Restoring classic steel bikes

[DCilliams]

Question for the steel aficionados, especially those who've restored frames in poor shape.

I was looking at restoring a relatively rare frame - - nice repaint and chroming. However, it turns out the rust is bad enough on the top tube that tube will likely need to be replaced.

Have any of you guys had this done? My initial reaction is that this is beyond restoring a bike, but replacing or changing it.

What's your take or experience with this?

[FlashUNC]

Ship of Theseus man.

[bigbill]

Question for the steel aficionados, especially those who've restored frames in poor shape.

I was looking at restoring a relatively rare frame - - nice repaint and chroming. However, it turns out the rust is bad enough on the top tube that tube will likely need to be replaced.

Have any of you guys had this done? My initial reaction is that this is beyond restoring a bike, but replacing or changing it.

What's your take or experience with this?

Bilenky replaces top tubes for $250. Many experienced builders offer this service. It comes down to an emotional attachment to a bike and if it's worth restoring to a rideable condition or making it wall art.

[DCilliams]

Ship of Theseus man.

Flash I always enjoy your comments lol Thanks for not disappointing. The fog has lifted.

[DCilliams]

Bilenky replaces top tubes for $250. Many experienced builders offer this service. It comes down to an emotional attachment to a bike and if it's worth restoring to a rideable condition or making it wall art.

Good point. I'm not the original owner, so the emotional attachment isn't there. It'd just be a cool frame to restore, but tube replacement gives me pause. Thanks!

[FlashUNC]

Just to get super meta, the bike is never the same. It's always changing. Enjoy it for what it is and what it becomes, but don't fret about freezing it in amber for all time.

If you like it and want to ride it, then swap the tube. Otherwise, you've got some wall art.

[charliedid]

"And you may tell yourself, this in not my beautiful wife"

I have no advice

[arimajol]

I went through this decision process after crashing on a Gios Torino Super Record. A local, well-respected frame builder counseled that to replace tubes and repaint would cost more than finding a comparable used vintage frame. Unless its sentimentally more valuable than the money, not usually worth it.

[old_fat_and_slow]

If it's relatively rare (like you said), if it fits you well, if you like it a lot, then absolutely go for it. I would have no qualms replacing multiple tubes if that's what it takes to make it rideable and reliable again.

[JasonF]

Ship of Theseus man.

Reminds me of the classic "Longhood" 911 community. Since these cars were not galvanized, they were prone to rust and some guys would buy 911S and RS tubs that were too far gone to save, cut out the VIN plate and build a new car around it. The rationale for the delusional was that since the VIN plate was salvaged it was still an "S" or even better, an "RS".

[Bentley]

So you go and replace the top tube, but in the middle of the job they find more corrosion. I dont see how the corrosion would be limited to the top tube. If the bike has a compromised top tube, my guess is that the rest of the tubes are in similar or degrading condition

I would suggest finding a frame in better condition

Ray

[Ken Robb]

I went through this decision process after crashing on a Gios Torino Super Record. A local, well-respected frame builder counseled that to replace tubes and repaint would cost more than finding a comparable used vintage frame. Unless its sentimentally more valuable than the money, not usually worth it.

I agree. I might do it for a frame I had raced or toured extensively to preserve an old friend but restorations of old bike, cars, boats, and motorcycles usually cost more time/money than these things will be worth when finished.

[TimD]

Reminds me of the classic "Longhood" 911 community. Since these cars were not galvanized, they were prone to rust and some guys would buy 911S and RS tubs that were too far gone to save, cut out the VIN plate and build a new car around it. The rationale for the delusional was that since the VIN plate was salvaged it was still an "S" or even better, an "RS".

Right. See also '914/6'.

We all know what opinions are like, but mine on this practice is that it is fundamentally dishonest if undisclosed and just opportunistic otherwise. Keep the VIN on the tub, build it to whatever spec you want, and call it a tribute car or replica instead.

[nickl]

Reminds me of the classic "Longhood" 911 community. Since these cars were not galvanized, they were prone to rust and some guys would buy 911S and RS tubs that were too far gone to save, cut out the VIN plate and build a new car around it. The rationale for the delusional was that since the VIN plate was salvaged it was still an "S" or even better, an "RS".

