New Stoemper Framebuilder

[ikecycke]

Is it common knowledge that Todd Gardner is no longer the framebuilder for Stoemper?

Everything I have seen online still points to him heading up the building and painting, all the way up to an article on cyclingtips.com that's dated 3/1/19, so I was a bit surprised when a couple days ago they posted to Instagram a picture of a guy named Ben Oliver and said 'This is Ben. He's gonna build your Stoemper.' I knew they moved operations to Minneapolis around the start of the new year, but hadn't seen any mention of this change.

I'm interested because I placed an order for a Taylor Disc about a month ago, and am...not upset, but a little taken aback that the person I assumed was going to be building and painting my bike isn't. Part of the reason I went with Stoemper is due to Todd's 20 years of experience. To be fair, Ben may build a great bike, but I don't know anything about him outside of a tiny bit I was able to find on his LinkedIn profile.

Am I overthinking this? I keep telling myself it shouldn't be a big deal if I end up with a bike I love, but I can't help but feel a bit put off.

[madsciencenow]

I’d be more than a little put off if I were in your shoes. Not trying to get you upset but your points resonate with me and I’d at least want to be informed this was happening with some sort of email, call or other personal communication.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MattTuck]

Is the new guy a welder, or is going to be doing the whole thing from fit, design to fab and paint?

It does seem a bit like bait and switch if this never came up in your conversations with the previous builder, owner of the firm.

[ikecycke]

Is the new guy a welder, or is going to be doing the whole thing from fit, design to fab and paint?

It does seem a bit like bait and switch if this never came up in your conversations with the previous builder, owner of the firm.

I'm getting stock geometry, but he's doing fab and welding. Not sure on paint yet, I haven't contacted them because I wanted to digest this a bit before diving in more.

Stoemper has been a 2-man operation, and the business-end guy is still running the show (since that is who I've been communicating with), but it sounds like Todd sold his stake.

[jtakeda]

Before you get upset I think you should decide what you want.

Do you want your money back since Todd isn’t building? Something else?

I’d approach Stoemper with your concerns and asks. It’s likely this wasn’t a planned departure

That being said—I’d be upset if it were me. But I would talk to Stoemper and complain only if they refused to give me my money back.

[ikecycke]

Before you get upset I think you should decide what you want.

Do you want your money back since Todd isn’t building? Something else?

I’d approach Stoemper with your concerns and asks. It’s likely this wasn’t a planned departure

That being said—I’d be upset if it were me. But I would talk to Stoemper and complain only if they refused to give me my money back.

I guess I just factored Todd's building and painting into my calculus for deciding where to get a frame, so I'm not really sure what I want at this point. I am also partly curious on if it was public that Todd was leaving and I just missed it. In that case, I don't have much ground to stand on if I were to ask for a refund (to be clear, I haven't even gotten geometry to confirm from them, so work hasn't started on my frame, but I've put 50% down).

[fignon's barber]

Personally, I'd ask for a full refund today. And give you the courtesy to rethink your decision. They charge a premium for their product, and you're not getting what you invested in. IMO, it's like buying tickets to a Rolling Stones concert, and when you get there a cover band appears on stage. They may be swell musicians, but not what you signed up for. You deserve the chance to opt out.

[ikecycke]

Personally, I'd ask for a full refund today. And give you the courtesy to rethink your decision. They charge a premium for their product, and you're not getting what you invested in. IMO, it's like buying tickets to a Rolling Stones concert, and when you get there a cover band appears on stage. They may be swell musicians, but not what you signed up for. You deserve the chance to opt out.

Part of my hesitation in asking for a refund is that apparently this change took place a few months ago.

Looking at LinkedIn, Ben lists framebuilder for Stoemper beginning in November 2018. It's just that without it being public that Todd had left, how could I even know to look (plus Todd's LinkedIn profile still has builder for Stoemper listed)?

So it's not that I paid my deposit and then they switched builders, they switched builders 6 months ago but didn't advertise that fact. Hence my hesitation to really feel duped.

[velotrack]

i think if you went in without that information on the site/explicitly known, you have all the right to back out. i'd be a little peeved if i were you, too.

[macaroon]

Do you think you'd be able to tell a difference between a frame built by the old builder and a frame built by the new builder?

[ikecycke]

Do you think you'd be able to tell a difference between a frame built by the old builder and a frame built by the new builder?

Unlikely, but who knows? That's a big part of why I'm having difficulty with this. And the old guy did all the paint, so will the new frame come out looking as nice? It's a lot of money to put into a 'maybe'.

