Friday Night Dreaming - Where do you buy a condo to rent out now and retire to later?

[MattTuck]

What little corner of the country (or world) would you look at to buy a unit that satisfies the following?

1. Fairly cheap (ie. not in one of the hot real estate markets). Let's say a 2 bed/2 bath unit for under $250K.

2. Close to decent year round cycling with enough terrain/routes to keep a retired person busy. Mountain biking nearby is a plus, but not a requirement. But, access to good roads with minimal cars would be key.

3. Convenient enough to get to for a week or 2 week vacation annually.

4. Enough local attractions that you could use AirBNB (or similar) to rent it out and cover most of the expenses during the time you're not there.

[fa63]

At the moment, you probably don't have too many options. Wait until the mini-bubble we are in bursts, then you can probably buy something pretty much anywhere you like :)

I would look at somewhere in Asheville, NC or Chattanooga, TN (but I am biased being that we live in Atlanta).

[eddief]

Sonoma, CA.

[prototoast]

Sonoma, CA.

Sonoma is great, but a little pricey. Within California, he might be able to find a place within his budget near Folsom Lake that might work well.

[buddybikes]

Since it is Fri night dreaming - Bristol RI: https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/217-Hope-St-Apt-6_Bristol_RI_02809_M45944-48667?view=qv

yes more than your budget but make you salivate a bit

If you are in the North East, I think southeastern part of MA is hidden gem, great riding, prices aren't Boston, and access to Boston heathcare if needed.

Be realistic, will you need care when older, and what type of medical center you want.

We bought small bungalow on Narragansett (east) bay few years ago, 920sf and dreamlike setting.

1697980781

[Ralph]

You want a 2/2 or 3/2 with at least a 2 car garage condo. You will need some storage space. With an extra bed room.....you can lock it off from the rest of place when you rent it out....keep some stuff there.

[Ozz]

Montana....close to Glacier NP

Or somewhere near Spokane / Couer d'Alene / Pend Oreille

Doesn't check the year 'round cycling or close by boxes....but other are OK

[Hellgate]

I want a place with low humidity. I'm over Austin summers.

[Ken Robb]

What kind of rental program would you anticipate? What attractions would there be for short-term renters? I gather from your plan to use it yourself for a couple of weeks each year that year-round rentals would not work.

I live near UCSD so I am quite familiar with condos that can be rented for the school year to students. Few landlords are willing to leave them vacant for 3 months in the Summer so they require one year leases or longer. Our Mission Beach area has a long tradition of renting apartments, condos and houses for BIG BUCKS to vacationers in the Summer and at "reasonable" rates to students or teachers the other 9 months but the sale prices are HIGH.

Assuming this plan is to buy now and enjoy appreciation until you retire and move in permanently does it make sense to buy in an area that is cheap now and probably not appreciating? I can tell you that condos in high-demand areas appreciate nicely if buildable land is scarce. If there is PLENTY of buildable land buyers won't pay much for old units when they can buy new ones.

[echappist]

What little corner of the country (or world) would you look at to buy a unit that satisfies the following?

1. Fairly cheap (ie. not in one of the hot real estate markets). Let's say a 2 bed/2 bath unit for under $250K.

2. Close to decent year round cycling with enough terrain/routes to keep a retired person busy. Mountain biking nearby is a plus, but not a requirement. But, access to good roads with minimal cars would be key.

3. Convenient enough to get to for a week or 2 week vacation annually.

4. Enough local attractions that you could use AirBNB (or similar) to rent it out and cover most of the expenses during the time you're not there.

just spitballing it here, but at $250k/yr, taxes alone would likely be $2000/yr. You are probably looking at at least $150/month in HOA charges. So that's the fixed charge (sure to rise from here on out) that has to be paid, regardless of whether there's any revenue coming in. And we haven't even began dealing with home owner insurance, which probably will be quite a bit higher, given the commercial nature of the place. So let's say $5.5k/yr, for the HOA, tax, and insurance.

You need at least $450/month in profit to offset that (and we have even entertained how you'll be paying principle and interest, if you are financing). Is it doable, perhaps. But this would be a hard ask for something carried on the back of Air BnB rental.

That said, I know of a place that satisfies requirements 1)-3): Wintergreen, VA. It's 45 minutes from Charlottesville, and even closer to quite a few decent vineyards. Relatively ease of access.

Bills paid by skiers in the winter and whole host of tourists in the summer. I even recall that there was a MTB race on the premise when I was there three years ago. Only draw back is that if you want to bike to your door, you better have a 4.0 w/kg FTP. The climb up to any residence on the "hill" is no joke. Extended stretches at 12%

For instance, check out this place: https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Wintergreen-VA/107965367_zpid/21348_rid/2-_beds/100000-200000_price/383-765_mp/12m_days/globalrelevanceex_sort/37.931099,-78.911405,37.888572,-78.985219_rect/13_zm/0_mmm/

$150k for a 2BR. $400/month HOA, $72/month taxes, and $52/month in insurance (though likely low). Tack on $572/month for principal + interest

Back when I visited, nightly rate was $135/night for a 1-Br loft. I'd imagine you could get $200/night for a 2Br. Assuming 75% occupancy for weekends and at least two days rental, you are looking at $15k/yr (before AirBnB takes its cut). It would appear that this would at least be feasible. You'd probably want to contract out the cleaning, which will also eat into your profit, but at least you have a decent shot at being close to revenue positive.

[MattTuck]

The Southern New England suggestion is interesting. Maybe not year round, but probably 9 months of fairly decent weather. Compared to northern new england, where we have 6 or 7 decent months.

Coeur d'Alene is another great suggestion. Beautiful country.

Ashville seems an obvious spot, but maybe too crowded out.


What kind of rental program would you anticipate? What attractions would there be for short-term renters? I gather from your plan to use it yourself for a couple of weeks each year that year-round rentals would not work.
...
Assuming this plan is to buy now and enjoy appreciation until you retire and move in permanently does it make sense to buy in an area that is cheap now and probably not appreciating? I can tell you that condos in high-demand areas appreciate nicely if buildable land is scarce. If there is PLENTY of buildable land buyers won't pay much for old units when they can buy new ones.

Good points, as usual Ken.

just spitballing it here, but at $250k/yr, taxes alone would likely be $2000/yr. You are probably looking at at least $150/month in HOA charges. So that's the fixed charge (sure to rise from here on out) that has to be paid, regardless of whether there's any revenue coming in. And we haven't even began dealing with home owner insurance, which probably will be quite a bit higher, given the commercial nature of the place. So let's say $5.5k/yr, for the HOA, tax, and insurance.

You need at least $450/month in profit to offset that (and we have even entertained how you'll be paying principle and interest, if you are financing). Is it doable, perhaps. But this would be a hard ask for something carried on the back of Air BnB rental.

...


Jim, party pooper :) But obviously these are the kinds of things to seriously consider. Interesting that there is a ski area in VA. Gives a bit more opportunity to rent it out in the winter.

At the moment, you probably don't have too many options. Wait until the mini-bubble we are in bursts, then you can probably buy something pretty much anywhere you like :)

I would look at somewhere in Asheville, NC or Chattanooga, TN (but I am biased being that we live in Atlanta).

Seriously! I hear that, but if we enter into a period of high inflation, who knows where house prices could go ;) The Asheville and Chattanooga suggestions resonate. I think I looked at some rides around Chattanooga once. Seem to recall it had some cool options.

[Louis]

I would think that "reasonable costs" and "year-round riding weather" are two characteristics that tend not to be found in the same place.

[Spaghetti Legs]

My hometown of Charlottesville (near Wintergreen noted above) is pricey but not on level of California, DC, NYC. People here rent their homes out all the time; I hear stuff like “staying with my brother this weekend while I rent my house out”. Around UVA graduation or other events, not uncommon to rent places out for $500/night.

Average real estate price in town is $200/sf.

Major academic medical center in town. Weather is pretty good, lots of arts, entertainment, restaurants, breweries, vineyards.

[rnhood]

Asheville is way too crowded and the downtown area is seedy. Homes/condos are extremely expensive. The surrounding area is beautiful with lots of outdoor things to do though.

Coeur d'Alene is simply gorgeous, although a little remote.

The above mentioned Wintergreen area is very nice, and bike riding in the surrounding area it outstanding. Charlottesville kind of goes without saying. Its a quality area.

Florida has some nice areas, but it's getting overcrowded here too. Home and/or condo maintenance will require deep pockets as a general rule.

My advice is to invest your money and buy once you retire.

[echappist]

Jim, party pooper :) But obviously these are the kinds of things to seriously consider. Interesting that there is a ski area in VA. Gives a bit more opportunity to rent it out in the winter.


the cost consideration part or the w/kg part :p

Jest aside, I bet no other site mentioned has as much cycling history as Wintergreen. Anybody wanna take a guess at what the connection is?

