Damn you UPS/Bikeflights - Rant alert

[AngryScientist]

I knew i was going to be disappointed when Bikeflights swapped to UPS instead of FedEx for shipping.

I've been chasing a frame for a long time and finally found one from a great member here.

Bike was professionally packed by a shop and used Bikeflights to ship to me.

Problem #1, UPS is the slowest damned shipper on the planet. 10 days from shipment picked up to delivered to me from AZ. 10 days!!

Problem #2. See image below of how package arrived to me. Not home to check it out, but UPS driver tells my wife: "there may be some damage, another package fell on this one".

What the hell is that nonsense from a professional shipper? this is the way a box shows up?

Cant wait to go home and inspect contents. Hopefully the frame made it OK.

Anyway, Bikeflights will be getting my opinion of their swap to crappy UPS.

Sorry for the rant. I was pissed to get this picture texted to me this morning.

[bward1028]

It happens with FedEx too...

This got me a $600 payout from bikeflights.

[AngryScientist]

oof, that one is bad!

how does this happen? i wonder if drivers/handlers are held accountable for damage like this?

i get that crap happens sometimes, but come on!

[bianchi10]

Good lawrd! That's frustrating man. My buddy works for UPS and I've heard some horror stories about drivers and packages. Just like any company or business though as you companies hire mass amounts of employees. Some of them will take pride in their work, while others could give a crap and just want to get through the day and punch out without any care to their daily performance.

[bthornt]

Problem #2. See image below of how package arrived to me. Not home to check it out, but UPS driver tells my wife: "there may be some damage, another package fell on this one".

Forget to mention that the other package contained a running chain saw.

[bward1028]

oof, that one is bad!

how does this happen? i wonder if drivers/handlers are held accountable for damage like this?

i get that crap happens sometimes, but come on!

I shipped three bikes to sf when we moved here. All three were either damaged or lost. It was a blast. Package delivery in the Bay Area is universally terrible. Got a lot of money from bikeflights though.

[Matthew]

I wouldn't be able to wait. I'd have my wife open it and send me pics. I'm a sucker for punishment.

[zmalwo]

I shipped three bikes to sf when we moved here. All three were either damaged or lost. It was a blast. Package delivery in the Bay Area is universally terrible. Got a lot of money from bikeflights though.

Yes I'm guessing that you used USPS. I shipped a pair of wheels from NJ to SF it took 3 and half weeks to arrive. I almost lost the case on eBay and got my money taken away + buyer keeps the wheels. fun times.

[charliedid]

Shipping bikes is the worst. However, sometimes it's not the fault of the carrier but the stupid shop that continues to use boxes beyond their usefulness. Pay the extra and request a new box if worried about it. old flimsy boxes that have been used 3 times often don't survive well.

People problem.

[Ozz]

Good lawrd! That's frustrating man. My buddy works for UPS and I've heard some horror stories about drivers and packages. Just like any company or business though as you companies hire mass amounts of employees. Some of them will take pride in their work, while others could give a crap and just want to get through the day and punch out without any care to their daily performance.

I worked on a loading dock for a big shipping company for a couple months after I finished college....moving boxes/cargo from big trucks onto smaller ones for final delivery.

Interesting process, but their clear priority was speed and number of packages moved during a shift...

Sometimes you needed to use a forklift to pack the truck a little tighter to get more boxes in...just a "nudge" to push the packages together.;)

[crossjunkee]

Wow, that's pretty bad. What a bummer to wait patiently for a frame you've been on the hunt for, only to end like that!

[oldturd]

I recently used (2 weeks ago, so with UPS) Bikeflights to ship a frame from WA to CA. It was quick and on time, and no damages to the box on delivery.

My thoughts on this mirror charliedid's thoughts however..

When I shipped my frame, I was fortunate enough that I had a used once, frame set box which had an interior cardboard skeleton to reinforce the shape. The thing was very structurally sound.

On the flip side, I've had a frame shipped to me where it was stuffed with newspapers and the like which I can imagine is more susceptible to overall box damages...

[azrider]

Yep I used to be a HUGE advocate of BikeFlights but the three times I've used them since they switched to UPS have all been horrible experiences.

Prices are higher, shipping times are much slower, and of the three I had to file claim with one and ALMOST did with another.

UPS stores are the worst also. It's typically manned by one person and they're completely overwhelmed and it's way less convenient compared to FedEx stores. Gone are the days FedEx would just scan from my phone or let me email them the label.

This last time I went to UPS store I sat in line for 15 minutes THEN instead of scanning my phone for label, they made me rent one of their computers and print labels for them.

[Bradford]

My last client had a large wholesale business with 500k sq ft warehouse. For important oversize shipments, they would build custom boxes out of wood for shipping. I saw pictures customers sent of these boxes crushed and reduced to splinters. It was astonishing what could happen during shipping. And that was wood, so I'm not surprised anymore about what can happen to cardboard.

