Big time players mixing into second hand sales

[Monthly Payment]

I thought it was interesting when my local Trek shops and dealers were offering Bicycle Blue Book trade in value to be applied on buying new road disc bikes, but I got an email today about Zipp doing trades ins for old wheels through the Pros Closet.

https://www.zipp.com/news/ready-for-new-zipp-wheels-your-local-zipp-dealer-can-help-you-trade-in-and-speed-up

It’s interesting (and somewhat positive) to see brands jumping into the second hand game. For too long the production cycle felt like bike stuff was moving at a non durable goods pace - like I was suppose to buy new stuff every 2-3 years while my equipment was just fine.

I hope other brands keep this going. I remember Litespeed and ABG did a buy back and second hand bikes program in the mid 2000’s and it didn’t last very long.

[velotrack]

am i crazy or is this just the same thing as selling your wheels to TPC then buying a new pair?

[Black Dog]

This is no different than what the auto industry is doing. Bikes are very expensive and models change every 5 minutes, people want the latest and greatest. Bike shops will make good money on the difference between buy back value and resale value, just like dealerships do, especially with a CPO program. Financing options, leasing etc.....this is not far off. When bikes are now well north of $10,000 this seems very plausible.

[Mark McM]

The big brands are not getting into the 2nd hand market, they are getting into (or rather, pushing even harder) the game to encouraging customers to replace their still good equipment. Notice that they are leaving the 2nd hand market part to a separate company (The Pros Closet).

Manufacturers benefit when customers buy their equipment when the customer needs new equipment. They benefit even more when customers buy even more of their equipment, even when the original equipment still have usable life. This program is just priming the pump for repeat sales.

This is not new at all. Car companies have long prodded customers to buy new cars, even when their current cars are still fine. Accepting trade-ins when selllng new cars just helps that process.

Being a cynic, I'd call the Zipp program a negative, rather than a positive. It just encourages a throw away culture to entice people to buy new products when their current products are perfectly usable.

[prototoast]

am i crazy or is this just the same thing as selling your wheels to TPC then buying a new pair?

It's possible that zipp can sweeten the deal a little by building in a discount. So if tpc would normally pay $250 for a set of wheels, maybe under this program, you can get a $500 credit where half comes from tpc and half is effectively a factory rebate from zipp.

[nmrt]

i have tried selling my bikes to The Pros Closet (TPC). I like this company a lot. They are local to me and I have bought a LOT from them in the past 6-7 years. But I would rather sell my bikes here (even on a Bro deal) or on ebay and still come out ahead in terms of price than sell it to TPC. The money they offer (at least to me) was a pittance.

[dddd]

...Being a cynic, I'd call the Zipp program a negative, rather than a positive. It just encourages a throw away culture to entice people to buy new products when their current products are perfectly usable.


It's not quite throw-away when the stuff gets re-sold, but your money, yeah, is getting thrown into the new bike/wheels or whatever.

There would seem to be a higher rate of churn when it's a sport that we're talking about, with riders wanting to stay current, i.e. well equipped enough to be competitive, and with rationality perhaps going out the windows.
Not that different from the "competition" of showing off other new stuff, whether it's clothes, "trophy" girlfriend, car, house, etc.
A sense of status/competition is a big reason why people spend money to have things that they technically don't need, and which industry competitors tend to depend on to remain viable.
It's these big spenders that are funding today's fast rates of product development, which thankfully trickles down to the modestly-priced bikes.

[vincenz]

The CPO program from the pros closet is just their way of raising prices. Once they introduced the program all the prices of their bikes went up. I don’t buy into the marketing. They were selling the same bikes before the program at much lower prices. I wouldn’t bother selling a bike or components to them also. They will, understandably, lowball you. You can get a much better deal selling even through eBay.

[Elefantino]

The big brands are not getting into the 2nd hand market, they are getting into (or rather, pushing even harder) the game to encouraging customers to replace their still good equipment.
Gets it.

[Black Dog]

The big brands are not getting into the 2nd hand market, they are getting into (or rather, pushing even harder) the game to encouraging customers to replace their still good equipment. Notice that they are leaving the 2nd hand market part to a separate company (The Pros Closet).

Manufacturers benefit when customers buy their equipment when the customer needs new equipment. They benefit even more when customers buy even more of their equipment, even when the original equipment still have usable life. This program is just priming the pump for repeat sales.

This is not new at all. Car companies have long prodded customers to buy new cars, even when their current cars are still fine. Accepting trade-ins when selllng new cars just helps that process.

Being a cynic, I'd call the Zipp program a negative, rather than a positive. It just encourages a throw away culture to entice people to buy new products when their current products are perfectly usable.

This is what marketing does. :mad: Buy based on newness, status, and cost, and by all means ignore value.

