to it too... OP just use the retouch paint and cover the nicks and look what happens later... the good thing is that you have a frame with no lugs, can be retouched on top imo...

Hope this helps.

[ColonelJLloyd]

If you have it redone consider powdercoat. My frame is over two years old and I've beaten it up and changed the wheels lots. There's lots of marks on the finish, but nothing hinting at chips or the like.

[Peter P.]

The head tube rub and the chainstay chips; those are on you. The others well; you could wish for better paint adhesion and maybe that would have minimized the chipping/flaking, but you're at a point now where I don't think arguing with the builder and returning it makes sense.

Go ahead and touch up the spots, and consider a repaint sooner than typical, but I don't see a need to do it now.

[Dino Suegiù]

I picked up my new bike 4 months ago and have been riding it constantly. After the first few rides I noticed a few bare spots where paint has flaked off on the chainstays/bottom bracket revealing the steel beneath.

Slightly concerned I contact the builder explaining whats up and he gets me a bottle of touch up paint to cover them. Great! Right?

However the rate of chipping/flaking hasnt decreased. Ive noticed bigger chunks around the dropouts and eyelets coming off to where the eyelet is totally bare steel now.

Overall there are 10-12 places where paint is flaked off ranging from a few mm to a cm.

Am I overreacting or is this happening because of a mistake made during paint?
No, the builder sending you a bottle of touch-up paint is not the best resolution.
No, it is not "Great! Right?" (as you already know).
No, that's not "normal wear and tear" on a 4-month old frameset.
No, you are not over-reacting at all.

Of course you should be using head tube and chainstay protection, but those wouldn't have mitigated the flaking issue regardless.

From the photos you posted:
That is a truly terrible, really half-assed looking paint job.
People love to joke/rage about "cheap Italian paint", etc etc...but this looks far worse than that, on an essentially brand new frame.

Now, the price of the frameset may have been super cheap (but you say "builder", so...likely not a Walmart bike), and obviously one certainly can't expect Joe Bell quality on a $500 frameset, so you may have bought what you paid for, but that doesn't alter the fact that the paint job itself is of low quality.

You know what is guaranteed? That more paint will be flaking off, because apparently (as yinzerziner already pointed out above) apparently someone somehow sort of forgot the proper primer stage....

[macaroon]

:D oh my days! Worrying about a few paint chips but letting your cables rub away at the headtube! If it gets repainted, don't let this happen again!

[fellowsun]

Not worried about paint chips/scuffs I can control! Worried that the paint wasn't applied correctly.

:)

[oldpotatoe]

I picked up my new bike 4 months ago and have been riding it constantly. After the first few rides I noticed a few bare spots where paint has flaked off on the chainstays/bottom bracket revealing the steel beneath.

Slightly concerned I contact the builder explaining whats up and he gets me a bottle of touch up paint to cover them

Who made the frame? Same guy painted it?

[AngryScientist]

I'm not a paint expert, but from the photos, i would say that is not a good paint job.

my guess is that the prep was not good/complete.

even if the right primer was used (unknown) - what is also important is that the metal is surgically clean before applying anything. if there is any residual oil, cutting fluid, etc on the metal, the paint or primer just wont stick/adhere to tightly, and you get that situation. Another possibility is that the paint was not cured properly.

in any event, you are in a tough spot, because that's only going to get worse.

don't leave bare metal unattended for long. once rust starts, you've got a lot of chasing to do to keep after it.

[fellowsun]

Who made the frame? Same guy painted it?

Painted by ColorWorks. He does alot of painting for various OR frame builders.

[Clean39T]

You paid a crap-ton for that custom frame and it was sold as coming with "wet paint and spray-on decals" - so, you deserve a quality paint job, which is definitely not what you got there.. IMHO, the builder should be having you drop it off at his shop, stripping the components, sending the frameset in for a do-over, and re-assemblying it for you after a proper curing period with a "sorry for the mishap" demeanor... Mistakes happen. It's what comes next that matters - and that separates good business from mediocre.

[Spoker]

I know it's not pretty , but this makes me realize the value of anodized aluminum or Ti for bikes that leave the pavement, or just have a rough life.