On the plus side, when I was done with that project and shipped my travel frame back, it only cost me $10.50 to ship it using their discount. I brought the wheels home with me on the plane in an S&S case, but would have just shipped the whole bike if i understood how cheap shipping is when you have that kind of volume.

[AngryScientist]

grumble - i'm getting anxious to go check things out.

[572cv]

My son reports to me that someone he knows labels important and delicate computer parts shipments with the warning: “LIVE BEES”.

Sorry to hear of this, Angry, nonetheless.

[William]

My son reports to me that someone he knows labels important and delicate computer parts shipments with the warning: “LIVE BEES”.





Don't drop that box!!!
:banana::banana:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU97w2DH5mc



Sorry to hear of this, Angry, nonetheless.

Agree, sorry Nick.





W.

[Ken Robb]

All the storms across the country may be causing lots of shipping delays.

[bward1028]

Yes I'm guessing that you used USPS. I shipped a pair of wheels from NJ to SF it took 3 and half weeks to arrive. I almost lost the case on eBay and got my money taken away + buyer keeps the wheels. fun times.

No, I actually used bikeflights every time.

[R3awak3n]

seriously it does not matter UPS, fedEx same crap.

I just had my kitchen redone and we ordered floor tiles. As I was talking to the FedEx guy he is telling me how the package is so noisy and he throws it on the floor right in front of me. I say, those are tiles. He says, oh yeah they don't pack those well and throws another one from the hip right into the floor.

[Tony T]

They need put a picture of a TV on the box:
https://www.bicycling.com/news/a20027122/vanmoof-tv-on-box-damaged-bikes/

[Matt-H]

Rant justified! Hope the frame is ok.

[Keith A]

So sorry Nick...hopefully the frame survived better than the box. BTW, what's in the box?

FedEx employees throwing boxes in their truck...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq_jkUVgrc0

More box tossing...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM3SRG7D21Y

USPS guy gets in on it too...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0VCEmNsVVs

[Elefantino]

The bikes on the UPS truck would often be stacked sideways, lying flat instead of upright *as the box insists* and despite numerous attempts at working with the local warehouse manager they kept coming stacked sideways. We had to get corporate involved.

I asked our driver why the loaders didn't follow instructions and he said, "they usually don't read what it says on the box." Ouch!

[zzy]

At least it's still backed by Bikeflights customer service. Making claims thru UPS is a total nightmare.

[vqdriver]

i've had similar experiences with wheelboxes. i stopped buying/selling wheels unless they're local deals. the spokes just do NOT like sideways forces.
regardless of carrier btw, fedex is not immune.

[SlowPokePete]

Looks like the UPS driver ran that thing over with the truck.

Anxiously hoping to hear that the contents are ok...

SPP

[ravdg316]

I've had multiple insurance payouts with Bikeflights under Fedex. Looks like business as usual, but sucks about your frame! Hopefully all's good.

[Tony]

i've had similar experiences with wheelboxes. i stopped buying/selling wheels unless they're local deals. the spokes just do NOT like sideways forces.
regardless of carrier btw, fedex is not immune.

Same, several times.
Seeing a package you've been waiting for arrive like Angry's always sucks!

[beeatnik]

Shipping bikes is the worst. However, sometimes it's not the fault of the carrier but the stupid shop that continues to use boxes beyond their usefulness. Pay the extra and request a new box if worried about it. old flimsy boxes that have been used 3 times often don't survive well.

People problem.

This.

On a related note, the most expensive bikas or wheels I've picked up on the Pacelines had the most casual "packaging." Makes me want to buy one of those Speedzbaggens. :banana::bike::fight:

[ultraman6970]

Box is going to suffer if the packaging is not going above and beyond. Some guys just dump the stuff in the box and close it.

Other ones just use foam, polystyrene blocks to keep the box in shape, etc etc to the point that there is no way in hell the content is going to be moving. Once you get that level of 2 or 3 hours wasted of packing, you can be satisfied with it, those are my standards packing bikes...but clearly there's standards and standards to pack a bike...

Advice... Take an extra day to ship but get the packing right and nobody will be sweating because there is a slight chance to find "that" email in your inbox.

I been lucky too, a bike packed really bad and the box had 4 holes in it, not a single scratch but darn I got scared...

[unterhausen]

I am always anxious when I ship something. I try to make sure the box can't be crushed. It's not easy though

[Tony]

Take this opportunity to say if anyone here is buying from me I pack really well. Sometimes using armor inside or even sewing an item/frame in a box inside of a box, just saying :)

[pdmtong]

One pro tip is to electrical tape the plastic hub protectors to each other so they do not accidentally fall off and punch through the box. Of course this would not have helped Angry.

If the item is insured with Bikeflights isnt the claim with BF? I know with shipbikes the claim is through Fedex.

[zzy]

The real issue is that bike/wheel boxes are always stacked flat, which is very bad when heavy things get stacked on top. I always ship bikes with 'this end up' warnings. Still they are usually ignored because those guy have to handle so many packages. The only defense is to 'UPS proof' the box as much as possible by having no exposed paint and internal box reinforcements, as well as dropout blocks and removing the rear mech.

