OT: Building. We want to install solar, later Anything we should do?

[cetuximab]

In a few years, after the finances have recover this shock. Is there anything we should do to make that easier?

Colorado, so 300 days of sunshine.

[unterhausen]

I take it this is on new construction?

[CDollarsign]

I don’t know much about it but would assume your provision for wiring as well as a place for a battery. A coworker is doing the same and had a metal roof laid where he was planning on putting the panels. I guess you don’t want to have to remove the panels due to shingle damage.

[pdonk]

The builders I work with provide solar ready as an option. Biggest things I hear them talk about are:

Confirm truss design for snow load and expected weight of panels.

Have a non conductive (pvc pipe) run from attic to basement.

Make sure there is a logical location for the inverter near your panel.

[MattTuck]

Not knowing the details of your lot, here's another option that is a company local to me.

The array moves with the sun to increase efficiency.

http://www.solaflect.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/solaflect-solar-energy.jpg

http://www.solaflect.com/solar-solutions/

[cmg]

battery backup, sized for daily use.

[Davist]

keep in mind most residential systems are designed to work in conjunction with the grid, not standalone, if that's a criterion. Standing seam metal roof plus loading calcs, leave enough room in the electrical closet for a much bigger panel/equipment and possibly battery system. Consider that batteries are a "chemistry set" and inherently need a bit of care and feeding. (environmental in particular).

[srcarter]

Aftermarket solar installation is so straightforward that I don't really think anything is essential. On older homes, the main panel sometimes needs an upgrade, but that wouldn't be an issue on a new home. As mentioned above, a conduit could be helpful, but that can be added after the fact pretty easily.

If not using a battery, you can use "microinverters" that convert DC to AC at the panel, so no need to have a place for an inverter. For battery systems, you want to have DC coming off the panel, then would need a large inverter.

When we had solar installed, I was surprised by the range in pricing. We got about 5 quotes, and for similar systems, the price range was about $10-24K. We went with a well-reviewed independent installer at the low end, and the system has worked exactly as advertised.

[Ralph]

My two brothers and I are leasing 15 acres of farm land in NC to a solar plant operator who leases the land from us, and sells the electricity to Duke Energy. It's a small 2 MW plant, (enough for maybe 300 homes) and I believe their 30 year contract with Duke is for about $.065 per KWH. I know Duke says on average it cost them about $.07 per KWH to produce electricity all over their system. Here in Central Florida....Duke is charging about $.10 per KWH at retail level.

I know what they pay us for the lease, and I know what it cost the operator to build this small plant.....and even with some Fed and state subsidies, and I have a good idea what it costs to build one for individual home. I just don't see how this makes economic sense....takes many years to break even, seems to me. And for sure don't see how it makes economic sense to put one on a roof. But know...some just want to do it to be part of doing something about the environment. I get that.

The solar operator does say....that in Arizona....where he can build some huge solar plants, he can produce for about $.04-.05 per KWH.

I also understand....with next generation panels (which maybe are here now), can make some power on a cloudy day, and with batteries....can produce 24/7.

[NHAero]

1 - Clear path from roof to service panel for conduit. Could run the conduit ahead of time, but we don't usually have difficulty running the conduit. Get conduit specs from a local installer so you know you have any local wrinkles to the NEC covered!
2 - Space near panel for a central string inverter or two, depending on the array size. We use Solar Edge products, so there are optimizers on each panel (like a microinverter system) but there is still a central inverter. If you end up going all microinverters you won't need this space.
3 - The standard residential equipment weighs under 3 pounds/sf, so that should be included in structural calcs but is unlikely to change much. Wind codes have changed again, we expect some significant affects in the 2018 code when adopted, but expect this will be mostly on wind uplift rather than anything related to equipment dead load.
4 - If you are doing a standing seam roof, make sure the connections to the roof structure are engineered and well-documented.
5 - If you're using conventional shingles, buy really long lived ones, because the ones the panels cover will likely live longer due to reduced solar exposure and it's nice to not have to pull the racks and panels for a re-roof.