[MattTuck]

the cost consideration part or the w/kg part :p

Jest aside, I bet no other site mentioned has as much cycling history as Wintergreen. Anybody wanna take a guess at what the connection is?

ZING!

well played, sir.

I don't know the cycling connection, though.

[MattTuck]

My hometown of Charlottesville ...

Charlottesville kind of goes without saying. Its a quality area.


Yes, I hear there are good people on both sides there. :) Sorry, couldn't resist.


rnhood, I've heard that parts of northern Florida (pan handle) are actually fairly hilly. Good idea.

[donevwil]

...I don't know the cycling connection, though.

Tour de POTIS/duPont

Did a self guided tour following the Du Pont one year, that climb is a B. BEAUTIFUL area to ride, or not.

[ElvisMerckx]

Anybody wanna take a guess at what the connection is?

Tour DuPont, Tour de Trump, Tour of Shenandoah, etc

[zlin]

Greece

[msl819]

I want a place with low humidity. I'm over Austin summers.

I second that... try summers in Louisiana!

[echappist]

ZING!

well played, sir.

I don't know the cycling connection, though.

needless to say, we are on the same boat :).

thank goodness for more road derailleurs handling 36teeth cassettes. I climbed that brute last time I was there, but there was so much chain clanking and clattering that I doubt I had a very efficient drivetrain. Absolutely shattered by the time I got to the top

------------------------------------------------------------------
Tour de POTIS/duPont

Did a self guided tour following the Du Pont one year, that climb is a B. BEAUTIFUL area to ride, or not.

Tour DuPont, Tour de Trump, Tour of Shenandoah, etc

Now that's interesting. I haven't heard of Tour of Shenandoah

Tour DuPont is the one I had in mind.

https://www.si.com/vault/1992/05/25/126566/an-uphill-victory-greg-lemond-conquered-wintergreen-mountain-and-a-topflight-field-of-cyclists-to-win-his-first-tour-du-pont

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvnrzU-rGX0

[fa63]

I think I looked at some rides around Chattanooga once. Seem to recall it had some cool options.

Chattanooga has great road and MTB options. Plus really good food :)

[weisan]

Cuba

[gavingould]

many condo boards are likely to have bylaws that do not permit short-term rentals or subleases, or clauses that a certain percentage of the units must be owner-occupied.

speaking from experience as a ~15 year condo owner.
bylaws differ from community to community and can be modified, but take into consideration how badly you want to be a landlord. it can be a real pain in the saddle area.

[echelon_john]

St George, Utah. Tons of development, reasonable prices, great riding, strong rental market, close to Zion...

[Lovetoclimb]

I’ve been living in the greater Asheville NC area for 8 years now and in that time watched the real estate market climb and climb. It surely has to peak but nobody I know buying and selling seems to think that will be soon. While I encourage people to check it out, visit here, move here, the smaller towns within 30-45 mins offer a lot of charm without the masses of tourism and the real estate is still reasonable. 2/2 for 250k in AVL, no way! Brevard, Waynesville, Hendersonville, Black Mountain, Weaverville any beyond all very possible. And there will never be a shortage of tenants looking to rent said property until you want to move in.

[josephr]

Chattanooga has great road and MTB options. Plus really good food :)

I like the Chattanooga option, but winters for tourists are dead....though you'll make some $ in the summer, especially as you get closer to the Ocoee/Hiawassee areas.

If I were in the market, the long-term value investment is the Red River Gorge in Eastern Kentucky. Beautiful area, great riding, and right now investments prices are pretty good compared to some of the more traffic areas. Like Chattanooga, winter rentals may be hit-n-miss. Asheville, NC is really nice year round.

[Likes2ridefar]

Near Scottsdale, arizona. Super easy Airbnb, potential significant income in peak seasons especially during spring training.

Not such a bad retirement area either...

[Steve in SLO]

There are some areas near Palm Springs that might fit the bill.

[Gsinill]

Portugal

[MattTuck]

I know user rain dogs moved from Canada (I think) to Spain, for business reasons. Wonder what his thoughts are on staying there long term.

[Kirk007]

What's your retirement timeline? Anticipate a lot of change in 20 years. What's good now may kinda suck then. So unless the investment opportunity is better than other investment opportunities I'd pass

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

[DRietz]

I know user rain dogs moved from Canada (I think) to Spain, for business reasons. Wonder what his thoughts are on staying there long term.

I have a couple of friends who moved to Girona. Their "penthouse" apt is $500/month. Residency was incredibly easy for them to establish.

I think they're in cycling heaven.

Spain is about 30% less expensive than the rest of Europe and just as beautiful. If you wanted to drop the cost even more, Portugal is a serious suggestion.

AND if you can work out citizenship, hello healthcare...

[Climb01742]

The other crucial element I'd add is good food. Good and varied cuisines. Unfortunately that crosses many places off a list. Or maybe food just means too much to me.;)

[sparky33]

It’s difficult to pin a location now for a retirement that is not near term. Liquidity is important.

$250 will be priced out of most NE coastal spots within a mile of water. Though suggestions for RI or eastern CT may have options.

Surely you already have the spreadsheet running, because you would. As others mentioned, it is difficult to make profit on a seasonal vacation rental unless you are in a prime location with big initial capital. And the consistent rental volume needed would likely incur considerable annual maintenance work because short term renters wear and tear. Also costing time you don’t have...it is always something.

It may make sense to separate family vacation & retirement home from investment property.

Come to think of it, I wonder if Hanover might be great investment because many student/faculty renters and possibly affordable 2br or multi family away from the town center.

[buddybikes]

Over budget but sure rentable: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/220-Narragansett-Ave-Riverside-RI-02915/66042431_zpid/

[texbike]

I want a place with low humidity. I'm over Austin summers.

Seriously! And it's only mid-June....


I have a couple of friends who moved to Girona. Their "penthouse" apt is $500/month. Residency was incredibly easy for them to establish.

I think they're in cycling heaven.

Spain is about 30% less expensive than the rest of Europe and just as beautiful. If you wanted to drop the cost even more, Portugal is a serious suggestion.

AND if you can work out citizenship, hello healthcare...

Wow! Perhaps I should brush up on my Spanish. ;)

For the US, I would really be tempted by Sequim, WA. Close to Olympic National Park, moderate climate, the ability to ride year round (if you don't mind a little rain), not far from Port Angeles and a ferry ride across to Victoria/Vancouver Island and all of the cycling and cultural options that offers, close to the coast for kayaking/sailing/fishing, and not far from Seattle.

Texbike

[nickl]

What's your retirement timeline? Anticipate a lot of change in 20 years. What's good now may kinda suck then. So unless the investment opportunity is better than other investment opportunities I'd pass

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

So true. Hang tight on buying anything until you retire. Second homes can be a real headache especially when you are a landlord. Right after you retire do some traveling to help figure out where you want to land with help narrowing down options from ‘places rated’ articles and websites.

Beyond cost of living, climate and suitability for cycling consider healthcare which becomes very important as you age, along with access to non-cycling interests for you and your spouse/partner and transportation infrastructure among other things. I am currently into this now and have decided to avoid areas right on the sea coast and sites with a history of flooding since this has become an increasing concern as climate change influenced weather events become more prevalent.

[Mr. Pink]

I have a couple of friends who moved to Girona. Their "penthouse" apt is $500/month. Residency was incredibly easy for them to establish.

I think they're in cycling heaven.

Spain is about 30% less expensive than the rest of Europe and just as beautiful. If you wanted to drop the cost even more, Portugal is a serious suggestion.

AND if you can work out citizenship, hello healthcare...

Doubtful you'll score EU citizenship, but, even private health insurance is cheap, relatively speaking. It's less than what I'm paying for Medicare B and a supplement AARP medigap policy

[Mr. Pink]

Also, I'm watching the Spanish RE market for effects of Brexit. There are tons of Brit retirees who moved there over the past three decades , and they won't have health insurance or freedom of movement anymore. Has to effect the RE pricing. The coasts resemble Florida in a lot of places.

[Mr. Pink]

To the OP, furgetabout such a cheap condo in a desirable place for rentals. Ain't gonna happen. AirB&B has put the final spike in that coffin of affordability.

[djg]

On the OP's initial set of conditions . . . I'd be disinclined to do it. There are ways to make it work, of course, and places as different as Charlottesville and Santa Fe have appeal (and, if expensive by some standards, are affordable by big coastal cities standards). But if I were not on the verge of retirement, I'd be disinclined to buy a place in which I planned to vacation 1 or 2 weeks per year for a number of years on the notion that I'd retire there. There are really two parts to this: (1) When, where, and how does one want to retire (and provide for that)? and (2) Does one want to purchase a vacation/rental property as an investment? I don't doubt that there are good ways to bundle those two sets of questions -- I actually know people who've retired happily to their vacation homes -- but the questions aren't necessarily folded together all that neatly. FWIW, I'm 58 (will be turning 59 this summer) and could manage such an investment, but I'm not considering any such thing.