I agree that some 911 fanboys are irrational. Hardly the same as replacing a top tube for approximately $250 especially on a restoration project including new paint.

[NHAero]

I think it depends how much damage is there, how widespread it is. I bought a Bilenky tandem here last year with a small corrosion hole in the stoker seat tube close to the FD. That corrosion was fairly localized (one advantage of the seat tube is that you can easily inspect it - I imagine a boroscope might be used for other tubes). I felt fine doing a home brew repair. I drilled the hole out to 1/8" to get clean edges, then cleaned out the inside of the tube to get any loose rust out. I rolled up some bronze screen and pushed it down the tube so as to go past the hole about 2" in each direction, to act as reinforcing for the 5 minute epoxy I injected through the hole, first with the hole facing up, then rotated the frame 180 degrees and did the same with the hole facing down.

[unterhausen]

I have thought about doing this and decided it's almost never worth it. And I can replace the tube myself. But the paint job alone will probably cost more than a compatible frame in good shape.

But I have no problem with the tube replacement. Maybe if repairs were more extensive than that, dunno. If it really were a historically valuable frame, I would probably leave it. How bad can a top tube really get?

[andrew+]

Vintage racing bikes were designed to be crashed, repaired and reused, so a single tube replacement, especially a top tube, is within "restoration" range IMO.

The bike's finish won't be "original" after a repaint, whether that includes a tube replacement or not, and that's the only line that really matters to collectors.

The question you're left with: Is it worth $250 more than you were expecting to restore the bike?

[rccardr]

This.

I have had top tubes replaced for a few restoration customers who had already decided to get a respray, so the additional cost did not seem as overwhelming as it would to someone who was surprised by both paint and replacement at the same time. All of them were happy with the result.

I persoally ride a Merckx Century with a top tube replaced for the original owner by Ed Litton, and it rides as well as anything else in the collection. So, in terms of 'will it ride well with the tube replaced', my data points say yes.

But you better like that frame, 'cuz you'll never get the invested funds back out of it.

[DCilliams]

Very true.

This.

I have had top tubes replaced for a few restoration customers who had already decided to get a respray, so the additional cost did not seem as overwhelming as it would to someone who was surprised by both paint and replacement at the same time. All of them were happy with the result.

I persoally ride a Merckx Century with a top tube replaced for the original owner by Ed Litton, and it rides as well as anything else in the collection. So, in terms of 'will it ride well with the tube replaced', my data points say yes.

But you better like that frame, 'cuz you'll never get the invested funds back out of it.

[texbike]

Ship of Theseus man.

^haha! great reference!

Question for the steel aficionados, especially those who've restored frames in poor shape.

I was looking at restoring a relatively rare frame - - nice repaint and chroming. However, it turns out the rust is bad enough on the top tube that tube will likely need to be replaced.

Have any of you guys had this done? My initial reaction is that this is beyond restoring a bike, but replacing or changing it.

What's your take or experience with this?

Honestly, I just don't have the time or patience at this stage in my life to consider this level of a project. There are just too many options available unless it is something exceedingly rare that you have a desire for.

There are really only two bikes that I'm absolutely jonesing over at this point - an ex-Armstrong MXL and an early 80s Cinelli SC in pearl white that still has the 26.2 post and "drilled lugs". However, I can't imagine going to great lengths like that on either one.

I agree that some 911 fanboys are irrational. Hardly the same as replacing a top tube for approximately $250 especially on a restoration project including new paint.

There can be some massive commitment/irrationality to bringing some of these cars back. Here's a thread for a car that a neighbor and cycling buddy of ours (one of our local air-cooled gurus) has been working on for the past 5 years. The amount of effort and commitment is astounding...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/840815-project-minne-saga-72-a.html

Texbike

[Peter P.]

I would see no problem with a tube replacement under normal conditions.

But this is a chromed tube and if I'm not mistaken, the chrome plating has to be removed around the joint to replace the tube. I don't know if heating the tube will damage the adjacent chrome, or if a tube can be brazed to a junction where chrome exists.

Best to get answers to these questions before proceeding.

