CX tubeless curious...

[Lewis Moon]

So... I hate tubeless sealant. Really hate the mess, but today I raced the Chino Grinder 62 and had two pinch flats. I lost close to 10 minutes due to my suspect skill when it comes to changing tubes when you're road blasted.
So... What are the pros and cons of CX tubeless... For a guy who hates the sealant mess.

[charliedid]

Not CX but...

For a minute last week I pondered what it would be like to run my road bike tubeless. I followed Dromen's thread and we chatted. I then woke up in a cold sweat two nights ago and jumped out of bed. I ran down and checked my bike and the tubes were thankfully still there.

CX does seem a bit more appropriate for tubeless but maybe you just need to try a bit more air? :)

[BRad704]

At this point I'll only run my CX bike tubeless. Switched midseason last year after a pinch flat 100yrds after the bike pit. That was a long hike-a-bike.

My own experience, I can run whatever pressure I need to without needing to even consider pinch flats or how rooty/rocky a trail will be. The added puncture repairing ability is just bonus for me. With tubes I was constantly worried and over-thinking each inch of trail. Ymmv.

I'm using and really have liked the Bontrager cx3 tires with Stans Race Sealant. The race sealant seems to have some extra fibers in the mix, I'm assuming to help clog larger punctures.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[oldpotatoe]

So... I hate tubeless sealant. Really hate the mess, but today I raced the Chino Grinder 62 and had two pinch flats. I lost close to 10 minutes due to my suspect skill when it comes to changing tubes when you're road blasted.
So... What are the pros and cons of CX tubeless... For a guy who hates the sealant mess.

I think one of the biggest 'cons'....if that 'smack' caused a pinch flat with a tube, then there's a good chance you will 'burp' a tubeless setup..

Answer right below...

[Hellgate]

The answer is sewups.

[charliedid]

The answer is sewups.

You may be right.

[dem]

I've been really really stubborn at making tubeless work for me across all flavors of tires, because when it works.. it is magic.

My conclusions are there are two key factors: 1) pressure, lower pressure is far more likely to be successful in sealing (<60 PSI) and 2) carcass, ultra thin carcasses with zero belt protection make holes more difficult to seal - I assume a combination of holes being bigger, plus less meat for the goo to grab onto.

So I'd say if you're running a normal volume tire (33-38ish) in a reasonable configuration (not some ultra light super thin tread) I'd give you a 99.9% chance of magic.

(I just gave up on a set of Specialized Triggers after 4000+ miles and they have holes all over, worn out weeping sidewalls.. hell.. chunks of tread are missing.. but they still hold air and never required a plug!)

[Lewis Moon]

The answer is sewups.

Hadn't really occurred to me but that makes sense. Wish there were more choices for tires in bigger than UCI sizes and tread patterns that were more specific to gravel.

[rockdude]

Tubeless has came a long way but if your serious about racing, you need the ability to run low pressure and the reliability of a tubular.

[Lewis Moon]

I've been really really stubborn at making tubeless work for me across all flavors of tires, because when it works.. it is magic.

My conclusions are there are two key factors: 1) pressure, lower pressure is far more likely to be successful in sealing (<60 PSI) and 2) carcass, ultra thin carcasses with zero belt protection make holes more difficult to seal - I assume a combination of holes being bigger, plus less meat for the goo to grab onto.

So I'd say if you're running a normal volume tire (33-38ish) in a reasonable configuration (not some ultra light super thin tread) I'd give you a 99.9% chance of magic.

(I just gave up on a set of Specialized Triggers after 4000+ miles and they have holes all over, worn out weeping sidewalls.. hell.. chunks of tread are missing.. but they still hold air and never required a plug!)

I was running Vittoria Terrenos which I REALLY like. At 40lbs they ride like buttah. I already have tubeless ready rims so I may experiment.

[Lewis Moon]

Tubeless has came a long way but if your serious about racing, you need the ability to run low pressure and the reliability of a tubular.

I usually only race a couple of times a year but doing an exploratory season of CX is on my bucket list.
At 6'4" and 200+lbs, I had no expectation of doing well in a gravel race with 4000 ft of climbing, but, after a stupid start where I was too timid to jump into the break when the pack split on the pavement run out, I would only lose one or two places on the climbs but pick up 6 or 7 on the rocky, washboard descents and flats. I got into the top 5 before the two flats killed me.