When I put my system in in 2013, I had the racking system attached with hanger bolts, which are lag threaded on the end that goes into the roof structure, and machine threaded on the end that protrudes, for fastening the rack system. That way the system can be removed for re-roofing, and the bolts stay in place, and the roofer flashes around them. Makes re-installation way simpler.

Buy top line solar products from a company likely to be around. We sell Sunpower, the highest efficiency modules, but there are other good ones like LG. Avoid Chinese panels. Evaluate cost according to cost per kWh delivered over time, not cost per kW installed.

Batteries - too much to write here, tech is changing, we've installed sealed lead-acid in the past, Sonnenbatterie in the past few years, and currently doing our first Tesla install. In most places there is no economic argument for batteries in residential settings, the pricing structure doesn't support it. Hawaii is one exception, there may be others.

Our experience is that the solar electric systems are extremely reliable. Battery systems have taken more fussing. We did an off-grid house last year and just started building a large house project that is off-grid. Different battery systems for those applications.

[unterhausen]

My two brothers and I are leasing 15 acres of farm land in NC to a solar plant operator who leases the land from us, and sells the electricity to Duke Energy. It's a small 2 MW plant, (enough for maybe 300 homes) and I believe their 30 year contract with Duke is for about $.065 per KWH. I know Duke says on average it cost them about $.07 per KWH to produce electricity all over their system. Here in Central Florida....Duke is charging about $.10 per KWH at retail level.
This is interesting because we were riding in Northern Virginia and there were signs protesting solar farms, just like the signs you see about pipelines. Maybe the issue is the same, they need easements to get the power somewhere useful. Otherwise I don't really see why you would worry about one of your neighbors leasing land to be a solar farm.

[Yoshi]

I have a good idea what it costs to build one for individual home. I just don't see how this makes economic sense....takes many years to break even, seems to me. And for sure don't see how it makes economic sense to put one on a roof.

Hopefully I'm not taking your quote out of context here.

When people express an interest in my rooftop solar array the inevitable "how long will it take to pay for itself" question always seems to come up.
No one seems to question when their typical electric/oil/gas heating and cooling system will pay for itself. Because the answer, of course, is never.
One must continue to feed it electricity or oil or gas or whatever, every day, until it quits working...and then buy a new one.

My rooftop array has a 25 year warranty.
It should "pay" for itself no later than year 13.
So, I should get no less than 12ish years of "free" electricity.

[Ralph]

This is interesting because we were riding in Northern Virginia and there were signs protesting solar farms, just like the signs you see about pipelines. Maybe the issue is the same, they need easements to get the power somewhere useful. Otherwise I don't really see why you would worry about one of your neighbors leasing land to be a solar farm.

The county where ours is how rules about how far it has o be from a neighbor, road, etc. And the inverter has to be where it can't be heard by a neighbor. And....the operator put up a big fence all around the plant with greenery all around it. You can barely tell what's behind the fence. And....in case they go broke....they had to put up a bond with county that would pay for putting our land back in original condition (our and county requirement). However....salvage value of a solar farm would be substantial.

[Yoshi]

In a few years, after the finances have recover this shock. Is there anything we should do to make that easier?

Colorado, so 300 days of sunshine.

Talk to some installers in your area. They will answer all your questions. To me it's a no brainer.
One thing to consider is that the 30% federal tax credit starts to go away after this year so if you can find a way (financially?) to do it sooner is better than later.

https://news.energysage.com/congress-extends-the-solar-tax-credit/

Don't be afraid to ask your installer about financing. Might be apples and oranges but in my area when I did it a few years ago some installers were offering a financing package that the payment on was guaranteed to be less than your previous utility payment so more people could afford to do it.

[Ralph]

Hopefully I'm not taking your quote out of context here.

