Fixed gear with vertical drops

[victork]

This is the best place I know of to get some advice....I want to convert a steel frame with vertical drops to a fixed gear machine and am wondering if this is possible. Do I need to convert to horizontal drops? Should I just get another frame?

Thanks in advance for your advice!

V

[TimD]

Check out the White Industries ENO hub.

[victork]

Very cool. Thanks

[Steelhead]

Check out the White Industries ENO hub.

what he said - or a Soulcraft Convert.

[TimD]

I don't know if you can use a Convert with a fixed gear. Single speed, yes. Fixed gear, don't think so. I could go look at the manual, but it is too cold in the garage and too warm here in my home office!

I'm running a Convert on my single-speed. It works well. One point of advice would be to calculate, in advance, the chain length for a range of gear combinations, each combination having the desired gear ratio. There are web tools which can help with this. Doing so will allow you to choose a gear combination which will then allow you to position the Convert in a way which minimizes the slack in the chain.

I didn't do this calculation in advance and have the Convert in a 'pusher' position, all the way up, to the point where it hits the chain stay. I sometimes consider changing it, but I've had only one chain-off event (riding over railroad tracks) and chainrings are expensive.

[ergott]

SS, yes
fixed, no

If you tried to leg brake you risk the rear wheel popping out of the dropouts. When braking, the pressure is on the lower portion of the chain. This force is trying to pull the wheel forward. Fixed should have track forks for the safest way to go.

[RPS]

SS, yes
fixed, no

If you tried to leg brake you risk the rear wheel popping out of the dropouts. When braking, the pressure is on the lower portion of the chain. This force is trying to pull the wheel forward. Fixed should have track forks for the safest way to go.Does this affect the White Industries Eno Hub the same? Or does it just provide better retention to keep the wheel from popping out?

[Ray]

Does this affect the White Industries Eno Hub the same? Or does it just provide better retention to keep the wheel from popping out?
No, they're fundamentally different products. The Convert is just a chain tensioner, like the swing arm on a derailure. It's like the singleator and other similar products that will tension a chain for single speed freewheels, but won't withstand the forces of backpedalling - it could pull the wheel out or, more likely, just break the part in question.

The ENO is an eccentric hub that tensions the chain and holds the wheel in the drops in one mechanism. I suppose if you didn't tighten the hub very well, you could run into problems with it, but with normal tightening it handles backpressure very well. IMHO one of the best cycling products of the last several years and probably THE BEST for fixed gear riders. I use one on my vertical-dropout fixie and I like it better than track ends / horizontal dropouts for the way it keeps the wheel even when tightening and doesn't pull forward, like a wheel can in horizontal dropouts.

-Ray

[Benjamin]

SS, yes
fixed, no

If you tried to leg brake you risk the rear wheel popping out of the dropouts. When braking, the pressure is on the lower portion of the chain. This force is trying to pull the wheel forward. Fixed should have track forks for the safest way to go.
Does this affect the White Industries Eno Hub the same? Or does it just provide better retention to keep the wheel from popping out?

fixed will be fine, but run a front brake. popping the wheel out is possible if you're skipping and skidding brakeless due to the fact that the ENO hub has 6mm (or so?) allen bolts securing it instead of traditional track nuts on a beefy 10mm axle, and you just can't torque those allen bolts like you can real track nuts. same applies to phil hubs.

another option might be using a standard track hub and hoping for that magic chain length, a number of links that fits your gear ratio and wheel position just right, perhaps achieved through use of a half-link.

of course you'll run into problems when the chain stretches or the gears wear a little bit.

if you're serious about this endeavor and want to 'fix' the bike for good, you might visit your local frame builder, bike shop, or skilled welder and ask about installing some track ends on your frame.

most frame builders will do this job for $100 or so.

[sg8357]

Being the Serotta Forum, I suggest a Legend with ti stays.
Query can you order a Serotta with long horizontal dropouts ?
I'm thinking like Campy 1010 longs but in 6/4 plate.

Legend Path Racer anyone ?

Scott G.

[CalfeeFly]

This is the best place I know of to get some advice....I want to convert a steel frame with vertical drops to a fixed gear machine and am wondering if this is possible. Do I need to convert to horizontal drops? Should I just get another frame?