[Gummee]

The answer is sewups.

This

Tubulars are da bomb for riding gravel.

They're even better for racing CX! All the low pressure without the worry of burping.

For riding gravel, if you don't want tubulars, big tubeless (35+) tires not pumped up very high ride *almost* as good as tubulars. Almost.

M

[Lewis Moon]

This

Tubulars are da bomb for riding gravel.

They're even better for racing CX! All the low pressure without the worry of burping.

For riding gravel, if you don't want tubulars, big tubeless (35+) tires not pumped up very high ride *almost* as good as tubulars. Almost.

M

I can't run much bigger than 35 actual on the X-Fire. I can run 37 pretty easily on the RXC but I seem to gravitate to the Ridley for hard off-road. Probably a set up difference that I need to diagnose.

[dem]

Heh, I just happened to be pulling my Triggers off this morning to replace them.

Apparently I've been riding around with this in my tire (yes, that is a rusty nail)

http://www.haphazard.com/bikes/may2019/nailsm.jpg

[DfCas]

Tubeless cross did not work for me. Burping at the pressure I wanted to run was a never ending problem. For low pressure reliability tubulars still rule.

[peanutgallery]

I run a 700x38 tubeless on my crux. It's a sort of an all allroad with lots of dirt, gravel and trail getting ridden. 38psi everywhere ...and I've never flatted. It gets hucked and I've cleaned many an inappropriate rock garden

If you tape it up right, use the the correct rim/valve/tire, refresh the jism every few months...you'll never have an issue. Way easier than a tubular

[Hellgate]

You may be right.For true CX racing it is the only way to go. No pinch flats, run the correct pressure, no flatulence, no messy goo ( inside the tire at least), can ride a flat for a short distance.

The gravel stuff, I've no idea. I'd probably run a 28mm Corsa Control at about 75psi and call it a day.

[kppolich]

This season I saw more rolled tubulars than ever before racing CX.
I run tubeless PDX and MXPs. At 155lb they are just fine down to 23/25psi. If you can handle a bike and practice bigger obstacles and technical sections first, you shouldn’t be burping tubeless.

However, if you are heavy, a newb, or try to run 15PSI you’re asking for it.

Gravel- tubeless absolutely with stand race sealant if you are racing and want to forget about punch flats.

Road- if your city roads are crap and littered with glass and stuff - tubeless is your answer. Again, be smart with air pressure.

If you are making a mess with sealant, I’m sorry- but you are doing it wrong. I’ve setup 5 sets of wheels in the last few months and haven’t seen a drop hit the floor. Forget the valve stem, pour it in the tire and turn it 90 degrees. Then finish off the tire. But first, test the tire without sealant to make sure your tape, valve stems, and bead all look good.

[Rekalcitrant]

Tubeless for CX has come a long way in the past few years. If you want a very positive opinion about tubeless from someone who has raced it at the pro level, track down Dan Timmerman on social media. In my experience, details with tubeless rims and tires can still make a big difference. Burping isnt the issue it used to be, I think mostly because tubeless tires have just gotten better, although some rims do still seem prone to burping for some reason. Pinch flatting is still a worry, especially at low pressure, and here I think the rim design makes a big difference. It’s no accident that both Stans and forum sponsor NEXT are using shallow hookless beads for their CX and gravel rims. The NEXT Rule also has a wide, rounded bead thats less likely to punch through a tire. I’m 170+ and I’ve raced them in the low 20s psi for CX without mishap. What can still be a big nuisance is getting tires on and off and some tire/rim combinations just don’t want to pop into place and inflate. There are lots of tricks, of course, and it sounds like this issue is something driving attempts to standardize road tubeless, but I think this is part of the equation that can still be super frustrating.

[Lewis Moon]

OK, I think I'm going to try tubeless, because:
a) It shows a lot of promise when it comes to rolling low pressures w/o pinch flats and,
b) If it doesn't work, I can "recover" by just going back to tubes.

So, what are good tubeless rims rims (hookless?) Is there a good one stop primmer that shows how to set it up and gives tips and hacks? What pump set up will I need? What is the diff between tubeless and tubeless ready?