[oldpotatoe]

i have tried selling my bikes to The Pros Closet (TPC). I like this company a lot. They are local to me and I have bought a LOT from them in the past 6-7 years. But I would rather sell my bikes here (even on a Bro deal) or on ebay and still come out ahead in terms of price than sell it to TPC. The money they offer (at least to me) was a pittance.

They are a 'bike shop', and as such, they have a 'nut' to cover financially like any business. What TPC offers is convenience, ease of sale, but a biz, none-the-less. :)

[sitzmark]

This is what marketing does. :mad: Buy based on newness, status, and cost, and by all means ignore value.

It’s what all businesses do that stay in business, employ people, compensate investors ... and participate in this thing we call an economy. There are no villains - if there is no market/demand for a product it dies fairly quickly regardless of how many dollars are poured into marketing.

Probably not a stretch to say that none of us would have the cycling products we have if the system was any different - regardless of whether those products are original purchases or pre-owned. It is also fair to say that there is nothing any of us own that someone doesn’t perceive as being a poor value. Most people think a bike that cost more than a couple hundred bucks is a stupid purchase.

[Black Dog]

It’s what all businesses do that stay in business, employ people, compensate investors ... and participate in this thing we call an economy. There are no villains - if there is no market/demand for a product it dies fairly quickly regardless of how many dollars are poured into marketing.

Probably not a stretch to say that none of us would have the cycling products we have if the system was any different - regardless of whether those products are original purchases or pre-owned. It is also fair to say that there is nothing any of us own that someone doesn’t perceive as being a poor value. Most people think a bike that cost more than a couple hundred bucks is a stupid purchase.

Well, that may be a stretch to say there are no villains. "its just business" are not magic words that excuse anything. Market demands are often generated by business using very sophisticated means of manipulation. It is not all evil it and there are villains and sometimes it is the consumer that takes the role of the villain or is at least complicit in villainous activity.

[AngryScientist]

The entire bike business would grind to a halt if people stopped buying new gear. If we were all riding bikes from the 80’s and replacing a cable, hub bearing and brake pad every now and then; the bike biz couldn’t stay alive.

Don’t be mad at bike companies trying to sell bike stuff. Be a smart consumer. Buy what makes you happy and you can afford. Be realistic: no one is forcing us to buy a new pair of Zipps or Aero bike.

[MattTuck]

The entire bike business would grind to a halt if people stopped buying new gear. If we were all riding bikes from the 80’s and replacing a cable, hub bearing and brake pad every now and then; the bike biz couldn’t stay alive.

Don’t be mad at bike companies trying to sell bike stuff. Be a smart consumer. Buy what makes you happy and you can afford. Be realistic: no one is forcing us to buy a new pair of Zipps or Aero bike.

Nick gets it. Cycling industry today is about demand generation for new equipment. It is pretty hard to bring a new person into cycling, and then stay with them for several upgrade cycles as they go from a 1,800 entry level bike to a more performance oriented set up. Much easier to sell an existing cyclist on the promise of being faster.

Truth be told, bikes from the 90s were not that much slower. And if you remove the effect of power based training and other advances in training/nutrition, the effect may be even smaller.

[Elefantino]

When we started taking trades for BicycleBuy, part of the sales pitch was that you could use your old bike as a downpayment on a new one. That, and the ease of using your old bike as a trade-in rather than selling it yourself on eBay or Craigslist. That said, what BB was offering in trade was ridiculously low, about half of what they're selling the bikes for on their site and eBay. And we would tell the customer up front that they could probably get more on eBay or Craigslist; what we offered was the clean convenience transaction. We took in a Look 566 with Ultegra in good used condition and the customer got around $450.

[dddd]

Nick gets it. Cycling industry today is about demand generation for new equipment. It is pretty hard to bring a new person into cycling, and then stay with them for several upgrade cycles as they go from a 1,800 entry level bike to a more performance oriented set up. Much easier to sell an existing cyclist on the promise of being faster.

Truth be told, bikes from the 90s were not that much slower. And if you remove the effect of power based training and other advances in training/nutrition, the effect may be even smaller.

I was thinking maybe putting the bold text in quotes(?) ;-)

I've used this early-50's bike on training rides and if anything I spent more time than usual at the front (mainly because it's limited gearing forced me to attack the climbs).
They knew how to make fast bikes in France back then, 21lbs and with 76-degree frame angles if you can believe it!

https://live.staticflickr.com/7176/6840161136_9fd0fa973e_b.jpg

[zmalwo]

I think we need to look at the bicycle industry, especially the sports bike sector, as a small industry since the bike industry only has a small annual revenue of $10 bil in total.