[pdmtong]

The real issue is that bike/wheel boxes are always stacked flat, which is very bad when heavy things get stacked on top. I always ship bikes with 'this end up' warnings. Still they are usually ignored because those guy have to handle so many packages. The only defense is to 'UPS proof' the box as much as possible by having no exposed paint and internal box reinforcements, as well as dropout blocks and removing the rear mech.

yup...when I got my lugged steel from the builder it arrived wire tied to a cardboard insert in the box. had it been stacked like Angry's there is no way it survives

https://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=88875&stc=1&d=1324354068
https://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=88874&stc=1&d=1324354033

[noonan1970]

with my last two shipments to shipbikes.com


I wasn't going to switch but when Bikeflighs never responded to two emails I sent them, I switched.

They use Fed Ex and even seemed cheaper than Bikeflights!

[pbarry]

with my last two shipments to shipbikes.com


I wasn't going to switch but when Bikeflighs never responded to two emails I sent them, I switched.

They use Fed Ex and even seemed cheaper than Bikeflights!

Shipped some wheels recently with shipbikes, and no $5 fee for residential delivery. :)

[charliedid]

One pro tip is to electrical tape the plastic hub protectors to each other so they do not accidentally fall off and punch through the box. Of course this would not have helped Angry.

If the item is insured with Bikeflights isnt the claim with BF? I know with shipbikes the claim is through Fedex.

Yep

We also used to making bracing out of cardboard boxes cardboard tubes or chunks of foam so boxes would not crush as easily. The clamshell boxes with the extra sheet are the best. the extra ten minutes makes a real difference. Nothing better than getting a customers bike shipped home from another shop done proper and with care. The opposite is the worst.

[pdmtong]

Yep

We also used to making bracing out of cardboard boxes cardboard tubes or chunks of foam so boxes would not crush as easily. The clamshell boxes with the extra sheet are the best. the extra ten minutes makes a real difference. Nothing better than getting a customers bike shipped home from another shop done proper and with care. The opposite is the worst.

chapeau...why didn't I think of that? answer: I've only shipped one frame in my life and for that I bubbled and foamed it "to the max".

ryun once sent me a frame. took 30 minutes to unwrap it. very Pro.

[cardcatalog]

Rivendell has a great video on packing a bike. Making supports out of cardboard is something I always do now.

The good bits are at 2:20 or so: https://vimeo.com/133708979

[shinomaster]

If people actually knew how to pack boxes, this wouldn't happen as often. I packed and shipped really expensive and fragile artwork ( glass, ceramics etc. for 20 years with one incidence of damage, maybe two.. It's how you pack it, not how it was sent (usually). Being "professionally packed by a shop" really doesn't mean that much, if they use a ****ty, beat up, reused box with little structural integrity, and if they don't know what they're doing.

[CSTRider]

BOMBER Riv instructions on packing a frame - thanks for posting!

[Dino Suegiù]

No, sorry, but it really is not (or rather, should not be):
"Damn you UPS/Bikeflights".
It happens with every shipper and every handler, so it really should be:
"Damn you, incompetent and/or lazy packer."

I received a crankset, shipped from AUS, AUS Post to USPS, in one of those Tyvek bags, nothing else. Of course the thing was damaged beyond repair.
I have received c-f handlebars, etc, shipped from the UK, whoever they used to UPS, in a thin, oversized cardboard box, with no peanuts, bubble wrap, etc. Nothing else. Of course they arrived damaged.
I have received damaged boxes from DHL.
I have received items from people on cycling forums (people I thought could be trusted) with embarrassingly bad, really cheap-o/fast/don't give a damn "packing". Disrespectful and kind of sickening, really
Etc.


For shipping, when I have sold a frame or bicycle (and music eqpt twice), I have used BikeFlights (FedEx and UPS) and have shipped to several countries, with not a single problem, ever. Knock on wood.

But I prep like a fiend, not like some lazy person who doesn't respect others.
I double-box;
securely strap the frame/fork/etc to the inner box, no movement;
reinforce the box with several heavy duty cardboard tubes (the kind that big rolls of paper come on, about 4" diameter) cut to size and placed in good positions as "bridging" so the box never will be crushed, helps also secure the frame;
photograph every step;
seal really securely;
insist on fully insured, signed delivery.

I pack like I expect gorillas learning to drive tanks to handle the boxes, not because I think that couriers are in fact gorillas, but because the buyer deserves that care and professionalism even if the couriers are expert at handling Ming vases or whatever.

Don't always blame the shipper/broker.

[Louis]

A frame and fork I shipped to Australia a while back (in a box, of course):

I also put stuff inside each of the main open areas to prevent crushing of the sides of the box.

[pakora]

I haven't used bikeflights, but I had 4 bikes shipped cross country when I moved for work by getting rid of everything I owned except 4 boxes and 4 bikes. 2 bikes of trivial value but irreplaceable because of sizes/types no longer produced, 2 actually expensively replaceable something.

