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View Full Version : kristoff no-likey tubeless @ roubaix


wallymann
04-15-2019, 07:49 AM
tubeless are still clinchers at the end of the day, why would he run them on the cobbles when low pressures are de-rigeur?! it doesnt say if he was also using sealant which i imagine would be mandatory with tubeless on the stones.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kristoff-regrets-big-risk-after-using-tubeless-tyres-in-paris-roubaix/

oldpotatoe
04-15-2019, 07:53 AM
tubeless are still clinchers at the end of the day, why would he run them on the cobbles when low pressures are de-rigeur?! it doesnt say if he was also using sealant which i imagine would be mandatory with tubeless on the stones.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kristoff-regrets-big-risk-after-using-tubeless-tyres-in-paris-roubaix/
"In Belgium it was working fine, and in recon, but in this race here you’re in the pack and you don’t really see where there are holes. I punctured twice before the Arenberg Forest and from there I never came back. I had three flats all together and then I changed to a bike with normal tyres.

"I knew that it was a big risk but these wheels are really good. I had success the last few weeks on them and I felt good today, until I punctured. We’d just not try it again next year."

NORMAL=Tubular, thanks..:) Wonder if it was a 'puncture' or a 'burp'..either way, wheel change.

old fat man
04-15-2019, 08:00 AM
tubeless are still clinchers at the end of the day, why would he run them on the cobbles when low pressures are de-rigeur?! it doesnt say if he was also using sealant which i imagine would be mandatory with tubeless on the stones.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kristoff-regrets-big-risk-after-using-tubeless-tyres-in-paris-roubaix/

That's exactly why you choose tubeless. Nothing to pinch flat.

Kristoff chose to stick with Vittoria Corsa Graphene 2.0 25mm tubeless tyres in conjunction with Campagnolo Bora WTO tubeless-ready wheels that he had raced on throughout the spring.

And he chose 25mm wide tires? Even 10 years ago the pros were riding 27mm+ tires for PR

Lionel
04-15-2019, 08:05 AM
Got to be brain dead to ride 25mm tubeless in roubaix

wallymann
04-15-2019, 08:21 AM
NORMAL=Tubular, thanks..:) Wonder if it was a 'puncture' or a 'burp'..either way, wheel change.

so that's a thing with tubeless, the tyres can become unseated and you lose pressure?

edit: apparently so!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4npeVITZzf8

MattTuck
04-15-2019, 08:42 AM
Well, he was my pick. So surely, that is the deathknell for someone's chances of winning the race. Seriously though, I thought his chances were good, but this bone headed decision defies logic.

I'd love to know how much pressure the sponsors had been exerting on the team to ride this set up.

Not unusual to see folks around here riding 28s or 32s on regular crappy New England roads. Why is he riding 25s on the worst road surface he'll face all year??? It makes zero sense.

In the pantheon of poor equipment choices at Roubaix, it's not as bad as Hincapie or Terpstra, but seems pretty egregious.

I'm more annoyed by this than I should be, because I put my trust in him. :)

El Chaba
04-15-2019, 08:46 AM
I wonder if the bit about 25mm is bad information...I had heard that the earlier parts of his cobbled classics campaign was on 28mm tubeless, so I would think he had at least that size...

oldpotatoe
04-15-2019, 08:58 AM
I wonder if the bit about 25mm is bad information...I had heard that the earlier parts of his cobbled classics campaign was on 28mm tubeless, so I would think he had at least that size...

Doubt that would have made any difference if the pressure was low=burp..

Want low pressure tires w/o pinch flats and no burps??

:rolleyes:

batman1425
04-15-2019, 09:26 AM
I wonder if the bit about 25mm is bad information...I had heard that the earlier parts of his cobbled classics campaign was on 28mm tubeless, so I would think he had at least that size...

Cyclingnews has pics of his bike. Although they don't show the label close enough to confirm, they sure look like 28s based on the volume.

JStonebarger
04-15-2019, 09:38 AM
Doubt that would have made any difference if the pressure was low=burp..