[Hellgate]

Seriously! And it's only mid-June....









Wow! Perhaps I should brush up on my Spanish. ;)



For the US, I would really be tempted by Sequim, WA. Close to Olympic National Park, moderate climate, the ability to ride year round (if you don't mind a little rain), not far from Port Angeles and a ferry ride across to Victoria/Vancouver Island and all of the cycling and cultural options that offers, close to the coast for kayaking/sailing/fishing, and not far from Seattle.



TexbikeAnd...less wind! This year the winds from the south have ready been strong. Heading out now with 20 to 25 mph! Ugh...

I have a feeling August and September will be worse than usual this year.

[Rpoole8537]

I have a couple of friends who moved to Girona. Their "penthouse" apt is $500/month. Residency was incredibly easy for them to establish.

I think they're in cycling heaven.

Spain is about 30% less expensive than the rest of Europe and just as beautiful. If you wanted to drop the cost even more, Portugal is a serious suggestion.

AND if you can work out citizenship, hello healthcare...

I dated someone from Spain for many years, and although we are no longer a couple, Spain continues to be of interest to me. I've been retired for almost four years and getting a bit tired of the political rhetoric in our country. I'm curious about residency requirements, etc. I would not buy there but would rent for a few years just for the experience. I live in upstate South Carolina and it's great for cycling. Perhaps not so great for rentals depending on where you buy. I live only 35 miles from Asheville, but summer traffic on I 26 can be awful.

[Kirk007]

Along the lines of my earlier comment but a bit more precise inquiry: do look at climate change projections for areas. I have my doubts as to the habitability of some places 20 years from now. As an example, look at current summer temperatures in Phoenix then look at the projections.....

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

[Mr. Pink]

I am reminded of Gene Hackman as Lex Luther in the first Superman.

[Mr. Pink]

I dated someone from Spain for many years, and although we are no longer a couple, Spain continues to be of interest to me. I've been retired for almost four years and getting a bit tired of the political rhetoric in our country. I'm curious about residency requirements, etc. I would not buy there but would rent for a few years just for the experience. I live in upstate South Carolina and it's great for cycling. Perhaps not so great for rentals depending on where you buy. I live only 35 miles from Asheville, but summer traffic on I 26 can be awful.


If you can prove a low middle class income (SS and a pension) before moving, Spain welcomes you, especially now.

[93KgBike]

If you can afford to buy the condo turnkey @ $250k; maybe you should bank the upfront cash, monthly payments and expenses, etc., into an investment account instead of buying the condo. Would give you the flexibility to change your mind as you age towards retirement (if that even exists anymore).

[MattTuck]

If you can afford to buy the condo turnkey @ $250k; maybe you should bank the upfront cash, monthly payments and expenses, etc., into an investment account instead of buying the condo. Would give you the flexibility to change your mind as you age towards retirement (if that even exists anymore).

Yes for sure. Called the thread "Friday night dreaming", not "seriously considering retirement options". 250K would buy a lot of vacations to explore potential locations.

And the point made earlier is well received, that in 20ish years, even a new condo in 2019 may feel quite dated without a serious commitment to building a reserve and doing updates.

I tend to agree based on the pure financial calculations, that it is probably not a home run -- and certainly decreases future optionality. Once you're able to move there full time, or half time, I can imagine the economics get much better.

[Ken Robb]

A general thought on location: there are places like Aspen and La Jolla that work well for people who live there 1/2 the year because they both have at least two "seasons" for renters. Aspen obviously is very popular for ski season but it's also delightful in Summer with a music festival and lots of other things to do. La Jolla may be most popular/espensive in the Summer but it's pretty nice all year.

My point is in areas like these an owner has a good chance at renting their home for the season they don't prefer to people with different interests than theirs. Of course both of these area are VERY EXPENSIVE so they are out of reach for many. Heck, I couldn't afford to move to LJ now but the two-season idea surely works in other areas.

Mammoth Lakes, CA. is a HUGE ski area (the season this year will run into August) but it's also nice in the summer with cycling, fishing, tennis, hiking, etc. and it's relatively affordable for California.

[Mr. Pink]

If you're thinking of a condo in ski country that may have decent summer biking at the OPs price level, look at Vermont and northest areas. Very cheap right now. My buddy just rented a very nice one bedroom right at the base of Pico mountain last ski season that is on the market for 65 grand. Many more examples out there.

[Matt92037]

Bend Oregon. Top notch MTB, road riding and snow boarding Batchelor. Flying there tomorrow.

[poff]

Bormio. You get Stelvio, Gavia, Mortirolo, and others to climb in the summer and then you can ski in the winter. The town is very nice as well. Bolzano(Bozen) would be my second choice.

[CNY rider]

If you're thinking of a condo in ski country that may have decent summer biking at the OPs price level, look at Vermont and northest areas. Very cheap right now. My buddy just rented a very nice one bedroom right at the base of Pico mountain last ski season that is on the market for 65 grand. Many more examples out there.

I’d be worried about the 20 year horizon though.
If I were buying near a NE ski area I wold keep it to a top tier resort, like Stowe or Killington.
Which of course will be more expensive.
But I’d feel confident they will be operating in 20 years.
I wouldn’t want to bet anything long term on second tier resorts like Pico.
It may be near Killington but who knows if it will be operating in 20 or 30 years.

[Mr. Pink]

Pico is owned by Killington, and it's right around the corner, anyway.

[oldpotatoe]

Cuba
While the locals are now allowed to own, buy and sell property, the government is still maintaining very tight control over the entire market. Any foreigner who is interested in Cuban real estate should become well-versed with Chapter 6 of Article 17.1. Read on to find out more about the property market on this island before making any kind of investment.
It is important to note that the above suggestions only apply to non-Americans. If you are a US national, you cannot buy any kind of property in Cuba until the embargo is lifted. People going against this rule are violating an American law and could therefore be exposed to criminal penalties (as per the Trading with the Enemy Act). This law also applies to Cuban-Americans.

:)

[sitzmark]

Pico is owned by Killington, and it's right around the corner, anyway.

To be more specific - Pico is owned by Powdr (as is Killington) which is one of a handful of mega-sort companies. Vail Resorts is the 800lb gorilla. What’s left/reconstituted of Intra-west is under the umbrella of Alterra (Chicago Crown family money and owners of Aspen) is moving aggressively to challenge VR. Powder, Boyne, and a couple of other smaller organizations are fighting for a toe hold in a very competitive space.

The caveat with NE mountain resort property is that rental opportunity is either long term seasonal or primarily weekend only. Leaf peeping season can generate extended stays. For winter it isn’t significantly more expensive than an airline ticket to spend a week on the slopes in the West where the chance for better snow conditions has historically been better.

[djg]

If you're thinking of a condo in ski country that may have decent summer biking at the OPs price level, look at Vermont and northest areas. Very cheap right now. My buddy just rented a very nice one bedroom right at the base of Pico mountain last ski season that is on the market for 65 grand. Many more examples out there.

The OP is in Grantham, NH, already, according to his sig.

[fkelly]

I'm 72 and happily retired. Been through several "second" homes and would never consider it again. Run a spreadsheet conservatively considering all factors and you can never justify it unless you want to get into very ACTIVE property management taking up a LOT of your time. Taxes, repairs, home owner or condominium association feels, just having yard work taken care of, tenants destroying things or just ignoring small problems until they morph into big ones (e.g., mold) ... all come into play. Just the hassle of filling out tax forms for rental properties ...

250k invested now, even very conservatively in a CD at 2.5%, will return $6250 per year which will rent you a Winter place for over a month in a warm weather location and pay to ship your bike out there.

[Mr. Pink]

To be more specific - Pico is owned by Powdr (as is Killington) which is one of a handful of mega-sort companies. Vail Resorts is the 800lb gorilla. What’s left/reconstituted of Intra-west is under the umbrella of Alterra (Chicago Crown family money and owners of Aspen) is moving aggressively to challenge VR. Powder, Boyne, and a couple of other smaller organizations are fighting for a toe hold in a very competitive space.

The caveat with NE mountain resort property is that rental opportunity is either long term seasonal or primarily weekend only. Leaf peeping season can generate extended stays. For winter it isn’t significantly more expensive than an airline ticket to spend a week on the slopes in the West where the chance for better snow conditions has historically been better.


I know. Affordable airline travel is killing the NE ski industry, slowly, much like better highways and air travel killed the Catskills. You forgot the Euro skiing market, too, which is as affordable to an I95 resident as the Rockies, just a bit harder to get to. But, the OP is looking for something that just doesnt exist in his price range in any "rentable" market I can think of. I know, I'm in the same boat, a little further down the line, since I'm not working anymore, and, trust me, if I could find a 250,000 two bedroom in a prime rentable location near good biking and skiing, I'd be there. You can pretty much double that figure, to start, in any decent location in Colorado, and furgetabout Califiornia. SLC is reasonable, since, well, it's a city with an ever growing housing stock, but, I'd rather get a chronic ailment than live there.
I thought the world of vacation RE was going to be my oyster in 08 when the crash happened, but, nope, the market is much more expensive a decade out. The top ten percent, as many know, did and are doing quite well, and you see that in record numbers at ski areas out west. I'm so happy that AirB&B exists to level the playing field a bit for schmucks like me.

