Need a new rim! Which one?

[saab2000]

Ok folks, it finally happened. I am riding along and "ping" a drive-side spoke snapped. This in itself is no big deal. But I have been sort of waiting for this to happen. The rim is an "oldish" Mavic Open 4 CD. I have it laced to a Mavic 601 hub with DT Revs on both sides. The rim had been tensioned before and had problems because the spokes were too long. Anyway, I replaced the spokes with ones of the proper length. Anyway, the long and the short of it is that the wheel was seriously out of true. Like rubbing-the-frame-hard out of true.

As we all know, spokes require high tension in a modern wheel with the offset the way it is. Such is the case with these wheels. To be honest, they have not been great wheels, requiring pretty constant attention and tweaking. Part of the problem is my 180 lb weight, but that is not all of it.

Anyway, the long and the short of it is that I really ought to rebuild the wheel with at least all new spokes (14/15/14 guage butted spokes) and probably a new rim. I am afraid that if I rebuild with just new spokes and keep the rim that I will be simply asking for trouble down the road.

So kiddies, what should I do? Should I get a new rim and new spokes or rebuild with the old rim?

If I get a new rim, should I get an Open Pro and end up with many of the same issues of very uneven tension or should I get an offset rim? Bontrager makes a clincher with offset drilling and I think Ritchey also does. Does anyone else make an appropriate rim?

Any tips? Now is the chance to give some advice I may actually use! Normally I know what to do, but this time I am not sure. I really don't want to drop the coin for a new set of Neutrons (though I really like them).

[Redturbo]

Saab,
I have a set of custom velocity aeroheads OS that I've been real happy with. I have no problem recommending them.

turbo

[Peter]

One broken spoke does not spell the end of the wheel. It depends on the condition of the rim- is it still straight and round or are there cracks around the spoke holes?, and the sidewalls-do they show signs of wear i.e., do they feel like they're worn concave?

Put the wheel in the truing stand and see if it's reasonably round. If it looks rebuildable, strip it and lay it on a table top to see if it's warped. Replace it if it doesn't lie flat.

As for the high tension thing, here's an alternative. The trick is to overdish the wheel towards the gears by about 1 full turn of the gear side spokes when you arrive at full tension. Then pull it back to center with ONLY the non-gear side spokes being tightened.

If you're a heavier rider, longer lasting wheels can be had by running a larger cross section tire; consider using 25mm tires instead of 23s.

[saab2000]

The rim has been brought to full tension at least 3 times in its lifetime with 3 sets of spokes. I am a fairly competent wheelbuilder and I am certain that I could bring it to true and round again. But this is not the goal. The goal is to build a wheel which does not need to be trued after every 3rd ride.

I am not normally hard on my equipment. But since the proliferation of 9- and 10-speed wheels I have had more problems. My old 8-speed wheels could go a whole season and not need to be tweaked. My newer 10-speed wheels need frequent attention. There must be a reason for this.

I am not really in doubt that the rim is shot, thought there is no crazing of the material around the spoke holes. I think it is just "pretzeled" or "potato chipped" so to speak. I am sure I could get it perfect again, but for how long?

I may just build up an Open Pro. But I am curious about the offset rims. That is an idea which actually makes some sense I think.

[shaq-d]

every third ride! holy cow that is an insane amount of truing (i think, or maybe i need to start truing my wheel a bit more lol). i'm on an 8-speed, so i don't know if this will be relevant to you at all. but i'm 6'2, 220, and use mavic open pros 32 spoke, and they are rock solid. i've trued my wheel just once over the last 700km. i try to ride light and i'm not good enough to tax the bike anyway, i avg 16mph/26kmh, so i dunno if this would be similar to you.

sd


The rim has been brought to full tension at least 3 times in its lifetime with 3 sets of spokes. I am a fairly competent wheelbuilder and I am certain that I could bring it to true and round again. But this is not the goal. The goal is to build a wheel which does not need to be trued after every 3rd ride.

I am not normally hard on my equipment. But since the proliferation of 9- and 10-speed wheels I have had more problems. My old 8-speed wheels could go a whole season and not need to be tweaked. My newer 10-speed wheels need frequent attention. There must be a reason for this.