[Tony]

So... I hate tubeless sealant. Really hate the mess, but today I raced the Chino Grinder 62 and had two pinch flats. I lost close to 10 minutes due to my suspect skill when it comes to changing tubes when you're road blasted.
So... What are the pros and cons of CX tubeless... For a guy who hates the sealant mess.

There should not be a mess? I never have any messes setting up tubeless, do it all the time. Thinking your doing something wrong?

[Lewis Moon]

There should not be a mess? I never have any messes setting up tubeless, do it all the time. Thinking your doing something wrong?

The mess was because of stuff like my letting the valve rotate to the bottom (with sealant in my tubes) or...cleaning up EVERYTHING when I got a cut and basically got the bike and my a$$ spray painted with sealant.
I also got to watch a ride partner go through about 45 minutes of tire repair (plus 4 CO2 cartridges) prior to putting in a tube.

[redir]

I usually only race a couple of times a year but doing an exploratory season of CX is on my bucket list.
At 6'4" and 200+lbs, I had no expectation of doing well in a gravel race with 4000 ft of climbing, but, after a stupid start where I was too timid to jump into the break when the pack split on the pavement run out, I would only lose one or two places on the climbs but pick up 6 or 7 on the rocky, washboard descents and flats. I got into the top 5 before the two flats killed me.

You are the exact same size/weight as me and what I have found is that tubulars with higher pressure then 'normal' is the best way to go. I know that low pressure is the bomb for CX but normal peoples low pressure is not our kind of peoples low pressure. You still want to run them low but don't listen to normal recommendations ;)

[kppolich]

So, what are good tubeless rims rims (hookless?) Is there a good one stop primmer that shows how to set it up and gives tips and hacks? What pump set up will I need? What is the diff between tubeless and tubeless ready?

Tubeless Rims:
Basically everyone makes them now
Stans
HED+ Rims
DT Swiss
Zipp
Enve
Reynolds
Etc


Tubeless vs. Tubeless Ready
Tubeless setup rims have the rim tape installed, valve cores, tires, and sealant.
Tubeless ready rims have the correct bead type, but you'll need to supply some combination of your own tape and tubeless valve stems, tires, and sealant. Basically, they are ready- but you need to supply the finishing supplies.

Pump:
Depends on how easy the tires mount. Some people can set them up with a regular floor pump, others like to use a compressor to pop the bead.

Resource:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lKRYuaxLls

[rkhatibi]

I mounted a few tubeless setups aerobically and then got smart and purchased a proper pump. https://www.lezyne.com/product-fpumps-hv-pressovrdrive.php

Would also recommend having a stash of valve cores. They'll gum up after a while. https://www.jensonusa.com/Stans-NoTubes-Presta-Valve-Core

Other useful parts
https://www.jensonusa.com/Stans-NoTubes-Sealant-Injector-Syringe
https://www.jensonusa.com/Stans-NoTubes-Valve-Core-Remover

That's pretty much all I've needed to keep a tubeless system going.

fwiw, I pay the LBS to do the taping and first mount. Then it's 2-3 years depending on how many tires changes before that needs to be done again.

[tony_mm]

Good list! Thanks!

Do you ever have to change the taping in the rim?

[old fat man]

I'm all in on tubeless for all bikes including road, and that includes racing cat 3 or expert mtb at 180lbs.

Vittoria terreno 40mm tubeless are great tires for cx and adventure rides. I run them with pacenti and enve rims around 30 - 35 psi without issue.

Set them up, using a compressor or high power pump to get them seated, then unscrew the valve core and use a Stan's 2 ounce squeeze bottle to add the sealant. Reinstall the core. No mess.

[Lewis Moon]

What's the best tubeless tape? I have several rims taped up with some light blue stuff that said it was tubeless tape but it spooges all over the rim.

[JStonebarger]

For true CX racing it is the only way to go. No pinch flats, run the correct pressure, no flatulence, no messy goo ( inside the tire at least), can ride a flat for a short distance.

Tubulars pinch flat all the time. All those flats in pro-CX races? Those are pinch flats on tubulars.

Gravel is another thing, but everyone I know riding tubeless in CX is using higher psi and less supple tires than I do with clinchers or tubulars. I'd rather flat once in a while.