Thanks in advance for your advice!

V


If you decide to go ahead and are interested I am going to be selling a brand new Velocity Deep V (bomb proof) with an Eno Hub, Sapim Spokes, Black Brass nipples, and the Eno in black so it doesn't look like everyone out there. It is handbuilt by a craftsman. I never finished the project due to a car accident and I don't believe I will. Look into the Eno and what you want to do and let me know.

The wheel is brand new. It also includes a 17 tooth freewheel and a 17 tooth cog. It is a flip flop so you can run it either fixed or freewheel. The freewheel is an ACS and the track cog is a Miche. With build I paid around $300. Everything is top of the line.

Take care and good luck.

[dirtdigger88]

ENOs (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=23689) are cool-

Jason

[djg]

Just to reinforce what others are saying:

(1) Don't use a single-speed chain tensioner to try to get proper tension with a fixed gear;

(2) The ENO hub really does work to make vertical rear dropouts fixed gear friendly (rode such a hub, on the fixie, to work this morning);

(3) Converting a frame means that you can use all sorts of track wheels, although it may not be done as quickly as you like, and once it's done, it's done; and

(4) There are various ways to futz around with gear selection and half links such that you might get a gear around about what you want, with vertical dropouts, and reasonable chain tension, but it seems like a kludge and a relatively inflexible pain to me and I've not tried it--you might look at Sheldon Brown's web site or fixed gear gallery for suggestions on how to try this, if you're game.

[RPS]

(4) There are various ways to futz around with gear selection and half links such that you might get a gear around about what you want, with vertical dropouts, and reasonable chain tension, but it seems like a kludge and a relatively inflexible pain to me and I've not tried it--you might look at Sheldon Brown's web site or fixed gear gallery for suggestions on how to try this, if you're game.One of Sheldon's options seems simple and worth considering on a trial basis, particularly if you are not sure you will like riding a single. Has anyone tried running a single sprocket in a standard wheel?

[djg]

One of Sheldon's options seems simple and worth considering on a trial basis, particularly if you are not sure you will like riding a single. Has anyone tried running a single sprocket in a standard wheel?

I haven't, so, as above, bear with me (and sorry if I'm misreading your question). For single speed, you could follow the obtuse method: put your bike in any gear you like and ride it around without shifting. Voila, you have a single speed. If you want to go just a bit further--say, to move your deraillers to another bike and/or maybe keep the cluster clean during winter/mucky riding, you could find any old wheel that fits into your rear dropouts, go to one single cog, and probably get the right chain line by using spacers. If you want a fixed gear, and not just a single speed, then I think there may be more complications. For one, I think you have to muck with the old hub/freehub to fix it--maybe you have to ruin it? Maybe that's wrong, but nothing obvious comes to mind. Second, you still need to tension your chain properly. There's a little wiggle room here, but within the space of a link you might go from way too loose (inefficient, and risks dropping the chain, which is not so great) to too tight (which binds, which is inefficient anywhere from a bit to a ton). So, you can either get pretty lucky--your preferred gear, and the cog and chainring you have already and use to get it are just spot-on, with some given number of whole links on the chain you already have, or you can start fiddling around with cogs and chainrings and a half link to see if you can make the whole thing work (folks do this, but we're back to my story of a kludge and a potential pain). Am I missing the question?

[dirtdigger88]

go ENO and be done- geeze people

its not so hard

Jason

[Jack Brunk]

Please listen to JASON!!!




Jack

[TimD]

One of Sheldon's options seems simple and worth considering on a trial basis, particularly if you are not sure you will like riding a single. Has anyone tried running a single sprocket in a standard wheel?

That's what I'm doing. Actually, I have two cogs mounted and aligned with a spacer kit. So far I've only used one cog; I built the bike that way and just haven't gone back and removed the unused cog.

Then there's riding your geared bike and never shifting, recently suggested in this space by some jerk, but that seems a bit short on street cred. :D

The ENO hub is cool, but pricey. I wasn't aware one could get track (don't call them) dropouts retrofitted for $100, I'll have to check into that.