I am not really in doubt that the rim is shot, thought there is no crazing of the material around the spoke holes. I think it is just "pretzeled" or "potato chipped" so to speak. I am sure I could get it perfect again, but for how long?

I may just build up an Open Pro. But I am curious about the offset rims. That is an idea which actually makes some sense I think.

[Too Tall]

Saabster' - I have about 15 rides on a new set of 32 X Velocitys using Aerohead front and Aerohead OC rear. The quality of the Aerohead OC (rear) is not quite what I've enjoyed with their Deep Vee rims of past....the Deep Vee is an amazingly strong rim. I have no issue with the front aerohead but in one race on a rough course the seam moved ever-so-slightly and no further issues since. Maybe bad luck or who know but worth mentioning.

If I rebuild this rear wheel I will use the normal aerohead. My paranoid thinking is that industry did not have our best interest in mind when creating this wheel...rather it was to save money on lacing with same lenght spokes.

Save some grief and lace up the OPs, they are very very good.

Nod to BigMac who saw this coming.

[mls]

new op pro 14/15 spokes i would have never
used revs in the rear wheel

[vaxn8r]

I had a set of OP, 32 DT revs on 9 sp. Rec hubs. They did not last very long. I had broken 3 rear spokes in 6 months before rebuilding it. The front wheel lasted another 6 months before it needed a rebuild.

I find once I start breaking spokes, even one, it's a mark of things to come. I always try replacing the spoke, soon another goes, then a 3rd and it's time for a rebuild. I've had this same experience with 4 different wheelsets over the years, built-up by a 3 different shops. All 4 of these were Mavic clincher rims, 2 were 8 sp, 2 were 9 sp. (including the DT Rev wheel).

OTOH I've had some really good sets too. I have some Protons from about 2001 and I've never once trued them yet despite about 8K miles. I still have a 1985 set of 36 spoke straight gauge, 7 sp. DA hubs, MA40's. These things are still going, probably have about 15K miles and also virtually never needed truing.

Those Protons are perhaps my favorite all around wheels, especially when considering the price, performance and of course durability.

[vaxn8r]

Too Tall, what do you mean by a seam moving?

[Marco]

Does anybody have direct experience with both the Proton and Neutron? Is there a significant difference between the two? Is the Proton more built up to handle a 160 plus rider and thus more durable?

[saab2000]

..... a Bontrager rim. I also did something I have not done in a long, long, long time. I entrusted my wheel to a shop. I brought it in and talked to the wheelbuilder and was impressed with his knowledge. There was not a hint of arrogance on his part and he was more than willing to listen to my philosophy of wheelbuilding.

He gets my business. We ordered the Bontrager offset rim and I am going with 14/15 guage spokes. I went with the Bontrager because he felt that the offset spoking really does work. He also felt that material-wise the newer Bontrager rims give away nothing in quality to Mavic. I thought I would try something new.

It will probably weigh a bit more than the last one, but hopefully will be much stronger.

[Peter]

The "proliferation of 9 and 10 speed wheels" does not mean increasingly weaker wheels. Or let me explain in detail:

The move from 7speed/126mm wheels to 8speed/130mm wheels DID increase the dish and create weaker wheels. The moves to 9 and 10 speed have NOT created an even weaker wheel because what the manufacturers did was cantilever the largest cogs of the cassette over the flange rather than move the right side flange to the left and increase the width of the cassette body.

As long as the axle length stays the same and the flange spacing/position as well, dish will not change and neither will wheel strength i.e., left/right variations in spoke tension.

[saab2000]

....your point. But there is no denying that I have wheels which are 8-speed which are absolutely bomb proof and wheels which are 10-speed (don't actually have any 9-speed....) which have been trouble.

I guess I do not really know why and I am hoping that the new Bontragers solve the problem. At the end of the day all I really want is a bike I can just hop on and ride without fear of an untrue wheel.

That is, in fact, the appeal of Neutrons or Ksyriums. I have heard really nothing but good things about them.

[Jeff N.]

Give CXP-33's a try. Nothing but good luck with mine. Jeff N.

[BigMac]

Saab:

Your wheelsmith gave you very fine advise, the Bontrager rims are the best you can buy, I just wish they offered a sewup rim as well. Where is our resident Jerk, he promised an assymetric sewup rim was forthcoming. You should be aware Bontrager offers 2 assymetric clincher rims, a 20mm width and a 23mm width. The narrower rim is the best choice for tires up to 28mm width.