[Tony]

What's the best tubeless tape? I have several rims taped up with some light blue stuff that said it was tubeless tape but it spooges all over the rim.

Velocity velotape is my favorite. I change out tire frequently and eventually the bead of the tire grabs the tape and peels it away so have to retape. I've used different tapes and settled on this tape, works best and lasts better than most other I've tried.

[Gummee]

You are the exact same size/weight as me and what I have found is that tubulars with higher pressure then 'normal' is the best way to go. I know that low pressure is the bomb for CX but normal peoples low pressure is not our kind of peoples low pressure. You still want to run them low but don't listen to normal recommendations ;)For PSI: Start with the body weight divided by 7 formula and work from there.

M

[crankles]

for about 25 years, 100% of my CX wheels were tubular. Now it's 50/50. I mount mud tread tubulars for those muddy races were I really want to run 20 psi. The rest of the races, especially the loose gravel ones we have in norcal, I run tubeless with 28/30 psi. no burps. I'm running mostly on light-bicycle carbon hookless rims with a wide variety of tires.

Both road are also tubeless. Not going back to tubes.

[false_Aest]

If I were back in places where it was wet and muddy and snowy and icy I'd run tubulars. But I'm not. I'm in SoCal and tubeless has been perfect for riding here.

BWR was done on WTB Exposure 32 @ 40psi.

Rocky single-track in the Santa Monica Mountains are on WTB Riddler 37mm @ 30PSI

I could probably go down in pressure but I've definitely made contact with the rim over some stuff.

[redir]

For PSI: Start with the body weight divided by 7 formula and work from there.

M

That's very cool. In all the many years I've been racing cross I never heard taht one before. Doing the math it sounds about right on. That would be 28 psi for me and I usually go with 30.

[redir]

Tubulars pinch flat all the time. All those flats in pro-CX races? Those are pinch flats on tubulars.

Gravel is another thing, but everyone I know riding tubeless in CX is using higher psi and less supple tires than I do with clinchers or tubulars. I'd rather flat once in a while.

relatively speaking between clinchers and tubulars, tubulars pinch flat much less then clinchers. I don't know what you mean by 'all the time' but my experience, 25 years racing CX, says otherwise.

The old addage of tire pressure was you should be able to physically squeeze the tire with your hand and feel the rim below it. As I mentioned in this thread that doesn't work well for us big guys. But even for us big guys when out doing your warm up laps you should feel on the big bumps like roots for example the tire compress to the rim with tubular wheelsets. That would cause a pinch flat in clinchers.

[chiasticon]

tubeless is great for CX-style riding. I wouldn't race it though. I've seen too many excellent CX racers have their races ruined by burping. no matter how good of a bike handler you are and how much you dial in the pressure, the potential is always there that you'll hit an off-camber too hard or whatever and boom, you're running to the pits.

but if you just want to hit some gravel, trails or your local CX practice, yeah tubeless is great. for racing, get tubs.

[chiasticon]

That's very cool. In all the many years I've been racing cross I never heard taht one before. Doing the math it sounds about right on. That would be 28 psi for me and I usually go with 30.I think that's the Helen Wyman formula for psi, but I could be wrong. or I'm just attributing something to her that's been around longer...

personally, I find that formula yields a psi which is lower than what I would run, unless it was a hella muddy course without a lot of roots and rocks. also I prefer to pre-ride a course with a little extra psi than I may need. you can always stop and let a bit out if it's obviously too high; better than pre-riding with a mini-pump to add pressure!

[JStonebarger]

relatively speaking between clinchers and tubulars, tubulars pinch flat much less then clinchers. I don't know what you mean by 'all the time' but my experience, 25 years racing CX, says otherwise.

The old addage of tire pressure was you should be able to physically squeeze the tire with your hand and feel the rim below it. As I mentioned in this thread that doesn't work well for us big guys. But even for us big guys when out doing your warm up laps you should feel on the big bumps like roots for example the tire compress to the rim with tubular wheelsets. That would cause a pinch flat in clinchers.

Assuming you use latex tubes in the clinchers they're no less likely to flat than tubulars. It's the exact same mechanism: a very blunt rim through the tire casing pinching the tube to the point that it tears.

