somewhat OT: hiking w/ loaded packs as x-training?

[wallymann]

for the last month (and the next month) wifey and i have been training to do the grand canyon rim2rim hike (easy program, staying overnight @ bottom). i've really enjoyed our training hikes with loaded packs, the day-after soreness in my legs/ass seems to be somewhat relevant to cycling muscle recruitment (moreso than running for instance).

i also like the side-benefit of core/torso muscle recruitment. seems i've been over-doing it with pack-weight...this week its been with a 20# pack and a buddy who hiked last year in nepal said his pack for that event was 20#!

anyway, really enjoying it...while certainly not as good as actual riding, wondering of anyone else finds that loaded hiking helps their cycling at all. i can see adding this to my offseason x-training program.

[Black Dog]

for the last month (and the next month) wifey and i have been training to do the grand canyon rim2rim hike (easy program, staying overnight @ bottom). i've really enjoyed our training hikes with loaded packs, the day-after soreness in my legs/ass seems to be somewhat relevant to cycling muscle recruitment (moreso than running for instance).

seems i've been over-doing it with pack-weight...this week its' been with a 20# pack and a buddy who hiked last year in nepal said his pack for that event was 20#! i also like the side-benefit of core/torso muscle recruitment.

anyway, really enjoying it...while certainly not as good as actual riding, wondering of anyone else finds that loaded hiking helps their cycling at all.

It certainly builds leg strength and if you push your pace you will get a good cardio workout too. 20 pounds is not a lot of weight if you have a good pack. Better to train with more weight than you will be carrying on your hike. You will enjoy the hike so much more if you are not suffering. Remember that descending with a load is way harder on your legs than climbing. Especially your quads.

[teleguy57]

check out Uphill Athlete. (https://www.uphillathlete.com/) Deep into endurance sport, including training some of the current US Nordic athletes. Very thoughtful and science-based.

Wish I knew them back in my 20s vs learning about them in my 60s when my knees don't like a lot of this oh-so-fun stuff....

[Peter P.]

I hike weekly in my local park doing trail maintenance (https://hubbardpark.blogspot.com/). My minimum backpack load is 16lbs., 30lbs. if I carry my chainsaw.

2-3 hours of hiking, and I don't see any reason to go for a bike ride-the hike has taken any energy needed for the ride and quite frankly, I feel like I've gotten a workout.

The problem is, that hike takes away time from one possible bike ride per week and I worried about losing cycling fitness. Despite the lost ride, I feel no loss of endurance or speed on the bike.

So yes; I think hiking is a good SUPPLEMENT to cycling, or it at least maintains a baseline fitness that translates well to cycling.

[45K10]

I also find hiking to be good cross training for cycling and a great way to cut weight. If I go on a 3-4 day backpacking trip I will normally drop 5-10 pounds easy.

[bigbill]

I walk around 16 miles a week. I have a nice loop from my house with around 500 feet of elevation change. I wear my camelbak day pack with around 3# of water plus another 10 pounds of sand weights. I'm doing it for a trip at the end of the month to Labyrinth Canyon. I've got to make sure my cycling legs will hike.

I've really learned to enjoy my walks, especially after a stressful day. I'll keep doing them after the trip.

[Dave Ferris]

When I was out for 10 months from running with a fractured sacrum/pelvis, I walked everyday - 75-90 minutes.

About 3 months into walking, I started using a weighted vest. I've used them in the past while running but I was in my mid 40s , 20 years ago. Don't think I need to go "there" again at almost 66. Just running is enough of a challenge these days.

10 lbs. doesn't sound like a lot but with the vest, it definitely kicks your heart rate up, especially on the hills. I've tried a pack hiking before but I prefer the vest. It's not as bulky and you have total freedom with regard to arm swing.

You can really load up on the weight. I've seen some that go to 30 or more lbs. It really is an eye opener when you take the vest off- you think...geez if I could lose 10 or 15 lbs., think how much easier running would be.

It fits so snug, yet not cumbersome, you can do yard work, wear around the house while cleaning , run errands, whatever, and burn a few extra calories. Basically after you get used to it, you don't even notice that it's on. Highly recommended.

There are many weighted vests on the market, I used the Smart Vest. , which is now under the "Smart Gear Training" heading.
https://www.smartgeartraining.com/

Not to be confused with a medical group that bought the name "Smart Vest" and now markets for Bronchiectasis.
https://smartvest.com/airway-clearance/#bronchiectasis

I know it's not "activity specific" since you will be using a pack on your hike, but it's something to consider for boosting your strength.

[11.4]

Go to Goruck's website and read around there and about rucking on Reddit. Tons of information. That's all about packing anywhere from 15 to 45 lbs of weight on your back, plus water and food and stuff, for long daily hikes of up to 20+ miles. They tend not to be big elevation hikes, but you can find crowds to hike with who want to do 10-20 miles on a Saturday and will carry at least as much as you're contemplating.