Todd has 20 years experience building and painting frames, the new guy has 1.

[charliedid]

Is it common knowledge that Todd Gardner is no longer the framebuilder for Stoemper?

Everything I have seen online still points to him heading up the building and painting, all the way up to an article on cyclingtips.com that's dated 3/1/19, so I was a bit surprised when a couple days ago they posted to Instagram a picture of a guy named Ben Oliver and said 'This is Ben. He's gonna build your Stoemper.' I knew they moved operations to Minneapolis around the start of the new year, but hadn't seen any mention of this change.

I'm interested because I placed an order for a Taylor Disc about a month ago, and am...not upset, but a little taken aback that the person I assumed was going to be building and painting my bike isn't. Part of the reason I went with Stoemper is due to Todd's 20 years of experience. To be fair, Ben may build a great bike, but I don't know anything about him outside of a tiny bit I was able to find on his LinkedIn profile.

Am I overthinking this? I keep telling myself it shouldn't be a big deal if I end up with a bike I love, but I can't help but feel a bit put off.

I know nothing about these guys or the brand beyond the name. That said I think you are totally justified in thinking the way you are regarding a bike you thought was being built by someone in particular and now it's not.

Like I said, I have zero knowledge of these guys but maybe it's also reasonable that when buying a frameset that is subcontracted....well, it's subcontracted. Anything in the "agreement" speak to any of this?

My gut says it will be fine and you'll get a good bike but I'm with you 100% on the current state of affairs.

Not sure if any of that helps. :-)

[MattTuck]

Do you think you'd be able to tell a difference between a frame built by the old builder and a frame built by the new builder?

It is an interesting rhetorical question, but I don't think that is relevant to the OP's decision.

[jtakeda]

Who knows, maybe if you voice your concern Todd will build it.

[macaroon]

Unlikely, but who knows? That's a big part of why I'm having difficulty with this. And the old guy did all the paint, so will the new frame come out looking as nice? It's a lot of money to put into a 'maybe'.

Todd has 20 years experience building and painting frames, the new guy has 1.

Wow, only 1 year?! I'm not saying the new builder isn't capable, but I thought some/alot of what you pay for a custom frame is the experience/knowledge of the builder.

I would expect to pay less for a frame built by someone who's only been at it a year.

The other side of the coin is that Stoemper is just a brand (presumably?) in the same way that Trek or Cannondale are. Heck, those two might use builders that've only been bulding for a year, but providing the end product is up to scratch, then it doesn't matter.

[ikecycke]

I know nothing about these guys or the brand beyond the name. That said I think you are totally justified in thinking the way you are regarding a bike you thought was being built by someone in particular and now it's not.

Like I said, I have zero knowledge of these guys but maybe it's also reasonable that when buying a frameset that is subcontracted....well, it's subcontracted. Anything in the "agreement" speak to any of this?

My gut says it will be fine and you'll get a good bike but I'm with you 100% on the current state of affairs.

Not sure if any of that helps. :-)

Hmm...I don't really think of this as a subcontractor situation. Up to this point, all Stoempers have been built by Todd, who was one of the founders of the brand.

[charliedid]

Hmm...I don't really think of this as a subcontractor situation. Up to this point, all Stoempers have been built by Todd, who was one of the founders of the brand.

Okay got it. Like I said I don't know anything about them and thought maybe it was a contract arrangement the way it was presented. Carry on and good luck.

[bicycletricycle]

This is an interesting issue. I think it would be reasonable to ask for a refund.

[John H.]

Ask for your $ back.
It sounds like it was a goal of yours to have your dream bike built by a one-man show frame builder with a lot of experience.

Now- This is no longer the case.

Ask for a refund- Order an aluminum bike from someone like Rock Lobster or Zanc.

[PoppaWheelie]

Just one of the chorus here, but if that new guy really has one year under his belt I'd personally back out. Will it break, bend, or fail? Maybe/probably not. But will it 100% fulfil the expectations of why you paid a premium price? You'd need to decide that one. I've had a number of custom bikes from inexperenced builders arrive with weird little issues. Bosses in the wrong place, alignment issues, steering weirdness, cranks that wouldn't clear the stays....it happens.

[Dino Suegiù]

Do you think you'd be able to tell a difference between a frame built by the old builder and a frame built by the new builder?