[Mr. Pink]

I'm 72 and happily retired. Been through several "second" homes and would never consider it again. Run a spreadsheet conservatively considering all factors and you can never justify it unless you want to get into very ACTIVE property management taking up a LOT of your time. Taxes, repairs, home owner or condominium association feels, just having yard work taken care of, tenants destroying things or just ignoring small problems until they morph into big ones (e.g., mold) ... all come into play. Just the hassle of filling out tax forms for rental properties ...

250k invested now, even very conservatively in a CD at 2.5%, will return $6250 per year which will rent you a Winter place for over a month in a warm weather location and pay to ship your bike out there.

This.

I'm starting to shop around for an apartment close to Siena in Tuscany for a month in the fall. 1200-1600 is very possible for something nice with biking out the door. Easy. Imagine the hassle of owning that.

[djg]

...

The caveat with NE mountain resort property is that rental opportunity is either long term seasonal or primarily weekend only. Leaf peeping season can generate extended stays. For winter it isn’t significantly more expensive than an airline ticket to spend a week on the slopes in the West where the chance for better snow conditions has historically been better.

Thread drift, but yeah. I grew up skiing in the Northeast -- upstate, Addies, and Vt, and went to college in NH. That's where I learned to love skiing. I live in the mid-Atlantic now but I haven't been back to New England to ski in this century. Local skiing means southern PA or maybe WV -- mostly day-trips -- and I take at least one trip out west a year -- typically to Utah. That "chance for better snow conditions has historically been better" seems a bit of an understatement when we're talking Alta vs. Killington -- I mean, yeah, it's possible to have a bad day at Alta and a great day at Killington, but . . . seriously. I can grab a morning non-stop from DCA and be on the ground in SLC by 10 am -- then it's 45 minutes to the mountain.

[joosttx]

Have you looked at The Dalles, Or. on the Columbia River. Great quiet road riding through apple orchards, and at the foot of Mt Hood.

[CNY rider]

Pico is owned by Killington, and it's right around the corner, anyway.

I’m aware of that.
And from what I’ve seen at Pico I would not be surprised at all to wake up one morning and hear they were ceasing operations there.
I would not make a 20 year bet on Pico.

[Mr. Pink]

Well, the only thing you should make a twenty year bet on is a conservative mix of stocks and bonds. The stock market has never seen a twenty year drop substained. Everything else is off the table. I mean, think back twenty years. Remember a time when real estate could never go down? I worked for a major corporation, thousands of employees, well respected, for over twenty years, and today, it technically doesn't exist anymore. You can never predict the future.

[echappist]

Well, the only thing you should make a twenty year bet on is a conservative mix of stocks and bonds. The stock market has never seen a twenty year drop substained. Everything else is off the table. I mean, think back twenty years. Remember a time when real estate could never go down? I worked for a major corporation, thousands of employees, well respected, for over twenty years, and today, it technically doesn't exist anymore. You can never predict the future.

qualifier: the U.S. stock market hasn't

as pointed elsewhere recently here, hell if one invested in the Nikkei in the mid 80's

[Tickdoc]

This.

I'm starting to shop around for an apartment close to Siena in Tuscany for a month in the fall. 1200-1600 is very possible for something nice with biking out the door. Easy. Imagine the hassle of owning that.

And you get to try a new one each time...new restaurants and local flavor.

Great thread, btw.

[Mr. Pink]

qualifier: the U.S. stock market hasn't

as pointed elsewhere recently here, hell if one invested in the Nikkei in the mid 80's



Well, I can tell you, if the US equity market sees that kind of downturn , then the last place you would want your money is the second home market. You're going to have many more problems than wondering about your next vacation.

[AngryScientist]

I havent read through the whole thread, but i'm not for the idea of buying someplace now with the idea of retiring there in many years.

so much of life is unpredictable. you may have no interest in cycling and be a cross country ski nut in 20 years, or a classic car guy, or a golfer or....

my plan is going to be to stock up on more liquid investments, wait and see.

having been through a bunch of crap lately, i think my real priorities in retirement are going to be close to family and good medical care.

[zap]

Every 6 months or so we think about purchasing a second place. But we like going to so many different places that we nix the idea.

Note valuations are high in the US and condo's get crushed during a recession.

Also best to decide where you want to retire when you reach that stage in life, not before.

[Ralph]

As you get older....and when you get old......you might think differently about where you want to live. I want warm, not cold.

I had my career in Central Florida (an area few tourists actually see), and wife and I spent many trips exploring other places in USA we might want to live in retirement. We spent weeks in the NW and especially liked the San Juan Islands.

We spent a month in Moab....in spring and again in Fall, countless months in most of the front range towns of Colorado. Then a month in Frisco and Breckenridge area. Months in Western N Carolina (own acreage there now), and New England.....especially Martha's Vineyard, Booth Bay, and Around Acadia National park. A month in Cour De Alene, even some time around Spokane.

And we did this in all the seasons.

We stayed places long enough to realize that visiting some place and playing, not the same as living there. Lots of other things to consider. Medical care being one. Here....no specialty is more than a 20 minute drive away.

So we stayed in our home in Florida. Sure....4-5 months of year it's hot, and sometimes humid. But it doesn't keep me off the bike. Frankly....I didn't even notice the 80-85 degree temps on my 35 mile ride this AM. Done by 10:30. In pool by 11. And no place I have ever been has more cycling than here....of all types, year around.

In retirement, and as I age, (78 now), there is no way I would trade Florida's (or Texas, or Arizona, or New Mexico, etc) heat for any place with a long winter. I want to be outside and active....and not breaking bones on a ski slope.

And many of these warmer clime areas have low real estate prices. $300,000 will buy you a nice home in a nice neighborhood close to all the trails and cycling hubs around here. Imagine same in other warm places. I would add S California....but it's expensive.

And BTW...we still like visiting most of those places for a week or so at a time, just don't want to live there.

[19wisconsin64]

One of the best places to live in America...Madison, WI. You mentioned retirement, so I'm assuming you want good medical and lots of local interesting things to do. You mentioned "rent out", so that's real estate investing, which is location. You mentioned cycling, they have that too.

Spend a week there in the fall or summer or winter or whenever. It's great, but I'm totally biased having lived there! It's on my short-list of places to retire to. Great thread!

[Ken Robb]

As you get older....and when you get old......you might think differently about where you want to live. I want warm, not cold.

I had my career in Central Florida (an area few tourists actually see), and wife and I spent many trips exploring other places in USA we might want to live in retirement. We spent weeks in the NW and especially liked the San Juan Islands.

We spent a month in Moab....in spring and again in Fall, countless months in most of the front range towns of Colorado. Then a month in Frisco and Breckenridge area. Months in Western N Carolina (own acreage there now), and New England.....especially Martha's Vineyard, Booth Bay, and Around Acadia National park. A month in Cour De Alene, even some time around Spokane.

And we did this in all the seasons.

We stayed places long enough to realize that visiting some place and playing, not the same as living there. Lots of other things to consider. Medical care being one. Here....no specialty is more than a 20 minute drive away.

So we stayed in our home in Florida. Sure....4-5 months of year it's hot, and sometimes humid. But it doesn't keep me off the bike. Frankly....I didn't even notice the 80-85 degree temps on my 35 mile ride this AM. Done by 10:30. In pool by 11. And no place I have ever been has more cycling than here....of all types, year around.

In retirement, and as I age, (78 now), there is no way I would trade Florida's (or Texas, or Arizona, or New Mexico, etc) heat for any place with a long winter. I want to be outside and active....and not breaking bones on a ski slope.

And many of these warmer clime areas have low real estate prices. $300,000 will buy you a nice home in a nice neighborhood close to all the trails and cycling hubs around here. Imagine same in other warm places. I would add S California....but it's expensive.

And BTW...we still like visiting most of those places for a week or so at a time, just don't want to live there.

SoCal isn't as expensive if a person wants to live inland rather than near the coast. The dry Summer heat there is easier for many folks than the heat plus humidity in the Southeast. People who live in Palm Springs, Palm Desert, etc. live like Ralph does in the Summer. They get up early, play tennis, golf, etc. then hit the pool and/or inside where it's air-conditioned. By late afternoon it's probably quite tolerable on the patio and evenings are lovely-----if you can stay awake. Of course the tax deal for retirees is better in Florida.

[Ralph]

Yes....I always get a kick out of tourists who go to Disneyland at Orlando in summer.....and complain about how hot and humid it is up in the day....and how they would never live around here.....and I'm thinking...."you fool....what are you doing out in this heat and humidity". Us locals would never do that.