I paid for insurance ull replacement value of each (which totaled like $9000 by the shop estimate) and had them packaged by a shop who used them as their exclusive shipper because they sponsored my team. This cost ~$900, plus the cost of them packing the bikes.

Impact: the cheapest, most replaceable bike arrived with a pristine box and an bent dropout making the bike unrideble. 25$ repair. The least replaceable bike arrived with a crushed box side and a hole and a huge (1.5" diameter) paint chip in the Columbus Spirit top tube. They paid out $3700 for a replacement value of $4600. why $3700? idk. It took 3 calls fraught to Fedex to get an agent that got sporting equipment damage and how a dent in the middle of the top tube is not cosmetic.

But it came. FedEx ground where this shop had an exclusvie FedEx deal thing.

[Hilltopperny]

Had a similar experience today with bikeflights/UPS. Cosmic Carbone Ultimates came is a presmashed box that looked to have been thrown back together by the driver who ran to his truck and threw the package in the breezeway of my home. The front wheel is cracked at the brake track with multiple fraying and delaminated front spokes and the rear wheel at the very least was knocked out of true.

I have used bikeflights well over 100 times and only had a seat tube lug bend once during transport with FedEx. UPS is 0 for 1 so far...

The last couple of pictures show what the box labeled with fragile looked like after I pulled the wheels out that were literally just banging around off of each other. Popped air bags, miscellaneous bubble wrap and tape were all buried underneath the wheels. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190531/808ea216715a817da6f4d23f3c8559fa.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190531/a7abe760914ff3a15ed0ab83fb7dbf6f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190531/637fcfd6d7f6b09d0a576127f804d6e4.jpg

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190531/10d023d2cc42604ccdc5cd41548cf79c.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190531/f8bdcd3cf9317e3701df4991dbd1af76.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

i've had similar experiences with wheelboxes. i stopped buying/selling wheels unless they're local deals. the spokes just do NOT like sideways forces.
regardless of carrier btw, fedex is not immune.

Because of FedEx smashing the "2 wheels inna box", type shipment, I now get single wheel boxes and aggressively tape them together...with LOTS of cardboard inside around axles, ton o' paper..

For Angry.....talk to BikeFlights, NOT UPS, they will take care of you.

BUT, we are at the mercy of the shipping companies(FedEx, UPS, USPS)...and yup, they do some really crappy jobs BUT, I applaud BikeFlights for the 2 claims I had..after FedEx automatically refused coverage on the first..I had $ in my hand almost immediately after sending the pix..

What can those of us who ship do? As has been mentioned, OVERPACK to the extreme..and yup, even then, there will be claims.

When in the shop, FedEx delivered a Trico case, crushed, with truck tire marks on it..Calfee inside was destroyed..the driver kinda gave the thousand yard stare..." call FedEx'...

[AngryScientist]

Great News!

Frame + Fork were found to be perfectly damage free.

The bike shop who packed the frame did an excellent job of using foam insulation and cardboard around the actual frame, so it was spared any damage. Even the small FD clamp that was included was thoughtfully taped to the inside of the box so it didnt get lost with that gaping hole in the box.

relieved :hello:

[Hilltopperny]

Great News!



Frame + Fork were found to be perfectly damage free.



The bike shop who packed the frame did an excellent job of using foam insulation and cardboard around the actual frame, so it was spared any damage. Even the small FD clamp that was included was thoughtfully taped to the inside of the box so it didnt get lost with that gaping hole in the box.



relieved :hello:Glad to hear it wasn't damaged! So what did you end picking up?

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

[AngryScientist]

So what did you end picking up?


https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=2547253#post2547253

[Hilltopperny]

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=2547253#post2547253Nice!

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

[pbarry]

Hoorah for you, Nick! That must have been a long afternoon..

[charliedid]

Glad to hear. Which brings up another truth, that looks can be deceiving. A smashed box is sometimes just a smashed box.

Ride on.

[charliedid]

[QUOTE=Hilltopperny;2547222]Had a similar experience today with bikeflights/UPS. Cosmic Carbone Ultimates came is a presmashed box that looked to have been thrown back together by the driver who ran to his truck and threw the package in the breezeway of my home. The front wheel is cracked at the brake track with multiple fraying and delaminated front spokes and the rear wheel at the very least was knocked out of true.

I have used bikeflights well over 100 times and only had a seat tube lug bend once during transport with FedEx. UPS is 0 for 1 so far...

The last couple of pictures show what the box labeled with fragile looked like after I pulled the wheels out that were literally just banging around off of each other. Popped air bags, miscellaneous bubble wrap and tape were all buried underneath the wheels.