[donevwil]

You paid a crap-ton for that custom frame and it was sold as coming with "wet paint and spray-on decals" - so, you deserve a quality paint job, which is definitely not what you got there.. IMHO, the builder should be having you drop it off at his shop, stripping the components, sending the frameset in for a do-over, and re-assemblying it for you after a proper curing period with a "sorry for the mishap" demeanor... Mistakes happen. It's what comes next that matters - and that separates good business from mediocre.

I am going to agree with this. You purchased your grail bike and this "flaw" would not be considered acceptable by any reputable builder. I'm going to guess that the touch-up paint sent was a reaction to not fully understanding the gravity of the issue. Be straightforward and honest with the builder and I'm sure he'll make it right. If you're handy and enjoy the process, as I do, disassemble and re-assemble yourself to save him some grief and show some good will.

Good luck. You have an awesome rig, don't allow this short term downer to tarnish your opinion of a beautiful bike.

[weisan]

I'm going to guess that the touch-up paint sent was a reaction to not fully understanding the gravity of the issue. Be straightforward and honest with the builder and I'm sure he'll make it right.

That's how I feel too.

[fellowsun]

I reached out to the builder to request the frame be repainted. He said he would ask the painter but essentially said it was out of his control/not his responsibility. Definitely didn't inspire my confidence.

:confused:

[rallizes]

I reached out to the builder to request the frame be repainted. He said he would ask the painter but essentially said it was out of his control/not his responsibility. Definitely didn't inspire my confidence.

:confused:

good to get the word out on builders who can't/won't do it right

[prototoast]

That doesn't look like a well-painted frame, but it's also doesn't look so bad that I think it's reasonable to expect the builder to have it repainted at his expense.

Use the touch up paint, and keep riding it, and it'll hit enough rocks that would chip any bike's paint.

[weiwentg]

If I can add a related question: I had a frame repainted in 2014. The clear coat (but not the underlying paint) peeled in a few spots within about 6 months. It's a bit too late to raise an issue about that, but I also think this was sub-optimal work. Others' thoughts?

[Dino Suegiù]

I reached out to the builder to request the frame be repainted. He said he would ask the painter but essentially said it was out of his control/not his responsibility. Definitely didn't inspire my confidence.

:confused:

So the builder put responsibility in a dinghy, cut the line, and sent it down the river? That practice wouldn't inspire confidence in anyone, and doesn't deserve anybody's future money.

That is a bad paint job on a 6-month old, so basically new, frame, and the builder's "out of my control/responsibility" excuse is hack and unprofessional. He contracted the painter, right? Therefore, he in fact does have the responsibility to deliver a properly finished product to his clients. He did not do that, judging by the photos you posted. The issue is not out of his control at all, and it certainly is his responsibility.

That said, as noted before: it really depends on context which you have not provided yet. If this is a $400 frame, that's one thing. If it is a $1500+ frame, that is obviously a different thing entirely, and we still do not know where your frame sits in that spectrum.

I looked at the ColorWorks page, and they do paint for some notable, respected builders, definitely not second-rate. Your particular paint job looks second-rate, to me, and you are right to be disappointed and expect better. More flaking will occur if the prep was not executed properly, that is a given.

[Dino Suegiù]

If I can add a related question: I had a frame repainted in 2014. The clear coat (but not the underlying paint) peeled in a few spots within about 6 months. It's a bit too late to raise an issue about that, but I also think this was sub-optimal work. Others' thoughts?

Yes, 6 months peeling on clear-coat is definitely sub-optimal. It is a sadly somewhat common complaint especially with "budget" painters; they do not apply the cc under the proper circumstances (one's back yard in humid Florida, etc., isn't "the proper circumstances") and/or do not cure it properly. Nobody has ever complained about Joe Bell, Spectrum, similar, clear coats peeling in 180 days.

Definitely sub-optimal.
Definitely way out too late for compensation/repair.

[rallizes]

...If this is a $400 frame, that's one thing. If it is a $1500+ frame, that is obviously a different thing entirely, and we still do not know where your frame sits in that spectrum...

don't know the exact number but yes it is

[Dino Suegiù]

don't know the exact number but yes it is

Then fellowsun definitely deserves better work than that.

No excuses, no "it's not my fault", no "I'll blame the other guy and you, dear client, you go deal with it".