I weigh 175+ and never race clinchers above 25psi. Usually I can squeeze the tire to the rim. Occasionally I'll bottom out, but that doesn't often lead to a flat. Latex tubes, in clinchers and tubulars.

[redir]

It's my understanding that the 'walls' that make up the clincher mechanism and the braking surface of clincher rims is what actually causes the pinch flat. So when the tire compresses it has no place to go where as with tubulars there are no walls so the tire can bulge out side to side and take the hit without popping.

If that makes sense.

[Lewis Moon]

It's my understanding that the 'walls' that make up the clincher mechanism and the braking surface of clincher rims is what actually causes the pinch flat. So when the tire compresses it has no place to go where as with tubulars there are no walls so the tire can bulge out side to side and take the hit without popping.

If that makes sense.

...and most tubular rims have rounded shoulders on the rim, making it much less likely cutting pressure can be exerted at that point.

[notsew]

If I were back in places where it was wet and muddy and snowy and icy I'd run tubulars. But I'm not. I'm in SoCal and tubeless has been perfect for riding here.

BWR was done on WTB Exposure 32 @ 40psi.

Rocky single-track in the Santa Monica Mountains are on WTB Riddler 37mm @ 30PSI

I could probably go down in pressure but I've definitely made contact with the rim over some stuff.

Man, I murdered my Riddler (and probably my rim) on sunday rolling it at 35 on some single track. But that was probably due more to ****ty riding than anything else.

As far as cross goes. I race in the mud all the time. I went tubeless last year and for the most part had my tires in the low twenties and I've never burped. I guess i could go lower with tubulars, but that's not whats holding my racing career back. I'm a tubeless believer.

[chiasticon]

I weigh 175+ and never race clinchers above 25psi. Usually I can squeeze the tire to the rim. Occasionally I'll bottom out, but that doesn't often lead to a flat. Latex tubes, in clinchers and tubulars.weighing 150 and racing with latex tubes and clinchers, aired up to 25psi, I rolled the tire clean off the rim. race over. end of my clincher racing CX career.

[Lewis Moon]

weighing 150 and racing with latex tubes and clinchers, aired up to 25psi, I rolled the tire clean off the rim. race over. end of my clincher racing CX career.

I'm starting to see the benefits of running tubeless rims, even with tubes. The shoulders in the rim make the tire bead fit tighter all the way around, which should make it harder to roll off (or burp).

[JStonebarger]

https://www.velocityusa.com/images/made/files/uploads/A23_3_422_450.png

https://www.velocityusa.com/images/made/files/uploads/Major_Tom_1_450_381.png

These are the two rims I use. Honestly, the clincher looks less "sharp" than the tubular. Either will pinch flat, though, if the pressure is enough to tear the tube. (This is why latex flats less, it's stretchier than butyl.)

I have rolled clinchers too. But then, tubeless, tubular, and clinchers all find ways to fail.

[redir]

I actually rolled a clincher in a cross race once too. I ended up face down next to the wheel and the tube bulged out and blew up in my face and scared thes shizz outta me LOL.

[Gummee]

I actually rolled a clincher in a cross race once too. I ended up face down next to the wheel and the tube bulged out and blew up in my face and scared thes shizz outta me LOL.

Too bad there's no video evidence. The look on your face had to be 'special.'

I've had exactly ONE of my tubulars roll over the years I've been riding and racing them. I lent a wheel to one of my co-workers. He rode like Mongo into a basically vertical berm at an angle. Same guy managed to pinch flat a tubular. Only time I've ever seen that too.

I've got a punctured LAS in the garage with sealant in it right now. 2nd I've sliced in the last few years of riding LASes on gravel rides. The sealant's mostly holding PSI. That tire is going to be replaced with another LAS 'soon' and be retired to a spare.

Before tubeless was a thing, I'd get about a flat a ride on clinchers. It's few and far between on tubulars, so I kept riding them. I've got a pair of tubeless wheels set up with G-Ones that do pretty well. Rode those at Hilly Billy last year. No problems again.

You should have seen the look on the guys' faces when they asked me how many flats at my 1st HBR: None. What tires you running? Tufo Dry 32 tubulars. TUBULARS?! It was priceless.