Well over 100 times! Do your bikes get to board early and always have a table in the VIP lounge before each flight? :p

[eddief]

shows mt. bike but nearly all applies to all bikes:

https://support.theproscloset.com/article/7-how-to-pack-a-return-bike

[pdmtong]

Rivendell has a great video on packing a bike. Making supports out of cardboard is something I always do now.
The good bits are at 2:20 or so: https://vimeo.com/133708979

Thanks for posting this - always great to see other approaches especially how the box is laterally stiffened

Moots ships frames so they "float" inside the box held on the ends at the dropouts and the headtube.

[ibis]

When I worked for LOOK Cycle, we used to ship 695 framesets in two boxes, one inside another. They were also very protected with extra dense foam with further cardboard sleeves around every tube. Then the frame was placed in a frame bag. We rarely had issues with damage, but occasionally it would happen.

When shipping a used frame it might be worth a little extra weight to double box. Better to spend a little more on shipping than to be disappointed with a smashed frame/fork. Granted this is much easier to do with medium or smaller frames. You can always cut up a second bike box and slide in extra walls around the frame though.

If you can get your hands on the plastic drop out inserts, they are a must have.

[donevwil]

Today's contribution, not BikeFlights, not UPS, but DHL and (most likely offender) USPS. Don't know if I have the energy to have my day ruined.

16979799851697979986

[AngryScientist]

oh man, that one is really bad. it almost looks like they ran it through some sort of compactor or something. what the hell?

i get that stuff happens, but why is this so common, and apparently acceptable?

i bet a very significant cost of shipping stuff is to offset claims for damaged goods. ugh.

better open a beer or three before getting into that one.

[Dino Suegiù]

Today's contribution, not BikeFlights, not UPS, but DHL and (most likely offender) USPS. Don't know if I have the energy to have my day ruined.

16979799851697979986
Again, that seems more like the packer's fault than the couriers'. Certainly the packer is not free of blame.

Packing is becoming worse and worse. Sellers even offer the choice now of "Would you like us to ship in a re-used box?" as if that makes the buyer somehow that much more "eco-friendly". Third-/fourth-party (even private individuals, like Uber types) handlers employed by all the big couriers. Anything to save a buck.

But, the buyers want to save a buck too.

It just seems a bit contradictory to expect white-glove shipping treatment for bargain-shop shipping costs.

[SpokeValley]

Rivendell has a great video on packing a bike. Making supports out of cardboard is something I always do now.

The good bits are at 2:20 or so: https://vimeo.com/133708979

Great vid and that frame is just about bullet proof in that box.

Just a note, he's using cohesive bubble wrap, which sticks to itself. Much easier to use than the non adhesive stuff. A bit more expensive but worth it.

And the corrugated inserts are double wall, like two sheets glued together.

(I used to sell packaging. )

:)

[pdonk]

Seeing these pics and hearing these horror stories, glad my SV had only a small wheel axle punch in the box.

Packing on it was very simple and not as much as I expected, fork and frame spreaders, some light bubble wrap and a piece of carboard separating the wheels from the frame.

[donevwil]

oh man, that one is really bad. it almost looks like they ran it through some sort of compactor or something. what the hell?

i get that stuff happens, but why is this so common, and apparently acceptable?

i bet a very significant cost of shipping stuff is to offset claims for damaged goods. ugh.

better open a beer or three before getting into that one.

I have a friend (a strong cyclist) who works at UPS, the edict is volume delivered is paramount, everything else is secondary to the extent that damage and claims, even negative image and reviews for that matter, are acceptable.

+1 on the beer rec, unfortunately I'm quite impatient and still have much of Friday to file a claim if needed.

Again, that seems more like the packer's fault than the couriers'. Certainly the packer is not free of blame....

In this case it came from a shop in Germany and the owner sent me a multitude of pics of the packing process. Appears one end of the box was ripped off and all the internal bracing, compression members "fell" out.

Fortunately frameset was well "insulated" and it evidently takes more than USPS to damage vintage Columbus tubing.

1697979988 1697979989

[charliedid]

I have a friend (a strong cyclist) who works at UPS, the edict is volume delivered is paramount, everything else is secondary to the extent that damage and claims, even negative image and reviews for that matter, are acceptable.

+1 on the beer rec, unfortunately I'm quite impatient and still have much of Friday to file a claim if needed.



In this case it came from a shop in Germany and the owner sent me a multitude of pics of the packing process. Appears one end of the box was ripped off and all the internal bracing, compression members "fell" out.

Fortunately frameset was well "insulated" and it evidently takes more than USPS to damage vintage Columbus tubing.

1697979988 1697979989

Like

[longlist]

I have a frame set that is lost. The seller said they dropped it off at the ups store. the driver said he never picked it up. no one knows where its at. shipped by bike flights. the store is saying they aren't responsible for it cause the seller dropped it off and didn't get a receipt for the drop off. ups is saying they aren't responsible for it and the ups store is an independently owned operation. so its lost and no one is claiming responsibility. at least with fedex you could drop things off at a fedex owned store. no legal limbo to hide in.

