Who builds the 2nd best Ti frames...?

[catulle]

Serotta being the best, who builds the second best Ti frames, ATYO... Thank you.

[cydewaze]

Indy Fab?

[csm]

serotta? the concors?
the legend being number one of course.

[SPINDAWG]

If I didn't love carbon so much and now the ride of the magnesium Dogma....I'd definately be on a Moots.You don't have to look any farther than the welds.

[rePhil]

I had a difficult time justifying a new frame when I had several nice steel bikes to choose from.I really wanted to try Ti and had been looking for a used Legend when I came across a used Moots.
It's the right bike for me. But there are so many other builders to choose from.

[itsflantastic]

but going by reputation, i'd say either spectrum or holland

[slinkywizard]

Darren Crisp...Winner of the `04 (`05??) NAHBS best titanium frame award if I`m not mistaken. Very nice double pass welds...Steve Potts also welds a hell of a frame

[big shanty]

Based on welds alone.....Moots, Kent Eriksen, Steve Potts

[dave thompson]

Based on welds alone.....Moots, Kent Eriksen, Steve Potts
...are only a (very visable) part of the equation. Design rules; if the design isn't good, the welds don't matter.

[big shanty]

...are only a (very visable) part of the equation. Design rules; if the design isn't good, the welds don't matter.

All 3 of those builders have an established record of designing great bikes. Most of the people who frequent this forum will attest that "looks matter". Very few people on this forum want to ride a well-designed ti bike with sloppy welds. Maybe I should have worded it as "Based on the look of welds, among elite ti frame designers/builders".

[David Kirk]

...are only a (very visable) part of the equation. Design rules; if the design isn't good, the welds don't matter.

WORD!

Dave

[Steelhead]

today: Moots, I.F., Kish
past: Ibis, Litespeed, Dean

:banana:

[rdparadise]

Spectrum Ti frames were originally produced by Merlin for Tom Kellog. When Merlins were not owned by Litespeed, they made a beautiful product.

I concur that Moots Ti bikes are works of art. I would also say that Seven's with many of the folks from the original Merlin working for them, make a sweet ride as well. To me, it's a tossup between these three builders, Serotta, Moots and Seven for the best Ti bicycle frames.

Bob :bike:

[dave thompson]

All 3 of those builders have an established record of designing great bikes. Most of the people who frequent this forum will attest that "looks matter". Very few people on this forum want to ride a well-designed ti bike with sloppy welds. Maybe I should have worded it as "Based on the look of welds, among elite ti frame designers/builders".
Wasn't meaning to diss these builders, but some folks get so wrapped up in appearances, the design gets short shrift and comes in second. Should be the other way 'round.

[SPINDAWG]

All 3 of those builders have an established record of designing great bikes. Most of the people who frequent this forum will attest that "looks matter". Very few people on this forum want to ride a well-designed ti bike with sloppy welds. Maybe I should have worded it as "Based on the look of welds, among elite ti frame designers/builders".


AMEN brother....very well stated!!!!!

[slowgoing]

Off the shelf: Moots. Bought a used one and love everything about it, especially how it rides.

No experience with custom.

[obtuse]

easy. if you're not going to get a serotta legend ti; which is the best ti bike by far-you've go to go for a de rosa xs.

obtuse

[BoulderGeek]

I have lusted after Moots' VaMoots for years.

I have visited them in Steamboat three times, just drooling, chatting and being obviously poor.

I have to say, though, after owning a Litespeed Tuscany for a year, my drive for an all-Ti bike has diminished significantly. Maybe I need a 6/4 bike. The Tuscany just never felt right, lots of BB sway out of the saddle, not enough descending confidence. It just felt like I was a-wrasslin' it all of the time,rather than a synergistic expression of gestalt, as one might say around these parts.

The mixed materials of my Nove have definitely won my heart. I would heavily consider a Fierte IT if I ever lost this Nove. And I think that would happen over a Vamoots at this point.

Prior lust has said that the (now discontinued) Colnago CT2 would be the Ti bike of choice for me.

Sorry, drifted off topic.

Are there any Fierte Ti riders who submit their bikes as a paragon of the Ti build-out?

[stevep]

I have to say, though, after owning a Litespeed Tuscany for a year, my drive for an all-Ti bike has diminished significantly. Maybe I need a 6/4 bike. The Tuscany just never felt right, lots of BB sway out of the saddle, not enough descending confidence.
Are there any Fierte Ti riders who submit their bikes as a paragon of the Ti build-out?

that thing is a shiitebox. dont judge ti bikes by that contraption. you would like a well made ti bike cause they are good.
its something like..." i had a ride in a yugo...kept breaking down so im not going to buy that mercedes... because all cars stink..."