[AngryScientist]

yea, this would be similar to having a 6 month old BMW that the alternator dies, and them telling you: well bosch built the alternator, so it's not our problem.

it's a chain of accountability issue, you bought the frame from the builder, so he /she is accountable to you, and in turn, the builder should hold the painter accountable for sub par work.

either way, it is a bummer when you wait for a cool frame, anticipate it, etc, and something like this partially spoils the fun. hope it works out for the best.

[donevwil]

Anyone who's followed your recent build knows who this builder is, heck I spoke with them because of the original input you and other shared. No fly zone for me now with this bit of reality.

This is unprofessional behavior from a builder I had thought was respected. Send him a link to this thread and see if that changes his mind.

[R3awak3n]

ALthough I would probably just ride the frame and get it repainted a few years from now (I just would not want to take everything off, send to painter and waiiiiit, also it really does not look so bad), HOWEVER, you are absolutely right at wanting this to be painted properly. If frame was a couple of years old ok, maybe but 6 months it is not acceptable and should be rectified if you so wish.


Someone mentioned if this was a $400 frame, there are not custom $400 frames AFAIK, also not hard to know what frame this is and this is over $2000 frame. Not that it matters how much it costs, bad work is bad work.

[DRietz]

According to the builder's website, this frame was $2300.

[weiwentg]

Yes, 6 months peeling on clear-coat is definitely sub-optimal. It is a sadly somewhat common complaint especially with "budget" painters; they do not apply the cc under the proper circumstances (one's back yard in humid Florida, etc., isn't "the proper circumstances") and/or do not cure it properly. Nobody has ever complained about Joe Bell, Spectrum, similar, clear coats peeling in 180 days.

Definitely sub-optimal.
Definitely way out too late for compensation/repair.

I figured as much. I don't want to say who, but it wasn't a budget painter (but it wasn't Bell or Spectrum, either).

[FlashUNC]

Seems the builder is abdicating a little bit on talking it through with you. Yes, he didn't paint the thing, but if he's sending that out, he should be sending it out to people that'll do work to the quality he wants on his product. After all, it's his or her name on the downtube at the end of the day.

Every frame I've had built, builder stands behind the paint just like anything else related to the workmanship.

[pdmtong]

The contract for purchase is with the builder, and if some aspects of the material fabrication are sub-contracted out (ex: tubes, lugs, paint etc. ) then the builder owns that as well.

Extending the builder's lame approach based on his position with the paint, the builder would only be at fault for weld failure on the frame and not tube or lug failure

if the builder is not owning the paint issue, you are getting ripped off

[Llewellyn]

The contract for purchase is with the builder, and if some aspects of the material fabrication are sub-contracted out (ex: tubes, lugs, paint etc. ) then the builder owns that as well.

Extending the builder's lame approach based on his position with the paint, the builder would only be at fault for weld failure on the frame and not tube or lug failure

if the builder is not owning the paint issue, you are getting ripped off

This. Your contract is with the builder - it's up to him to sort it out. And over here a paint job would be expected to last more than 4 months without problems. The builder says it's not up to him.......b*****ks

[Hilltopperny]

I'll play a bit of devil's advocate here. I ride my bikes over multiple surfaces and although I agree that paint should last more than 6 months it is reasonable to believe that a bike ridden off road would develope nics and such. The places with missing paint are typical places where this stuff happens.

I have a Kirk MRB painted by Joe Bell and the fender mounts looked the same after I mounted fenders for the first time. I have clear tape over the chainstay or it would likely have some chips by now as well. I am in no way unhappy with the bike and find the paint is still stunning, but I also avoid riding it in any kind of inclement weather if I can. For that I ride my titanium bikes because there isnt any paint to get messed up.

Maybe I am in the minority here, but I use my bikes as tools for the job. As such they get scratches and chips at some point. I also understand the type of investment that these bikes entails and can understand that it can be upsetting when the first blemishes show up, but I see them as a badge of honor. A little proof that its been ridden isnt a bad thing.

Another thought is to have your next bike or this one powder coated as it is typically less prone to the chips and scratches then wet paint. It may be a better option for a bike of this type?

