Tandem build - half a rant, half questions

[Gothard]

Edit - whoops, posted in the wrong section. Can a Mod migrate it? thanks.

As some may have seen in the gallery, our tandem frame has arrived. Now to build it.

Rant - hubs: with a combined weight of 320 lbs *without* the bike, I am leaning towards 40 spoke wheels with Velocity Dyad rims. I would have wanted Chris King hubs (I am vain), so shot an email to them. No hubs over 32 holes…

Rant - brakes: The frame is setup with post mount. I can not find Sram nor Shimano groupsets with anything else than flat mount. The ever changing std gets old really quick…

Question - Hubs: besides the White Industries and the boat Anchor Phils, any other good alternative, in 12X142, disc and 40 spoke drilling?

Question - brakes: Can I mix and match, for instance Sram eTap with shimano calipers?

Question - brakes: I see adapters from flat to post mount but not the other way around?

[jtakeda]

Question 3:

Maybe these? www.assolutions.ca

[Gothard]

OK, got it wrong, but not there yet. My mounts:

[jtakeda]

I’d print out the thing on that Canadian website and see if the IS to flatmount adapter will work

[smead]

A few years ago had a tandem wheelset built around 36 hole dyads and 14/15 spokes 3 cross. These are stout wheels. Those are beefy rims, I would think 36 spokes will do fine for you, and hopefully open up more hub options.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Rims have come a long way since the Dyad was released. I'd say there are lots of better options out there even for a tandem. I'd go with a modern tubeless design and wide rubber. Carbon MTB rims would seem to make sense here.

You cannot mix SRAM and Shimano hydraulic levers and calipers, no.

[AngryScientist]

and hopefully open up more hub options.

moved it for you.

on the hub topic, i think i'd want to make sure with any hub mfg, especially road racing hubs like the R45's that they are OK with that kind of weight. for a 350# machine, you want pretty stout axles and such.

[pdmtong]

Edit - whoops, posted in the wrong section. Can a Mod migrate it? thanks.

As some may have seen in the gallery, our tandem frame has arrived. Now to build it.

Rant - hubs: with a combined weight of 320 lbs *without* the bike, I am leaning towards 40 spoke wheels with Velocity Dyad rims. I would have wanted Chris King hubs (I am vain), so shot an email to them. No hubs over 32 holes…

Rant - brakes: The frame is setup with post mount. I can not find Sram nor Shimano groupsets with anything else than flat mount. The ever changing std gets old really quick…

Question - Hubs: besides the White Industries and the boat Anchor Phils, any other good alternative, in 12X142, disc and 40 spoke drilling?

Question - brakes: Can I mix and match, for instance Sram eTap with shimano calipers?

Question - brakes: I see adapters from flat to post mount but not the other way around?

Actually, the ever-changing has stopped changing. The road world has settled on flat mount. Did you request post? it seems odd to me they built it with post given that flat has been here for almost two years now. or maybe its because flat mounts cant handle the rotor size needed for tandems?

Question - Hubs: besides the White Industries and the boat Anchor Phils, any other good alternative, in 12X142, disc and 40 spoke drilling?
>> Many folks prefer WI over CK. I think 40h is overkill unless you are planning to have it fully loaded touring. 36h will be fine. We are 290#s with 32h CK on our full-suspension tandem and no issues. Steel drive shell.

Question - brakes: Can I mix and match, for instance Sram eTap with shimano calipers?
>> no - you have to stay with the same mfg

Question - brakes: I see adapters from flat to post mount but not the other way around?
>> I didn't think these existed BUT I think the issue is you will want a 203 front / 180 rear and finding an adapter will be harder

Beautiful frame - the last one! I hope it gives you both plenty of memories

One thing you could do is speak to someone at co-motion to get some insight on wheels and brakes
https://co-motion.com/pages/contact-us

[hokoman]

Rant - brakes: The frame is setup with post mount. I can not find Sram nor Shimano groupsets with anything else than flat mount. The ever changing std gets old really quick…

There are a lot of NOS post mount caliper brakes around, you'll need to mix and match, but it makes sense for the oversized rotors you are going to run on that bike.