[davids]

The mixed materials of my Nove have definitely won my heart. I would heavily consider a Fierte IT if I ever lost this Nove. And I think that would happen over a Vamoots at this point.

Are there any Fierte Ti riders who submit their bikes as a paragon of the Ti build-out?
I, too, am a big Nove fan. And would have bought a Fierte IT if I hadn't bought my Nove.

I loved the all-Ti Fierte I rode nearly as much as the Nove. It's hard for me to imagine that the Concours or Legend could be that much better. But I've been known to have my imagination let me down!

...so, yeah:

#1: Legend
#2: Concours
#3: Fierte

That's enough Ti for me. But I'd probably look at a Moots, Spectrum, or IF if I was forced to leave Saratoga Springs.

[dave thompson]

<snip>..................
I have to say, though, after owning a Litespeed Tuscany for a year, my drive for an all-Ti bike has diminished significantly. Maybe I need a 6/4 bike. The Tuscany just never felt right, lots of BB sway out of the saddle, not enough descending confidence. It just felt like I was a-wrasslin' it all of the time,rather than a synergistic expression of gestalt, as one might say around these parts..........<snip>
Good lord, don't judge all Ti bikes by a Litespeed! I had a Tuscany, for a very short time, and it reinforced my belief that there are many all-Ti builders that are better at doing what makes an all-Ti bike good. My Serotta and Spectrum are lightyears ahead of Litespeed in all respects.

[Grant McLean]

easy. if you're not going to get a serotta legend ti; which is the best ti bike by far-you've go to go for a de rosa xs.

obtuse

but fer chrissakes, get one with a level top tube. :)


g

[obtuse]

but fer chrissakes, get one with a level top tube. :)


g

yeah what grant said.

obtuse

[coylifut]

Spectrum Ti frames were originally produced by Merlin for Tom Kellog. When Merlins were not owned by Litespeed, they made a beautiful product.

I concur that Moots Ti bikes are works of art. I would also say that Seven's with many of the folks from the original Merlin working for them, make a sweet ride as well. To me, it's a tossup between these three builders, Serotta, Moots and Seven for the best Ti bicycle frames.

Bob :bike:

this comment comes up from time to time and it's an absolute urban myth. Merlin makes a far better product now than they did 10 years ago.

[Grant McLean]

this comment comes up from time to time and it's an absolute urban myth. Merlin makes a far better product now than they did 10 years ago.

Maybe it depends on what model and year they're talking about.

A current Merlin Extralight is almost exactly the same frame it was when it
was introduced. But there's been good and bad stuff come and go over the
years. Their attempt at an integrated headset was a particularly curious idea.


g

[soulspinner]

Mr Kish taught most of these guys how to build a frame...

[swoop]

seven makes amazing ti frames. frankly i'd put them up in first with severaL others assuming the geom and design is right.
who ever said litespeed.... thanks for the laugh!


um, define the parameters your looking for in a frame.. because different manufacturers do different things ....
seven has the capacitty to make an extremly agile frame.
spectrum can make a ti frame that fits you better than anyone using a standard fit system..... stuff like that.


it's about what you bring to the table and what you ask of a frame. i don't mean this to be rude... but most folks here will hit their own limitations long before they will the frame's given the design is right.


i just finsihed six hours on this bike, the whole time i'm on it i'm mesmorized by the ride quality. no other bike i've been on does that to me.

[big shanty]

I've heard that Kish's bikes are top-notch. Personally, in browsing his galleries, I find the recurring theme his top-tube to head-tube joinery to be a bit on the ugly side..see the examples below. To my "untrained eye" it always looks like something was mis-measured and welded anyway (this is clearly not the case, it's just his design aesthetic). I just don't like the way the the top tube overlaps w/ the headtube reinforcement...it looks funny to me.

[Bill Bove]

I'm looking at a Merlin CR3/2.5 Works right now leaning up against my Legend, both the same size and same builds. I'm kinda liking the Merlin :eek: There are a couple of things I'd change but that's why they offer custom :hello:

[AgilisMerlin]

Merlin :banana:


nuff said,


the original. imo



AmerliN

[Frustration]

It's sure as hell not anyone's rebadged would be Italian Russian stuff.

And not one of the American Bicycle Group anymore (not that there are not good builders within, but there are better spent dollars with others)...

I loved my Old Palmares, and the first Ledgend.




Lynskey

Seven

IF

Would be my choices now, but Serotta would also be on that menu.



.