Want low pressure tires w/o pinch flats and no burps??

:rolleyes:

Tubulars pinch flat just fine, so I'll stick with clinchers.

oldpotatoe
04-15-2019, 09:41 AM
Tubulars pinch flat just fine, so I'll stick with clinchers.

?? I guess if you smack any bike tire hard enough but considering the design of each('sharp-ish rim vs not)...I see no compelling reason to switch any of my 3 wheelsets to clincher(or tubeless)..certainly not because Tubulars pinch flat just fine

JStonebarger
04-15-2019, 09:55 AM
?? I guess if you smack any bike tire hard enough but considering the design of each('sharp-ish rim vs not)...I see no compelling reason to switch any of my 3 wheelsets to clincher(or tubeless)..certainly not because

You can watch it happen in pretty much every pro cyclocross race. And there's nothing sharp about clincher rims -- especially not through the tire. The tiny tear (not cut) would happen just as easily using a hammer on a table.

I wouldn't suggest you switch. I use both clinchers and tubulars in cyclocross, and they both pinch flat.

"[Pinch flats] occur when the tire casing bottoms on the rim, causing a compression failure in the tube for both clinchers and tubulars, much like pinching the cheek with thumb and forefinger. The fingertips simulate the tire casing and the cheek the tube." Jobst Brandt https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/snakebites.html
(My second Jobst quote today.)

Mark McM
04-15-2019, 10:00 AM
?? I guess if you smack any bike tire hard enough but considering the design of each('sharp-ish rim vs not)...I see no compelling reason to switch any of my 3 wheelsets to clincher(or tubeless)..certainly not because

I don't often ride tubulars, but I ride with some riders who still regularly use them (old habits for old riders). I've witnessed several tubular pinch flats, so I know they are not immune to them. Although it does appear that pinch flats with tubulars are much less common than with clinchers.

ultraman6970
04-15-2019, 10:01 AM
They went tubeless???? baaaaaaaaad idea... hope they learn from this.

JStonebarger
04-15-2019, 10:07 AM
... it does appear that pinch flats with tubulars are much less common than with clinchers.

I wonder how much of that is latex vs. butyl, since butyl is more commonly used with clinchers and is much easier to tear than latex.

R3awak3n
04-15-2019, 10:11 AM
so dudes on mtbs throw their bikes through insane jumps and do crazy stuff, and this dude has problems ridding tubeless on some tiny cobbles? ok...

sounds like the typical, I did not win so I will blame it on something...

Jaybee
04-15-2019, 10:19 AM
so dudes on mtbs throw their bikes through insane jumps and do crazy stuff, and this dude has problems ridding tubeless on some tiny cobbles? ok...

sounds like the typical, I did not win so I will blame it on something...

I'm all tubeless all the time, but even a tubeless MTB can pinch flat, if by pinch flat you mean "compress the tire/tube between the rim and ground such that a cut happens". That usually means a rim dent as well, which is why the enduro-bro crowd is running things like the Huck Norris (http://hucknorris.com/). Tubeless doesn't mean "you'll never ever flat again." It means "you'll flat a lot less than with a tube, and you'll be able to run lower pressures for better rolling resistance and traction." This works really well with larger tires, and seemingly slightly less well with tires below 30ish mm width.

Taking the reporting offered at face value, sounds like too narrow of a tire with too low of pressure, which would be a problem regardless of the tire system, tubulars included. I agree that it's weird and a bit unseemly to throw the equipment under the bus, especially when a sponsor provided it for free. Everyone flats in Paris Roubaix. Just part of the race.

bicycletricycle
04-15-2019, 10:25 AM
so dudes on mtbs throw their bikes through insane jumps and do crazy stuff, and this dude has problems ridding tubeless on some tiny cobbles? ok...

sounds like the typical, I did not win so I will blame it on something...

They use totally different equipment to do insane jumps. I do not understand how your comment is relevant.