And Ken brings up some good points. Taxes are a big consideration. No state income taxes in Florida, WA, Texas, Tenn, Wy, NH (I think), and one other I believe. Saves me about 6% of my taxable income. And according to my retired baby brother (a retired Fed Gov worker), some state don't tax Gov pensions.

Don't know about other states....but around here a decent house/condo in a decent area (but not great) goes for about $160 per ft. Pool and 3 car garage adds. RE taxes w/b about $3500/year on 2000 sq ft home, (some tax savings for long term residents owner occupied), and home owners insurance probably in the $2500/year range. We have hurricanes and ground collapse risks....other states have different risks.

All things you have to consider.

[Ken Robb]

Yes....I always get a kick out of tourists who go to Disneyland at Orlando in summer.....and complain about how hot and humid it is up in the day....and how they would never live around here.....and I'm thinking...."you fool....what are you doing out in this heat and humidity". Us locals would never do that.

And Ken brings up some good points. Taxes are a big consideration. No state income taxes in Florida, WA, Texas, Tenn, Wy, NH (I think), and one other I believe. Saves me about 6% of my taxable income. And according to my retired baby brother (a retired Fed Gov worker), some state don't tax Gov pensions.

Don't know about other states....but around here a decent house/condo in a decent area (but not great) goes for about $160 per ft. Pool and 3 car garage adds. RE taxes w/b about $3500/year on 2000 sq ft home, (some tax savings for long term residents owner occupied), and home owners insurance probably in the $2500/year range. We have hurricanes and ground collapse risks....other states have different risks.

All things you have to consider.

In California property taxes will amount to about 1.1% of the sale price of a piece of property. The tax amount can not increase by more than 2% from year to year. In recessions they have gone down. This provides security against owners being taxed out of their homes and is especially comforting to retirees and others on fixed incomes. OTOH my state taxes some of my income at 11%. OUCH!

[tomato coupe]

One of the best places to live in America...Madison, WI. You mentioned retirement, so I'm assuming you want good medical and lots of local interesting things to do. You mentioned "rent out", so that's real estate investing, which is location. You mentioned cycling, they have that too.

Spend a week there in the fall or summer or winter or whenever. It's great, but I'm totally biased having lived there! It's on my short-list of places to retire to. Great thread!

The OP is looking for "close to decent year-round cycling." As nice as Madison is, it doesn't come close to meeting that requirement.

[Matt92037]

Solid place. Kite boarding, windsurfing, snowboarding and good riding. And close to Bend!

Have you looked at The Dalles, Or. on the Columbia River. Great quiet road riding through apple orchards, and at the foot of Mt Hood.

[Matt92037]

I live in LJ too, if not for Prop 13 I couldn’t swing it.

In California property taxes will amount to about 1.1% of the sale price of a piece of property. The tax amount can not increase by more than 2% from year to year. In recessions they have gone down. This provides security against owners being taxed out of their homes and is especially comforting to retirees and others on fixed incomes. OTOH my state taxes some of my income at 11%. OUCH!

[MattTuck]

The OP is looking for "close to decent year-round cycling." As nice as Madison is, it doesn't come close to meeting that requirement.

True, but I welcome any suggestions that someone considers an interesting cycling/living destination.

I'd consider the area I live in to be a dream for cyclists during the warmer months, but there simply aren't enough warmer months :)

[froze]

There are a lot of places in the US that fit that bill.

Montana, Colorado, Rhode Island all get pretty cold in the winter; Florida gets pretty darn humid in the summer, plus you have a bunch of retirees running cyclists over...yes, they have the highest bicycle fatalities in the nation.

Ashville N Carolina; 2 bed 2 bath condos start at 150K, the lower the price you get in the easier it is to make money renting it out. The temps are fairly moderate, the lowest temps you'll see is in Dec and Jan with the lows being around 30 then it steadily goes up to a high in July of 85; rain averages about 3 inches a month yearly.

Las Cruces N Mexico: 2 x 2 condos start at 93K. Temps on the low side Dec and Jan hits 30 degrees, but the high in July and Aug can be 95 but this is a dry heat not a humid heat and there is a difference in comfort when cycling, while it's unbearable at 85 plus when it's humid but your still managing it at 85 to 90 when it's dry heat, and the rain is only averaging about an inch year round.

Fort Worth, Texas: 2 x 2 condos start at 70K. Temps on the low side between Dec and jan can hit 35, the highest in Aug is 97, rainfall is very low, never breaking over a 1/2 inch at any given time.


You'll have to check the crime levels in areas where you're thinking of living because sometimes lower end prices on condos could mean higher crime in those neighborhoods. Also you need to check how good is the cycling in that area. Watch the rainfall because a lot of states average over 2 inches of rain a month during the dry season and as much as 5 during the wet season and rain will put a damper on riding. Obviously check your areas tax rates, some places like California are stupid high, even though property tax may only be 1 1/2 percent of the price purchased you have gasoline taxes that will push your gas to around $4.50 currently per gallon, also this state is not doing well financially something will have to give and that usually means even higher taxes, and Calif has some of the highest taxes in the US, plus it's very difficult to find condos in Calif for your price range.

[joosttx]

Solid place. Kite boarding, windsurfing, snowboarding and good riding. And close to Bend!

the more I think about it, The Dalles is the place to be.

Averages 5 inches of snow per with highs in the summer in the upper 80's. Along to Columbia river. And the COL is cheap.

[oliver1850]

My cousin and her husband bought one at Copper Mountain (guessing) about the time of the real estate crash. They lived in KC at the time, used it a few weekends themselves in ski season and rented it the rest of the year. Some years later they bought a 2nd. They have retired in CO, but I'm not sure if they live in either of the condos. May not be a paying place now in the short term - I don't know anything about the market.

[Ralph]

A few years ago while on a trip to Western N Carolina....at breakfast one morning got to talking to a guy who owned a trucking business.....and he and his wife made deliveries all over the USA.....in all different times of the year...and after we had talked a bit....I asked him where (in his opinion) had the best climate in all USA for year around living.

He answered "somewhere not much N or S of I 40.....about anywhere across the USA." "Lots of good places to live." Never forgot meeting that guy.

[Ozz]

the more I think about it, The Dalles is the place to be.

Averages 5 inches of snow per with highs in the summer in the upper 80's. Along to Columbia river. And the COL is cheap.

It is beautiful, but I would rather ride in the rain than the wind! ;)

[buddybikes]

Final answer, invest your money, buy a motor home when you are ready and search for riding paradise.

[zap]

edit

People who live in Palm Springs, Palm Desert, etc. live like Ralph does in the Summer.

I spent a week in Palm Springs on business.

I quickly learned that while nice to visit, living in a place surrounded by desert was not my thing. I did a lot of cycling around Palm Springs that week and the wind was pretty strong.....came back from rides covered in sand.

[joosttx]

It is beautiful, but I would rather ride in the rain than the wind! ;)

I had forgotten about the wind. :/

[biker72]

I haven't read all the posts but has anyone mentioned Arkansas??? A couple of co-workers have retired to Fayetteville because of the great mt. biking. A few weeks ago I took a trip to Bentonville for some nice road biking.

The Walton Family Foundation has donated $15 million for bike paths in the Bentonville area. Looks like year round cycling is possible.

For me, I'm happy where I am. My school/property taxes are capped because I'm over 65. Internest, ophthalmologist...etc are all close. Family is all here. I can ride all year.

[tctyres]

In California property taxes will amount to about 1.1% of the sale price of a piece of property. The tax amount can not increase by more than 2% from year to year. In recessions they have gone down. This provides security against owners being taxed out of their homes and is especially comforting to retirees and others on fixed incomes. OTOH my state taxes some of my income at 11%. OUCH!

Ken,
Is there any place in the coastal corridor Santa Barbara to San Diego corridor that is preferable in terms of low cost of living, good lifestyle? My partner lives in LA, and it seems like the market is just high everywhere.

[rzthomas]

I haven't read all the posts but has anyone mentioned Arkansas??? A couple of co-workers have retired to Fayetteville because of the great mt. biking. A few weeks ago I took a trip to Bentonville for some nice road biking.

The Walton Family Foundation has donated $15 million for bike paths in the Bentonville area. Looks like year round cycling is possible.

For me, I'm happy where I am. My school/property taxes are capped because I'm over 65. Internest, ophthalmologist...etc are all close. Family is all here. I can ride all year.

I've traveled to Fayetteville for work and that town is incredibly liveable. Lots of amenities thanks to UA and Walmart money.

[froze]

edit



I spent a week in Palm Springs on business.

I quickly learned that while nice to visit, living in a place surrounded by desert was not my thing. I did a lot of cycling around Palm Springs that week and the wind was pretty strong.....came back from rides covered in sand.

