PBK now restricting shimano sales to US

[AngryScientist]

Is this new news?

Was browsing for some pedals this morning and got that notice. Interesting!

[Lanternrouge]

Is this new news?

Was browsing for some pedals this morning and got that notice. Interesting!

I think it's been this way for at least a little while now, though I don't recall having seen an official notice on the site. Of course, it's been a while since I was actually shopping for components rather than just looking, though many of us are constantly "looking."

[raisinberry777]

All European stores have been prevented from selling outside Europe as of June 1.

[dem]

Back to buying Bikesdirect.com bikes for groupsets and selling off the frame/fork I guess!

I will miss you, UK groupsets.

[zzy]

I think it's only Shimano products that can't be shipped to the US - most other products, and Campy, seems to add fine. But you have to switch your ship location to the UK to see Shimano products. The days of the $400 105 groups are over.

[Veloo]

Merlin seems to be allowing purchases.

[CunegoFan]

All European stores have been prevented from selling outside Europe as of June 1.

And 12-speed XT just dropped. Dang!

[ntb1001]

Well....it’s only Shimano

[emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]


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[Seramount]

refuse to do a lot of business with PBK...

they were a good online vendor at one point, they suck now.

[Llewellyn]

I think it's only Shimano products that can't be shipped to the US - most other products, and Campy, seems to add fine. But you have to switch your ship location to the UK to see Shimano products. The days of the $400 105 groups are over.


Yep, the best days from buying from the UK finished a few years ago. I'm glad I stockpiled while I could.

[soulspinner]

Well....it’s only Shimano

[emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]


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:hello:

[jamesdak]

F' Shimano, I'll just buy Campagnolo. It's not like Shimano is anything special anyway and they are all ridiculous in price if bought stateside.

[Kirk007]

well its now both of the "S" companies - Sram clamped down last year. I have seen some good prices on full bikes with Dura Ace and etap groups though - I assume these aren't restricted.

[SoCalSteve]

Is this new news?

Was browsing for some pedals this morning and got that notice. Interesting!

Merlin still allows it...and they are far superior to PBK.

[R3awak3n]

PBK has actually been pretty good to me lately. I have had the opposite experience, used to be terrible as in things would take a month, last few things I got got here in a week or so.

As far as cheap shimano, bummer in a way but good in another way. To me does little as I don't buy much shimano, actually just like Angry I buy pedals but I am stocked up...

[oldpotatoe]

well its now both of the "S" companies - Sram clamped down last year. I have seen some good prices on full bikes with Dura Ace and etap groups though - I assume these aren't restricted.

AND no doubt some of those excess groups and components will find their way to 'non authorized' distribution and resale channels. JUST, as I harp on, again and again, 'warranty' may be sacrificed, as the reseller 'may' self warranty but taking some of this stuff to your LBS, particularly in the US, may get ya a 'YOYO'

You are ON YOUR Own....

[GregL]

I've been using this US company for my recent group purchases: https://www.eurobikeparts.com/. I've found their staff (not sure if it's more than one person...) to be knowledgeable and pleasant. On one order, they called me to verify the correct component configuration before shipping. On another order, they sent the wrong cables. When I called them, they were very helpful and apologetic. The correct cables were sent by Priority Mail immediately. I can't vouch for their status as an authorized Shimano retailer, but if you're willing to go the "gray market" route I find them to be a reasonable vendor.

Greg

[Jmj2323]

I was on PBK a few months ago and saw a complete DA Di2 9150 group for about $1700 shipped. Seemed to good to be true- compared to US pricing I got the cranks and brakes for free. It was after midnight in the U.S. I ordered it and then the next day went on to see what size cassette it came with and there was no way to even look at Shimano parts from the U.S. I thought I was scammed.

I got the parts in about 10 Days no issues. I came to find out later a lot of retailers allow sales in the middle of the night that may violate their agreements hoping it doesn’t get caught. Anyway, check some of these sites after hours and there may still be some deals.

[gomango]

It's not like Shimano is anything special anyway

Off road it is.