Sweet tandem.

[GregL]

Rant - hubs: with a combined weight of 320 lbs *without* the bike, I am leaning towards 40 spoke wheels with Velocity Dyad rims. I would have wanted Chris King hubs (I am vain), so shot an email to them. No hubs over 32 holes…
My wife and I easily combine to 330-340 lbs. when kitted up for our tandem. Our everyday wheelset uses 40 spokes front/rear. They provide great reliability and peace of mind. Besides the aforementioned White Industries, Phil Wood, and Chris King, other hub brands to look at include DT Swiss and NOS Shimano. Another option is the Rolf pre-built tandem wheels (https://rolfprima.com/pages/tandem-wheels). We have a set of the aluminum rim models that have held up perfectly as our race/fast century wheels. They are remarkably light for their intended purpose and have never required trueing.

Greg

[marciero]

As far as rims go, Velocity Aileron would both be great choice if you are considering alloy. Low weight, 21mm internal width, tubeless design, available in 36 and 40 hole drillings. We have a set of 36 hole 650b on a tandem that have stood up heavy use, including loaded touring, on all kinds of terrain. I am sure that 36 hole would be plenty even for the 700c version, esp. in light of the 28mm depth.
The cliffhangers would also be a good choice if you want wider, but are heavier

[unterhausen]

that's an ISO brake mount. Needs a post mount adapter. As others have said though, don't think you want flat mount brakes. But I thought that Shimano had post mount brakes that were compatible with their road setups?

[bikinchris]

Phil tandem hubs. Unless you are racing, overbuild the wheels. Dyad rims 40 hole cross 4. Personally, I would even consider 48 hole rear. But I don't ever want to true my wheels.
No, you can't mix SRAM brake parts with Shimano. SRAM uses DOT fluid and Shimano uses mineral oil. The soft parts and seals for one don't like the other.

[GregL]

Phil tandem hubs. Unless you are racing, overbuild the wheels. Dyad rims 40 hole cross 4. Personally, I would even consider 48 hole rear. But I don't ever want to true my wheels.
Second the recommendation for 40 hole rims on your “everyday” tandem wheels. My wife and I rode our tandem on the local cycling club’s Wednesday night ride earlier this evening. On a flat to rolling course, we spent a lot of time on the pointy end of the fast group. We hit several bad potholes at speed, but our wheels didn’t suffer any ill effects. I was happily surprised to NOT get any pinch flats too.

Greg

[Gothard]

Thank you for the advice, one an all. I (finally) had some time to browse the web. It seems that for my needs/wants/budget, I will go with White Industries hubs in 40 drilling, and alloy rims.

Any tubeless, proven alternative to the Velocity rims? We'll be up to 400 lbs when loaded, and ride the Alps, with long rough descents.

Tire-wise I really want to use Compass (Herse) models, but I am not sure they'll stand up to tandem weight. Panaracer and Schwalbe have some very strong tires. Any other ideas?

I think I will manage the braking with a Shimano setup, who still sell post mount calipers separately.

[oldpotatoe]

As far as rims go, Velocity Aileron would both be great choice if you are considering alloy. Low weight, 21mm internal width, tubeless design, available in 36 and 40 hole drillings. We have a set of 36 hole 650b on a tandem that have stood up heavy use, including loaded touring, on all kinds of terrain. I am sure that 36 hole would be plenty even for the 700c version, esp. in light of the 28mm depth.
The cliffhangers would also be a good choice if you want wider, but are heavier

I would agree with this altho Ailerons pretty light..36h and somewhat beefy spokes like Sapim Strong or Force. Also Blunt SS(lighter still)...