When people express an interest in my rooftop solar array the inevitable "how long will it take to pay for itself" question always seems to come up.
No one seems to question when their typical electric/oil/gas heating and cooling system will pay for itself. Because the answer, of course, is never.
One must continue to feed it electricity or oil or gas or whatever every day until it quits working...and then get a new one.

My rooftop array has a 25 year warranty.
It should "pay" for itself no later than year 13.
So, I should get no less than 12ish years of "free" electricity.

As you might be able to tell.....I'm a big fan of solar power. Just think it's probably cheaper to buy solar power from someone who has a 500 acre solar farm than my rooftop. But I understand what you are saying.

Here in Florida.....where we run a/c or heat 24/7 X 365....Our not so large home (2500 sq ft) uses about 2000 KWH per month. Don't believe my property could supply that. Do have a solar water heating system for the pool.....8 4X8 panels.

[Mark McM]

When people express an interest in my rooftop solar array the inevitable "how long will it take to pay for itself" question always seems to come up.
No one seems to question when their typical electric/oil/gas heating and cooling system will pay for itself. Because the answer, of course, is never.
One must continue to feed it electricity or oil or gas or whatever, every day, until it quits working...and then buy a new one.

That's not a valid comparison. One does not buy a heating or cooling system as a direct replacement for something else. They buy it so they can have heating or cooling. A more valid comparison would be comparing different heating or cooling systems (say, oil vs. gas. vs. electric), based on initial costs, operating costs, and break even point.

Likewise, if you want electrical power, you can get it completely from the grid, or you can invest in a electrical generation system (say, solar or wind). Here, it is perfectly valid to compare initial costs, operating costs, and break even points.

Not to mention that there are more factors in the decision to invest in a solar electricity system than just costs. For example, hybrid and electric cars are quite popular for a variety of reasons, even though cost wise they can often be more expensive than gasoline powered vehicles.

[NHAero]

I agree with what Mark says, but also with what Yoshi is saying. I've worked in low energy, high performance buildings for 40 years now. No one ever asks what the payback is on the granite countertops or on the hot tub. They buy those things because they make them feel good. My rooftop solar electric system makes me feel good, so I bought it. The fact that it's paid for already in year 8 and all future production is income is icing on the cake to me. And now, because I had a surplus, it's fueling most of the miles we drive annually, because we bought a plug-in hybrid car.

Many energy saving investments are good deals financially. I was the building performance consultant a few years ago on a new building for the MIT Sloan School of Management. Those folks are reasonably good with financial analysis. I helped with inputs for a financial analysis that a class of students performed on the package of energy saving investments that were incorporated into that >$100 million dollar building. The net present value was $12 million.



That's not a valid comparison. One does not buy a heating or cooling system as a direct replacement for something else. They buy it so they can have heating or cooling. A more valid comparison would be comparing different heating or cooling systems (say, oil vs. gas. vs. electric), based on initial costs, operating costs, and break even point.

Likewise, if you want electrical power, you can get it completely from the grid, or you can invest in a electrical generation system (say, solar or wind). Here, it is perfectly valid to compare initial costs, operating costs, and break even points.

Not to mention that there are more factors in the decision to invest in a solar electricity system than just costs. For example, hybrid and electric cars are quite popular for a variety of reasons, even though cost wise they can often be more expensive than gasoline powered vehicles.

[paredown]

<snip>The fact that it's paid for already in year 8 and all future production is income is icing on the cake to me. And now, because I had a surplus, it's fueling most of the miles we drive annually, because we bought a plug-in hybrid car.

This is my dream--2/3 of our driving could be done with something like a Leaf...

In a recent past life, we looked at converting a local realtor's main office where I was doing maintenance--one field on the long low main building would produce enough power to run it and a satellite office--payback was around year 7--and this is in not-so-sunny New York, and with fewer incentives since it was a commercial installation.

[93KgBike]

No one ever asks what the payback is on the granite countertops or on the hot tub.

