Danish study shows fewer cyclists than motorists break traffic laws...

[paredown]

--but we see them because they stand out:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/?fbclid=IwAR36yDj5ovdm-B23sdTOS8zivG-GpLxnb6TFBseAeHkgARZuzWgdGb934pc#47a97e5d4bfa

[rain dogs]

Thank you for posting this. I replied much the same based on other data points I have read/seen in the "cyclists must do better thread"

Again, motorists put far more people in danger, and break the laws more frequently than other road users including cyclists. But, that's widely accepted as normal and ignored whereas when a cyclist does similar it becomes an op-ed in every major newspaper.

66% of motorists vs 5-14% of cyclists!

Now, I agree that doesn't condone the law-breaking by any user, but let's be realistic about the scale of the problem, the hyperbole of the anger and the best way forward at finding solutions.

Also, where I always try to encourage the conversation is right at the top of that article:

"Want fewer scofflaw cyclists in your city? Install cycleways."

[charliedid]

So.

Most drivers break the speed limit and cyclists ride on the sidewalks.

Got it.

[chris7ed]

If I could speed on my bike I'd probably do it all the time. I rarely, maybe never, break the speed limit.

[rain dogs]

So.

Most drivers break the speed limit and cyclists ride on the sidewalks.

Got it.

It's odd how you use "most" and yet leave out the determiner with cyclists, when you could say "few" or "very few"

And "most" cyclists (84%) stop at red lights - which you'd think was the opposite listening to people writing about/talking about cyclist behavior.

66% of drivers broke circulation laws, with the most common being speeding and only 5% - 14% of cyclists broke circulation laws, with the most common being riding on the sidewalk.

And, in the motorists' case, it was just through the monitored intersections in the study... and speeding through those intersections.

Other studies indicate that around 85-90% of drivers break the limit in 20mph/30kph zones (school zones etc.)

And most data on breaking the speed limit is of the excessive variety - more than 5-10mph/kph over.... otherwise the numbers are nearly 100%.

[gdw]

Thank you for posting this. I replied much the same based on other data points I have read/seen in the "cyclists must do better thread"

Again, motorists put far more people in danger, and break the laws more frequently than other road users including cyclists. But, that's widely accepted as normal and ignored whereas when a cyclist does similar it becomes an op-ed in every major newspaper.

66% of motorists vs 5-14% of cyclists!

Now, I agree that doesn't condone the law-breaking by any user, but let's be realistic about the scale of the problem, the hyperbole of the anger and the best way forward at finding solutions.

Also, where I always try to encourage the conversation is right at the top of that article:

"Want fewer scofflaw cyclists in your city? Install cycleways."


Meh. That's a Danish study. Here's an informal American one. I lived for 15 years on a street that is used by dozens of cyclists daily to commute to work or to access one of Boulder's most popular climbs. During that period I never saw one of them stop at the intersection next to our house even though the stop sign was clearly visible. Almost every driver who passed by stopped.

[charliedid]

It's odd how you use "most" and yet leave out the determiner with cyclists, when you could say "few" or "very few"

I'm a conspiring cyclist/driver. I wonder what my percentages are? Excellent, by my standards.

And "most" cyclists (84%) stop at red lights - which you'd think was the opposite listening to people writing about/talking about cyclist behavior.

How many motorists stopped at red lights?

66% of drivers broke circulation laws, with the most common being speeding and only 5% - 14% of cyclists broke circulation laws, with the most common being riding on the sidewalk.

We covered this.

And, in the motorists' case, it was just through the monitored intersections in the study... and speeding through those intersections.

I'm slow on a bike and in a car.

Other studies indicate that around 85-90% of drivers break the limit in 20mph/30kph zones (school zones etc.)

Kids are the future. SLOW DOWN!

And most data on breaking the speed limit is of the excessive variety - more than 5-10mph/kph over.... otherwise the numbers are nearly 100%.

Excess is the new frugality.

[rain dogs]

Meh. That's a Danish study. Here's an informal American one. I lived for 15 years on a street that is used by dozens of cyclists daily to commute to work or to access one of Boulder's most popular climbs. During that period I never saw one of them stop at the intersection next to our house even though the stop sign was clearly visible. Almost every driver who passed by stopped.

Can I assume that you're both a car owner and probably a cyclist? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I guess what I'm curious about in these threads is what is your, or others, point?

