Help with R8000 Front Derailleur set-up on my Firefly

[NHAero]

Arrgh, chain rubbing on the cage, and not only in extreme gears. Rubs very slightly in small front ring / large cog, and in the smallest 2-3 cogs and the large ring. The trim function on the shifter seems to move the derailleur cage a tiny amount compared with my sense of what is "normal."

I've followed the Shimano dealer manual instructions very carefully step by step. Distance between cage and teeth, about 2mm; cage aligned with outer face of the big ring; tension screw adjusted so that the two lines line up when the shifter is in "trim" position; cable installed as shown; two limit screws adjusted as Shimano instructs, with chain on the large cassette cog, and each limit screw adjusted when the chain is on each front ring (see attachment). Then I tried the Joey Mesa video, in which he is adjusting the big ring limit screw so the chain doesn't rub on the outer side of the cage (Shimano shows the top adjustment being done with the chain big-big, which doesn't make sense to me, but I tried that first).

Shifter is brand new Dura Ace 9100. Crank is SRAM Red 11 speed with SRAM 11 speed chainrings 46-34. Rear derailleur is brand new Dura Ace 9100 (shifts up to the 34T cog just fine). I have the older RS685 11 speed hydro shifters on two bikes, with 10 speed CX70 cyclocross front derailleurs, and though set-up is fussy, managed to get them to not have chain rub. One crank is set-up 44-33, so similar differential to the Firefly, with the same 12-34 HG800 11 speed Ultegra cassette as the Firefly. The other is 42-28 up front and 11-40 on the back. Both with R8000GS rear derailleurs, the latter with a Wolftooth Roadlink DM.

I don't see how to eliminate the chain rub. The Firefly has a slightly more extreme chain angle because the chainstays are 413mm, whereas the Anderson has 435mm stays.

Guidance very much appreciated.

[Mzilliox]

dont know a thing about dura ace, but those are pretty average length stays. Im surprised the setup wuld cause issues. that being said i have not really dealt as much with smaller chain rings.

were there any issues with the other campy group? maybe indicate a bent hangar?

that bike is broken, pfffft, who has time for that?
send it to me.

[NHAero]

The Campy FD shifted the 46-24 fine and the trim is more noticeable.
I just rode the Litespeed home from work - I can really see the trim moving the cage on the CX70, vs. hardly moving on the R8000.

I can't send it to you because a) the shifting isn't perfect and b) shipping costs are probably more than the bike is worth now that the Campy group is gone

dont know a thing about dura ace, but those are pretty average length stays. Im surprised the setup wuld cause issues. that being said i have not really dealt as much with smaller chain rings.

were there any issues with the other campy group? maybe indicate a bent hangar?

that bike is broken, pfffft, who has time for that?
send it to me.

[eddief]

or the the normal cable adjusters? do you have the cable under the pinch bolt so that the cable adjuster hits on the other nub that pushes against the cable. i just did this with R7000, a bit tricky but somehow got it to work. And what about the other 2mm adjusting screw that keeps the FD from knocking against the seat tube? oh yeah, proper cable tension critical.

[NHAero]

The 2mm tension adjusting screw is used to align the two lines when the shifter is one trim notch down from fully to the outer ring. The cable is in the correct location such that the nub is against the tension adjust screw.

The normal cable adjusters don't appear to solve anything. I wonder if the derailleur cage isn't optimized for the 46T large ring, even though the R8000 crankset comes in chainring sizes all the way from 53-39 to 46-36 with 52-36 and 50-34 in between. That is a range from 10T to 16T difference, and I'm running 12T. Dunno. Tempted to grab the CX70 off the Anderson and see if I can make that work.

or the the normal cable adjusters? do you have the cable under the pinch bolt so that the cable adjuster hits on the other nub that pushes against the cable. i just did this with R7000, a bit tricky but somehow got it to work. And what about the other 2mm adjusting screw that keeps the FD from knocking against the seat tube? oh yeah, proper cable tension critical.

[jtbadge]

I'd try the CX70.

In spite of all of the praise heaped on the FD-R8000 derailleur, I find it less intiutive to set up that the 6800, and I never got the R8000 to shift right on my 46/34 Ultegra crank. It does a lot better on the Praxis 48/32.

The Shimano instructions (https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-RAFD001-02-ENG.pdf) are okay, the best thing for tension is to make sure that the little lines match up when you're in the big ring (cross-chain) trim position - see page 18.

[NHAero]

I was fine with that portion of the instructions. The mystery to me is why the top adjustment is made big-big.
When you say "shift right" do you mean shifting up and down the two chainrings, or did you have cage rub issues? Mine is shifting smoothly, but rubs in useful gears.

I'd try the CX70.

In spite of all of the praise heaped on the FD-R8000 derailleur, I find it less intiutive to set up that the 6800, and I never got the R8000 to shift right on my 46/34 Ultegra crank. It does a lot better on the Praxis 48/32.