[pdmtong]

I have a frame set that is lost. The seller said they dropped it off at the ups store. the driver said he never picked it up. no one knows where its at. shipped by bike flights. the store is saying they aren't responsible for it cause the seller dropped it off and didn't get a receipt for the drop off. ups is saying they aren't responsible for it and the ups store is an independently owned operation. so its lost and no one is claiming responsibility. at least with fedex you could drop things off at a fedex owned store. no legal limbo to hide in.

dumb seller. no proof he entered it into the system. always take pictures. before. during packing. when packed. always get a drop off receipt.

[Dino Suegiù]

+1 on the beer rec, unfortunately I'm quite impatient and still have much of Friday to file a claim if needed.

In this case it came from a shop in Germany and the owner sent me a multitude of pics of the packing process. Appears one end of the box was ripped off and all the internal bracing, compression members "fell" out.

Fortunately frameset was well "insulated" and it evidently takes more than USPS to damage vintage Columbus tubing.
Then the box was not adequately sealed/protected and the internal bracing was not adequately installed/affixed, right?

The protection of the frame-set itself is not the primary issue (they did a good job there, most sellers do; many even over-do that part); the strength of the container is the issue. The structural stabilization of the box, reducing an open volume of ~48" x 32" down to much smaller, braced sectors, is the only solution. That is the part many sellers/packers skimp on for some reason. It is strange, because it is really the easiest step in the entire packing process.

But, thankfully your Merckx arrived perfectly intact so now it is time for your :beer:

[longlist]

dumb seller. no proof he entered it into the system. always take pictures. before. during packing. when packed. always get a drop off receipt.

he sent me pictures. he told me the line was long and one person behind the counter. he asked to see the video of the lobby area and they refused to show it to him. sounds like someone stole it. but ups and the ups store aren't taking responsibility so no money returned.

[donevwil]

Then the box was not adequately sealed/protected and the internal bracing was not adequately installed/affixed, right?

The protection of the frame-set itself is not the primary issue (they did a good job there, most sellers do; many even over-do that part); the strength of the container is the issue. The structural stabilization of the box, reducing an open volume of ~48" x 32" down to much smaller, braced sectors, is the only solution. That is the part many sellers/packers skimp on for some reason. It is strange, because it is really the easiest step in the entire packing process.

But, thankfully your Merckx arrived perfectly intact so now it is time for your :beer:

I absolutely agree (should have written so earlier). When I pack a frame I always focus on the construction, layout and retention of the compression members, plus I use a double walled box or one with much heavier gauge than this one.

[pdmtong]

Then the box was not adequately sealed/protected and the internal bracing was not adequately installed/affixed, right?

The protection of the frame-set itself is not the primary issue (they did a good job there, most sellers do; many even over-do that part); the strength of the container is the issue. The structural stabilization of the box, reducing an open volume of ~48" x 32" down to much smaller, braced sectors, is the only solution. That is the part many sellers/packers skimp on for some reason. It is strange, because it is really the easiest step in the entire packing process.

But, thankfully your Merckx arrived perfectly intact so now it is time for your :beer:

well said - great point

[ibis]

Oh man...this thread comes at a bad time for me...or perhaps a good time.

[glepore]

Had a similar experience today with bikeflights/UPS. Cosmic Carbone Ultimates came is a presmashed box that looked to have been thrown back together by the driver who ran to his truck and threw the package in the breezeway of my home. The front wheel is cracked at the brake track with multiple fraying and delaminated front spokes and the rear wheel at the very least was knocked out of true.

I have used bikeflights well over 100 times and only had a seat tube lug bend once during transport with FedEx. UPS is 0 for 1 so far...



Man, that sucks. As I told you in a pm, if Bikeflights doesn't make good on that, I will. In retrospect I should have put the wheels in a padded wheelbag - have a lightweight one that I'll likely never use- but my experience has been pretty good with Bikeflights in the past. The driver at my end is a good guy, so it likely happened in processing.

[mdeth1313]

Funny I was reading this and then this got delivered today. UPS had it for less than 24 hours and they managed to kill it. Fortunately, the worst of it was the small scratch on the front wheel.

[charliedid]

Funny I was reading this and then this got delivered today. UPS had it for less than 24 hours and they managed to kill it. Fortunately, the worst of it was the small scratch on the front wheel.

Ugh

You got lucky. That came from a shop? Terrible packing job in a (really cheap) box that should not have been used IMO. Did you check the hanger alignment yet? That crank had no protection?

People need to start documenting every step of the process from packing to opening. It all starts with a proper/professional packing job and a high quality box.

What's the bike BTW? :)

Edit: FOCUS maybe?

[unterhausen]

I think I do a fairly good job of packing, but seeing some of the boxes in this thread makes me want to make sure all the packing stays together even if the box is destroyed. The one in the previous post was packing malpractice in my view. I know that bike companies pack similarly, but an individual should put more work into packing than that.

[Hilltopperny]

I have everything I send out packed and shipped by my LBS. I have only had two instances where a new guy packed a groupset and one time a seatpost lug had a little bend. Other than those two isolated incidents I've shipped lots of bikes and parts through them successfully. It is good peace of mind.