I use to ride in that area many times, and when it's hot it's miserable, which is why I only rode there in the winter or late fall and early spring. Tramway road that goes to the tram is a bit of a strain going up but a blast to ride down where I reached 58 mph according to my computer, this was in the days before the Aero thing came around.

If the winds started to blow then the sand thing started to blow as well and you better clean your chain when you got home. This is true by the way of all those Mojave desert areas as well. Even with the sand I still got long life on my chains but I was cleaning them a lot. I always carried a bandana with me too because otherwise you would be inhaling sand which isn't good for you; I chose the bandana over a hospital type of mask because the mask restricted air more, and a bandana took care of the sand.

[paredown]

I've traveled to Fayetteville for work and that town is incredibly liveable. Lots of amenities thanks to UA and Walmart money.
We thought we would be retiring there and had a house ready to go, then stayed in New York and had to sell the house--kind of an object lesson for the OP--don't buy until you know you are going to move to a place!

It is a decent place, and the University of Arkansas is there--which means it is on the map for shows and such (the Waltons kicked in money for a performing space), and the Uni is a good one.

Bit of a dearth of high-end grocery shopping (no Whole Foods etc at least when we were there; one nice independent up my Bentonville) and a pretty limited selection of good restaurants. You are only an hour and half from Tulsa and two-ish to Kansas City if you need more shopping choices.

There are lots of lakes and golf courses--the area around Bentonville/west of Bentonville is basically the lake region/summer vacation spot for those farther west, and some of those lakes are pretty amazing.

NWA is a decent regional airport (more Walmart money there) with good connections to Chicago, DFW and direct flights to La Guardia (and I believe Newark as well)

It is on the edge of tornado alley though--so you do get some spectacular summer storms, and it does get Gulf weather with humidity in the summer. Spring and fall are pretty nice, though and winters are not that cold.

[glepore]

My hometown of Charlottesville (near Wintergreen noted above) is pricey but not on level of California, DC, NYC. People here rent their homes out all the time; I hear stuff like “staying with my brother this weekend while I rent my house out”. Around UVA graduation or other events, not uncommon to rent places out for $500/night.

Average real estate price in town is $200/sf.

Major academic medical center in town. Weather is pretty good, lots of arts, entertainment, restaurants, breweries, vineyards.

Ditto this. I actually bought here and rented a couple years before moving down. But there's already enough people moving in...

[Ken Robb]

Ken,
Is there any place in the coastal corridor Santa Barbara to San Diego corridor that is preferable in terms of low cost of living, good lifestyle? My partner lives in LA, and it seems like the market is just high everywhere.
I think Ventura and Carpentaria are less than LA and Santa Barbara. Farther north is Cambria which is a delightful small town on the coast and just over the hill from Paso Robles and I know homes cost less there.

I was recently surprised to find that my cousin and an old HS pal have moved to a new development in Nipomo which is just north of Santa Maria on route 101. It looks like a real bargain with Golf, Tennis, cycling.

[54ny77]

Shhhhhhh.....don't tell people about the Central coast. It's full.


I think Ventura and Carpentaria are less than LA and Santa Barbara. Farther north is Cambria which is a delightful small town on the coast and just over the hill from Paso Robles and I know homes cost less there.

I was recently surprised to find that my cousin and an old HS pal have moved to a new development in Nipomo which is just north of Santa Maria on route 101. It looks like a real bargain with Golf, Tennis, cycling.

[Louis]

Shhhhhhh.....don't tell people about the Central coast. It's full.

Re: CA central coast

I figured I’d bump this to throw out something I’ve been thinking about lately related to the “best places to retire” issue. (I’m not too far from retirement, say 3-4 years max, so this is becoming more and more interesting.)

Feel free to comment as you see fit.

St Louis is affordable, and the riding out where I live is quite good, but the bottom line is that the weather stinks in a number of ways. Cold in the winter, hot and humid in the summer, and lots of storms and other nasty stuff in the spring. So I’ve always thought that I wanted to move to someplace with much better year-round weather for riding.

However lately, for a variety of reasons, I’ve been doing a lot more rowing (C2 erg) than cycling, which has lead me to conclude that maybe I don’t really need someplace where the weather is perfect 12 months a year. Since I prefer things a bit cooler rather than a bit warmer, I’m now thinking that having a few months a year that are a bit too cool for prefect cycling might not be that bad, since I can always supplement the cycling with indoor rowing. That way I don’t have to find the combination of great weather and affordable living. As much as I like the weather in, say, Santa Barbara CA, I’d rather not have to pay $750k for a run-down shack on 0.1 acres.

Bottom line, I’m now thinking that if I’m flexible and don’t really need to ride the bike 4-5 days a week, every week, in Jan and Feb, that will give me a lot more options.

[54ny77]

There' a word for people who do what you're thinking: snowbird.

:D

There's a reason for why so many people do it, and you touched on a lot of it.

Re: CA central coast

I figured I’d bump this to throw out something I’ve been thinking about lately related to the “best places to retire” issue. (I’m not too far from retirement, say 3-4 years max, so this is becoming more and more interesting.)

Feel free to comment as you see fit.

St Louis is affordable, and the riding out where I live is quite good, but the bottom line is that the weather stinks in a number of ways. Cold in the winter, hot and humid in the summer, and lots of storms and other nasty stuff in the spring. So I’ve always thought that I wanted to move to someplace with much better year-round weather for riding.

However lately, for a variety of reasons, I’ve been doing a lot more rowing (C2 erg) than cycling, which has lead me to conclude that maybe I don’t really need someplace where the weather is perfect 12 months a year. Since I prefer things a bit cooler rather than a bit warmer, I’m now thinking that having a few months a year that are a bit too cool for prefect cycling might not be that bad, since I can always supplement the cycling with indoor rowing. That way I don’t have to find the combination of great weather and affordable living. As much as I like the weather in, say, Santa Barbara CA, I’d rather not have to pay $750k for a run-down shack on 0.1 acres.

Bottom line, I’m now thinking that if I’m flexible and don’t really need to ride the bike 4-5 days a week, every week, in Jan and Feb, that will give me a lot more options.

[MattTuck]

A [rational] voice cries out in the wilderness!

3 months indoors/doing wintery stuff seems reasonable. For several years when I was first living up here, it seemed like I was able to get out deep into December and we'd hit some 70 degree days in March. More recently, it seems like the last decent riding weather is in mid-November and first good riding weather is in mid-April. To me, that is too long.

That could just be usual fluctuations in weather, for sure. Or the fact that maybe the warm days were ones when I had to be working and couldn't take advantage, but it definitely feels like it stays cooler longer.



Re: CA central coast

I figured I’d bump this to throw out something I’ve been thinking about lately related to the “best places to retire” issue. (I’m not too far from retirement, say 3-4 years max, so this is becoming more and more interesting.)

Feel free to comment as you see fit.

St Louis is affordable, and the riding out where I live is quite good, but the bottom line is that the weather stinks in a number of ways. Cold in the winter, hot and humid in the summer, and lots of storms and other nasty stuff in the spring. So I’ve always thought that I wanted to move to someplace with much better year-round weather for riding.

However lately, for a variety of reasons, I’ve been doing a lot more rowing (C2 erg) than cycling, which has lead me to conclude that maybe I don’t really need someplace where the weather is perfect 12 months a year. Since I prefer things a bit cooler rather than a bit warmer, I’m now thinking that having a few months a year that are a bit too cool for prefect cycling might not be that bad, since I can always supplement the cycling with indoor rowing. That way I don’t have to find the combination of great weather and affordable living. As much as I like the weather in, say, Santa Barbara CA, I’d rather not have to pay $750k for a run-down shack on 0.1 acres.

Bottom line, I’m now thinking that if I’m flexible and don’t really need to ride the bike 4-5 days a week, every week, in Jan and Feb, that will give me a lot more options.

[Ken Robb]

Last year Leslie and I had reserved a nice "dog-friendly" hotel in Paso Robles for a few days. We planned to have some wine, food and conversation with our pal Cindy Steinbeck at her family winery and tour some others. It was 105F in Paso so we cancelled those plans and drove over the hill to Cambria where it was 68F. We stayed in a fun dog-enthusiastic(beyond friendly) motel on Moonstone Beach Drive. The real "board" walk above the beaches is right across the street and the town has several really good restaurants. There is a nice friendly vibe exhibited by the locals we met on the street, in coffee shops and restaurants. The only obvious drawback for me is the main local "supermarket" is just so-so. OTOH residents can easily pop over the hill to Paso Robles where there are plenty of good shopping options.

[C40_guy]

I havent read through the whole thread, but i'm not for the idea of buying someplace now with the idea of retiring there in many years.

so much of life is unpredictable. you may have no interest in cycling and be a cross country ski nut in 20 years, or a classic car guy, or a golfer or....

my plan is going to be to stock up on more liquid investments, wait and see.

having been through a bunch of crap lately, i think my real priorities in retirement are going to be close to family and good medical care.