R3awak3n
04-15-2019, 10:28 AM
They use totally different equipment to do insane jumps. I do not understand how your comment is relevant.

yes they are different equipment but they are also on the extreme of things. I am not sure how tubeless was the problem. Maybe his combo tire/rim/pressure, yada yada...

I do agree that he should have just gone with the tried and true but blame the tech is silly.

MattTuck
04-15-2019, 10:34 AM
yes they are different equipment but they are also on the extreme of things. I am not sure how tubeless was the problem. Maybe his combo tire/rim/pressure, yada yada...

I do agree that he should have just gone with the tried and true but blame the tech is silly.

Tried and true... he won Gent-Wevelgem, and the bunch sprint at Flanders with this set up.

I think the issue is that a good set up for the Belgian cobbles is (perhaps) not the right solution for Roubaix. Even if it performed well during recon on the French cobbles.

bicycletricycle
04-15-2019, 10:39 AM
If the tech failed you than pointing that out is okay I think. If you are the one that chose that technology than you have to take some of that blame yourself. These riders are probably pressured into using "new" technology by their sponsors, a lot of factors probably went into making the decision.

I think it is generally bad form for athletes to speak badly of their sponsors or their equipment. They are paying you for good PR. If you are not satisfied you should just start trying to find a way to move on.




yes they are different equipment but they are also on the extreme of things. I am not sure how tubeless was the problem. Maybe his combo tire/rim/pressure, yada yada...

I do agree that he should have just gone with the tried and true but blame the tech is silly.

spoonrobot
04-15-2019, 10:41 AM
Tubeless isn't pinch flat proof, it's just less likely. One can still pinch different parts of the tire together against the rim hard enough to cause two punctures in the tire - especially running relatively narrow tires on relatively wide rims.

I pinch flatted tubeless tires on all my bikes (MTB, road, gravel) the first year I switched because I just followed what I saw on MTBR and dropped the pressure by a given value without accounting for sag.

Seems baffling why someone would choose tubeless if they were already set up for tubular tires. I'd never switch in that scenario.

Red Tornado
04-15-2019, 10:47 AM
Besides a pinch flat or a burp, could the process of the tire resealing have something to do with it? If it didn't seal quickly a lot of air could be lost, possibly enough to make it un-rideable. Road tires have less volume than dirt tires, so maybe sealed but pressure was just too low afterwards?

the bottle ride
04-15-2019, 11:02 AM
Many of the World Cup XC racers super glue their tires to the rim to keep them from burping- and the downhill guys I think they are still on burly tubes.

He should have been on a bigger tire- period.
I get wanting a skinny/fast tire- but durable is critical

mt2u77
04-15-2019, 11:56 AM
Just curious, is there a rule limiting the maximum tire size for these cobbled events? Given the horrific crashes and equipment failures that are common in Paris Roubaix, I wonder if teams are unnecessarily pushing the boundary on safety in the name of tradition/untested assumptions about the fastest tire configuration. Even if a larger tire is slightly slower, there is some element of risk reduction that must be weighed. (i.e. Is a slightly slower bike actually "faster" if it keeps your team together, healthy, prevents burning matches to recover from mechanicals, and gives you a shot at the end?)

Lionel
04-15-2019, 12:15 PM
Just curious, is there a rule limiting the maximum tire size for these cobbled events? Given the horrific crashes and equipment failures that are common in Paris Roubaix, I wonder if teams are unnecessarily pushing the boundary on safety in the name of tradition/untested assumptions about the fastest tire configuration. Even if a larger tire is slightly slower, there is some element of risk reduction that must be weighed. (i.e. Is a slightly slower bike actually "faster" if it keeps your team together, healthy, prevents burning matches to recover from mechanicals, and gives you a shot at the end?)

It's a compromise that has been figured out a long time ago. 27 to 30 is the best. There is 210km of road and 55km of Pave.

saab2000
04-15-2019, 12:18 PM
It's a compromise that has been figured out a long time ago. 27 to 30 is the best. There is 210km of road and 55km of Pave.

You spelled it wrong. The correct spelling is Pavaix.

Calnago
04-15-2019, 12:26 PM
I already posted this somewhere else, but this is a better place for it...