Judging by what my wife has shared with me from watching HGTV, that's pretty much their bread & butter.

[cetuximab]

I take it this is on new construction?

We are building a new home.

[David Kirk]

A friend of mine makes this self aiming solar panel racking devise that follows the sun and do not use any power or need a computer to manage it. It uses the focused solar energy to twist the panel into the sun and when the sun goes down it slowly rotates back making itself ready for the AM sun.

Pretty cool and super efficient.

dave

https://youtu.be/47NsbyQOKfI

[cnighbor1]

My ? is always if solar panels go on an existing roof should a new roof be done before panels installed Has it makes it a lot easier to do before

[rwsaunders]

I did a quick search on Elon’s website and I’m having a hard time crunching the numbers for my region...western PA. But hey, they’ll take it back within within 7 days if I don’t like it. Nowhere do I see the shelf life of the panels and batteries, as they both degrade over a period of time.

https://www.tesla.com/energy/design/#payment

https://www.tesla.com/energy/design/#powerwall

[NHAero]

A two axis tracker should get 30% or so more kWh/kW than a fixed array. What we've found is that panels themselves continue to get cheaper and trackers have not, so it's been less $$$ to buy more panels if there is a suitable roof to mount them on, than to buy fewer panels and a tracker. Also fewer things to need repair eventually.

Depending on the design wind speed where you live (I'm coastal) the foundation for one of those things is no joke! That's a big sail.


A friend of mine makes this self aiming solar panel racking devise that follows the sun and do not use any power or need a computer to manage it. It uses the focused solar energy to twist the panel into the sun and when the sun goes down it slowly rotates back making itself ready for the AM sun.

Pretty cool and super efficient.

dave

https://youtu.be/47NsbyQOKfI

[old fat man]

We leased 24 panels starting in 2015 for $70/month, zero money down. 20 year lease includes guaranteed minimum annual production which we've achieved all but one year.

At most I spend $70+$20 to be hooked up to the grid. Summer surplus cancels out winter under production. In southern New England my electricity bill would have otherwise averaged over $120/month.

If panels or the inverter fail, it's up to the leasing company to repair or replace since I'm leasing. When we relocated some of the external components during an addition, they forgot to charge me for the labor ($1000).

This system has been a money saver from the start. I'm very pleased with my home solar.

Only accommodation we needed was extra bracing in the attic per town building codes. Leasing company ate the $700 for that too.

[PeregrineA1]

I believe your geography and site specifics matter as well. Our system face within a degree or two of due south and has no obstructions. Our bill is ~$20/month, including annual “settle-up” bill from So Cal Edison. There are 2 of us 90% of the time in 3,000 SF. AC use for 6-10 hours a day for 90-100 days a year. Gas heat for house and pool. We try to do laundry and dishwasher during the day. So Cal Edison is now advertising that they will be killing the power during wind events. I will likely get a small generator to take care of the fridge, freezer, and some light. Batteries don’t seem to be there yet.


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[NHAero]

The amount of sun where you live, and whether you have an unobstructed site, are key factors, but the third is cost of grid power. In coastal MA we're not sunny compared to some western locations, but we pay $0.22/kWh. So we may be more cost-effective for solar than a much sunnier location.

Policy matters a lot. In parts of AZ, the utility charges a solar customer a fixed $50/month to be hooked up. That's a pretty big dis-incentive!

I believe your geography and site specifics matter as well. Our system face within a degree or two of due south and has no obstructions. Our bill is ~$20/month, including annual “settle-up” bill from So Cal Edison. There are 2 of us 90% of the time in 3,000 SF. AC use for 6-10 hours a day for 90-100 days a year. Gas heat for house and pool. We try to do laundry and dishwasher during the day. So Cal Edison is now advertising that they will be killing the power during wind events. I will likely get a small generator to take care of the fridge, freezer, and some light. Batteries don’t seem to be there yet.


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