I'd second this. Three years ago we sold our house in suburban Boston and moved to a family neighborhood on Cape Cod. Kids all around us, school bus every morning, great riding, running, kayaking, etc.

I'm fortunate to be able to work from home, and expect to be working for another 8-10 years.

Still near family.

Still near good food.

Still near world class medical care.

I expect at some point we might move back towards Boston, if only for access to the world class medical care. No known issues, but I've seen the back water medical care offered to relatives in south Florida...

Maybe our house will become a part time house...for now it's full time.

I recently put together a spreadsheet to evaluate buying a rental locally. Seems that unless a property is bought cheap and lots of sweat equity is applied, the numbers just don't work. Better, as others have said, to put money into investments that take less hands on management/maintenance.

You won't know what your interests will be in 10 years. If you asked me 10 years ago if I would be running half marathons, I would have laughed in your face. Today, I'm spending more time running on local trails than riding on or off road. Who knows in another 10 years!

(Oh, and the N+1 for running shoes is a lot easier to manage!)

[fkelly]

It was 105F in Paso so we cancelled those plans and drove over the hill to Cambria where it was 68F

Yeah. I use Weather dot com, monthly reports to scope out any place I'm considering for snowbirding. Been doing the southern CA. coastal areas for last 10 years. Did a few years in Laguna Beach, but the rental market is crazy there. Have had a couple of security deposits returned because the owners wanted longer term rentals (and I was renting for 6 weeks). La Jolla turned out the same way. It's hard to even find a rental in these tourist meccas. San Clemente is a bit more residential (though very vacation-y). Found a nice place there last year and have reserved it (fingers crossed) for next year. You can also take bike paths north and south avoiding much traffic on the PCH. There are other "residential" places (Oceanside, Encinitas) that might be more reasonable (but not cheap).

Once you go more than 20 miles inland you are looking at 90's and 100's from June through September.

For purchase purposes I'd have to add $1 million to the cost of my comparable house in Upstate NY, anywhere along the Socal Coast and probably $2 million in the Laguna/La Jolla type areas. That's nuts from an economic point of view.

[steveoz]

As you get older....and when you get old......you might think differently about where you want to live. I want warm, not cold.

I had my career in Central Florida (an area few tourists actually see), and wife and I spent many trips exploring other places in USA we might want to live in retirement. We spent weeks in the NW and especially liked the San Juan Islands.

We spent a month in Moab....in spring and again in Fall, countless months in most of the front range towns of Colorado. Then a month in Frisco and Breckenridge area. Months in Western N Carolina (own acreage there now), and New England.....especially Martha's Vineyard, Booth Bay, and Around Acadia National park. A month in Cour De Alene, even some time around Spokane.

And we did this in all the seasons.

We stayed places long enough to realize that visiting some place and playing, not the same as living there. Lots of other things to consider. Medical care being one. Here....no specialty is more than a 20 minute drive away.

So we stayed in our home in Florida. Sure....4-5 months of year it's hot, and sometimes humid. But it doesn't keep me off the bike. Frankly....I didn't even notice the 80-85 degree temps on my 35 mile ride this AM. Done by 10:30. In pool by 11. And no place I have ever been has more cycling than here....of all types, year around.

In retirement, and as I age, (78 now), there is no way I would trade Florida's (or Texas, or Arizona, or New Mexico, etc) heat for any place with a long winter. I want to be outside and active....and not breaking bones on a ski slope.

And many of these warmer clime areas have low real estate prices. $300,000 will buy you a nice home in a nice neighborhood close to all the trails and cycling hubs around here. Imagine same in other warm places. I would add S California....but it's expensive.

And BTW...we still like visiting most of those places for a week or so at a time, just don't want to live there.

If you don't mind me asking- what area in Central Fl are you in? I'm kinda in the OP's position - except I'm in S Fla and want to stay in state (but not down here...)- was considering Inverness area - there's a 40 + mile "rails to trails" path in that area, low crime, small town feel....lots of nature and cheap...

[Ralph]

If you don't mind me asking- what area in Central Fl are you in? I'm kinda in the OP's position - except I'm in S Fla and want to stay in state (but not down here...)- was considering Inverness area - there's a 40 + mile "rails to trails" path in that area, low crime, small town feel....lots of nature and cheap...

https://www.visitflorida.com/en-us/cities/winter-garden.html


Check out Winter Garden....Just W of Orlando. Very active cycling scene. West Orange Trail runs down main street and gets serious cyclists out of town to some great hilly cycling areas. Winter Garden Wheel Works on main street....rents nice bikes, has maps various routes, etc. Or...take trail over to Clermont area,,,,ride around lakes, etc. Very nice area for an over night visit. Race teams train here in cooler months.

I live about 15 miles NE of Orlando. Lake Mary area. Extremely active cycling scene around here...year around...all ages. I live very near the Seminole Wekiva Trail. Gets me out of hi traffic areas.

Inverness is a very nice small town near Florida Gulf coast. Wife and I love to visit there. Great overhead view of Withlacoochee Trail just outside of down town on the Visit Fl Inverness trailer. Has a very small town lazy feel to me. Much slower pace than where I live now. The 46 mile Withlacoochee State Trail can get you out in country fast.....or just ride the trail....not much traffic for miles and miles. Lots of trikes and recumbents used on that trail. Trike shop on trail at Floral City...a few miles up the trail from Inverness, and there is a nice bike shop on the trail in down town Inverness (David's World). It's probably safe to say lots of older users. There is a decent motel right on the trail near the nice down town.....Central Motel. OK to stay there for a visit. They accommodate cyclists. Believe real estate lots cheaper than where I live. Great place for retirement living. Not far from Gulf Coast....boating and fishing....at Crystal River. Did I say "very inexpensive living there". Check out trail map. Miles and miles of mostly no side roads, or heavy use. No mountains to climb, or desert humidity.....but otherwise hard to beat these places, especially for 365 day outdoor activity.

https://www.visitflorida.com/en-us/cities/inverness.html
https://www.floridastateparks.org/parks-and-trails/withlacoochee-state-trail

[chuckroast]

I'll echo what Ralph says about Inverness, it's a lovely small town and fairly close to the gulf via Crystal River and Homassasa Springs. Be aware though, it's not a "beachy" coast, if that's your thing.

We are about 45 minutes south in Spring Hill, Hernando County. It's closer to the gulf and closer to the Tampa metro area (TPA is 45 minutes from my driveway). The riding here is also good. For me, it's mostly on the Suncoast Trail, 46 miles that runs from Citrus County down to Hillsborough Co (Tampa).

There is a new connector, the Good Neighbor Trail, that runs from Brooksville (next town over from us) to the Withlacoochee. Eventually, the Good Neighbor will extend west to connect with the Suncoast.

[joosttx]

https://www.trulia.com/p/ca/inverness/1208-pierce-point-rd-inverness-ca-94937--2084085555

Rarest of the rare.

[Louis]

https://www.trulia.com/p/ca/inverness/1208-pierce-point-rd-inverness-ca-94937--2084085555

Rarest of the rare.

Somehow I don't think anyone who can afford that is going to be staying up nights working on their retirement investments - then can afford to pay someone to do the work for them.

[mtechnica]

Eastern Europe has potential. In the US you can do a lot worse than Spokane/CDA as long as you can handle having a real winter. CA is not ideal IMHO I wouldn't move here by choice, although compared to other places in the U.S. it's paradise sadly. Anywhere in the Midwest/south is a nonstarter IMO for many reasons mainly politically if not geographically and weather wise.

[Louis]

In the US you can do a lot worse than Spokane/CDA as long as you can handle having a real winter.

Dave Thompson used to live in Spokane. He may still go back in the summer, but in the winter he's busy sipping tequila and smoking Cuban cigars on a Mexican beach...

Google tells me that Spokane averages 44 inches of snow per year. That's definitely a real winter.

[fiamme red]

I have a couple of friends who moved to Girona. Their "penthouse" apt is $500/month. Residency was incredibly easy for them to establish.

I think they're in cycling heaven.

Spain is about 30% less expensive than the rest of Europe and just as beautiful. If you wanted to drop the cost even more, Portugal is a serious suggestion.

AND if you can work out citizenship, hello healthcare..."An influx of bike enthusiasts is driving the development of rental properties in Girona, which saw property sales prices rise 15% year-to-year": https://www.wsj.com/articles/cyclists-are-shifting-this-spanish-citys-real-estate-market-into-high-gear-11579104146.

[Drmojo]

Sonoma, CA.
Eureka might be better
Rainy but glorious
Lost Coast
Avenue of Giants
etc etc etc

[torquer]

Haven't read the entire thread, but how about Barcelona? (Just an hour down the road from Girona.) My pilates instructor just completed a condo purchase as an investment. Unit needed a little work, and transaction had a few hiccups (mainly due to seller, so that could happen anywhere) but prices are down because of the political situation. Still, Spain isn't Lebanon or (former) Yugoslavia, so that risk isn't huge.
Portugal would also be on my list, unless Brexit dries up the stream of vacationers from that source.