Hubs? See it's WI in 40h..
Any tubeless, proven alternative to the Velocity rims? We'll be up to 400 lbs when loaded, and ride the Alps, with long rough descents.

Not many 40h rims out there, let alone tubeless and Velocity are very nice rims..not sure why you are looking for an alternative..

Cliffhanger..get NMS..Non Machined Sidewall

https://www.velocityusa.com/product/rims/cliff-hanger-622

[CNY rider]

Thank you for the advice, one an all. I (finally) had some time to browse the web. It seems that for my needs/wants/budget, I will go with White Industries hubs in 40 drilling, and alloy rims.

Any tubeless, proven alternative to the Velocity rims? We'll be up to 400 lbs when loaded, and ride the Alps, with long rough descents.

Tire-wise I really want to use Compass (Herse) models, but I am not sure they'll stand up to tandem weight. Panaracer and Schwalbe have some very strong tires. Any other ideas?

I think I will manage the braking with a Shimano setup, who still sell post mount calipers separately.

I ride a triple with my kids. Our weight with the bike is around 350 lbs.
I don't think it's a good application for Compass tires (as much as I love them on my other bikes).
I use a burly Continental tire....Top Contact or something like that. I'm at work and can't remember the exact name. With the weight of all of us, and having my kids on the bike, I sacrifice a little ride quality for a sturdy tire.

[Gothard]

Elder Tubercule,
I don't want anything else than Dyads, AFAIK, but I am making sure I am not missing on a better rim. It seems not.

[oldpotatoe]

Elder Tubercule,
I don't want anything else than Dyads, AFAIK, but I am making sure I am not missing on a better rim. It seems not.

10-4...Dyads are great rims..I have built many but Dyads aren't tubeless compatible...
Any tubeless, proven alternative to the Velocity rims? We'll be up to 400 lbs when loaded, and ride the Alps, with long rough descents.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Wheelbuilder offers these:

Astral Leviathan Disc (https://wheelbuilder.com/astral-leviathan-leviathan-disc-rim/) (wider than Dyad and tubeless)

[Gothard]

Ooh, Colonel,
Those look nice.

[marciero]

Wheelbuilder offers these:

Astral Leviathan Disc (https://wheelbuilder.com/astral-leviathan-leviathan-disc-rim/) (wider than Dyad and tubeless)

Appears that their "disc-specific" rims are simply the rim brake version with non-machined sidewall, rather than a disc-specific design. Perhaps not a huge issue but a consideration

One thing to remember with deep profile rims is to carry spare tubes with long enough valve stems, or a valve extender-even if tubeless you will want tubes as a back-up.

..

Tire-wise I really want to use Compass (Herse) models, but I am not sure they'll stand up to tandem weight. Panaracer and Schwalbe have some very strong tires. Any other ideas?
...


I've had no tandem-specific issues with Compass, both with 700c and 650b tires in extra light versions in all kinds of riding, including loaded touring. I dont think they are any more prone to sidewall cuts, for example, than on a single bike. I also inquired and Hahn at Compass had no warnings or caveats about their tires for tandem use. That said, on a recent tour with our 700c tandem I swapped the 32 Compass EL tires for 35 Panaracer Pasela (folding version), strictly for additional puncture protection (or perceived protection) from the thicker tread. They are great, and actually ride really great.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Appears that their disc-specific rims are simply non-machined sidewall rim brake rims, rather than a disc-specific design, not that that is a huge issue.

True, but that's also the case for the Dyad which is a touch narrower, a touch heavier, less aero and not tubeless.

[GregL]

That said, on a recent tour with our 700c tandem I swapped the 32 Compass EL tires for 35 Panaracer Pasela (folding version), strictly for additional puncture protection (or perceived protection) from the thicker tread. They are great, and actually ride really great.
We use the Panaracer T-Serv tires as our "go-to" tandem training tire with similar results. The T-Servs have a slightly stronger sidewall than the Paselas. They are very reliable and IMO ride very well for such a sturdy tire.