I've been riding with XT or XTR for decades now and it is bulletproof.

When I went to build my new Yeti SB5 plus with XT two years ago, it was an easy decision.

I had the shop I hang out at order it and build the bike. Easy peasy.

As for gravel rides/races, take the latest Almanzo for example. 80% of the riders were on Shimano and nearly the rest of them used a flavor of SRAM.

Zero Campy that I noticed. Maybe someone did and I missed it.

FWIW I have Campy Chorus on three of my road bikes and enjoy it, so I get that part of it.

I also use Campy SR on my vintage McLean Perfect Pleasure and it works fine.

[Yoshi]

I have heard that European dealers were selling and shipping Shimano to the USA for about the price dealers in the USA had to pay wholesale for.
So, one price for Americans and another, lower price for others. Kind of like prescription drugs.
Anyone confirm or refute this?

[Kirk007]

You are ON YOUR Own....

but are you also suggesting this would be the same if someone buys a full bike with components from Europe? How would a component manufacturer justify this - it would be akin to telling someone who lived in Europe, bought a bike in Europe, moved to the states, had a problem with the bike, took it to LBS and was told by LBS/USA rep of S or S or C - go fish! I have a hard time believing this would be done or hold up.

[Black Dog]

I have heard that European dealers were selling and shipping Shimano to the USA for about the price dealers in the USA had to pay wholesale for.
So, one price for Americans and another, lower price for others. Kind of like prescription drugs.
Anyone confirm or refute this?

True. Some LBS were paying more wholesale than the parts were selling for on the UK sites.

[oldpotatoe]

but are you also suggesting this would be the same if someone buys a full bike with components from Europe? How would a component manufacturer justify this - it would be akin to telling someone who lived in Europe, bought a bike in Europe, moved to the states, had a problem with the bike, took it to LBS and was told by LBS/USA rep of S or S or C - go fish! I have a hard time believing this would be done or hold up.

If you buy a bike and the RH shifter crumps, chances are they’ll want the whole bike. Do you think ‘bike’ makers DON’T buy more groups than bikes, at OE prices and resell in grey’ market? But I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if bike bought in Europe then brought to US, and ask for warranty with sales receipt in US seeing its European and be told, ‘sorry’...distribution of bikes in US and Europe completely separate.

[saab2000]

I got one of those sub-$400 105 groupsets about 3 years ago. I don't even remember which retailer but I want to say it was Ribble.

I'm not going to defend or condemn the model but clearly it was a bit fishy that they could deliver it to my door for less than a brick and mortar store can buy it for at their own cost. Something doesn't add up. It was around $380 for a full groupset delivered to my door in less than a week.

That said, the transaction was seamless, with exactly the right specced components. Everything was right, from the crank length to the compact size to the cassette size and color. No mix and match one could almost expect. It was a great transaction and the parts have been, bar none, the best value components I've ever had based on quality and durability and performance for the price.

[MikeD]

In the US we have middlemen like QBP that the LBS buys from and that inflates prices. Also, we have legal price fixing in the US where the manufacturer can dictate the minimum price their product can be sold for. That's illegal in the EU. That's why the prices of online US retailers like Jensen aren't all that low. Also, it's unreasonable to expect the LBS to discount components much. They have high overhead, buy from QBP, and can't take advantage of volume pricing. In short, consumers in the US take it in the shorts. It's also possible that Shimano charges more for stuff in the US than in the EU.

[Black Dog]

Merlin is still shipping Shimano to Canada.

[Yoshi]

It's also possible that Shimano charges more for stuff in the US than in the EU.
That's kinda what I was getting at. Wondering if Shimano is/was trying to beat Campy into the ground on price.

[acorn_user]

Campagnolo USA prices were always much higher than Euro prices, even in my LBS back in the UK.

[spinarelli]

PBK does the same with zipp Wheels being shipped to Canada.

[oldpotatoe]

1)In the US we have middlemen like QBP that the LBS buys from and that inflates prices.