I don't agree tubeless had much to do with his puncture (if it was a puncture...) but I am thurougly confused by the 25mm if that's truely what he ran.


With a clincher, be it tubed or tubeless, you still have two hard narrow vertical walls on each side with the bead of the tire forced (by air pressure) against it. And these two narrow edged walls are the only thing supporting that tire. When it gets hit hard enough that the tire gets jammed on top of those wall edges it’s very hard on the tire. In the case of a tubed clincher, you will pinch flat right away. In the case of a tubeless, there is no tube but it’s still a pretty traumatic event on the tire’s sidewall as it creases and gets essentially vice gripped and jackhammered between, well... a rock and a hard place. Versus how a tubular sits across a rim bed, evenly supported across the whole width, not just two edge walls, without any abrupt sidewalls extending vertically up, acting as anvils for the rocks to crush the tire against when they hit. Whether or not this was the cause of Kristoff’s specific punctures who knows, but it’s not hard to see how a tubular setup in a scenario like this is going to be gentler on the tire.
Now, at some point, if the tires get big enough and volume great enough, take a mountain bike for example, the scenario above will just never, or very rarely, happen. But we’re not all pretending mountain bikes are road bikes, at least not yet. Or are we? Hope not.
Sorry for the bit off-topic, but it seems relevant to the discussion at hand. And I was kind of rooting for Kristoff at the beginning.

[edit]: I do think he should have gone for at least a 28mm tire however, I guess he just doesn’t like the feel of the larger tires. Still, Paris Roubaix is not your typical gravel grinder fare.

In conclusion, one word: Tubular!

JStonebarger
04-15-2019, 12:43 PM
http://www.velocityusa.com/images/made/files/uploads/Major_Tom_1_118_100.png
http://www.velocityusa.com/images/made/files/uploads/A23_3_94_100.png
By that logic the A23 above should pinch flat less -- the contact point with the tire and tube is actually flatter and less pointy than that on the Major Tom.
In reality, though, neither need be pointy because a pinch flat isn't a cut it's a tear caused by compression.

benb
04-15-2019, 01:23 PM
so dudes on mtbs throw their bikes through insane jumps and do crazy stuff, and this dude has problems ridding tubeless on some tiny cobbles? ok...

sounds like the typical, I did not win so I will blame it on something...

Just think how much better MTBs would ride with Tubulars. :rolleyes: Tubulars are magic!

What I don't quite get is just like Disc Brakes how this keeps getting screwed up.

They should have figured out how to run tubeless road at pressures lower than a tubular can handle a long time ago.

It's like the reason they keep using the tubulars is because it's the only setup the mechanics understand and the riders demand something that doesn't make sense if they're on anything but tubulars?

saab2000
04-15-2019, 01:29 PM
It's like the reason they keep using the tubulars is because it's the only setup the mechanics understand and the riders demand something that doesn't make sense if they're on anything but tubulars?

I've nearly quit using tubulars because for my usage (key words: My Usage) fat clinchers work really well these days. By fat I mean 25mm.

But tubulars are really great for a reason. They're actually really reliable. It's a mature technology. I rode tubulars for decades and flatted way, way less than my clincher-riding buddies. Don't know why, but there must be a reason.

I'm not defending tubulars out of some kind of old-world or elitism or luddite-ism or anything like that. I defend them because they actually work well.

Also, I am not sure folks understand that Paris-Roubaix is NOT your local gravel ride. It's a road race and having raced in Europe I can assure you they're going really, really fast much of the time. It's hard to appreciate the speed from the TV. It's not a recreational ride on some hard packed dirt roads.

madsciencenow
04-15-2019, 01:38 PM
Also, I am not sure folks understand that Paris-Roubaix is NOT your local gravel ride. It's a road race and having raced in Europe I can assure you they're going really, really fast much of the time. It's hard to appreciate the speed from the TV. It's not a recreational ride on some hard packed dirt roads.