[Black Dog]

Nick gets it. Cycling industry today is about demand generation for new equipment. It is pretty hard to bring a new person into cycling, and then stay with them for several upgrade cycles as they go from a 1,800 entry level bike to a more performance oriented set up. Much easier to sell an existing cyclist on the promise of being faster.

Truth be told, bikes from the 90s were not that much slower. And if you remove the effect of power based training and other advances in training/nutrition, the effect may be even smaller.

The industry is in trouble since it is not seeing the recruitment of new young riders and and even recruitment of older riders is weak. The hooks are trying to catch the fish from the same and shrinking school of fish. I am talking about road bikes here. Not sure of MTBs are facing the same issues.

As for bikes getting faster that is really not the case except for some small gains in aerodynamics that really are negated for most racing situations. Not enough to account for the trends that the graph shows. Training, nutrition, dope, and changing race tactics and strategies more than account for increases in average speeds.

[vincenz]

As for bikes getting faster that is really not the case except for some small gains in aerodynamics that really are negated for most racing situations. Not enough to account for the trends that the graph shows. Training, nutrition, dope, and changing race tactics and strategies more than account for increases in average speeds.


I think the gains are there, but may not be “noticed” in real life because of many circumstances. There’s an interesting thread on this below

https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/7661/why-arent-tour-de-france-riders-going-any-faster

[Red Tornado]

Nick gets it. Cycling industry today is about demand generation for new equipment. It is pretty hard to bring a new person into cycling, and then stay with them for several upgrade cycles as they go from a 1,800 entry level bike to a more performance oriented set up. Much easier to sell an existing cyclist on the promise of being faster.

Truth be told, bikes from the 90s were not that much slower. And if you remove the effect of power based training and other advances in training/nutrition, the effect may be even smaller.

$1800 is now entry level?

TBH, I have not purchased a complete bike from a shop in a good while, and this is probably the reason for my sticker shock. I manage to find frames at closeout/tax sales/etc. and the same for components. Sometimes I'll barter with other riders, and even done that successfully a few times with shops. Just wait for the right price and the grab it when I see it. Might be unconventional but it keeps my costs reasonable (for me) and I still have pretty nice stuff. For example, the current go-to road bike is a Cinelli frame, Fulcrum Racing Zero 2-way wheels, Campy Centaur/Veloce 10-speed drivetrain & Cinelli cockpit. Not the newest stuff, but works great, good quality. I don't know what this bike would cost new in a shop with equivalent parts (but I'm curious).

Three kids in college, I'm a tool design engineer and wife's in social work, still have a mortgage payment. We have a nice but modest home, decent vehicles and really don't lack for anything, but sure don't have the scratch to buy a new bike equivalent to the one I'm doing most road rides on now, based on the entry level price. Last bike bought new at the shop was 2010. Specialized Hardrock for my son. Nice aluminum frame, SRAM X5/X3 and entry-level fork & wheels. $500.

If it takes almost $2K to get you a quality "entry level" bike, that may be part of the problem from my viewpoint. I am guessing MTB/CX/gravel/etc. are about the same.

Am I the only one surprised or maybe I'm just that far behind the curve? Did not realize cycling was this expensive buying new from the dealer.

[William]

Eh, I still think some of the best deals you will find are here on our own classifieds section.

I guess if you don't want to deal with selling your own stuff that makes it easier but the convience costs you on what you probably could have made selling it yourself. kind of like selling your text books back at the end of the term.;)








W.

[cmg]

The local shop has a buy back program. It's about encouraging existing riders to get the latest and greatest. Mostly it's for riders that don't wrench their stuff. All my rides even the custom i have are cobbled from used parts. and when Campy introduces the 13-14 speed i'll get the 12 spd gear used.

[vincenz]

$1800 is now entry level?

TBH, I have not purchased a complete bike from a shop in a good while, and this is probably the reason for my sticker shock. I manage to find frames at closeout/tax sales/etc. and the same for components. Sometimes I'll barter with other riders, and even done that successfully a few times with shops. Just wait for the right price and the grab it when I see it. Might be unconventional but it keeps my costs reasonable (for me) and I still have pretty nice stuff. For example, the current go-to road bike is a Cinelli frame, Fulcrum Racing Zero 2-way wheels, Campy Centaur/Veloce 10-speed drivetrain & Cinelli cockpit. Not the newest stuff, but works great, good quality. I don't know what this bike would cost new in a shop with equivalent parts (but I'm curious).

Three kids in college, I'm a tool design engineer and wife's in social work, still have a mortgage payment. We have a nice but modest home, decent vehicles and really don't lack for anything, but sure don't have the scratch to buy a new bike equivalent to the one I'm doing most road rides on now, based on the entry level price. Last bike bought new at the shop was 2010. Specialized Hardrock for my son. Nice aluminum frame, SRAM X5/X3 and entry-level fork & wheels. $500.