Greg

[marciero]

True, but that's also the case for the Dyad which is a touch narrower, a touch heavier, less aero and not tubeless.

Was comparing more with Aileron (and perhaps Belgium though those are 32 hole max.) I've not heard of these rims but they do have the Rolf Prima imprimatur.

[Gothard]

Wheelbuilder offers these:

Astral Leviathan Disc (https://wheelbuilder.com/astral-leviathan-leviathan-disc-rim/) (wider than Dyad and tubeless)

Aaand it falls on its face… The guys at wheelbulder want 120$ to post a pair to me in Switzerland.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Aaand it falls on its face… The guys at wheelbulder want 120$ to post a pair to me in Switzerland.

$17.37 to my house. I'm happy to be a middle man for you if it helps.

There is a Rolf Prima dealer (https://rolfprima.com/pages/international) in Switzerland. Perhaps they can order them for you.

[Pegoready]

Actually, the ever-changing has stopped changing. The road world has settled on flat mount. Did you request post? it seems odd to me they built it with post given that flat has been here for almost two years now. or maybe its because flat mounts cant handle the rotor size needed for tandems?



To anyone saying this frame/fork should have been built for flat mounts, I disagree. Flat Mount calipers are native to 140 mm rotors and you can get adapters for 160 mm rotors. But for bigger rotor sizes, there is no good way to make Flat Mount brakes work. Most tandems get 203 mm rotors and should get MTB style post mount brakes.

Because those mounts are ISO, you will just need a simple ISO-to-Post adapter for whatever rotor size you want. They're front/rear specific:

https://www.competitivecyclist.com/shimano-disc-brake-adaptors

The ISO mounts are smart because there is no threading so if you mess up the threads it's on an $8 adapter not a $8000 frame.

You should be able to mix your SRAM road levers with SRAM hydraulic MTB post mount brakes.

[David Tollefson]

To anyone saying this frame/fork should have been built for flat mounts, I disagree. Flat Mount calipers are native to 140 mm rotors and you can get adapters for 160 mm rotors. But for bigger rotor sizes, there is no good way to make Flat Mount brakes work. Most tandems get 203 mm rotors and should get MTB style post mount brakes.

Because those mounts are ISO, you will just need a simple ISO-to-Post adapter for whatever rotor size you want. They're front/rear specific:

https://www.competitivecyclist.com/shimano-disc-brake-adaptors

The ISO mounts are smart because there is no threading so if you mess up the threads it's on an $8 adapter not a $8000 frame.

You should be able to mix your SRAM road levers with SRAM hydraulic MTB post mount brakes.

^^ voice of reason. Thank you.

[pdmtong]

To anyone saying this frame/fork should have been built for flat mounts, I disagree. Flat Mount calipers are native to 140 mm rotors and you can get adapters for 160 mm rotors. But for bigger rotor sizes, there is no good way to make Flat Mount brakes work. Most tandems get 203 mm rotors and should get MTB style post mount brakes.

Because those mounts are ISO, you will just need a simple ISO-to-Post adapter for whatever rotor size you want. They're front/rear specific:

https://www.competitivecyclist.com/shimano-disc-brake-adaptors

The ISO mounts are smart because there is no threading so if you mess up the threads it's on an $8 adapter not a $8000 frame.

You should be able to mix your SRAM road levers with SRAM hydraulic MTB post mount brakes.

exactly...I was thinking should have been flat BUT flat only is native 140 with adapter for 160...and I would want 203/180 on a tandem

[Gothard]

OK, I think I have got it all clear. Get a groupset and buy separate (same brand) mtb calipers and custom length tubing for the rear brake.

Wheels are decided: Leviathan rims with White Industries hubset.

Now: Seatposts: 30.4mm. Besides Bold Precision, which I love, any potential candidates?