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[fellowsun]

I'll say it again: normal wear and tear doesn't bother me. I took my last bike through it all over a few years, serious underbiking on multi-day trips off road. Doesnt show the same type of flaking hence my concern.

[Peter P.]

I reached out to the builder to request the frame be repainted. He said he would ask the painter but essentially said it was out of his control/not his responsibility. Definitely didn't inspire my confidence.

:confused:

The BUILDER is responsible for the paint. He is responsible to the customer for the work ANY of his sub-contractors. Your builder stinks as a businessman.

I ordered a Rock Lobster ATB frame back in 2009. I asked for the frame to have a matte clearcoat, but it came with a gloss clearcoat. I wasn't too bothered by it, but Paul Sadoff offered to make amends with some bike related goods, but I declined.

Two months after taking delivery, the gloss clearcoat was peeling from the powdercoat. Sure; the peeling seemed to be initiated by typical mountain biking conditions, but I expected the clearcoat and powdercoat to be "as one" and not have it flaking off. I contacted Paul and he didn't hesitate to take the frame back to correct the peeling, and at the same time giving me the matte finish I originally asked for. As an aside, I did offer to subsidize some of the cost and my records show I sent him to partially cover the costs.

That's customer service, and one reason he's been in business so long.

[Dino Suegiù]

I'll say it again: normal wear and tear doesn't bother me. I took my last bike through it all over a few years, serious underbiking on multi-day trips off road. Doesnt show the same type of flaking hence my concern.
And again: you are being entirely reasonable. That flaking is not normal "wear and tear"; there is something not proper with the frame prep, primer coat, and/or paint coat, and the problem will persist.

The builder provided you a sub-par product. The paint is not going to magically stop flaking. He should correct the problem, period.

$2300, custom frame? I did know this. In that case the builder's behavior and replies are truly unprofessional and even insulting to you. I do not see how some people here can defend him or advise you to "just deal with it/live with it/touch it up/ride it/re-paint at your cost down the line", etc. They must be more kindhearted than I, but their tune might be different had they spent $2300 of their own....

You decide how to proceed, of course. If it were my frame, I would exhaust all communication with him first in private, and if the responses/service do not improve, then name him here and make it public and name him here (to him as well). People recommend against certain sub-par or faulty components all the time, for our collective good. Frame-builders and painters should not be exempt from those standards at all. People shouldn't be paying very good money for that level of "service" and attitude. If he loses business as a result of his providing sub-par products and abdicating his professional accountability, that's just too damned bad. :mad:

[Dino Suegiù]

I ordered a Rock Lobster...
...I contacted Paul and he didn't hesitate to take the frame back to correct the peeling, and at the same time giving me the matte finish I originally asked for.

That's customer service, and one reason he's been in business so long.
Exactly.

[R3awak3n]

The BUILDER is responsible for the paint. He is responsible to the customer for the work ANY of his sub-contractors. Your builder stinks as a businessman.

I ordered a Rock Lobster ATB frame back in 2009. I asked for the frame to have a matte clearcoat, but it came with a gloss clearcoat. I wasn't too bothered by it, but Paul Sadoff offered to make amends with some bike related goods, but I declined.

Two months after taking delivery, the gloss clearcoat was peeling from the powdercoat. Sure; the peeling seemed to be initiated by typical mountain biking conditions, but I expected the clearcoat and powdercoat to be "as one" and not have it flaking off. I contacted Paul and he didn't hesitate to take the frame back to correct the peeling, and at the same time giving me the matte finish I originally asked for. As an aside, I did offer to subsidize some of the cost and my records show I sent him to partially cover the costs.

That's customer service, and one reason he's been in business so long.


There are a few builders I have heard nothing but good things about, Paul is one of them. Kirk is another. Rob English another. A good builder would most likely make this right.

[Doug Fattic]

I suggest contacting the painter yourself and seeing if he can make it better. While most people would agree that it is the builder’s responsibility even though he didn’t do the work, that doesn’t mean he will or even can get the painter to correct any mistakes. The builder may not agree that the painter is entirely at fault and he might not have any money to pay him to redo it. I wouldn’t be surprised he is much more concerned about his relationship to his painter than he is to you.