As for weight, there are ultra lightweight freaks in hiking just as there are in cycling. I've through-hiked the PCT and AT, end to end, and done several trial sections multiple times with different weight packs. My preference in the end is to carry a little more, partly because I'm strong and have the endurance to carry them and I don't mind the bit of extra weight in exchange for some luxuries. That means I'd pack around 35-40 lbs (a really luxurious sleeping pad, for instance, a decent water filter like an MSR Guardian, a GPS, a camera, a Kindle, and so on). There are plenty who do it in under 25 lbs. It's just a matter of what floats your boat. Remember that a route like the Grand Canyon can require a lot more water and more in first aid and such than some other routes, that you may have more support than some other groups, and so on. I'd suggest you not fixate on weight but choose what you need and then decide which is luxury versus necessary and decide how to pare it down accordingly. I did the AT with a Thermarest sleeping pad that was ok, then found the Sea to Summit deluxe pad and did the PCT with it. It was a pound more but was the best pound I ever hoisted on my back. I slept better every night. You'll have to make decisions like that for yourself.

[benb]

Semi-OT but I would recommend reading "Over the Edge: Death in the Grand Canyon" by Michael P. Ghiglieri & Thomas M. Myers, lots of really important insights in that book. Their book on Yosemite is really great too.. lots of information in those books that could be irrelevant based on your activity but still important. (E.x. if you're not Base Jumping or Rock Climbing in Yosemite those chapters are interesting but don't affect you directly)

So many people have died doing this hike due to water issues. I don't think the amount of water the authors recommend fits within 20lbs.

I am seeing 1 gal/day (8.3lbs) recommended online and you're talking about 2 days. So you're near 17lbs assuming nothing else carried. IIRC the authors think 1 gal/day is not a safe amount anyway.

If there is water on the route that changes a lot but the authors talk about people lots of people who died when something goes wrong and their water refill suddenly wasn't possible.

Haven't hiked there, and I haven't hiked nearly as much as I'd like (bicycling taking up way too much time over the years!) but Hiking is always a killer workout.

I think cycling gives you killer ability to go uphill hiking but doesn't help at all downhill. I remember hiking Mt. Monadnock years ago with an AT through hiker when I was in excellent cycling shape. I had no trouble keeping up with him uphill.. I had no chance going downhill. Totally different set of muscle requirements as cycling only stresses the quads when they are shortening. Mt. Monadnock is pretty easy but still takes a long time and is plenty of a workout.

The last few years I had cycling requirements that forced me to ride big miles in the rain.. multiple times riding 50+ miles in rain, or 50+ miles in rain when the temp was sub-40 degrees. I would WAY rather hike through those conditions I guess. We're having a wet & cold spring and since I have no cycling requirement I'm doing all I can to do other stuff on cold rainy days.

[wallymann]

we are taking the "easy" program and sticking to the south rim. the national parks recommends 3L/person water carriage.


we hike down via south kaibab trail on 1 day, stay overnight in the phantom-ranch dorms.

then hike out via bright angel trail on day-2, there are several water-refill stops on this route.


lately it seems the big risk is wandering off the trail to take selfies in places one shouldnt be going.

Semi-OT but I would recommend reading "Death in the Grand Canyon".

So many people have died doing this hike due to water issues. I don't think the amount of water the authors recommend fits within 20lbs.

I am seeing 1 gal/day (8.3lbs) recommended online and you're talking about 2 days. So you're near 17lbs assuming nothing else carried. IIRC the authors think 1 gal/day is not a safe amount anyway.

If there is water on the route that changes a lot but the authors talk about people lots of people who died when something goes wrong and their water refill suddenly wasn't possible.

[redir]

I don't think it will have any benefit to cycling at all. Least I find none from running anyway and that's a similar muscle group to hiking. I will say though that it's a darn good idea to get in a bit of hiking shape for doing that canyon hike. It seems easy but there is a LOT of elevation gain on that hike. Going down is actually what hurts me more then going up.

[bigbill]

we are taking the "easy" program and sticking to the south rim. the national parks recommends 3L/person water carriage.


we hike down via south kaibab trail on 1 day, stay overnight in the phantom-ranch dorms.

then hike out via bright angel trail on day-2, there are several water-refill stops on this route.


lately it seems the big risk is wandering off the trail to take selfies in places one shouldnt be going.

I did a raft trip in June of 2017 and it was 110 degrees at Phantom Ranch but 78 at the top of the rim. But it was a dry heat. On the raft trip, I was consuming at least a gallon of water a day plus several ounces of bourbon and morning coffee (with bourbon). I'm heading to Labryinth Canyon in a few weeks and it won't be as hot but I still plan on consuming a gallon a day. I felt like I was in a constant state of slight dehydration in the GC.

As far as Bright Angel, I believe it was last year that a woman was hiking with her kids and ran out of water. She put her kids in the shade and went off looking for water. She wandered off the trail at some point and they found her a few days later dead of exposure. I think the kids were ok. People get stupid when they don't prepare.