That's always the debate between founder/previous and successor/new builders, such as is happening for instance with Pegoretti now (and the Pegoretti lineage is far more established than this Stoemper lineage seems to be), but that isn't really the point.

The OP signed on for a Stoemper, and one would assume that deal would include the founder, the person who built the reputation, building the frame/etc., unless it was made very clear to him that that would not be the case. It seems that it was not communicated directly to the OP that a change was made, and that does not seem fair.

I think if one ordered a frame from David Kirk, Curt Goodrich, Dave Wages, Paul Sadoff, any other one-man builder with a stellar reputation, one would expect to receive a frame built by those guys, and certainly not by someone with 1 year of experience versus 20+.

The OP asking for a complete refund sounds much more than justified, in this case.

[Pegoready]

This is interesting.

I guess it really depends on if you think of Stoemper as a brand (I do, maybe out of ignorance) or a singular builder.

If you ordered a Serotta, you didn't get to pick the builder. You trusted the brand and their vetting of their machinists, welders, and painters to produce a consistent product.

If you ordered a Sachs, and all of a sudden you find out he sold the rights to his name to someone else who will build your frame, there's reason to be concerned.

Out of curiosity is it the same Ben in this article?

https://www.cxmagazine.com/pro-bike-profile-ben-berdens-stoemper-ronny

If so, he's at least had ties to the co. as far back as 2011.

[ikecycke]

This is interesting.

I guess it really depends on if you think of Stoemper as a brand (I do, maybe out of ignorance) or a singular builder.

If you ordered a Serotta, you didn't get to pick the builder. You trusted the brand and their vetting of their machinists, welders, and painters to produce a consistent product.

If you ordered a Sachs, and all of a sudden you find out he sold the rights to his name to someone else who will build your frame, there's reason to be concerned.

Out of curiosity is it the same Ben in this article?

https://www.cxmagazine.com/pro-bike-profile-ben-berdens-stoemper-ronny

If so, he's at least had ties to the co. as far back as 2011.

I guess I'd consider them a singular builder since he's built and painted every frame they've done up until now. I'm not sure I'm ready to be a guinea pig for the new builder since this is my maiden voyage going custom.

That's a different Ben. He's a Belgian cyclocross pro that rode their bike for a few years.

[KonaSS]

I think the solution here is to call and discuss with Stoemper, you know, like reasonable people do. Doesn't sound like they are trying to do anything shady, just an evolution of their business.

After to you talk to them, follow your gut. It sounds like you really wanted a frame built by Todd, so maybe you ask for a refund. But if they can convince you otherwise, you might just end up with a great Stoemper.

[charliedid]

I think the solution here is to call and discuss with Stoemper, you know, like reasonable people do. Doesn't sound like they are trying to do anything shady, just an evolution of their business.

After to you talk to them, follow your gut. It sounds like you really wanted a frame built by Todd, so maybe you ask for a refund. But if they can convince you otherwise, you might just end up with a great Stoemper.

I think that goes without saying.

[GOTHBROOKS]

a guy named lucas was the painter at stoemper in 2015.

[PacNW2Ford]

Fast forward to NAHBS 2039 when OG Ben Oliver frames are on eBay for $10k...

[pbarry]

Fast forward to NAHBS 2039 when OG Ben Oliver frames are on eBay for $10k...

IF he builds only 135 amazing frames and then retires..

[Andy sti]

They posted on their IG a couple days ago a picture of Ben and announcing he would be building your bike.

Not necessarily the OP's bike but your bike.:)

[ikecycke]

They posted on their IG a couple days ago a picture of Ben and announcing he would be building your bike.

Not necessarily the OP's bike but your bike.:)

Yup, that was how I found out that Todd wasn't building my bike.

[Blue Jays]

Attempted to contact the Stoemper folks several times a few months ago yet they did not return calls/emails...likely due to big ongoing changes. Hopefully everything works out terrific for the OP with a satisfactory solution.

[Imaking20]

Y'all seem pretty sensitive. The majority of bike and frame manufacturers out there - you don't know the name of THE person building the bike. Yet people survive - many even enjoy it!

I say don't stress so much - it's not worth the wasted energy. You're buying from a company - a brand, not a single man. Trust that the company will ensure the quality of product so that you don't have to. If the quality isn't there - then raise a flag - but don't raise a flag just because there is change. This is an inevitable part of life.

[velotrack]

Y'all seem pretty sensitive. The majority of bike and frame manufacturers out there - you don't know the name of THE person building the bike. Yet people survive - many even enjoy it!