The Shimano instructions (https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-RAFD001-02-ENG.pdf) are okay, the best thing for tension is to make sure that the little lines match up when you're in the big ring (cross-chain) trim position - see page 18.

[jtbadge]

By the time I got it to shift well to the 46t big ring, it would always rub at both ends of the cassette. I can't say whether that was due to the big ring being too small, or if I just had it set up poorly and did better after installing a different crank.

[eddief]

not seated in the shifter correctly? done that before myself.

[NHAero]

worth a look!
not seated in the shifter correctly? done that before myself.

[eddief]

but your situation sounds like something is way off since you are getting so much noise. also I found that when I ran the housing into the shifter slot that slot was really tight and it took a couple of shifts to pull the housing all way into the slot...and then more cable fiddling after that.

worth a look!

[BobC]

Funnily enough I had the same issues last week (Full disclosure: I have always used Campy, first time using shimano)

Here is how I solved it:
For the Big Ring/Top Adjustment/"H":
- Put it in the 53x11 (NOT the 53x25). Turned the "H" limit screw clockwise until there was no rubbing. Worked

For the Little Ring/"L"

- Put it in the 39x25. Adjusted the "L" limit screw until there was no rubbing. Worked

Unless I am missing something really basic, logically this really should be the way the limit screws are set.

Couple other things to be mindful: I left that little pink plastic label on to ensure I had the proper gap between chainring & FD. Also I triple checked that the FD lined up perfectly with the chainring.

Good luck! When it finally works, it truly does work. Took me about 3 days of riding to tweak it

[NHAero]

The method you used is what Joey Mesa shows on his video and what I tried last - because it makes more sense to me as well. I will fiddle one more time, because I think I did a very careful job, twice, with the initital setup of gap, alignment, and tension screw adjustment, then try another FD. Shouldn't need to be so fussy, dunno what Shimano thought they were accomplishing.

Funnily enough I had the same issues last week (Full disclosure: I have always used Campy, first time using shimano)

Here is how I solved it:
For the Big Ring/Top Adjustment/"H":
- Put it in the 53x11 (NOT the 53x25). Turned the "H" limit screw clockwise until there was no rubbing. Worked

For the Little Ring/"L"

- Put it in the 39x25. Adjusted the "L" limit screw until there was no rubbing. Worked

Unless I am missing something really basic, logically this really should be the way the limit screws are set.

Couple other things to be mindful: I left that little pink plastic label on to ensure I had the proper gap between chainring & FD. Also I triple checked that the FD lined up perfectly with the chainring.

Good luck! When it finally works, it truly does work. Took me about 3 days of riding to tweak it

[BobC]

The method you used is what Joey Mesa shows on his video and what I tried last - because it makes more sense to me as well. I will fiddle one more time, because I think I did a very careful job, twice, with the initital setup of gap, alignment, and tension screw adjustment, then try another FD. Shouldn't need to be so fussy, dunno what Shimano thought they were accomplishing.

One other thing I used as a guide:
I also looked straight down at the alignment when in the small ring: the FD outer guide should line up with the big ring. I noticed the first couple times it was slightly inside after a long ride. I adjusted the "H" clockwise a quarter turn, took a quick ride & repeated at the end of a ride. Like I said, it took about 3 days but I got it tweaked finally.

[NHAero]

Are you saying that the "H" adjustment straightened the cage out? Or do you mean the jack screw that pushes against the frame or band clamp?

One other thing I used as a guide:
I also looked straight down at the alignment when in the small ring: the FD outer guide should line up with the big ring. I noticed the first couple times it was slightly inside after a long ride. I adjusted the "H" clockwise a quarter turn, took a quick ride & repeated at the end of a ride. Like I said, it took about 3 days but I got it tweaked finally.

[BobC]

"H" Limit screw. I never touched anything but the "H" & "L"

[NHAero]

OK, thanks!

"H" Limit screw. I never touched anything but the "H" & "L"

[donalrey]

can we see pics of your Firefly tho? :banana:

[NHAero]

This was Joachim's by way of Ari. It's a 2014.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=234796

can we see pics of your Firefly tho? :banana:

[dddd]

Anyone setting up one of these newer 9100, 8000 or 7000 front derailers needs to know that these derailers have no hi-limit screw.

The "L" screw is indeed a lo-limit screw, but the "H" screw is a "boost" screw (my own term) that increases the outward throw in response to the screw being tightened (CW).

Note that the physical hi-limit is now built into the lever, not the derailer, so the actual adjusted limit of travel is now a function of both the cable tension and the "H" or "boost" adjustment.

Trying to adjust one of these without understanding exactly how it works would seem to mean relying more on the following of directions (not supplied with any of these derailers btw, lol).