2)Also, we have legal price fixing in the US where the manufacturer can dictate the minimum price their product can be sold for. That's illegal in the EU. That's why the prices of online US retailers like Jensen aren't all that low. Also, it's unreasonable to expect the LBS to discount components much. They have high overhead, buy from QBP, and can't take advantage of volume pricing.

3)In short, consumers in the US take it in the shorts.

4)It's also possible that Shimano charges more for stuff in the US than in the EU.

1)..'Inflate'? How about add a margin so that they can pay their fixed costs..no great conspiracy going on...QBP buys from manufacturer, divides 'cost' by about .30, .35..charges the LBS that.

2)Not true at all. If you buy a widget from QBP, you can resell it for anything you want BUT..when it comes time to re-order from QBP, they can refuse to sell to you because of reselling for a deep discount. BUT the LBS can sell for anything they wish. EU is MUCH different..they have contracts that say what they can resell for..Campagnolo tried to sue some reseller and LOST..

3) a little research into fixed costs, variable costs, the actual $ involved when using a parts distributor, foe ANY retail operation might be in order..NO great conspiracy between LBS/Distributors/manufacturers.

4) shimano is NOT a distributor nor a reseller of stuff..they don't charge anybody anything except for OE, frame makers and then the bike makers sell to distributors or direct.

[MikeD]

.

2)Not true at all. If you buy a widget from QBP, you can resell it for anything you want BUT..when it comes time to re-order from QBP, they can refuse to sell to you because of reselling for a deep discount. BUT the LBS can sell for anything they wish. EU is MUCH different..they have contracts that say what they can resell for..Campagnolo tried to sue some reseller and LOST..

4) shimano is NOT a distributor nor a reseller of stuff..they don't charge anybody anything except for OE, frame makers and then the bike makers sell to distributors or direct.

2) I was addressing MAP pricing here.

4) I read that Shimano can sell direct to bike shops. Not true?

[oldpotatoe]

2) I was addressing MAP pricing here.

4) I read that Shimano can sell direct to bike shops. Not true?

MAP pricing exists everywhere but in the US means just about nothing. There is no ‘price fixing’ via distributors in the US.

Well, been a few years since I was in the trenches but they weren’t a parts source in any way when I owned the shop. Warranty and tech info only.

[Mark McM]

MAP pricing exists everywhere but in the US means just about nothing. There is no ‘price fixing’ via distributors in the US.

Of course it's price fixing. It fits every definition of price fixing. It just happens to not be illegal (i.e. it slips through a legal loophole). But that doesn't mean it isn't price fixing.

[Hindmost]

Well, been a few years since I was in the trenches but they weren’t a parts source in any way when I owned the shop. Warranty and tech info only.

So the various groups,components, and parts on the open market are the result of "leakage" from the Shimano OEM supply chain?

[Famous Amos]

So the various groups,components, and parts on the open market are the result of "leakage" from the Shimano OEM supply chain?

Yes, if the "open market" is the Euro online sites selling new Shimano groups shipped at prices less than a shop can wholesale for.

Glad Shimano America stopped BSing everyone and saying that they had no ability to determine how Shimano Europe conduct's their OEM accounts' resale actions.

[FlashUNC]

Well, been a few years since I was in the trenches but they weren’t a parts source in any way when I owned the shop. Warranty and tech info only.

Last reorg I'd read about was 2014 when they cut back to just 6 distributors in the US, along with Shimano America direct for some stuff.

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2013/07/12/shimano-slash-number-north-american-distributors#.XPVwCdNKjBI

Not sure if there's been more changes, but the migration is clearly to taking this to a direct approach rather than through wholesale distributors.

[charliedid]

Shops can buy direct from Shimano. They even dropped prices last year to ease the pain of pricing disparity. It's approx 15% cheaper for most things than QBP if I recall. They ship from warehouses in both California and South Carolina.

The biggest issue is often product availability. It's all OEM to them and many see the move as more PR than anything. Customer service is horrid and just can't be bothered.

Bikes, what a business.

[oldpotatoe]

So the various groups,components, and parts on the open market are the result of "leakage" from the Shimano OEM supply chain?