[Hardlyrob]

light for replacing the rear dropouts. Joe Bell charges $175 per dropout replaced. You would also need at least a partial paint job after replacing the dropout.

FWIW

[dirtdigger88]

The ENO hub is cool, but pricey. I wasn't aware one could get track (don't call them) dropouts retrofitted for $100, I'll have to check into that.


ok- last time on the dead horse thing-

so you get your dropouts changed for $100- you still need a wheel built with a SS/fixed hub- no?

benifits of the ENO

now ALL your bikes can be fixed- not just one

ability to still run rear brakes

47.5 chain line- that means your chainring can be on the OUTSIDE not the inside- just looks cooler that way

its a friggin work of art

Jason

[RPS]

The irony of it all for me is that I had a great bike with horizontal dropouts and had them replaced with vertical dropouts prior to having the frame reworked and repainted. I already had a beater MTB single speed and didn’t anticipate I would ever want another for road use. The problem I see with replacing dropouts on a nice frame is the added cost of a paint job.

Dirtdigger; sorry about introducing a second thread within a thread (i.e. -- options for building a single speed on the cheap to give it a try, not a fixed as originally posted).

[victork]

Thanks everyone. I am pretty excited about the ENO! Any experience though in changing flat tires? I've heard they are a bit hard to setup.

[spiderman]

on my fixed gear/eno hub.
on a cold winter day in iowa...
i was able to change my tufo 28
black diamond tubular tire
(prestretched/preglued)
in just a couple minutes.
i think having the right cold weather
riding gloves made a big difference.
i carry an allen wrench, extra tubular
and a road morph to make it easier.
...all things i learned right here...

[Steelhead]

correct about the Convert - I was thinking single speed rather than fixie. I'd go vertical drops for a fixed gear bike, and the approprite fork as already mentioned. :banana:

[djg]

ok- last time on the dead horse thing-

so you get your dropouts changed for $100- you still need a wheel built with a SS/fixed hub- no?

benifits of the ENO

now ALL your bikes can be fixed- not just one

ability to still run rear brakes

47.5 chain line- that means your chainring can be on the OUTSIDE not the inside- just looks cooler that way

its a friggin work of art

Jason

The chainline business really is nice--the fixed cog on the ENO lined up just right with the outer ring of the chorus crank I had on my older road bike. I just bought a Miche track chainring (and you don't have to if you want to stick with the narrower chain) and a track chain and I was good to go. The ENO is a well engineered product.

[victork]

I did it. The ENO hub worked great and I converted my old steel custom frame to a fixed gear. I don't get to open it up though until Christmas morning.

What kind of pedals should I put on my new fixie? I've never ridden one before and am really excited.

Thanks again for your help.

[bironi]

I like my Speedplay Frogs. Easy entry and exit both sides, and able to walk on rubber soles. :beer:

[djg]

I did it. The ENO hub worked great and I converted my old steel custom frame to a fixed gear. I don't get to open it up though until Christmas morning.

What kind of pedals should I put on my new fixie? I've never ridden one before and am really excited.

Thanks again for your help.

It really doesn't matter--whatever road or mtb pedals you have handy would be fine. Something that's familiar and easy for you to clip into and out of is likely best to start, although I reckon it doesn't much matter in the long run. I'd avoid platforms, as you really ought to be clipped in if you're riding fixed (track pedals, or older style quill pedals, would also be fine, if you like that, AND if you have clips and straps).

[Ray]

I did it. The ENO hub worked great and I converted my old steel custom frame to a fixed gear. I don't get to open it up though until Christmas morning.

What kind of pedals should I put on my new fixie? I've never ridden one before and am really excited.

Thanks again for your help.
To start off, I'd go with something double sided. SPD or Frogs or Eggbeaters or ATACs or whatever else is out there. It's initially odd to deal with clipping into a moving pedal and being able to just stomp on whichever side of the pedal presents itself to you is nice. After a short while, though, you'll get used to it and whatever pedal system you like for your geared bikes should be fine. And if you don't have any double sided you'll probably be fine using whatever Look or Time or whatever roadie pedals you have - it'll just take a little longer to get used to it at first.

Enjoy!

-Ray