I say don't stress so much - it's not worth the wasted energy. You're buying from a company - a brand, not a single man. Trust that the company will ensure the quality of product so that you don't have to. If the quality isn't there - then raise a flag - but don't raise a flag just because there is change. This is an inevitable part of life.

i definitely hear what you're saying - but a custom frame is a lot of money and i certainly feel like it's a place to be sensitive about, especially when there are so many options. and i most definitely think that if he's not 100% going in on this, it won't be perfect even before it arrives on his doorstep - again, too much money for that to happen.

[Blue Jays]

"...you don't know the name of THE person building the bike..."

Incorrect. I know the builders of my custom bicycle frames very well.
We collaborated on all facets of the build project plus the paint details.

[KonaSS]

Incorrect. I know the builders of my custom bicycle frames very well.
We collaborated on all facets of the build project plus the paint details.

Well again, this raises the point that many have already raised. Is Stoemper a company or a person? Obviously, some builders are just people, Strong, Sachs, etc. Some are companies - Independent Fabrications, Speedvagen, etc.

I get that the OP expected one thing, and it is a reasonable expectation. But a quick scan of the website, and Stoemper seems to represent itself as a company. Not the exact person. Don't know if this was always the case.

https://stoemper.com/about/

[vincenz]

If the builder was the major factor in choosing to go with them, I would ask for a refund now that has changed.

Why deal with an unknown for a major purchase?

[Clancy]

Simple....

You email them this “I went with Stoemper is due to Todd's 20 years of experience. To be fair, Ben may build a great bike, but I don't know anything about him outside of a tiny bit I was able to find on his LinkedIn profile.“

And you wait for his reply. It’s a completely fair question.

If you are unhappy with the response, I’m sure your money would be refunded

[ikecycke]

Well again, this raises the point that many have already raised. Is Stoemper a company or a person? Obviously, some builders are just people, Strong, Sachs, etc. Some are companies - Independent Fabrications, Speedvagen, etc.

I get that the OP expected one thing, and it is a reasonable expectation. But a quick scan of the website, and Stoemper seems to represent itself as a company. Not the exact person. Don't know if this was always the case.

https://stoemper.com/about/

The website does make them seem to represent the brand more than the builder, but virtually every article reviewing one of their bikes mentions Todd by name as the builder of all their frames. So I thought I was safe in my assumption that was the way it would stay...

[Butch]

Well again, this raises the point that many have already raised. Is Stoemper a company or a person? Obviously, some builders are just people, Strong, Sachs, etc. Some are companies - Independent Fabrications, Speedvagen, etc.

I get that the OP expected one thing, and it is a reasonable expectation. But a quick scan of the website, and Stoemper seems to represent itself as a company. Not the exact person. Don't know if this was always the case.

https://stoemper.com/about/

I have had the very conversation with some of my peers in the framebuilding and component world. When we started Co-Motion we intentionally picked a name that did not have our personal names attached. This allowed us to develop a brand separate from an individual. At Moots it was the same with roles for each person in the organization, becoming experts at their tasks.

The goal of these companies was to build a business with long term employees with good benefits and a living wage. Also at the end of the day, say 30 years into the gig, a company will have systems in place and a value to a possible new owner that goes beyond an individual. To everyone's point here it is different than working directly with an individual builder that does the majority of the construction, but not worse.

There are advantages to both. Having skilled and motivated employees with new ideas, sometimes superior skills, that you can train with the knowledge gained over time can elevate the quality and variety of the product. Also when the time comes to go ride, you can, leaving a company that should continue to run smoothly.Maybe this is Stoemper's goal.


Also there is a group of very gifted builders out there that do great work with maybe one, two or no employees that a customer can work directly with and have the builder's name on the downtube. The satisfaction for both sides of the transaction is tremendous. As stated both have their virtues

[makoti]

Do you think you'd be able to tell a difference between a frame built by the old builder and a frame built by the new builder?

You'd always know it wasn't built by who you expected it to be, regardless of how nice it rides.
If I went with a builder because of THAT GUY & now THAT GUY wasn't going to build it, I'd balk at continuing, for sure.

[bicycletricycle]

I know the name of the person who built almost all of my bicycles.

Y'all seem pretty sensitive. The majority of bike and frame manufacturers out there - you don't know the name of THE person building the bike. Yet people survive - many even enjoy it!