I believe TooTall was referring to the glued-pinned rim joint common to all Velocity rims, they are notorious for loosening/failing Bontrager rims are MIG welded which provides a FAR more reliable joint. All Mavic rims as well as NOS Campy, Wolber and Ambrosio rims are welded. The newer Ambrosio rims are mostly glued-pinned although their FIR produced sewup rim is welded. Most FIR rims are welded but even they offer an economy line of glued-pinned rims. Ritchey rims are now glued-pinned as are Sun-Rhyngo.

Your wheelsmith also gave you fine advise in avoiding Rev spokes in rear, particularly on driveside. The assymetric rims do help reduce spoke length and tension differential but does not eliminate the problem. I would suggest you use 3x lacing on driveside and 2x on non-drive, this will net nearly identical lengths and tensioning will be even closer balanced r-l.

Ride on!

[saab2000]

Thanks for the reassuring voice about the Bontrager rim! It is a bit of an experiment and I hope it works out. The unfortunate thing is that they do not make a 28-hole front, AFAIK. The wheels in question have a 28-hole hub in front and I do like matching sets! :D

I have used DT Revolutions on the front and there it has been a complete non issue. The front wheel has been as reliable as the sunrise.

[BigMac]

If you are not having any front wheel issues, great news. Just rebuild rear wheel with the new Bontrager rim and appropriate spoke/lacing pattern. Want rims to 'match'? Have the labels removed. If your OP front rim is dark or blue anodized, you'll need to order a silver version and remove its labels then rebuild it as well. Seems like alot of added expense and labor to apease an aesthetic only need but its your money, your time and your discerning eye so I'll leave that decision to you. I personally always have all labels removed from rims (actually all components if feasible) prior to build, just a cleaner look to my eye.

Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[saab2000]

.... I remove labels from rims as well. In fact, I ordered a dark anodized to match the front rim. We will see how they match. The front is not an Open Pro, but rather an older Open 4 CD.

Well, I hope it works out. BTW, I agree that aesthetics are secondary. But we all like nice looking equipment.

[Keith A]

I have always thought the offset rear rims were a good idea and am a bit surprised that Mavic hasn't got in on this market. Ritchey, Velocity, and Bontrager all offer this "technology".

One interesting thing about the Bontrager is that the matching front rim (Aurora) has a noticeably different profile. I would have thought they would make the profiles a little more similar. The Aurora OSB profile is very similar to the Mavic OPs and would think that the OP would look better with the Aurora OSB if you are trying to match the looks (labels removed offcourse).

Big Mac -- One question for you. Do you know who makes the Bontrager rims? I know that the Aurora label was also used by Matrix, which was Trek's rims from the past. Trek is now using Bontrager as their parts label and was curious if they actually manufacture the stuff or not.

[tch]

Though I know I'm late to this thread, I gotta stick in my $0.02 on a side-note. What are you guys doing??!! Losing wheel true every three rides - even every 500 miles? I have a pair of Open Pros, 32 hole, which came on my bike and I have over 6,000 bumpy, potholed miles on them. They have been perfect until just last week when I noticed that I have a little "blip" where one of the spokes had loosened up. I tightened it up, re-checked true, and expect to get another couple thousand miles on them. I'm no weasel either -- I weigh 175 pounds -- and I ride New England back roads with frost heaves and broken pavement. I can't believe I am the only one.

[deanster]

new op pro 14/15 spokes i would have never
used revs in the rear wheel

Agree. The CD4 rims are probably at the end of their useful life. Open Pros with 14/15 spokes 32H are pretty rugged. The Mavic CPX33 rims are aero and as tough as the OP. I have a set of wheels that I built in 03 and have about 14K miles I only touch up the wheels annually other wise they stay true. OP rims 32H 14/15 spokes, and record hubs. I run the tension right at the top of the suggested range and use the WS tensiometer. I have several other sets that don't have as many miles but are true. I went with 36H on my cross bike and have ridden them over some real rough terrain. Don't waste your time with the old rims and don't use revolution spokes on a rear wheel unless it is for show and never on the drive side. I weigh 205 today but most of the 14K miles on the one set I was at 238 lbs.