A lot of it is. Spec-Ed buys 7000 ultegra groups, uses 6000 of them. Resells the rest. Been going on for years.

[longlist]

^^^^^^ i heard this is how the european countries sell it for so cheap, right? same kind of move.

[MikeD]

Is eBay a source for components that leak out of the OEM supply chain?

[dbh]

Is eBay a source for components that leak out of the OEM supply chain?

Most definitely. I see OEM Shimano groups on ebay all the time with prices pretty comparable to the big Euro dealers. Many of them seemed to be based in Hong Kong or Taiwan. I suspect that's where the bulk of the grey market groupset sales will migrate to.

[unterhausen]

Some of the U.K. shops are OEMs, they sell complete bikes.

[giordana93]

Shimano has been selling directly to shops for several years now. At wholesale prices above what UK retailers were asking. It's one reason the restrictions were put in place, both from abroad and on sites like AMZ.

[El Chaba]

The market is ingenious and as long as there is profit to be made product will find its way around protectionist policies and propped up prices. The one thing that Shimano and Campagnolo both could do is to take a cue from SRAM...That is make more problematic products that consumers will not touch from gray market sources because very few would be foolish enough to buy them without a warranty...

[oldpotatoe]

The market is ingenious and as long as there is profit to be made product will find its way around protectionist policies and propped up prices. The one thing that Shimano and Campagnolo both could do is to take a cue from SRAM...That is make more problematic products that consumers will not touch from gray market sources because very few would be foolish enough to buy them without a warranty...

I see what ya did there......:)

[MikeD]

The market is ingenious and as long as there is profit to be made product will find its way around protectionist policies and propped up prices. The one thing that Shimano and Campagnolo both could do is to take a cue from SRAM...That is make more problematic products that consumers will not touch from gray market sources because very few would be foolish enough to buy them without a warranty...


How does SRAM know the product is gray market?

[oldpotatoe]

How does SRAM know the product is gray market?

One way, others, I’m sure. Just conversations with consumer as to where they bought whatever.

https://www.sram.com/road/authentication-notice

[MikeD]

One way, others, I’m sure. Just conversations with consumer as to where they bought whatever.



https://www.sram.com/road/authentication-notice


Counterfeit product is not gray market.

The risk of buying product on eBay is getting a counterfeit part.

[oldpotatoe]

Counterfeit product is not gray market.

Poor example...all parts have a serial number that can be traced, was my point.
SRAM branded products with scratched off serial numbers are typically purchased from an unauthorized online retailer

[MikeD]

Poor example...all parts have a serial number that can be traced, was my point.


Traced to what? If SRAM keeps track of all the serial numbers that are US only, then maybe. I doubt they are that smart.

[oldpotatoe]

Traced to what? If SRAM keeps track of all the serial numbers that are US only, then maybe. I doubt they are that smart.

??sram is a lot of things but I’ll bet they have a pretty good idea of their proper distribution channels and those that aren’t....

Pretty easy to trace a serial number and it’s path thru the system.

[FlashUNC]

Traced to what? If SRAM keeps track of all the serial numbers that are US only, then maybe. I doubt they are that smart.

They only have 5 US distributors. Wouldn't be that to keep track of pipeline.

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2016/07/12/sram-trims-us-distributor-list-five#.XPfYiNNKiL4

[MikeD]

??sram is a lot of things but I’ll bet they have a pretty good idea of their proper distribution channels and those that aren’t....

Pretty easy to trace a serial number and it’s path thru the system.


Regardless, I could care less about the warranty unless it's an expensive item like a suspension component, maybe shifters and wheels. Warranty periods don't last long enough anyway. How many bike companies have crappy warranties? That doesn't keep people from buying their bikes.

[oldpotatoe]

Regardless, I could care less about the warranty unless it's an expensive item like a suspension component, maybe shifters and wheels. Warranty periods don't last long enough anyway. How many bike companies have crappy warranties? That doesn't keep people from buying their bikes.