[bikinchris]

IMO the bearings in White hubs are built for weight weenies. Tiny. Fine for singles, but unless they have a tandem specific hub built with stronger bearings, I would go to Phil. CK is the same way, too tiny.

[buddybikes]

What are you using for handlebars?

We tended to use bit wider bars. On stocker took old pair of bars, then chopped ends off so was like old track bike.

[stien]

I’ve always had wider bars on captains but am wondering if my preferred size of 38 would be ok.

OPs frame is gorgeous. Can’t wait to see it built.

[Gothard]

IMO the bearings in White hubs are built for weight weenies. Tiny. Fine for singles, but unless they have a tandem specific hub built with stronger bearings, I would go to Phil. CK is the same way, too tiny.

Are you sure of that?

Rant on: The XMRT, built for tandems, is a 145mm OLD, Qick release. My Tandem is 142X12....
White has no tandem specific front hub.

The Phil wood rear tandem hub is 145X15 and the front disc hub is 100X15mm (I have 100X12)...

[oldpotatoe]

Are you sure of that?

Rant on: The XMRT, built for tandems, is a 145mm OLD, Quick release. My Tandem is 142X12....
White has no tandem specific front hub.

The Phil wood rear tandem hub is 145X12 and the front disc hub is 100X15mm (I have 100X12)...

Search continues, I see, for a rear hub that's 142/12 TA and also 36h or 40h..

I'd email this gent to see if DT540 rear hubs can be converted to TA..You can use any front MTB hub that's 100/12..if you can find a 36h..

https://www.velocityusa.com/product/hubs/mountain-disc-front-hub

techusa@dtswiss.com

Dave Agapito..

[Drmojo]

Phil tandem hubs. Unless you are racing, overbuild the wheels. Dyad rims 40 hole cross 4. Personally, I would even consider 48 hole rear. But I don't ever want to true my wheels.
No, you can't mix SRAM brake parts with Shimano. SRAM uses DOT fluid and Shimano uses mineral oil. The soft parts and seals for one don't like the other.
We have dyads and phil hubs 32/36
Combined wt of team 320 lbs
Rear disc is sufficient stopping power

[PaMtbRider]

I just have to ask, shouldn't these details been figured out during the initial frame design process?

[happycampyer]

I just have to ask, shouldn't these details been figured out during the initial frame design process?I was thinking the same thing—glad someone asked.

[Gothard]

Well, I commissioned a tandem from someone who knows how to build them has done them for God knows how many years. I was not about to second guess him.
It will all fall into place, I am confident. There are challenges, but it makes things interesting.

New rant: AVT velotech have a Phil rear 142X12 ISO disc hub with 40 holes, which does not exist on Phil Wood's own site...

[bikinchris]

Well, I commissioned a tandem from someone who knows how to build them has done them for God knows how many years. I was not about to second guess him.
It will all fall into place, I am confident. There are challenges, but it makes things interesting.

New rant: AVT velotech have a Phil rear 142X12 ISO disc hub with 40 holes, which does not exist on Phil Wood's own site...

When you spec Phil hubs that aren't plain Jane models, you are usually better off calling them. They are nice people who can do so many options they don't or can't list because it would be confusing.

[54ny77]

It's worth a call, email, etc. to these folks on all things tandem.

http://www.tandemseast.com/

Any idea as to target weight? 30's-ish?

Looking forward to seeing that beauty all built up! :cool:

[oldpotatoe]

Search continues, I see, for a rear hub that's 142/12 TA and also 36h or 40h..

I'd email this gent to see if DT540 rear hubs can be converted to TA..You can use any front MTB hub that's 100/12..if you can find a 36h..

https://www.velocityusa.com/product/hubs/mountain-disc-front-hub

techusa@dtswiss.com

Dave Agapito..

Answer from Dave, DT540 rear hub not convertible BUT there is a DT350 rear hub that is TA/142/12 and 36h...a distributor local to me has them.