The painter is the one that may have screwed up and you probably have more leverage with him. It is his reputation too that is compromised by poor workmanship. To me this is the logical next step. Life isn’t fair and you have to consider about how much of your energy you want to put into getting the results you want. It is possible that the painter can do real touch up with the actual paint he used so that the spots aren’t really noticeable. Of course some will argue that isn’t right or enough but there are times you have to be practical.

[peanutgallery]

So...you rode a budget (ish), custom frame in the dirt and now the paint is janky? Lots of room on the slippery slope and the said/she said kinda stuff

Could be all kinds of miscommunication about usage, materials...etc, etc

Life is short, if you're happy with the build...find a good painter at some point. Ride it until it pukes, bikes are just a tool

[pdmtong]

I'll play a bit of devil's advocate here. I ride my bikes over multiple surfaces and although I agree that paint should last more than 6 months it is reasonable to believe that a bike ridden off road would develope nics and such. The places with missing paint are typical places where this stuff happens.

I have a Kirk MRB painted by Joe Bell and the fender mounts looked the same after I mounted fenders for the first time. I have clear tape over the chainstay or it would likely have some chips by now as well. I am in no way unhappy with the bike and find the paint is still stunning, but I also avoid riding it in any kind of inclement weather if I can. For that I ride my titanium bikes because there isnt any paint to get messed up.

Maybe I am in the minority here, but I use my bikes as tools for the job. As such they get scratches and chips at some point. I also understand the type of investment that these bikes entails and can understand that it can be upsetting when the first blemishes show up, but I see them as a badge of honor. A little proof that its been ridden isnt a bad thing.

Another thought is to have your next bike or this one powder coated as it is typically less prone to the chips and scratches then wet paint. It may be a better option for a bike of this type?
This isn't a matter of tools for the job or expected badges of honor. it's paint failure for no reason other than poor work

I suggest contacting the painter yourself and seeing if he can make it better. While most people would agree that it is the builder’s responsibility even though he didn’t do the work, that doesn’t mean he will or even can get the painter to correct any mistakes. The builder may not agree that the painter is entirely at fault and he might not have any money to pay him to redo it. I wouldn’t be surprised he is much more concerned about his relationship to his painter than he is to you.

The painter is the one that may have screwed up and you probably have more leverage with him. It is his reputation too that is compromised by poor workmanship. To me this is the logical next step. Life isn’t fair and you have to consider about how much of your energy you want to put into getting the results you want. It is possible that the painter can do real touch up with the actual paint he used so that the spots aren’t really noticeable. Of course some will argue that isn’t right or enough but there are times you have to be practical.

Paint flaking on it's own? My aluminum mountain bike looked better than this after ten years of single track pounding. Builder owns it as contract is with builder, not the painter.

If the buyer was ok with flaking paint, then the buyer would not have paid the full price paid by buyers who want non-flaking paint

[prototoast]

Paint flaking on it's own? My aluminum mountain bike looked better than this after ten years of single track pounding. Builder owns it as contract is with builder, not the painter.

If the buyer was ok with flaking paint, then the buyer would not have paid the full price paid by buyers who want non-flaking paint

Not all paint is the same durability, and there is no universal standard for durability. It's hard to say what one was promised relative to what was delivered. No builder would promise unchippable paint. Where is the line, and how much of the responsibility falls on the customer?

If I were to guess (and based on my own experience), this bike was delivered relatively soon after painting. Paints are relatively soft when they're first applied and can take a few months to cure to full hardness. On one of my custom bikes, I think I put about 5 paint chips in it in the first 2 weeks. Hasn't chipped since. Another well-known builder I ordered custom from included a warning that the paint would be soft for the first 30 days and to be extra careful.

Mass produced bikes (which I'm guessing your aluminum mtb was) usually sit for months between paint and delivery to the customer, so this isn't an issue.
But a custom builder trying to offer quick turnaround, combined with a customer who's eager to ride, can often be a disaster for paint.

[CSTRider]

I'd recommend emailing the builder with a link to this thread.

While the results certainly aren't unanimous, they appear overwhelmingly in favor of saying that the builder owns this problem and should take care of it.

And this "jury" is pretty over-represented with custom bike owners and potential customers.

[pdmtong]

Your point is taken and I see how my mtb experience isn't relevant

Chipping I get. I wouldn't hold a painter to immediate durability based on your notes as Soft still to be cured paint I get.