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

[charliedid]

I think I do a fairly good job of packing, but seeing some of the boxes in this thread makes me want to make sure all the packing stays together even if the box is destroyed. The one in the previous post was packing malpractice in my view. I know that bike companies pack similarly, but an individual should put more work into packing than that.

True

The bike companies, even if using low quality boxes are at least packed right in a new, low quality box good for one maybe two shipments in good hands. One of the things that also happens is that boxes get stored and bounced around in shops in ways that reduces their structural integrity to a very large degree.

If everything is as good as can be before the shipper picks it up you stand a much greater chance of success.

Back in the day we used to always suggest people choose 3 day shipping vs ground as a further insurance policy. The theory being that the bikes spent more time in the air than in trucks. It seemed to be a good rule.

[Dino Suegiù]

I absolutely agree (should have written so earlier). When I pack a frame I always focus on the construction, layout and retention of the compression members, plus I use a double walled box or one with much heavier gauge than this one.

Thank you. I agree.

Years ago I had made a kind of small guide to packing bicycles, cribbed from when I worked with an art shipper, and decided to update it yesterday as a result of this thread. I used the photo of your wrapped bicycle; I hope that is OK.

I cannot figure out how to attach the .pdf booklet here, but people can make one from these images, and then use it or even send it (politely!) to potential sellers/packers. It might help to have a bike or frame arrive not smashed and, more important, not ship one out that could get smashed.

Many packers use this method or similar, so I thought it could be useful to share this here. This is a home-shop/small-timer variation, done with materials that are found easily. The goal is to reinforce the outer box by creating much smaller unsupported areas, like a honeycomb; to use that bridging reinforcement to also keep the frame-set, etc. from moving around at all; and to have the bicycle (tied onto the "insert sheet") be very easily inserted and removed from the outer box. I always cut two hand holes on the top fold of the insert so that people can easily pull it out once they open the outer box.



https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47983414068_9ca1b7c17c_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47983416127_de21480e90_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47983414033_1fb161a495_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47983462721_6521e79f03_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47983590218_2a0a8559ab_b.jpg

[Dino Suegiù]

P.S.:
It might be nice if someone could change the title a bit by removing or modifying the UPS/BikeFlights-specific damnation, since the bicycle in question apparently arrived safe and sound?

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2547245&postcount=49

Maybe to just a more generic complaint about shipping in general, what to avoid, etc., since in response to the first post there are actually lots of helpful, more positive replies.

[YoKev]

You get a gold star Dino

[charliedid]

You get a gold star Dino

Two gold stars

[unterhausen]

I was going to recycle some shipping tubes, but now I think I'll keep them.

[charliedid]

Waterford (maybe others) do an interesting thing by scoring the inner cardboard sheet and creating a Z where it sits inside the box at a 45 degree angle. The frame is suspended in between. Very effective and few components.

It doesn't have to be so bad...

:)

[AngryScientist]

P.S.:
It might be nice if someone could change the title a bit by removing or modifying the UPS/BikeFlights-specific damnation, since the bicycle in question apparently arrived safe and sound?
.

Nope.

While I do concur that it is the seller's responsibility to pack a shipment well, i reject the premise that the courier has little or no responsibility to care for the package reasonably well.

In my case, even though the contents were intact, the box was completely ripped open and crushed. this is NOT a reasonable way to care for a package in the hands of a professional shipper. Further, the driver didnt care and fluffed it off. IMO, so indeed - damn you UPS.

With regard to bikeflights - yup, still annoyed they switched to UPS, for my personal situation, Fedex ships much faster and they have a local store a few minutes from my house, so it's WAY easier to have signature req'd packages held there.

[oldpotatoe]

Nope.

While I do concur that it is the seller's responsibility to pack a shipment well, i reject the premise that the courier has little or no responsibility to care for the package reasonably well.

In my case, even though the contents were intact, the box was completely ripped open and crushed. this is NOT a reasonable way to care for a package in the hands of a professional shipper. Further, the driver didnt care and fluffed it off. IMO, so indeed - damn you UPS.

With regard to bikeflights - yup, still annoyed they switched to UPS, for my personal situation, Fedex ships much faster and they have a local store a few minutes from my house, so it's WAY easier to have signature req'd packages held there.

Even tho the frame was OK, I'd still send the pix, etc to this person below..he/she really does seem to GAS...

support@bikeflights.com

Gordon or Cynthia

[tbike4]

UPS only exists on my radar because it it used by my employer. Friday before Memorial day weekend I was expecting a package, tracking said it would come to me that day. Friday morning the tracking says- wait, it won't be delivered today due to the holiday so I get to wait 4 more days until Tuesday. I call, they say sorry. Hmmm... The holiday was Monday the 27th not Friday the 24th. Go figure.

[dave thompson]

I was going to recycle some shipping tubes, but now I think I'll keep them.