I guess another point is that a consumer buys something, reads on the website ‘warranty’ and when discovered defective-no warranty cuz grey/black market...And how manufacturers are trying to control their distribution to keep consumers happy...if that gizmo breaks, often the manufacturer receives their ire, not the MO place.

[MikeD]

I guess another point is that a consumer buys something, reads on the website ‘warranty’ and when discovered defective-no warranty cuz grey/black market...And how manufacturers are trying to control their distribution to keep consumers happy...if that gizmo breaks, often the manufacturer receives their ire, not the MO place.


Who is the customer? The LBS or the end user? Forcing the end user to pay MSRP doesn't help the end user, kills competition that keeps consumer product costs down, and will ultimately end in less sales to the manufacturer. I used to buy lots of components, whether I really needed them or not, because prices were so good. Now I buy only what I need and put off upgrading.

[Hindmost]

Poor example...all parts have a serial number that can be traced, was my point.

There is forward traceability as in: we manufactured serial number XYZ and know it went to customer ABC. This is costly to do because of the complexity of distribution and record keeping. And there is reverse traceability where: you tell us you have serial number XYZ and I can go back and see that it was made in our factory on such and such a day with such and such a material. And this is a more practical traceability and it allows the manufacturer to respond to safety or quality issues.

[Mark McM]

I guess another point is that a consumer buys something, reads on the website ‘warranty’ and when discovered defective-no warranty cuz grey/black market...And how manufacturers are trying to control their distribution to keep consumers happy...if that gizmo breaks, often the manufacturer receives their ire, not the MO place.

In the photography business, grey market is an established part of retailing. Some retailers carry the same product in two versions - a US market version (often sold at MSRP), and a grey market version (typically sold at a much lower price) - and the customer can decide which they want to buy. Some larger retailers will provide their own warranty on grey market products.

[Mark McM]

Counterfeit product is not gray market.

The risk of buying product on eBay is getting a counterfeit part.

Yes, this SRAM web page appears to be intentionally misleading. It is true that a counterfeit part may not have the "quality, service, and performance" of a genuine SRAM part. But a part with a scratched off serial number is mostly likely not counterfeit (counterfeiters will often counterfeit the serial number as well), and will instead come from a non-authorized distribution channel. SRAM is well within their rights to protect their brand and distribution, but they shouldn't resort to fear-mongering.

[oldpotatoe]

Who is the customer? The LBS or the end user? Forcing the end user to pay MSRP doesn't help the end user, kills competition that keeps consumer product costs down, and will ultimately end in less sales to the manufacturer. I used to buy lots of components, whether I really needed them or not, because prices were so good. Now I buy only what I need and put off upgrading.

I’m confused, missing your ‘point’ and I’m a-tapping outta this one. Happy buying...:)

[MikeD]

https://www.bike-discount.de/ is no longer shipping Shimano products to the US.

[tony_mm]

https://www.bike-discount.de/ is no longer shipping Shimano products to the US.



Same for Bike24.de .

[unterhausen]

Who is the customer? The LBS or the end user? Forcing the end user to pay MSRP doesn't help the end user, kills competition that keeps consumer product costs down, and will ultimately end in less sales to the manufacturer. I used to buy lots of components, whether I really needed them or not, because prices were so good. Now I buy only what I need and put off upgrading.

There is certainly room for competition between brands at the MSRP level, that's the basis of the SCOTUS decision that allows for MAP pricing.

For all the discussion of how the internet is killing the LBS, most people still rely on their LBS to keep their bikes running. Shimano was hurting themselves with the LBS by offering an unfair price structure that meant the LBS could buy wholesale or save a little money and buy the same thing mail order. That's just ridiculous when it's under Shimano's control. And the LBS is definitely a customer, they can chose what to buy.

I'm not a buy-nothing hippie, but purchasing stuff that you don't need isn't that great of an idea. If nothing else, you might miss the opportunity to upgrade to 15 speed. And the number of people that hoard bike parts or new bikes is pretty small, I doubt this will hurt the parts manufacturers in any substantial way.