Does Joe Bell or velocolour recommend a cure period of time to perhaps take a bit more care?

But flaking? Paint coming off without perturbation? That'd be hard for me to accept

[Hilltopperny]

This particular bike has been traveled with and has seen gravel/dirt and been ridden. Not everybody's bike riding habits over a few months is the same. I am not saying the paint shouldn't be durable, but if it's been shipped to different countries and enjoyed during travel then I don't think it's that crazy to have a few paint chips is it?

It looks to have been used for travel which likely means that it has been taken apart and packed up a few times?

The pictures I see can be consistent with a travel bike and normal wear and tear. I understand that good money was spent on it and all that, but I think that wet paint on a mixed terrain bike is the least durable solution and will be prone to chips and possibly flaking. I've experienced this before on other high end bikes with reputable painters, but it took longer than six months because I have a bunch of other bikes to ride.

My Duende cx bike has similar chipping on the top tube as well as a Zanc cx painted by Hot Tubes. I dont think anybody here would say that Dario or Toby didnt know how to paint or that his method was flawed? In all reality they were cross bikes that had mud, dirt and gravel/rocks thrown up at them and as far as I know there isn't a wet paint used on bicycles that is impervious to chipping under those circumstances.

I know I will remain in the minority here on this, but I am not sure that we should all be ready to grab our torch and pitchfork just yet. I personally would just touch up, ride and enjoy the beautiful bicycle and realize that it wasn't built for show, but as a tool to get out and enjoy. If the bike fits and rides well then have it powder coated in a few years for a more durable finish.

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[providence]

A quality paint on properly prepped and cured metal (bike frame or otherwise) surface will not chip off in a way that is demonstrated in these photos. Wear or not. The cable rub is an embarrassing example IMO. We all should know what cable rub should look like. How often have you seen paint completely chip away in that area?

[ultraman6970]

That green frame with the clearcoat peeling is clear coat failure...

As for the blue frame that was posted at the beginning is hard to tell if the paint failed or is wear and tear and a painter well can claim that is wear and tear because there's no way for him to know certainly what happened but a wear and tear situation.

Nos saying that you can not get adherence problems due to lack of pre-paint work ok? So if the builder and painter want to get a way out of it, they can. Bi way to know.

I would do a video with duct tape on top and see what happens, paint should not peel... send that and with that you have a base to claim that the paint job is busted.


As for the green picture, that's clearcoat that started bubbling because the frame wasnt cleaned properly after the base coat, temperature problems, bad clear, mixing of chemicals in the clear are wrong, who knows. But since is powder coating my best guess is that the dude did not cleaned the frame right because shooting the clear coat, so if grease is under it if wont stick and will start peeling. Some clears can take sunlight better than other ones but at this point if that peeling happened after a few days or months then the painter screwed it up. That's not wear and tear. If it happens after a couple of years I would call that wear and tear and you can't complain about it. Fox is pretty easy tho.

[Tickdoc]

This post is a tough one for me to form an opinion on. All the chips look like places of wear, not paint merely flaking off.

I’ve got a colnago ct1 with paint peeling everywhere.....but I bought it used And the paint was peeling when I bought it. Add in I knew well in advance that those models had paint peeling problems.

I would probably feel different if I ordered it new.

I haven't gone through each response line by line, but what is the builder’s response to the wear?

[R3awak3n]

This particular bike has been traveled with and has seen gravel/dirt and been ridden. Not everybody's bike riding habits over a few months is the same. I am not saying the paint shouldn't be durable, but if it's been shipped to different countries and enjoyed during travel then I don't think it's that crazy to have a few paint chips is it?

It looks to have been used for travel which likely means that it has been taken apart and packed up a few times?

The pictures I see can be consistent with a travel bike and normal wear and tear. I understand that good money was spent on it and all that, but I think that wet paint on a mixed terrain bike is the least durable solution and will be prone to chips and possibly flaking. I've experienced this before on other high end bikes with reputable painters, but it took longer than six months because I have a bunch of other bikes to ride.