A great source of tubes to reinforce shipping boxes is fabric stores. Fabric comes on sturdy cardboard tubes, which the stores will cheerfully give you.

[yinzerniner]

A great source of tubes to reinforce shipping boxes is fabric stores. Fabric comes on sturdy cardboard tubes, which the stores will cheerfully give you.

Another alternative to shipping tubes is the triangular shipping tubes from UPS or FedEx which are shipped flat. You fold them up and they are very very sturdy, and you can cut them to the proper length as the adhesive strip they use is incredibly strong. They ship free as supplies if you order them.

[simonov]

A great source of tubes to reinforce shipping boxes is fabric stores. Fabric comes on sturdy cardboard tubes, which the stores will cheerfully give you.

Another alternative to shipping tubes is the triangular shipping tubes from UPS or FedEx which are shipped flat. You fold them up and they are very very sturdy, and you can cut them to the proper length as the adhesive strip they use is incredibly strong. They ship free as supplies if you order them.

A couple of solid tips right here.

[weisan]

Angry pal, I am glad it all turned out ok...but when I first saw this thread, my initial thought was..."there goes any chance of having a positive thought Friday this week." :rolleyes:

:p

[Black Dog]

Thank you. I agree.

Years ago I had made a kind of small guide to packing bicycles, cribbed from when I worked with an art shipper, and decided to update it yesterday as a result of this thread. I used the photo of your wrapped bicycle; I hope that is OK.

I cannot figure out how to attach the .pdf booklet here, but people can make one from these images, and then use it or even send it (politely!) to potential sellers/packers. It might help to have a bike or frame arrive not smashed and, more important, not ship one out that could get smashed.

Many packers use this method or similar, so I thought it could be useful to share this here. This is a home-shop/small-timer variation, done with materials that are found easily. The goal is to reinforce the outer box by creating much smaller unsupported areas, like a honeycomb; to use that bridging reinforcement to also keep the frame-set, etc. from moving around at all; and to have the bicycle (tied onto the "insert sheet") be very easily inserted and removed from the outer box. I always cut two hand holes on the top fold of the insert so that people can easily pull it out once they open the outer box.

A PDF would be great. To attach it you need to click on the paperclip icon to the right of the smiley face icon at the top of the text window when you are creating a post. It will open a window that will allow you to choose the file form your computer and upload it. Once uploaded you can close the pop up window and click post. If you are having trouble PM me and you can email me the file and I will post it for you. Great work on the document BTW. :)

[cmbicycles]

I got a bike frame Friday that was inside a bubble wrap bag, not even taped closed, dropped in a frame box, dropped in a bike box. It survived a trip across the pond, but both dropout screws were bent and a bit more paint wear than expected. In my case Im glad the damage was minor, but it should have been prevented.

[Dino Suegiù]

Nope.

While I do concur that it is the seller's responsibility to pack a shipment well, i reject the premise that the courier has little or no responsibility to care for the package reasonably well.

Well that premise is definitely not my premise, nor probably that of most people, and that is not at all what I wrote or even implied anywhere. It is a mis-characterization actually.

Un-reinforced cheap packaging is obviously weaker, regardless of how any courier handles it, while better packing obviously helps the couriers do their job better. Your box would have arrived more intact had the packing been better, the box more reinforced, end of story.

I would never ship a bicycle box un-reinforced, as so many seem to do, and then expect it to arrive unscathed, or then blame the courier for all damages. But to each their own of course, and in any case at least your bicycle arrived undamaged.

[Dino Suegiù]

A great source of tubes to reinforce shipping boxes is fabric stores. Fabric comes on sturdy cardboard tubes, which the stores will cheerfully give you.

Another alternative to shipping tubes is the triangular shipping tubes from UPS or FedEx which are shipped flat. You fold them up and they are very very sturdy, and you can cut them to the proper length as the adhesive strip they use is incredibly strong. They ship free as supplies if you order them.

Those are two excellent suggestions, thanks.

Another source (for the tubes) are shops and graphics houses (even places like Kinko) that sell or use paper on rolls; they usually have a bunch of tubes they are throwing out. Also, like the fabric stores, carpet/rug stores.

[dave thompson]

Those are two excellent suggestions, thanks.

Another source (for the tubes) are shops and graphics houses (even places like Kinko) that sell or use paper on rolls; they usually have a bunch of tubes they are throwing out. Also, like the fabric stores, carpet/rug stores.

Unfortunately I've found carpet and rug stores are like used car lots, at least around here, they want to charge money for those tubes.

Fabric stores on the other hand: "How many would you like sweetie?"

[slowpoke]

P.S.:
It might be nice if someone could change the title a bit by removing or modifying the UPS/BikeFlights-specific damnation, since the bicycle in question apparently arrived safe and sound?

I'm dealing with this BS with UPS right now, so the damnation towards UPS is appropriate.

4 straight days of:
"Due to operating conditions, your package may be delayed. / Delivery will be rescheduled."

*** are the UPS folk doing? A bike box isn't exactly a small thing to lose.