Felt AR as potential race/occasional TT

[BLD 25]

Hey, everyone, looking for some opinions on a 2014 felt AR. Currently in my stable:

2014 58cm Cannondale SS EVO. 10spd red, quarq hollowgram, handbuilt wheels ~15.3lbs with pedals

58cm Titanium Motobecane(ORA) Century. 10 speed red as well

~2008 54cm Cervelo p2k TT bike

I am thinking of selling the EVO and Cervelo and replacing it with a felt AR. I am BLOWN AWAY by how nice that Motobecane titanium bike is, and how I am reaching for it more often than the EVO lately. The EVO is magical going up hills, but if I could get rid of two bikes and get one AR to do the job of both.

I do a couple TTs or Tris a year, and my favorite is a duathlon with a 17.5mi hilly TT. I was surprised this lasts year i was hardly any faster on the TT bike, and wondering if the hills slowed it down enough.

Questions:

With the seatpost flipped and clip on aerobars, shouldn't the AR be nearly as slippery in the wind as the older Cervelo?

How would the AR compare to the EVO in other rideability? I know the EVO is magical, but I do enjoy the Moto with wide tires on enjoyable rides, so this would be for speed.

Is there much difference besides weight on the AR1,2,3,4?

Any other info would be helpful.

Thanks!

[batman1425]

The frame of the AR is likely plenty slippery compared to your P2K. You'll lose some from the drops on the rest of the non-aero cockpit if just going with clip ons.

The most important question IMO is will the AR geometry accommodate your current TT position or will you have to make some compromises.

[echappist]

Hey, everyone, looking for some opinions on a 2014 felt AR. Currently in my stable:

2014 58cm Cannondale SS EVO. 10spd red, quarq hollowgram, handbuilt wheels ~15.3lbs with pedals

58cm Titanium Motobecane(ORA) Century. 10 speed red as well

~2008 54cm Cervelo p2k TT bike

I am thinking of selling the EVO and Cervelo and replacing it with a felt AR. I am BLOWN AWAY by how nice that Motobecane titanium bike is, and how I am reaching for it more often than the EVO lately. The EVO is magical going up hills, but if I could get rid of two bikes and get one AR to do the job of both.

I do a couple TTs or Tris a year, and my favorite is a duathlon with a 17.5mi hilly TT. I was surprised this lasts year i was hardly any faster on the TT bike, and wondering if the hills slowed it down enough.

Questions:

With the seatpost flipped and clip on aerobars, shouldn't the AR be nearly as slippery in the wind as the older Cervelo?

How would the AR compare to the EVO in other rideability? I know the EVO is magical, but I do enjoy the Moto with wide tires on enjoyable rides, so this would be for speed.

Is there much difference besides weight on the AR1,2,3,4?

Any other info would be helpful.

Thanks!

Are these statements made on the basis of power measurements, if so, what's providing you with the power measurement?

Have you compared your TT bike vs your road bike on flat grounds? Is the former significantly faster?

Lastly, how hilly is the bike portion of the hilly duathlon? Any extended (say at least 0.5 miles) sections with average gradient above 5%?

I have a Felt AR2, but I doubt the frame per se would be much faster (if at all) compared to the Cervelo P2k. You may shave some weight, but any calculator will tell you that the time difference will end up being minimal. (2 kg leads to difference of 5 seconds on a mile-long hill at 5%).

You may just be slowed down by the running preceding the bike portion of the duathlon. No telling what's actually going on, unless you have power data.

[BLD 25]

Are these statements made on the basis of power measurements, if so, what's providing you with the power measurement?

Have you compared your TT bike vs your road bike on flat grounds? Is the former significantly faster?

Lastly, how hilly is the bike portion of the hilly duathlon? Any extended (say at least 0.5 miles) sections with average gradient above 5%?

I have a Felt AR2, but I doubt the frame per se would be much faster (if at all) compared to the Cervelo P2k. You may shave some weight, but any calculator will tell you that the time difference will end up being minimal. (2 kg leads to difference of 5 seconds on a mile-long hill at 5%).

You may just be slowed down by the running preceding the bike portion of the duathlon. No telling what's actually going on, unless you have power data.

Thanks for the info. I have two years of data with power, although there were too many other variables.

17.5 mi, ~1300ft elevation

2017-Supersix EVO with clip on bars
avg power-242w, 20.8mph
Quarq crank PM, and extremely windy

2018-Cervelo P2-SL
Avg power-264w, 21.4mph

Stages crank PM(single sided, although with the quarq, I am always nearly 50/50), not as windy


As another bit of data, my fastest time was in 2016 with my CAAD9

"strava Estimated power"-286w (no power meter yet) 21.6mph, not windy


All to say, on flats, yes the Cervelo is much faster on a flat, but on this particular course(my favorite race of the year), it doesn't seem that the the watts/time are that different on different bikes. Yes, I was a bit faster on the Cervelo in 2018 than the Evo, but it was 22w more, which would make sense over that hour. Also, if the Estimated power was even close(which makes sense linearly compared to other data years), there seems to be more of a relationship of power to speed, and no huge stand out for the Cervelo.

Now, I don't expect the Felt to be way faster, as it is just a road bike, but if it is as fast, or maybe a little faster on a hilly route, and it gets used all year round, and I can sell two complete bikes, and buy one frameset, and pocket some money, then it might be worth considering!

[BLD 25]

The frame of the AR is likely plenty slippery compared to your P2K. You'll lose some from the drops on the rest of the non-aero cockpit if just going with clip ons.

The most important question IMO is will the AR geometry accommodate your current TT position or will you have to make some compromises.

Thanks! I would say that my "TT position" is fairly crude, and somewhat adaptable to a different bike.