Based on what you've said - 100% of cyclists you saw broke the law, studies that shown otherwise aren't important, especially if they aren't on your street, and a very few drivers didn't stop and also broke the law.

So what's the point? From a cyclist to another cyclist. Or maybe please answer this specific question:

Why does a large voice of cyclists within the cycling community decide to provide hyperbolic criticism of other cyclists, that isn't backed up by any data, anywhere, other than "my street" and concurrently trivialize and minimize driver misbehavior?

[charliedid]

Data Schmata...
https://youtu.be/wZqItCGY3Ns

[jlwdm]

Meh. That's a Danish study. Here's an informal American one. I lived for 15 years on a street that is used by dozens of cyclists daily to commute to work or to access one of Boulder's most popular climbs. During that period I never saw one of them stop at the intersection next to our house even though the stop sign was clearly visible. Almost every driver who passed by stopped.

Agreed. US and Denmark cycling do not compare.

Jeff

[gdw]

Why does a large voice of cyclists within the cycling community decide to provide hyperbolic criticism of other cyclists, that isn't backed up by any data, anywhere, other than "my street" and concurrently trivialize and minimize driver misbehavior?[/QUOTE]

Some of us are more observant and objective than others. We're aware of the dangers posed by bad drivers but are also honest enough to admit that a large percent of people riding bikes do so irresponsibly.

I'm curious, what studies and data are you referencing?

[paredown]

Agreed. US and Denmark cycling do not compare.

Jeff

True dat.

But I do think the idea that cyclists who are scofflaws stand out in ways that scofflaws in cars do not, precisely because the former are unusual applies here as well as in Denmark.

For sure the data point that most car drivers exceed the speed limit without thinking of themselves as law-breakers also seems to translate.

My route out of the neighborhood is a narrow two lane (no shoulders) that has become a cut-through since Waze (and probably Google)--it is posted at 30mph--average is probably north of 45 mph--and some of the pellmellers in rush hour are well over 50 (I've been driving with them and checked). And I'm pretty sure that no one gives it a thought.

And I have had drivers cross the double line to pass on blind sections while I have been driving close to the speed limit--they are that crazed. This despite the fact that it has the usual collection of bad sight lines, blind corners, driveways, cyclists and even kids on some sections.

[charliedid]

True dat.

But I do think the idea that cyclists who are scofflaws stand out in ways that scofflaws in cars do not, precisely because the former are unusual applies here as well as in Denmark.

For sure the data point that most car drivers exceed the speed limit without thinking of themselves as law-breakers also seems to translate.

My route out of the neighborhood is a narrow two lane that has become a cut-through since Waze (and probably Google)--it is posted at 30mph--average is probably north of 45 mph--and some of the pellmellers in rush hour are well over 50 (I've been driving with them and checked). And I'm pretty sure that no one gives it a thought.

And I have had drivers cross the double line to pass on blind sections while I have been driving close to the speed limit--they are that crazed. This despite the fact that it has the usual collection of bad sight lines, blind corners, driveways, cyclists and even kids on some sections.

I think in part it's the running of stop signs. Most everyone in Chicago slow rolls stops signs when nobody is around, even the bike cops. Cops here really could are less and rarely ever do anything about it. I ride with one and he is worse than I. That said it is fully situational and not every stop sign. Some routes with bike lanes, especially ones with contra flow lanes, drivers almost expect that cyclists will not fully stop. Makes for weird dances with stop signs. It's fluid and yes in part illegal but it really does basically work. I'm not talking about idiots here but people who are making calculated decisions every day, both motorists and cyclists.

Seems to work on the routes I use through the city which tend to be neighborhoods not busy avenues. That's a different beast and requires a full stop.

[bikeridah]

Meh. That's a Danish study. Here's an informal American one. I lived for 15 years on a street that is used by dozens of cyclists daily to commute to work or to access one of Boulder's most popular climbs. During that period I never saw one of them stop at the intersection next to our house even though the stop sign was clearly visible. Almost every driver who passed by stopped.

Mea culpa, I'm 50/50 about stopping, back road with no cars in sight, then I'll slow down but not stop. Red light at a busier intersection, I always stop, even if I don't see any cars coming.

If I go through a stop sign/light into fast moving traffic, I die. If a car blows through a stop light after I've stopped and proceed, I die. See what I did there?

[93KgBike]

Denmark, is one of the world's fastest growing oil export nations. School is free for its subjects, from pre-k to PhD.