[MattTuck]

Stories like this aren't helping either...

2 gorgeous countries with ‘high quality’ health care — where you can live on less than $2,500 a month (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/2-gorgeous-countries-with-high-quality-health-care-where-you-can-live-on-less-than-2500-a-month-2020-01-14?mod=personal-finance)


Spain: Spain ranks 19th on the Lancet’s list for best health care and is one of the top countries according to the World Health Organization, while the Guardian notes that it has a high number of doctors per resident. The Guardian also adds that health care here tends to be best in the bigger cities, which of course also have higher costs of living, but notes that many people travel for care. And health-care company Aetna notes that Spain has “excellent” health care.

Spain is less expensive to live in, in general, than the U.S.

MarketWatch talked with a couple who retired in Denia, Spain, on about $2,000 a month and another couple who retired to Granada on $40,000 a year — and love the lifestyle: “Granada has a way of slowing you down [so that] you’re more present in the moment,” Jim Wasserman told MarketWatch. “Here we walk everywhere, we’re in the moment — the lifestyle means we sit outside, we see people.”

[metalheart]

I have a friend who just bought a new construction house/villa place in Greece for a relatively modest amount, about 300k. Based on her experience, she can rent it with no problem until ready to move there or just keep it as an income stream. Don't know about Greek health care

[Ken Robb]

Dave Thompson used to live in Spokane. He may still go back in the summer, but in the winter he's busy sipping tequila and smoking Cuban cigars on a Mexican beach...

Google tells me that Spokane averages 44 inches of snow per year. That's definitely a real winter.

Dave sold the Baja place and still lives in Spokane. They recently stayed in a nice hotel on a visit to Los Barriles where they used to own a place.

[polar8]

Nice, France. Great food, good weather, lots of great riding options.

[gomango]

Des Monte, Costa Rica= winter

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Desmonte,+Alajuela+Province,+San+Mateo,+Costa+Rica/@9.9668464,-84.7302644,9.92z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x8fa04e6f02d2b857:0xebc95c0e4731c ca9!8m2!3d9.9596128!4d-84.47239

Ely, Minnesota= summer

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ely,+MN+55731/@47.9045961,-91.8904539,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x52a5b00711befad9:0x956bc e3d3522817e!8m2!3d47.9032372!4d-91.8670873

Bayern base camp to visit family.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Chiemsee/@47.8804387,12.3007426,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x47766d7e4e3af6cb:0x88c0b 379f2ea7eda!8m2!3d47.8709042!4d12.4537375

All set and ready to go.

[572cv]

Nice, France. Great food, good weather, lots of great riding options.

There are lots and lots of great options in Southern France. Nice is terrific for cycling for sure. However, whenever we travel, we check out the real estate prices, and around Nice was not inexpensive. Our trips - particularly to France- have generally been for a couple of weeks of cycling in one basic location, so we’ve gotten to know a few areas. I’d recommend the Minervois/St Chinian area as sort of what Provence used to be like. The area around Mauvezin, near Bagneres de Biggore in the Pyrenees gives you great access to the climbs there and is beautiful. Anything you could find near Annecy, or the Vercors would be a huge win. And the area where we actually found a place that meets Matt’s criteria, the southern Corrèze, near Turenne, is terrific old rural France. France is great if you live on the east coast. Easy to get to, often with direct flights. Great food, great respect for riders, a lot of government investment in infrastructure, and in an area like ours, excellent value in houses. We’re already at the point where “ its a place to go when we’re older”..... we are older. I loved riding around Girona and Catalonia, but France is a bit closer to wonderful for me.

[oldpotatoe]

What little corner of the country (or world) would you look at to buy a unit that satisfies the following?

1. Fairly cheap (ie. not in one of the hot real estate markets). Let's say a 2 bed/2 bath unit for under $250K.

2. Close to decent year round cycling with enough terrain/routes to keep a retired person busy. Mountain biking nearby is a plus, but not a requirement. But, access to good roads with minimal cars would be key.

3. Convenient enough to get to for a week or 2 week vacation annually.

4. Enough local attractions that you could use AirBNB (or similar) to rent it out and cover most of the expenses during the time you're not there.

Sicily around Palermo or Catania...:) Or around Bari on the Adriatic..

[Ralph]

The older I get, the more I appreciate modern medical facilities. Living here in Florida, I have seen more than one retired couple come back to USA for treatment of a medical condition, after retiring in some exotic location. A good friend, who lives about 15 minutes from a hospital here, survived a heart attack that would have killed him many places in the world. And how about strokes...and the importance of getting treatment fast? And it's not always problems of the man, many times it's surgeries that are routine here for wife, not so routine elsewhere. And issues about your medical insurance....where it will cover you, etc. But dream away....it's fun.

[morrisericd]

Very interesting options in France! My wife and I are not quite retirement age, but one can always dream! Going to spend some time looking up "retiring in France" today. Or even better - "retiring early in France and opening your own coffee shop / business"! It's -1 today in Vermont.

[572cv]

Very interesting options in France! My wife and I are not quite retirement age, but one can always dream! Going to spend some time looking up "retiring in France" today. Or even better - "retiring early in France and opening your own coffee shop / business"! It's -1 today in Vermont.

It's getting up to about 50 F in the Dordogne region and will be comfortably into the 60-70 range in the day by the beginning of Mud Season :) Since you're not quite retirement age, now is the time to explore ! In Vermont, its good to know that from April to October you can fly direct from Montreal on Air Transat to Nice, Marseilles, Lyon, Toulouse, Bordeaux...to name a few destinations. Your bike costs $30 CAD. Then you can check out the cycling, the community, the food, have a blast. If you have any thoughts about doing this, send me a PM, and I can share the little write up we did about what we have learned traveling in France with our bikes. I'm looking forward to April.... x marks the spot. Its a good little climb up to the chateau on top of the village.

[MerckxMad]

I currently live on Long Island, and am within a few long years of ending my legal career. I've been all over this country, and am thinking of southern New England; coastal CT or RI for my retirement. My family has always spent summers in NE and my daughter attends college in Newport. I'm less tolerant of harsh winters, but even lesser tolerant of heat and humidity. I don't think I can hibernate in A/C for 12+ hours a day for 3-4 months when it looks nice outside my window. I've looked at some southern cities and college towns in the boonies, and they all have their pluses (lower cost of living and more space), but I'm drawn to the ocean, and find riding near the coast a necessity. RI puts me within driving distance of family in NY and Boston along with the healthcare facilities that I hope I'll never need. So, that's my plan unless someone in Mill Valley, CA wants to gift me a home and an annuity to pay taxes.

[Ken Robb]

I currently live on Long Island, and am within a few long years of ending my legal career. I've been all over this country, and am thinking of southern New England; coastal CT or RI for my retirement. My family has always spent summers in NE and my daughter attends college in Newport. I'm less tolerant of harsh winters, but even lesser tolerant of heat and humidity. I don't think I can hibernate in A/C for 12+ hours a day for 3-4 months when it looks nice outside my window. I've looked at some southern cities and college towns in the boonies, and they all have their pluses (lower cost of living and more space), but I'm drawn to the ocean, and find riding near the coast a necessity. RI puts me within driving distance of family in NY and Boston along with the healthcare facilities that I hope I'll never need. So, that's my plan unless someone in Mill Valley, CA wants to gift me a home and an annuity to pay taxes.

The weather in coastal San Diego County is hard to beat but the area has gotten a lot more crowded since I arrived in 1969. DUH! Real estate is expensive but property taxes are limited to about 1.2% of the purchase price with up to annual increases of 2% of the tax. During a couple of downturns in property values my taxes were reduced without me doing anything.Sometimes for fun I look at property listings in other areas and am shocked to see property taxes 2-3 times what they would be in San Diego and steeply rising rates annually.

If I were not firmly entrenched here I would consider living on The Central Coast around Morro Bay, San Luis Obispo, and Cambria. The weather is lovely and prices for real estate lower.

[Mikej]

Have you considered a place in Boca Del Vista? I mean if you can get in...

[echappist]

Does this presupposes that one could easily obtain an EU passport?

If not, are the suggestion relying upon something similar to a EB-5 visa?

Otherwise I can't imagine why a country would let someone near retirement immigrate and use its resources?

[572cv]

Does this presupposes that one could easily obtain an EU passport?

If not, are the suggestion relying upon something similar to a EB-5 visa?

Otherwise I can't imagine why a country would let someone near retirement immigrate and use its resources?

I don’t expect that one could easily obtain a passport, nor am I convinced that would be the best approach, at least in France. The issue of being a resident alien is complex and requires different visas depending on duration. In any case, there it is expected that the applicant demonstrate that resources exist to support living there, though I understand that once established, one can participate in things like the medical system. But yes, they certainly aren’t looking for sponges.