My Duende cx bike has similar chipping on the top tube as well as a Zanc cx painted by Hot Tubes. I dont think anybody here would say that Dario or Toby didnt know how to paint or that his method was flawed? In all reality they were cross bikes that had mud, dirt and gravel/rocks thrown up at them and as far as I know there isn't a wet paint used on bicycles that is impervious to chipping under those circumstances.

I know I will remain in the minority here on this, but I am not sure that we should all be ready to grab our torch and pitchfork just yet. I personally would just touch up, ride and enjoy the beautiful bicycle and realize that it wasn't built for show, but as a tool to get out and enjoy. If the bike fits and rides well then have it powder coated in a few years for a more durable finish.

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I went back and looked at the photos and I see your point for sure. Really apart from the area by the fork TA, the rest does not look like anything but chips. My Cielo that is 2 months old has more chips than this bike already and looked brand new when I bought it. I don't really care and not something that bothers me and why I would just touch up this one and go on with my life but part of me understand the OP, I did not pay what he paid or wait the time he waited for that frame so he has a lot more invested in it than me :)

[fellowsun]

I appreciate the opinions and feedback. I think it's a reflection of where my mind is at too. 80% of me feels like I paid for something I didn't get and it rightfully deserves to be corrected, 20% feels like I don't want to care because I'm just enjoying riding the bike.

[prototoast]

.

Regarding travelling with and riding the bike, it started flaking like this after the first ride. A road ride

Is it still chipping just as easily? The first ride is going to be when the paint is softest, and it'll chip easily. If it's still chipping just as easy, it probably was applied poorly. If it's more durable now, you rode it too soon before the paint was cured.

[pdmtong]

You may not get a remedy for this but pretty sure that if you touch up the paint and enjoy the ride a year from now it won't matter at all. It only matters right now. Which is a sign to exhale and apply energy elsewhere.

Yes I wouldn't be happy initially too but re-reading the opposing views has very insightful.

[unterhausen]

I know I'm the only one in this thread that thinks so, but $2300 for a wet painted bike is not enough. A warranty that covers relatively minor damage like this would drive the price up quite a bit.

I would say that "flaking" is not the right word. It's chipping, when hit with something.

[fellowsun]

I know I'm the only one in this thread that thinks so, but $2300 for a wet painted bike is not enough. A warranty that covers relatively minor damage like this would drive the price up quite a bit.

I would say that "flaking" is not the right word. It's chipping, when hit with something.

So if I paid $3000 would that make my claim valid?

[Dino Suegiù]

So if I paid $3000 would that make my claim valid?

I have always thought you have a valid claim as it is, regardless of money spent (since the frame is relatively new and custom to you)...$1500 - $2300 - $3000, whatever.

However I also do not think that unterhausen is making that kind of assertion, that "$3K = valid", at all. His point is fair, and really none of us actually know the cause of the issue, not having seen the frame and having only your account and the images you posted as our basis for comment.

My personal feeling from that "evidence" is that your claim is likely valid, but really the only negotiations that actually count are those between yourself and the builder, and then between the builder and the painter on your behalf (if the builder is even willing to stand by you vs the painter which, as Doug Fattic already pointed out, may not be the case). We do not know. Good luck.

[unterhausen]

So if I paid $3000 would that make my claim valid?

The normal business model of builders is to just price the paint job in with no markup at all. It's one of the few businesses where that is the case. Most well-run businesses would figure they should charge you some integer multiple of the cost of the paint job. And if the customers weren't going to pay $3000 for a paint job, then figure out some other process. This is one of many reasons why so few builders actually make it long-term.

I expect your builder doesn't have a lot of experience in the area of disappointing paint performance. I'm not convinced the painter would consider it a failed paint job, but I would ask them. In any event, you're probably asking the builder to lose a decent sum on this bike. The builder doesn't have particularly good margins on this bike, so a full, no questions asked warranty covering paint chips under rough usage was not priced in, like it or not. I suppose it's a (probably unwitting) form of self-insurance on the builder's part.

It's not like you're asking the same thing from Walmart. But then again, everything Walmart sells has better margins than this frame did.

[fellowsun]

The normal business model of builders is to just price the paint job in with no markup at all. It's one of the few businesses where that is the case. Most well-run businesses would figure they should charge you some integer multiple of the cost of the paint job. And if the customers weren't going to pay $3000 for a paint job, then figure out some other process. This is one of many reasons why so few builders actually make it long-term.