[bikingshearer]

"I love this axe. Best tool I've ever owned. I always feels just right. I've had it for years and I've replaced the handle three or four times and the head twice. God, I love this axe." :rolleyes:

Okay, that isn't quite fair, but it came to mind. As rccardr mentioned, Ed Litton (Pt. Richmond, CA) can do a bang-up job, both the new top tube and the respray, and probably the decals, too. (His supply of graphics is not bottomless, but it's pretty damn deep.)

[Ronsonic]

Ship of Theseus man.



Wanna trade it for George Washington's axe?

[martl]

replacing a bent tube was not unheard of as a repair before the 1970ies, it only went out of fashion because the costs for work, material and paint would eventually exceed the price of a new frame i think. I do know some 1950/60ish catalogues from larger retailers or mail order sellers that actually list that kind of service for fixed rates.

I'm considering having it done to one of mine as well, for those reasons:

- no original state to be preserved (frame has been modified, rechromedand repainted in the past)
- its a nice bike, but not an irreplaceable cultural asset
- the bike has high (sentimental) value to me

[El Chaba]

WRT the "value" of a bike being diminished via a repaint/refinishing...I wouldn't worry about it. If the bike didn't belong to Eddy or Bernard, it doesn't matter. There is no Smithsonian Institute of bikes and they only get collected by individuals. If it is something cool, unique or classy...but well worn...I am in favor of a nice restoration to return it to what it was supposed to look like. Except for the really rare and nice, vintage bike values are in the toilet...and I can't see how they are coming back as the people who lived through the era contemporary with them age out of the sport (or life entirely).

[DCilliams]

Completely agree.

WRT the "value" of a bike being diminished via a repaint/refinishing...I wouldn't worry about it. If the bike didn't belong to Eddy or Bernard, it doesn't matter. There is no Smithsonian Institute of bikes and they only get collected by individuals. If it is something cool, unique or classy...but well worn...I am in favor of a nice restoration to return it to what it was supposed to look like. Except for the really rare and nice, vintage bike values are in the toilet...and I can't see how they are coming back as the people who lived through the era contemporary with them age out of the sport (or life entirely).

[DCilliams]

^haha! great reference!

There can be some massive commitment/irrationality to bringing some of these cars back. Here's a thread for a car that a neighbor and cycling buddy of ours (one of our local air-cooled gurus) has been working on for the past 5 years. The amount of effort and commitment is astounding...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/840815-project-minne-saga-72-a.html

Texbike

Thanks for sharing that thread. What a crazy (and very cool) project!

[ultraman6970]

My 2 cents, depends a lot of the frame and condition of the problem, as was pointed out by other forumites.

THe other factor is how much money you want to put into the thing, if yu have dough for disposal which generally is not the case, pretty much you can do whatever you want.

As for chrome, once the torch touches it it will burnt and is gone, that's just a detail, the important part is if the OP wants to rechrome the damaged areas.

Another detail, not many places to get chrome done in the US any longer. there's a couple of painters that still do chrome tho.

So at the end if you add the tube, labor, paint and chrome and you go like for almost a grand, and you are already paid too much for the frame well... thats the reason some frames become chairs or wall matter. If the frame was pretty much free it worth the time to run numbers and see if it worth the expenses but at the same time the key thing at the end is... "may i get my money back at the time of selling it?, the answer generally is NO WAY"....

Restoring busted stuff is a tough call because there's no way to see the money back.

I would as AR guy how much he could ask to get that replaced, just because he is in the forums, that just to start, paint can be looked at the internet but never seen single color for less than like 250, more if its one of the famous painters. Chrome not idea...

HOpe this helps to everybody in the same position, some times is just better let the rusted holes continue their fate specially when was bought and not given away to you.

[AngryScientist]

Thanks for sharing that thread. What a crazy (and very cool) project!

that thread is epic.

makes cycling seem like child's play.

i need a project car,

[JasonF]

There can be some massive commitment/irrationality to bringing some of these cars back. Here's a thread for a car that a neighbor and cycling buddy of ours (one of our local air-cooled gurus) has been working on for the past 5 years. The amount of effort and commitment is astounding...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/840815-project-minne-saga-72-a.html

Texbike

Wow! Love his sense of humor and of course he'll probably be upside down for the next 100 years. But seeing the pics of his son working with him and with the full knowledge that hobbies cost money I say bravo!