Ran the same pair of wheels and tires the 1st 3-4 HBRs I rode. Then I tried a pair of 30c slicks. That was too small. :nod Dented my Mach 2 Ceramic. Went back with LASes mounted the next year. Last year was the 1st on tubeless. They don't ride as nice as tubulars, but they seem to be OK

M

[Lewis Moon]

Just wanted to check back in; I went tubeless. It was pretty straight forward since I had a compressor to set the bead.
So... What does everyone carry for tire repair? How often should I re-up the goo during the summer in Arizona?

[Gummee]

Just wanted to check back in; I went tubeless. It was pretty straight forward since I had a compressor to set the bead.
So... What does everyone carry for tire repair? How often should I re-up the goo during the summer in Arizona?

I carry a small bottle of Stan's as well as the usual other stuff. Every once in a great while, I'll need it

AFA re-doing the sealant: yes. You'll have to re-do the sealant. How often is very dependent.

M

[dem]

Dynaplug is the fastest emergency plug, especially if you get a non-sealing hole you want to catch before having to reinflate. The Genuine Innovations "bacon strips" also work, but take longer to get set up.

I don't carry any extra sealant - a plug will beat sealant if necessary.

I find the LESS you ride the more often you have to add goo, so depends a lot on how often you ride and if you're on Tubeless Ready (non-sealed carcass) or True Tubeless (sealed carcass) tires.

1 ounce every 3 months is probably a good start. You can use a narrow zip tie as a dip stick down the valve stem to measure how much goo you have pooled in the bottom of the tire.

[tony_mm]

What about the finish line sealant which doesn’t dry?
https://bikerumor.com/2018/02/12/interview-how-finish-line-developed-an-entirely-new-mtb-tire-sealant/
Or the Slime sealant?

[Lewis Moon]

Dynaplug is the fastest emergency plug, especially if you get a non-sealing hole you want to catch before having to reinflate. The Genuine Innovations "bacon strips" also work, but take longer to get set up.

I don't carry any extra sealant - a plug will beat sealant if necessary.

I find the LESS you ride the more often you have to add goo, so depends a lot on how often you ride and if you're on Tubeless Ready (non-sealed carcass) or True Tubeless (sealed carcass) tires.

1 ounce every 3 months is probably a good start. You can use a narrow zip tie as a dip stick down the valve stem to measure how much goo you have pooled in the bottom of the tire.

The bike these are on is a bit of a "weekend warrior" bike. I can't really ride dirt during the week. I'll spin the tires a bit a couple of times in between...
I'm thinking: spare tube and irons (just in case), some boot material, preglued patches, CO2 carts and head, plugger, 2oz of sealer in case it dried out.

[dem]

What about the finish line sealant which doesn’t dry?
https://bikerumor.com/2018/02/12/interview-how-finish-line-developed-an-entirely-new-mtb-tire-sealant/
Or the Slime sealant?

TOTAL bust.. could not seal the smallest holes.. continuous weeping from beads and sidewall.. avoid avoid avoid.

I know of no one who made it work successfully, including me. (yes, I really should write up all my tubeless follies into a single post :)

[dem]

The bike these are on is a bit of a "weekend warrior" bike. I can't really ride dirt during the week. I'll spin the tires a bit a couple of times in between...
I'm thinking: spare tube and irons (just in case), some boot material, preglued patches, CO2 carts and head, plugger, 2oz of sealer in case it dried out.

Sounds good - that's pretty much what I carry minus the extra goo, I'd definitely go with the dynaplug first and keep it handy. Without a plug and if you get a hole that goo can't seal, you're in for a fun time changing a tube with a big ol mess of sealant.. super not fun. Dynaplug you stab it in and you're back on the road.

Also: CO2 will destroy the latex sealant (it does not deal well with the cold of CO2) so once you zap a tubeless tire with CO2 to get home, you really should also replace the goo.

So ideally, whipping out the Dynaplug when a hole won't seal is your fastest/best way home.

[capsized_cross]

I also always carry an extra bottle of stars and a tube just in case(for mr or friend),
been curious to try Dynaplug, but yet to have had a single issue with any of my
tubeless setups outside of burping...

[old fat man]

The 2 oz Stan's sample bottles are great to carry. Tape a plastic valve core remover to the bottle so you can inject it.