[coylifut]

I'm looking at a Merlin CR3/2.5 Works right now leaning up against my Legend, both the same size and same builds. I'm kinda liking the Merlin :eek: There are a couple of things I'd change but that's why they offer custom :hello:

what would you change? I value your opinion and would like to know.

tk

[big shanty]

Steve Potts has a newly-spruced website. Check it out:

http://www.stevepottsbicycles.com/index.php

"My philosophy on building any bike is to make it straight, reliable and built to
do the job you want it to do, the frame's weight is a by product of good
engineering, the fit is super important."

[rpm]

Let me put in a word for Carl Strong, who has forgotten more about welding than many other builders ever knew. I have a Strong ti and I love it.

Let me also put in a word for the Serotta Fierte ti and LaCorsa. Serotta says that the Fierte ti is second only to the Ottrot in sales. I think there's a reason for that. Butting doesn't seem nearly as important to ti as it is to steel. Well selected straight guage ti (e.g., Moots, Strong, Fierte) gives about 98% of the qualities of butted ti, atmo. I haven't ridden them, but I'd take a serious look at the Fierte for a stock size, and the LaCorsa for a custom. I bet they have a great ride, and you get all that Serotta expertise and cachet at a really good price.

[obtuse]

It's sure as hell not anyone's rebadged would be Italian Russian stuff.

.


de rosas are not russian. the ti bikes are made in house; technologically the equivalent of the cheapest serotta yet perfect geometry; straight and they ride nice. its cool to see de rosa sponsered riders on'em too. generally that happens when a rider needs a special geometry pronto- ti is the quickest option since the frame doesn't have to go elsewhere for heat treating and the carbons are tough to work with in terms of minute changes; but hey catulle asked for the second best and a few of 'em are still welded by ugo himself.

obtuse

[manet]

it ain't second best _ it's a spectrum.

[Len J]

I think, IMO, they are butt ugly.......different strokes for different folks.

Welds are pretty...but what does that contribute to the bike?

The industrial dull Ti look is just not my thing.

If I was looking for TI......Spectrum.......Tom Kelloggs fitting, design, QC & Paint coupled with Merlins manufacturing.

Len

[slowgoing]

de rosas are not russian.
obtuse

He may have meant the Colnago CT2. It is Russian rebadged Italian

[jbrainin]

If we're discussing the legacy of Ti bicycles, in remembering that Merlin started the Ti bike revolution, we should recall that its founders were Mike Augsburger and Gary Helfrich. These are the guys who taught virtually all of today's quality Ti bike builders. Both Seven and IF have a connection to these folks. (Even Serotta had a connection to Augspurger: they supplied him the seat stays for the One-Off Titanium bike he built for me in 1993. I still love the bike but can no longer ride it as the geometry doesn't work for me now.) They are not big self-promoting types--well, at least Augspurger isn't--but they still deserve much credit for the work they did in getting the Ti bike established as a viable product.

[trophyoftexas]

"I still ride my same old steel bike I built umpteen years ago (I am tempted be like Tom Ritchey and contend it was constructed prenatal). At this point I care far more that I can get out and ride rather than having a frigging nerdfest over frame materials. The worst frame material is the one that creates a need to purchase a SUV and never take the bike off the rack."

Does anyone know the family background of Gary? There was a family of Helfrich's in Saginaw, Michigan when I was growing up there, wondered if he is from this clan?

[93legendti]

Strong and Spectrum. Carl Strong's welds are exquisite:

http://www.strongframes.com/design_&_fabrication/tour/?type=image_gallery&start=11

[RPS]

Welds are pretty...but what does that contribute to the bike?You are right in that a pretty well is not necessarily stronger, but in my experience in industry, weld appearance is a very good indication of a welder's talent and knowledge. Admittedly, I would not take it too far because I've seen many pretty "smooth" welds on the outside that were horrendous when tested, or inspected from inside a tube or pipe. Ugly welds on the other hand were almost always bad.

I guess that’s why reputation is important. When I needed a custom titanium frame, I went with Holland because of his reputation. And he didn’t disappoint -- the picture below shows welds are excellent (the bronze-like color is due to photo).

[Frustration]

He may have meant the Colnago CT2. It is Russian rebadged Italian


No, I stand corrected by Jerk. I was just talking about the two bikes (CT2 and T2) yesterday and got em crossed.


That said, I wouldn't go with a stock sized DeRosa either (and can't realy agree that anyones stock geometry is specifically "perfect" for most folks), when a custom Lynskey or Seven or Serotta or IF would be on the menu for similar money.


I love me some Italian, but when the subject is Titanium, the Eastern US is Meca.



.

[BoulderGeek]

What a good education one can find on this board.

Thanks for the confirmations that they Litespeed Tuscany is a sucktastic bike (especially for those over 200lbs). My old Scandium rig feels much more lively and stable. I sold that Litespeed after only about 300 miles.