I say don't stress so much - it's not worth the wasted energy. You're buying from a company - a brand, not a single man. Trust that the company will ensure the quality of product so that you don't have to. If the quality isn't there - then raise a flag - but don't raise a flag just because there is change. This is an inevitable part of life.

[fignon's barber]

On a positive note, it's been a couple years since I looked at Stoemper. Just went to their site and IG. They look like they are producing very nice bikes.

[ikecycke]

I have had the very conversation with some of my peers in the framebuilding and component world. When we started Co-Motion we intentionally picked a name that did not have our personal names attached. This allowed us to develop a brand separate from an individual. At Moots it was the same with roles for each person in the organization, becoming experts at their tasks.

The goal of these companies was to build a business with long term employees with good benefits and a living wage. Also at the end of the day, say 30 years into the gig, a company will have systems in place and a value to a possible new owner that goes beyond an individual. To everyone's point here it is different than working directly with an individual builder that does the majority of the construction, but not worse.

There are advantages to both. Having skilled and motivated employees with new ideas, sometimes superior skills, that you can train with the knowledge gained over time can elevate the quality and variety of the product. Also when the time comes to go ride, you can, leaving a company that should continue to run smoothly.Maybe this is Stoemper's goal.


Also there is a group of very gifted builders out there that do great work with maybe one, two or no employees that a customer can work directly with and have the builder's name on the downtube. The satisfaction for both sides of the transaction is tremendous. As stated both have their virtues

Both of those avenues are certainly valid. It's just that the companies I focused on for this build (Stoemper, Breadwinner, Tonic Fab) are all 1 or 2 man shops with an established reputation. And up to this point, when you bought one of their frames, you knew the work they had done previously.

To find out that the one I chose is making a change as significant as the one person doing the welding (with mine as one of the transitional frames) is a bit off-putting.

[Jaybee]

It's pretty clear you're not into this, and being "into this" is a key part of the custom experience.

Follow the advice above to call/email Stoemper, mention your concerns, see where to go from there.

[makoti]

Y'all seem pretty sensitive. The majority of bike and frame manufacturers out there - you don't know the name of THE person building the bike. Yet people survive - many even enjoy it!



There was a time when not only did I know the name of everyone who built my bikes, I knew the name of everyone who built my wheels.

[ikecycke]

It's pretty clear you're not into this, and being "into this" is a key part of the custom experience.

Follow the advice above to call/email Stoemper, mention your concerns, see where to go from there.

I have a message into them just asking for a bit more about the new builder and expressing that the original builder was a big part of why I chose them, waiting to hear back (the business-end guy is in Australia for their handmade bike show, so giving him some time).

[KonaSS]

I have a message into them just asking for a bit more about the new builder and expressing that the original builder was a big part of why I chose them, waiting to hear back (the business-end guy is in Australia for their handmade bike show, so giving him some time).

Cool, let us know how it goes and what you decide. Don't think anyone can fault you either way. :hello:

[skiezo]

If they are working together I would not worry too much. If Todd is doing the customer service and design of the frames and cutting of the tubes and Ben is doing the welding I personally would not be too concerned. Tig welding is not rocket science and most of the welders that I work with are all top notch. As long as the fit-up of the joints are spot on the welding is the easy part. Fit,tack check alignment,weld out. Pretty cut and dry.
Just MHO.

[ikecycke]

If they are working together I would not worry too much. If Todd is doing the customer service and design of the frames and cutting of the tubes and Ben is doing the welding I personally would not be too concerned. Tig welding is not rocket science and most of the welders that I work with are all top notch. As long as the fit-up of the joints are spot on the welding is the easy part. Fit,tack check alignment,weld out. Pretty cut and dry.
Just MHO.

Not working together, Todd's not involved at all now. Everything is on Ben (well, I don't know who is going to do paint now).

[ikecycke]

Just to give a bit of an update, I'm going to continue with my build with Stoemper. I got a good response from David Alvarez (founder/business-end) with respect to the direction of the company. It turns out Todd is getting out of bicycles altogether, so he needed to find a new framebuilder to keep things moving. Ben, the new builder, has a number of years as a pro team wrench and welder, so definitely knows his way around a bike. Plus, they brought in Curt Goodrich (who was mentioned earlier in this thread) to lend his expertise in a number of areas (paint, frame ideas, etc.), so they have a wealth of experience at their fingertips.

So all in all I'm pretty comfortable going forward, and will certainly be posting updates as things move along.

[Matthew]

Good to hear. Guessing you're going to get a great bike out of this. Looking forward to seeing the updates!