If it takes almost $2K to get you a quality "entry level" bike, that may be part of the problem from my viewpoint. I am guessing MTB/CX/gravel/etc. are about the same.

Am I the only one surprised or maybe I'm just that far behind the curve? Did not realize cycling was this expensive buying new from the dealer.



Nah, I wouldn’t call $1800 entry-level. I would call it the bottom end of the mid-level bikes. Talking retail prices of course.

Entry level would be like Tiagra and below for example. I’m sure you can get bikes like those below $1000.

[Red Tornado]

Nah, I wouldn’t call $1800 entry-level. I would call it the bottom end of the mid-level bikes. Talking retail prices of course.

Entry level would be like Tiagra and below for example. I’m sure you can get bikes like those below $1000.

Whew! That's more in line with how I was thinking.

[zmalwo]

Talking about the newest and greatest when RD design havent changed for over 70 years....

[Black Dog]

Talking about the newest and greatest when RD design havent changed for over 70 years....

Well, I would argue that there have been some major changes to RD design. Yes, they all still use a parallelogram to some degree but beyond that a modern RD is very different than its predecessors.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_atrK-jBKJKY/Sz_13RSQcBI/AAAAAAAAKTY/1jbbaMrgCAc/s400/Campy+GS+2+made+from+brass.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcRedK8GjEtStq-_bDI7j64gaAN9UI3vbetB9js_WJsX01654IP_yfWC6x3RthWFi t5FqilCohD_&usqp=CAE

[Mark McM]

Talking about the newest and greatest when RD design havent changed for over 70 years....

Rear derailleur design has changed substantially in the last 70 years. 70 year old derailleurs don't work with indexed shifting, and can't manage the extreme cassette sprocket size differentials of today.

Here's a few of the changes: 70 years ago, most derailleurs were of the plunger rod design, and parallelogram derailleurs were still a few years off. The first parallelogram derailleurs were straight parallelogram with just a single spring pivot (the 'A' pivot on the cage). The first change was to move to a dropped parallogram (top parallogram pivots offset from the mounting bolt), which increased the maximum rear sprocket size. Then a spring was added to the top pivot ('B' pivot), which helped the jockey pulley track the sprocket size. Next, the parallogram was slanted, which helped the jockey pulley to track the sprocket size even more. These features allowed the derailleur to maintain a nearly constant chain gap (distance between sprocket and jockey pulley), which is necessary for reliable indexed shifting. And the derailleur didn't stop evolving here. More recently, the top pivot has been offset rearward, which allows the derailleur a larger vertical swing, to allow even larger sprocket differentials, and clutches have been added to the cage pivot to prevent chain bounce, and thus minimize chain drops.


(As a side comment, the introduction of electronic shifting is primarily a change in the shifter mechanism, rather the derailleur mechanism. An electrically actuated derailleur has all the same fundamental features and operation as a cable actuated derailleur, and merely replaces the cable stops with a motor. An analogy would be a electric pencil sharpener which merely replaces a hand crank with an electric motor.)

[cmg]

Truth be told, bikes from the 90s were not that much slower. And if you remove the effect of power based training and other advances in training/nutrition, the effect may be even smaller.

Why is isn't this graph a gentle upward curve? peaks and valleys at regular intervals, what's up with that?

[Ozz]

Why is isn't this graph a gentle upward curve? peaks and valleys at regular intervals, what's up with that?

Different routes? (Or is P-R always the same?)

Different leaders setting different paces / strategies? Varying number of crashes each year?

[Mark McM]

Different routes? (Or is P-R always the same?)

Different leaders setting different paces / strategies? Varying number of crashes each year?

Different weather conditions, Wet, muddy weather will make the race slower?

The route definitely has changed over the years. With the march of progress, cobbled sections continue to shorten or disappear, and the organizers are continuously seeking ways to replace the portions that disappear with new portions.

(The Manhattan Island Swim marathon is a race around Manhattan Island, NY. With the same course each year, the course being absolutely flat, and the lack of team tactics, you might expect similar speeds from one year to the next, but in fact the speeds vary widely year to year. That's because the water around Manhattan has a lot of tidal currents, and the height of the chop can vary quite a bit with the weather.)

[duff_duffy]

I like the old one better;)

Well, I would argue that there have been some major changes to RD design. Yes, they all still use a parallelogram to some degree but beyond that a modern RD is very different than its predecessors.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_atrK-jBKJKY/Sz_13RSQcBI/AAAAAAAAKTY/1jbbaMrgCAc/s400/Campy+GS+2+made+from+brass.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcRedK8GjEtStq-_bDI7j64gaAN9UI3vbetB9js_WJsX01654IP_yfWC6x3RthWFi t5FqilCohD_&usqp=CAE