[echappist]

Thanks for the info. I have two years of data with power, although there were too many other variables.

17.5 mi, ~1300ft elevation

2017-Supersix EVO with clip on bars
avg power-242w, 20.8mph
Quarq crank PM, and extremely windy

2018-Cervelo P2-SL
Avg power-264w, 21.4mph

Stages crank PM(single sided, although with the quarq, I am always nearly 50/50), not as windy


As another bit of data, my fastest time was in 2016 with my CAAD9

"strava Estimated power"-286w (no power meter yet) 21.6mph, not windy


All to say, on flats, yes the Cervelo is much faster on a flat, but on this particular course(my favorite race of the year), it doesn't seem that the the watts/time are that different on different bikes. Yes, I was a bit faster on the Cervelo in 2018 than the Evo, but it was 22w more, which would make sense over that hour. Also, if the Estimated power was even close(which makes sense linearly compared to other data years), there seems to be more of a relationship of power to speed, and no huge stand out for the Cervelo.

Now, I don't expect the Felt to be way faster, as it is just a road bike, but if it is as fast, or maybe a little faster on a hilly route, and it gets used all year round, and I can sell two complete bikes, and buy one frameset, and pocket some money, then it might be worth considering!

assuming your clip-on position is good (this is not a given for most people), it does not surprise me that the difference might not be that big. 1300 ft over 17 miles would be considered relatively hilly (anything over 1% elevation gain per mile is usually hilly; this course is at 1.5%). So not surprising that the difference is even smaller.

If you are interested in doing other TT/duathlon that are flatter, a dedicated TT bike may help. But at 1.5%, clip-on bars on a road bike may just be the best choice, all things considered. For one thing, you may find yourself descending with more confidence on your road bike compared to your TT bike.

For the specific duathlon event, I would focus on are as follows (for your current bike):

-1) getting a decently low position that allows you to run afterwards. Look for extensions that don't add a lot of stack over the handlebar.
-2) getting Di2, as it allows you to shift without getting out of your aero position

As for TT in general, I think there are some who was able to run the AR as a full-on TT bike. I know for a fact that someone on slowtwitch did just this. Of course, dedicated basebars + extensions are not cheap, but they are a bit faster than doing clip-on bars.

Also, other things to make you faster include aero brakes (TriRig Omega) and fast tires. The latter could easily save you 10 watts, if you haven't been prioritizing for it.

FWIW, depending on the course, 1.5% is where i'd swap my TT bike for my road bike (doing the invisible aero bar), as my power output on the TT bike is about 8% lower. If the course has particularly gnarly descents, even more reason for me to use the road bike.

ETA: check out these
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Any_one_have_a_TT_cockpit_on_a_Felt_AR._P6451548/

http://www.togoparts.com/marketplace/ad-details/1017789/felt-ar-1-aero-tt-road-bike-for-sale

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=3761058;search_string=s5%2520tt;#3 761058

the last one is a S5 fitted with TT bars and extensions. Highly relevant, as the AR was determined to be on par with the S5 in terms of aerodynamics (good thing).

[BLD 25]

assuming your clip-on position is good (this is not a given for most people), it does not surprise me that the difference might not be that big. 1300 ft over 17 miles would be considered relatively hilly (anything over 1% elevation gain per mile is usually hilly; this course is at 1.5%). So not surprising that the difference is even smaller.

If you are interested in doing other TT/duathlon that are flatter, a dedicated TT bike may help. But at 1.5%, clip-on bars on a road bike may just be the best choice, all things considered. For one thing, you may find yourself descending with more confidence on your road bike compared to your TT bike.

For the specific duathlon event, I would focus on are as follows (for your current bike):

-1) getting a decently low position that allows you to run afterwards. Look for extensions that don't add a lot of stack over the handlebar.
-2) getting Di2, as it allows you to shift without getting out of your aero position

As for TT in general, I think there are some who was able to run the AR as a full-on TT bike. I know for a fact that someone on slowtwitch did just this. Of course, dedicated basebars + extensions are not cheap, but they are a bit faster than doing clip-on bars.

Also, other things to make you faster include aero brakes (TriRig Omega) and fast tires. The latter could easily save you 10 watts, if you haven't been prioritizing for it.

FWIW, depending on the course, 1.5% is where i'd swap my TT bike for my road bike (doing the invisible aero bar), as my power output on the TT bike is about 8% lower. If the course has particularly gnarly descents, even more reason for me to use the road bike.

ETA: check out these
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Any_one_have_a_TT_cockpit_on_a_Felt_AR._P6451548/

http://www.togoparts.com/marketplace/ad-details/1017789/felt-ar-1-aero-tt-road-bike-for-sale

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=3761058;search_string=s5%2520tt;#3 761058

the last one is a S5 fitted with TT bars and extensions. Highly relevant, as the AR was determined to be on par with the S5 in terms of aerodynamics (good thing).

Great info, and along the lines of what I have been thinking. Thanks for the detail!

I don't do many tris, and I feel like a waste having this TT bike just sitting around most of the year. I was surprised it wasn't faster on the hilly race, but it makes sense, and I am definitely more confident descending on the EVO(most of the course is rough, pot-holed chip seal). The EVO is also infinitely more comfortable and enjoyable to ride.

The felt is just thought on how I can downsize from two bikes to one. I love the EVO, and it is my favorite bike I have ever owned(I have owned some nice bikes), but I do find the Motobecane titanium to be rather comfortable, and versatile in its own right because it can fit up to 40c tires.

The DI2 might be a nice idea as well, especially if I have enough spare parts to sell the EVO for ~$1000, and the cervelo for ~$500, and buy the AR frame for less than $500, and then have some cash left over.