It's funny that you mention the speed because it's something I noticed yesterday for the first time. I don't know if it was the camera angle on the back of the motorbike from a really low angle looking back or what, but it hit me that there's no way in he** I could ride like that on a road bike over that surface for any appreciable amount of time.

oldpotatoe
04-15-2019, 05:10 PM
I don't often ride tubulars, but I ride with some riders who still regularly use them (old habits for old riders). I've witnessed several tubular pinch flats, so I know they are not immune to them. Although it does appear that pinch flats with tubulars are much less common than with clinchers.

Yup..in 38 years of using tubulars, I have never pinch flatted a tubular.

saab2000
04-15-2019, 05:20 PM
Yup..in 38 years of using tubulars, I have never pinch flatted a tubular.

I did once. The funny thing was that it didn’t flat right away, but next day or so lost air and wouldn’t hold air. The blow that caused this was enough to damage a Campagnolo Nucleon rim, and those were as tough as any aluminum rim I’ve ever seen. Unannounced pothole in a fast paceline, hit at full force. Surprised I didn’t crash or break my frame.

A clincher would have been toast.

BikeNY
04-16-2019, 11:09 AM
Yup..in 38 years of using tubulars, I have never pinch flatted a tubular.

That just means you're running the pressure too high!;)

I have no idea what I would choose if I were riding that race. I come from an MTB background, and tubeless there has been an amazing improvement. I can run lower pressures and still flat much less than when running tubes. Small punctures seal up instantly, you usually don't even know it happened. Of course you can still get flats. Smashing your wheel into a rock and bottoming out the rim can cause a pinch flat, but if you did the same thing with a tube, the result would be the same or probably worse.

The trick is finding the right tire width and pressure for your terrain, riding style, weight, etc.

If it's true that he was riding 25mm wide tires, the result is not surprising at all, and it sound like his pressure was too low. I think the results would have been the same whether he was running tubular, tubes, or tubeless.

msngr
04-16-2019, 11:28 AM
To those criticizing Kristoff for criticizing his sponsors, please note that he was careful not to blame the equipment at all. He said his choice of equipment was wrong (and I took this to mean that the combination was not good). He took all the blame himself.

benb
04-16-2019, 11:30 AM
My comment about tubulars was mostly sarcastic.

I am not sure I've ever had a pinch flat in 20 years road/mtb/gravel/whatever. The majority of my miles have been clincher.

Point being these race mishaps always indicate something was screwed up. But we always get the chorus of "if only they were running tubulars!"

I think they just screw up tubular usage less cause it's their default, their home base, what they have the most experience with, etc..

I've watched Paris Roubaix many times and have rode on cobblestones, bricks, whatever. I know they are fast but it has never struck me as particularly rough terrain when you include the entire gamut of what is out there for terrain that gets bicycled over. Riding over cobblestones is not any harder than jumping/bumping through rock gardens in the woods, and high level MTB guys are doing that as fast as the pack travels at Paris Roubaix or faster.

All their issues seem to be a result of trying really hard to keep the tire sizes down as small as possible because they have to worry about a lot of miles of high speed smooth pavement too. And of course lots of weight weenie stuff too.

Tubeless usage for me has always equaled way lower pressures, basically never flatting, obviously lower rolling resistance, increased traction, etc.. but I am generally riding over much rougher terrain than Paris Roubaix and I'm using bigger tires.

The only flat I've had on Tubeless was a sidewall tear that was almost 1/2" long and the Stans sealant still allowed me to get back to the car with occasional stops to add pressure back to the tire. That Hutchinson tire was pretty weak in sidewalls for an off road tire. I've never had anything like that happen again. Maybe I've had pinprick punctures but I'd never know.

Every one of these types of technologies with teething problems seems to be a failure of the bike industry/pro teams to transfer MTB technology over to road. It's really interesting stuff.

oldpotatoe
04-16-2019, 11:33 AM
I did once. The funny thing was that it didn’t flat right away, but next day or so lost air and wouldn’t hold air. The blow that caused this was enough to damage a Campagnolo Nucleon rim, and those were as tough as any aluminum rim I’ve ever seen. Unannounced pothole in a fast paceline, hit at full force. Surprised I didn’t crash or break my frame.

A clincher would have been toast.

Hit a ledge on a new highway so hard I broke a chunk out of rear hub flange, tire didn’t puncture. A tubular.

shoota
04-16-2019, 12:26 PM
Riding over cobblestones is not any harder than jumping/bumping through rock gardens in the woods, and high level MTB guys are doing that as fast as the pack travels at Paris Roubaix or faster.


MTBers are riding through rock gardens at 30mph??

Jaybee
04-16-2019, 12:29 PM
MTBers are riding through rock gardens at 30mph??

Gravity riders, sure. They are also on 2.5” double or triple ply tires, have 8+” of travel front and rear, and probably rim protection inserts. And body armor.

jtbadge
04-16-2019, 12:30 PM
Hit a ledge on a new highway so hard I broke a chunk out of rear hub flange, tire didn’t puncture. A tubular.

I'd rather have a flat clincher than a broken hub.

shoota
04-16-2019, 12:33 PM
Gravity riders, sure. They are also on 2.5” double or triple ply tires, have 8+” of travel front and rear, and probably rim protection inserts. And body armor.

Wow that's fast.

I guess I always thought riding tubulars was beneficial because you can ride on a flat for quite a while. I can see that being enormously beneficial in a road race, for team car support reasons.

pbarry
04-17-2019, 07:42 PM
Gary Fisher designed and made by Vittoria mtb tubular tires have appeared in 26er and 29er versions through the years but never caught on.

Just think how much better MTBs would ride with Tubulars. :rolleyes: Tubulars are magic!

What I don't quite get is just like Disc Brakes how this keeps getting screwed up.

They should have figured out how to run tubeless road at pressures lower than a tubular can handle a long time ago.

It's like the reason they keep using the tubulars is because it's the only setup the mechanics understand and the riders demand something that doesn't make sense if they're on anything but tubulars?

William
04-18-2019, 06:41 AM
Tubeless? Bead-locks = No burpee.







W.

oldpotatoe
04-18-2019, 07:03 AM
I'd rather have a flat clincher than a broken hub.

I guess you forgot the :eek:
Are ya really saying if I had a clincher I wouldn't have broken the hub, just flatted the tire and broken the rim? Ya sure..

I re-used the rim, BTW..:)

ultraman6970
04-18-2019, 08:01 AM
Well if you look at it, yes is better have a flat in a clincher than a broken hub, but hubs bust so rarely... either way, rather have a flat in a tubbie than in a clincher.

VC Slim
04-18-2019, 08:12 AM
I did once. The funny thing was that it didn’t flat right away, but next day or so lost air and wouldn’t hold air. The blow that caused this was enough to damage a Campagnolo Nucleon rim, and those were as tough as any aluminum rim I’ve ever seen. Unannounced pothole in a fast paceline, hit at full force. Surprised I didn’t crash or break my frame.

A clincher would have been toast.

Same thing here. Pinched flatted a tubular and ruined a Neutron. Next time by that now known hole I moved right to avoid it. Well, turned out the hole had grown. Flatted again.

Ronsonic
04-18-2019, 10:45 PM
Just think how much better MTBs would ride with Tubulars. :rolleyes: Tubulars are magic!

It's been done, and not all that long ago. Worked great. Suspect part of the problem at the world's end of the sport is that instead of having a tire sponsor pay you, you get to write a large check to FMB. At my end of the sport the things are screamingly expensive.

What I don't quite get is just like Disc Brakes how this keeps getting screwed up.

They should have figured out how to run tubeless road at pressures lower than a tubular can handle a long time ago.

Just not going to happen. There just isn't any practical way to do that. The whole sewup tire thing was genius to start and it's only been further refined over a hundred and some years.

oldpotatoe
04-19-2019, 06:30 AM
It's been done, and not all that long ago. Worked great. Suspect part of the problem at the world's end of the sport is that instead of having a tire sponsor pay you, you get to write a large check to FMB. At my end of the sport the things are screamingly expensive.



Just not going to happen. There just isn't any practical way to do that. The whole sewup tire thing was genius to start and it's only been further refined over a hundred and some years.

Ayup!!

William
04-19-2019, 07:27 AM
So, ho is going to make the first gravel/Cross beadlock rims for tubeless bike tires? Shimano, Campy, SRAM, or the Walmart brothers?:D








W.

Mark McM
04-19-2019, 09:51 AM
It's been done, and not all that long ago. Worked great.

When something has been tried several times, and was subsequently abandoned each time, its hard to say that it "Worked great."


The whole sewup tire thing was genius to start and it's only been further refined over a hundred and some years.

If sewups are so great, why were clinchers developed later to solve the problems created by sewups, and have sincen nearly entirely replace sewups?

Calnago
04-19-2019, 10:14 AM
Clinchers didn’t solve any “problems” created by tubulars. In fact, there are no problems with tubulars. It’s just that clinchers are easier and more convenient. People like easy, cuz well, it’s easy. At least, prior to tubeless they were easy. But now it seems with the difficulty people seem to be having with mounting road tubeless these days, and sealant spewing everywhere, and wondering whether a tire will reseat and seal on the road, it seems they’ve actually gotten more difficult. For road at least, tubulars remain supreme. If road tires do eventually evolve into mountain type affairs in terms of width and volume, which in some cases are getting close, then the fact that the two hard ridges they’re supported upon being so far away from the road may make the difference in the superior feel of the tubular less noticeable (they will both feel like balloons), but at today’s sweetspot of racing tire sizes of tubulars at 25-27mm, the tubular won’t be surpassed in the handling and ride quality criteria by any clincher. Straight line performance could be equal or even surpassed by a clincher, but as soon as the road starts twisting, gimme back me tubulars please.

ariw
04-19-2019, 01:23 PM
Two thoughts:

1) 25mm - really? Agreed with others above that he should have been running a wider tire, just like almost every other rider @PR.

2) I have a pair of those Vittoria tubeless tires, they are fast as hell, but very thin, like almost TT specialty tire thin. No way are they appropriate for gravel or cobbles.

Finally, as per the usual discussion of road tubeless, a bunch of people who have either very limited or no experience with it will bash it endlessly. Been on road tubeless for years now, can’t stand regular clinchers any more, but I also love tubulars. As for mtb tubeless, I struggle to remember the last flat that I had on the trail. The technology just works

Ari

Ronsonic
04-19-2019, 07:14 PM
When something has been tried several times, and was subsequently abandoned each time, its hard to say that it "Worked great."

Several world XC championships qualifies as "works great." Cost, that's another thing.


If sewups are so great, why were clinchers developed later to solve the problems created by sewups, and have sincen nearly entirely replace sewups?

Because every design is a compromise. Choose your priorities. Tubeless road tires (which started this thread) apparently don't handle some situations as well as tubes or sewups. Tubular MTB tires (which is where we wandered off to) do lots of things well except cost a bomb and the alternative tubeless tires work way better than the road tubeless.

rwsaunders
04-20-2019, 04:53 PM
I wonder if the bit about 25mm is bad information...I had heard that the earlier parts of his cobbled classics campaign was on 28mm tubeless, so I would think he had at least that size...

Kristoff is sticking with the Vittoria Corsa Graphene 2.0 25mm tubeless tyres he has used in previous races, used in conjunction with Campagnolo Bora WTO tubeless-ready wheels, which were released last year and recently updated with a 45mm option. "I've actually raced on tubeless all year, and have a good feeling on them. I also won Gent-Wevelgem and was third at Flanders on tubeless," Kristoff added.

"For me, they just feel better. I don't really know what the main difference is, but they roll well, and on the cobbles they don't feel bad at all – they feel comfortable. I did some tests this winter on tubulars, and I didn't feel any better, if I remember correctly. “They're 25mm tyres, but they actually measure a little wider – around 26mm. But I'm keeping my tyre pressures a secret," he said.