[benb]

I don't think it will have any benefit to cycling at all. Least I find none from running anyway and that's a similar muscle group to hiking. I will say though that it's a darn good idea to get in a bit of hiking shape for doing that canyon hike. It seems easy but there is a LOT of elevation gain on that hike. Going down is actually what hurts me more then going up.

Going down is what I was referencing.. hiking downhill is like running for me. No amount of cycling will ever make it easier.

[GregL]

I find hiking, particularly strenuous, technical hiking, to be very beneficial to cycling performance. One of my best bike race performances in the past few years took place one week after a family vacation that included daily technical hiking. Technical hiking (lots of rock scrambling, steep inclines/declines, lots of rocks and roots, etc...) is great for balance and seldom-used balance muscles. Steep climbs and brisk pace are great cardio. Trying to keep up with my very fit, petite teenage daughter up steep hiking trails is like chasing a TdF climber up an alpine road - I'll never catch up, but it's one heck of a workout!

Greg

[wallymann]

I don't think it will have any benefit to cycling at all. Least I find none from running anyway and that's a similar muscle group to hiking....

for me, running is only good for lungs/heart development.

but hiking up steep inclines (i.e., essentially stair-climbing), seems to recruit many of the same muscles in the same way as turning the pedals on the bike -- i certainly feel sore in the same ways the next day, as well!

[mhespenheide]

for me, running is only good for lungs/heart development.


Run faster and run hills. :fight:

[HenryA]

Walking is good for you, its how we are made to get around. The more weight and more up and down may be even better as long as its not too much or too hard without acclimating to it. I think it very much counts as cross training for cycling or any other sport. I am very sure that plenty of walking is good for my back health, so I do it regularly.

Have fun in the canyon, its really something.

[Black Dog]

for me, running is only good for lungs/heart development.

And getting away from large bears. :eek:

[djg]

Go to Goruck's website and read around there and about rucking on Reddit. Tons of information. That's all about packing anywhere from 15 to 45 lbs of weight on your back, plus water and food and stuff, for long daily hikes of up to 20+ miles. They tend not to be big elevation hikes, but you can find crowds to hike with who want to do 10-20 miles on a Saturday and will carry at least as much as you're contemplating.

As for weight, there are ultra lightweight freaks in hiking just as there are in cycling. I've through-hiked the PCT and AT, end to end, and done several trial sections multiple times with different weight packs. My preference in the end is to carry a little more, partly because I'm strong and have the endurance to carry them and I don't mind the bit of extra weight in exchange for some luxuries. That means I'd pack around 35-40 lbs (a really luxurious sleeping pad, for instance, a decent water filter like an MSR Guardian, a GPS, a camera, a Kindle, and so on). There are plenty who do it in under 25 lbs. It's just a matter of what floats your boat. Remember that a route like the Grand Canyon can require a lot more water and more in first aid and such than some other routes, that you may have more support than some other groups, and so on. I'd suggest you not fixate on weight but choose what you need and then decide which is luxury versus necessary and decide how to pare it down accordingly. I did the AT with a Thermarest sleeping pad that was ok, then found the Sea to Summit deluxe pad and did the PCT with it. It was a pound more but was the best pound I ever hoisted on my back. I slept better every night. You'll have to make decisions like that for yourself.

The point about water seems so obvious but often is overlooked: one really, really wants enough, and it really does add weight.

I've never through-hiked the AT, although I've done pieces. Doing a Philmont trek (BSA in the NM mountains -- 11 days on the trail) well into middle-age, I definitely juggled the light weight vs comfort/recovery issue. For a sleeping pad, a combination can work -- for example, a light-ish (but not ultralight) Big Agnes pad that fit into the sleeve in my BA bag PLUS the short version of a Thermarest sol light pad. The second pad adds about 10 oz. and a little bulk, but it protects the air pad, adds insulation, and provides a handy mat for aging knees to kneel on when called for. I think BA also markets foam over-pads that might add comfort for car camping (seemed heavy for backpacking when last I looked). I was also pretty glad that I sprung the $ (and pound) for a Helinox chair zero.

For those shopping -- price can fluctuate, as you have guessed -- all kinds of things might go on sale here or there. If you've got a budget in mind, it could pay to identify several things that might work and then hunt for a deal.

On the training thing -- yeah, loaded day hikes and even just an hour, loaded, up neighborhood hills in the evening really seemed to help.

[11.4]

One more point: Hiking mountains is superb for cycling but be sure of your posture. Keep your hips tucked in and be aware of using your glutes to push up with every step. If you lean forward or swing your ass backwards, you become a quadriceps hiker which leads to long term problems and also doesn't do anywhere near as much for your cycling. It's your glutes that you call on when you're in a sprint or punching up an ugly hill. And they are what you use when you hike uphill in an erect position with your hips tucked in.