I expect your builder doesn't have a lot of experience in the area of disappointing paint performance. I'm not convinced the painter would consider it a failed paint job, but I would ask them. In any event, you're probably asking the builder to lose a decent sum on this bike. The builder doesn't have particularly good margins on this bike, so a full, no questions asked warranty covering paint chips under rough usage was not priced in, like it or not. I suppose it's a (probably unwitting) form of self-insurance on the builder's part.

It's not like you're asking the same thing from Walmart. But then again, everything Walmart sells has better margins than this frame did.

Guess I'm being naive. I would think if a builder works exclusively with one painter they would likely have some sort of vendor discount. Thinking it would be cheaper for them to fix the mistake than for me to.

It looks like it's been used roughly, but it hasn't been. This is exactly my point.

I will hopefully hear back from the builder soon and we can figure out a resolution.

[pbarry]

Bottom offer I would accept is a powder coat job/equivalent $$ from someone reputable. Builder will save time & $$ and can choose to split the cost with his painter--not your problem nor are his margins.

Hang tough, you should get what you paid for and the builder needs to up his game. Teachable moment. :)

[Doug Fattic]

I’ve been painting bicycle frames for over 40 years. I use clear disposable cups that hold the paint in the spray gun when putting on the final polyurethane clear coats. That way there is less chance of contamination. This is a paint that hardens by chemical action when the activator is mixed in just before spraying. Because there is a little left over when the job is finished, I set this cup with the unused paint aside until it hardens up before throwing it away. It usually takes about 2 (maybe 3) months for the paint in that cup to shrink to its final cured state (which is about half the size of when it was liquid). That is how long it takes for a paint job to be fully cured. Even after a couple of weeks the paint in the cup has hardly shrunk at all meaning it still has quite a way to go until fully cured.

When I look close at the damage, I see trauma induced small chips. Like unterhausen says I think “flaking” is the wrong term. That happened on the green frame when the clear continued to peel off past where the damage originates. Flaking is caused by improper painting methods while chipping is caused by something hitting or scratching it.

I’m going to continue to suggest that you go to the painter and request he do the touch up. He has the exact right color and hardening activator so the repair is not going to look bad like nail polish or not-quite-the-right-color Tester’s model paint. If you want to be a “reasonable customer” to the builder and painter (rather than a “difficult customer”), you will approach them with the idea that they touch up the small damaged areas 1st and see if that isn’t a satisfactory solution. Asking either one of those guys that are not making a living wage on what you paid for the frame and paint for a full redo is going to get a lot of pushback.

[fellowsun]

I’ve been painting bicycle frames for over 40 years. I use clear disposable cups that hold the paint in the spray gun when putting on the final polyurethane clear coats. That way there is less chance of contamination. This is a paint that hardens by chemical action when the activator is mixed in just before spraying. Because there is a little left over when the job is finished, I set this cup with the unused paint aside until it hardens up before throwing it away. It usually takes about 2 (maybe 3) months for the paint in that cup to shrink to its final cured state (which is about half the size of when it was liquid). That is how long it takes for a paint job to be fully cured. Even after a couple of weeks the paint in the cup has hardly shrunk at all meaning it still has quite a way to go until fully cured.

When I look close at the damage, I see trauma induced small chips. Like unterhausen says I think “flaking” is the wrong term. That happened on the green frame when the clear continued to peel off past where the damage originates. Flaking is caused by improper painting methods while chipping is caused by something hitting or scratching it.

I’m going to continue to suggest that you go to the painter and request he do the touch up. He has the exact right color and hardening activator so the repair is not going to look bad like nail polish or not-quite-the-right-color Tester’s model paint. If you want to be a “reasonable customer” to the builder and painter (rather than a “difficult customer”), you will approach them with the idea that they touch up the small damaged areas 1st and see if that isn’t a satisfactory solution. Asking either one of those guys that are not making a living wage on what you paid for the frame and paint for a full redo is going to get a lot of pushback.

Thanks for your input. Ive heard back from the builder and that was his offer after discussing it with the painter. Their verdict was that it looked like normal wear and tear.

I guess in the end its my fault for not letting the paint cure fully before riding it :confused: