200lb rider.. 2x or 3x lacing?

[MURDERF4CE]

Building my first wheelset and just wondering if I should go 2x or 3x on the rear.. I'll be doing 2x on the front. Hubs are used and I know to follow the grooves, can't tell if they were 2x or 3x before.

H+son TB14 to Dura Ace HB-7600 28h single fixed

Also not sure which spokes I should go with.. was looking at Sapim Race and Laser

[bicycletricycle]

you want the spokes to be tangential to the hub flange on the rear. In my experience you can get away with 2x on 28h and many pre built 28h wheels do come 2x on the rear.

[ultraman6970]

3x in both...

[tv_vt]

3x in both...

Definitely agree.

[oldpotatoe]

Building my first wheelset and just wondering if I should go 2x or 3x on the rear.. I'll be doing 2x on the front. Hubs are used and I know to follow the grooves, can't tell if they were 2x or 3x before.

H+son TB14 to Dura Ace HB-7600 28h single fixed

Also not sure which spokes I should go with.. was looking at Sapim Race and Laser

2cross front, 3 cross rear, brass nipps. Sapim Race. Lasers buy really nothing but more $ and not as reliable a wheel, all things being equal.

[berserk87]

What is the advantage of going 2 cross as opposed to 3 cross? I don't have a good understanding of this.

I am about your weight and I tend to lean toward more reinforcement, if more spokes crossing equates to that.

[ultraman6970]

3x the wheel gets tad stiffer. Sometimes you have to go with the formula everybody had been using for the longest time.

[oldpotatoe]

What is the advantage of going 2 cross as opposed to 3 cross? I don't have a good understanding of this.

I am about your weight and I tend to lean toward more reinforcement, if more spokes crossing equates to that.

I think 3 cross rear with 28h essential..I think he could do 28/2cross front and have a little less spoke overlap on the flange..he could also do 3cross on the front but no advantage, IMHO, considering what he's using the wheels for.

[berserk87]

Ok. Thanks for the responses.

Let me add another twist - does the extra crossing of spokes make the wheel more durable? I could see arguments for either more or less durable I suppose, due to the extra bend and contact with another spoke.

[Mark McM]

3x the wheel gets tad stiffer. Sometimes you have to go with the formula everybody had been using for the longest time.

Just the opposite is true - increasing the number of crosses decreases wheel stiffness. The reasons are two-fold: More crosses requires longer spokes; longer spokes decreases the spoke bracing angle. However, the differences subtle, and not a strong reason to select 2x over 3x lacing.

[Mark McM]

Ok. Thanks for the responses.

Let me add another twist - does the extra crossing of spokes make the wheel more durable? I could see arguments for either more or less durable I suppose, due to the extra bend and contact with another spoke.

Spoke lacing pattern has no meaningful affect on spoke fatigue, according to this study by Prof. Gavin of Duke University:

http://people.duke.edu/~hpgavin/papers/HPGavin-Wheel-Paper.pdf

(This paper also analyses wheel stiffness, and finds that stiffness decreases with increasing spoke crosses.)

[Look585]

Building my first wheelset and just wondering if I should go 2x or 3x on the rear.. I'll be doing 2x on the front. Hubs are used and I know to follow the grooves, can't tell if they were 2x or 3x before.

H+son TB14 to Dura Ace HB-7600 28h single fixed

Also not sure which spokes I should go with.. was looking at Sapim Race and Laser

Here are diagrams of how the spokes would orient on a DA7600 Flange in 3x lacing (top diagram) and 2x lacing (bottom diagram). You should be able to put a spoke or two in your hub and orient it the previous lacing groove(s) and then determine how the angle matches up to the diagrams...

[MURDERF4CE]

Thanks for those illustrations.. definitely will come in handy

[19wisconsin64]

From a 185 pound person to a 200 pound person...go with three cross. Really.

There are some amazing pre-built wheels out there than can go 2X, but you mentioned the H Son rims. I've seen waaayyyyyy too many folks 200 pounds plus have wheel problems, so why risk it?

I'd even suggest 32 hole 3X...but perhaps that's too old school! Good luck with your build.

[Mark McM]

Selecting the number of spoke crossings depends on primarily on these factors (in order of importance):

Number of spokes: The angle that spokes enter the hub (spoke angle) should be between 45 and 90 degrees, if this range of angles can be attained with more than one number of crossings, the larger angle/number of crossings is usually preferable. The spoke angle is a function of the number of spokes and the number of crossings:

Angle = (720 degrees) x (number of crossings) / (number of spokes)

For 28 spokes, 2x yields a spoke angle of 51.4 degrees, and 3x yields a spoke angle of 77.1 degrees.

Hub flange diameter: Large flange diameters can result in the spokes entering the rim at a sharp angle, resulting in stress concentrations at the spoke threads, and the larger the number of crossings used, the larger sharper the spoke bend at the rim. For very large hub flanges, often the smaller of the allowable spoke crossings is better.

Other hub geometry factors: Hubs with spoke holes very close to the edge of the flange can be more prone spokes breaking out of the flange. This can be mitigated by lacing the spokes more tangentially (higher spoke angle). Hubs with spoke holes very close together (small flange diameter with many spokes) may result in spokes overlapping the heads of adjacent spokes, making spoke replacement difficult. This can be mitigated by reducing the spoke angle (number of spoke crossings).


For a 28 spoke wheel, 3x would normally be recommended for small flange hubs, and possibly 2x if the hub flanges are very large.

[herb5998]

I'm a little heavier than you, and currently run 3x to HED Belgium Plus rims laced to Campagnolo Record Hubs, built by oldpotatoe, thousands of miles and no issues at all, riding lots of different services, still very true, and the HED rims are so stiff, correcting a slight wobble is easy

[astroturf]

If you are building a track wheelset you are looking for a stiffer wheel anyway. Go with 3x

[Mark McM]

If you are building a track wheelset you are looking for a stiffer wheel anyway. Go with 3x

If you had read the study linked earlier, you'd know that 3x wheels are less stiff than 2x wheels.

[MURDERF4CE]

Here are the hubs.. thoughts? I'm seeing a 3x with the grooves.

[Look585]

Looks like both the top (front?) and the bottom (rearDS) flanges were 3x.

While the lacing discussion above is interesting for *new* hubs, when building used hubs, the best lacing pattern is always matching the previous pattern.

[MURDERF4CE]

Yea, I've came to the conclusion it was 3x all around after I yanked a spoke from an old bent rim and saw how it sat. So that's what I'll be doing, thanks everyone for the help

Another thing I'm unsure about is whether I get 12mm or 14mm nipples

[oldpotatoe]

Here are the hubs.. thoughts? I'm seeing a 3x with the grooves.

Think you are in danger of overthinking this. Do 3cross both ends with Sapim Race or DT Comp...brass nipps, go ride.
Same with nipple length. Make sure the spokes are correct length, use either. BTW, I sell spokes, any length, any number...Sapim Race.