[NHAero]

Thank you for your response.
I've been calling the "H" screw a "jack" screw because what I think it does is move where the cage ends up for a given cable travel at the shifter (are you saying the same thing?) But it doesn't appear to increase the travel of the cage - if I jack the cage outwards to avoid rub in the big ring small cog position, it means rub happens in more of the larger cogs as the chain stays on the big ring but shifts up the cassette. In other words, cage travel is a fixed amount based on shifter actuation.

If I'm misunderstanding this, and you can explain exactly what is occurring I'd be very grateful. There are directions (I attached the most befuddling page to my original post) and then there are videos that conflict with the directions.

Anyone setting up one of these newer 9100, 8000 or 7000 front derailers needs to know that these derailers have no hi-limit screw.

The "L" screw is indeed a lo-limit screw, but the "H" screw is a "boost" screw (my own term) that increases the outward throw in response to the screw being tightened (CW).

Note that the physical hi-limit is now built into the lever, not the derailer, so the actual adjusted limit of travel is now a function of both the cable tension and the "H" or "boost" adjustment.

Trying to adjust one of these without understanding exactly how it works would seem to mean relying more on the following of directions (not supplied with any of these derailers btw, lol).

[prototoast]

I am in the process of trying to set up an r7000 front derailleur for the first time today. Wow, this thing is annoying.

I just can't really figure out what Shimano is doing with their front derailleurs. It's been 15 years since they came out with the 7800 series. That was a piece of cake to set up and shifted perfectly. Since then, they just seem to be making things harder and harder to set up and get right.

[jtakeda]

Thank you for your response.
I've been calling the "H" screw a "jack" screw because what I think it does is move where the cage ends up for a given cable travel at the shifter (are you saying the same thing?) But it doesn't appear to increase the travel of the cage - if I jack the cage outwards to avoid rub in the big ring small cog position, it means rub happens in more of the larger cogs as the chain stays on the big ring but shifts up the cassette. In other words, cage travel is a fixed amount based on shifter actuation.

If I'm misunderstanding this, and you can explain exactly what is occurring I'd be very grateful. There are directions (I attached the most befuddling page to my original post) and then there are videos that conflict with the directions.

***. Those directions are so confusing. I don’t have much to offer but support. Those instructions are useless and I hope you can figure this out.

[BobC]

Shimano calls the "H" the "top adjustment" screw.
Over-engineered? You bet. But once I understood what Shimano was doing, the adjustment was pretty straightforward.
1. Start with in the 53x11.
2. Adjust the "H" until it doesn't rub (Prob clockwise to go "outward")
3. Optest in all gear options
4. Repeat as necessary with slight adjustments

Again my personal experience was that in the 39x11 with the front lever clicked all the way out, the outer FD edge lined up with the big chain ring. YMMV

[NHAero]

I put it back in the stand and fooled with it some more. In the stand I think I have it working by a hair's breadth. And pretty much as you suggest. But darn it seems fussy. And if the cable stretches a weeny bit, back at it again?

Shimano calls the "H" the "top adjustment" screw.
Over-engineered? You bet. But once I understood what Shimano was doing, the adjustment was pretty straightforward.
1. Start with in the 53x11.
2. Adjust the "H" until it doesn't rub (Prob clockwise to go "outward")
3. Optest in all gear options
4. Repeat as necessary with slight adjustments

Again my personal experience was that in the 39x11 with the front lever clicked all the way out, the outer FD edge lined up with the big chain ring. YMMV

[P K]

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet.

These FD's don't like any cable drag or friction caused by poor routing or tight housing bends etc.

Also be sure to seat the housing and ferrules by pre-loading cable/housing so you aren't getting a loss of tension during use.

Just throwing out a couple more suggestions. I'm not really a big "toggle" fan, but I am a Shimano fan.

[NHAero]

Thanks for adding this. All new cable and housing and I don't think adverse routing. And I greased the cable where it lives in housing. None of the symptoms seem like poorly seated ferrules, good tip tho'.

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet.

These FD's don't like any cable drag or friction caused by poor routing or tight housing bends etc.

Also be sure to seat the housing and ferrules by pre-loading cable/housing so you aren't getting a loss of tension during use.

Just throwing out a couple more suggestions. I'm not really a big "toggle" fan, but I am a Shimano fan.

[BobC]

I put it back in the stand and fooled with it some more. In the stand I think I have it working by a hair's breadth. And pretty much as you suggest. But darn it seems fussy. And if the cable stretches a weeny bit, back at it again?

Really don't know about cable stretch, but logically that should not impact the "H", just cable tension.

[BobC]

I put it back in the stand and fooled with it some more. In the stand I think I have it working by a hair's breadth. And pretty much as you suggest. But darn it seems fussy. And if the cable stretches a weeny bit, back at it again?

And congrats. Glad to hear that it worked.