Can Someone Explain the Performance E-Bike?

[fignon's barber]

Ok, I understand the e-bike idea in that it allows people who aren't fit to experience the outdoors on a bike. Great, But what is this new trend of performance e-bikes? They show what look to be racing types out training on them, ie Colnago E64:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/colnago-launch-e64-e-bike/

Or the new Look:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bernard-hinault-endorses-new-look-e-765-optimum-e-road-bike/

What are you supposed to do with these things?

[palincss]

Age and/or infirmity.

[eddief]

but maybe ebikes can be super funnner for a lot of folks; fit or not fit.

[Black Dog]

There is a battery powered device for every kind of missing the point. ;)

[fignon's barber]

I mean, I can certainly think of a few races that an e-bike would have made more pleasant.
Maybe motopace yourself?

[KonaSS]

A good use case is Lenard Zinn, who has heart issues. He still wants to go on moderate to fast paced group rides with his friends. From my understanding, he uses an e-bike that allows him to do so.

Seems like a great idea in my book. I would certainly want to do the same.

[Elefantino]

I'd ride one. Eventually, probably, will.

[Bonesbrigade]

I’m thinking this trend is going to keep going. We’re going to get to the point where non ebikes are like like single speeds where those who want simplicity and are “nonconformist” remain on these relics.

You’ll get people commenting and heckling in races as you go by:

“Did you see that guy, he didn’t have a motor!”

“Go non motor guy, you’re killing it!” as you roll through mid pack.

[eddief]

and really likes normal bikes and then decides to get a good ebike...if they ever go back to the normal bike. or maybe if you are fit you just don't let yourself get an ebike until you "need" one?

i'm afraid if i get one i'll never go back to normal.

[Elefantino]

I’m thinking this trend is going to keep going. We’re going to get to the point where non ebikes are like like single speeds where those who want simplicity and are “nonconformist” remain on these relics.
A beast on a fixed gear passed me on the way up the Stelvio.

I passed him on the way down. but barely. For a nonconformist, he was amazing!

[BobbyJones]

Maybe racing will evolve into motorized racing, much like MX / track racing?

Let's face it: If it moves, people will race it, regardless of what it is.

[Kirk007]

Last summer when climbing Ventoux I was passed by a lot of e-bikes, not the type to which the OP refers, just regular old ebikes, and good for those folks - from the appearance most of them would probably never have even attempted such a climb. At 60 and far from a natural born climber, climbs like Ventoux or any of the big climbs in the Alps and Dolomites are a challenge for me. I get to the top but slowly. And a bigger problem is recovering day after day on an 8-15 day tour. A bike like the C64 - some day in the foreseeable future, if I want to still do those types of trips, and I hope that I am able - I think one of these bikes could be the difference between having a great time vs getting in the sag van all too often.

[d_douglas]

I used to think this was the dumbest thing in the industry, but now I see the value.

There are more than a few eMTBs on trails these days. As it gets harder to push up steep hills, these things become more viable to me :)

[pobrien]

We will need to have EMF detectors to spot the electric bicycles.

It is one thing to have a motor and another to hide that fact. I reckon there will always be those who want to cheat. That is dead obvious on many fronts.

The unfortunate part is that some folks will get tired of the fakers blasting by them that they figure they will take up running or swimming or similar.

[Tony]

but maybe ebikes can be super funnner for a lot of folks; fit or not fit.

This. Most people who are down/confused about E bikes have never tried them.
They are a blast to ride and will be a big part of the future for cycling both road and mtb.

[GonaSovereign]

Bikes with motors are for less able people. That's a positive statement in some scenarios and a negative one in others. Insert your own examples.

I personally would rather go slower or a shorter distance than attach a motor to my bike. When i can't keep up with my fast friends, I'll ride with my slower ones. I'll always be people powered.

[scoobydrew]

I can't answer OP's question about the "performance" e-bike, but I can see the merits of an e-bike for urban and utility purposes. I tried out my co-worker's longtail cargo e-bike and I can see myself owning one if I had the space and the funds.

[velotel]

I'm sick and tired of all these batteries for stuff left and right. They're environmental disasters in terms of production and on the other end, when they're dead and tossed and maybe recycled to some extent and maybe not at all. For sure there are lots of solid arguments for their use on bikes for commuting to work, doing the shopping, transporting people who need help, etc., etc, all perfectly valid reasons that I heartily agree with. But, they are still battery driven and batteries are a massive problem, like those stupid coffee capsules.

So yea, in the end I'd compromise for e-bikes for commuting, stuff like that but for performance, for being able to get up hills that would not be possible otherwise, I'd ban them instantaneously if it was my call. And now e-bike races! Do modern humans have any consciousness at all? Where the heck are we going with all this craziness? Phones that cost a grand and last a few years I suppose, electric cars that effectively produce more pollution than petrol cars if the manufacturing and disposal of the batteries is considered along with the production of the electricity itself, though I suppose if the latter is wind generated (causing cancer is it!?) or solar generated or something like that then the pollution costs are reduced substantially.

Between e-cars and e-bikes, I much prefer the latter. But like I said once some time ago, for myself between doing drugs and riding an e-bike, I'll take the former, or maybe just park the bike and go back to hiking.

That's my rant for the day.

[gemship]

where the motor is the rear hub on that new Colnago I bet if someone were to break a spoke and warp the rim that could be a troublesome proprietary repair deal.

[buddybikes]

Simple $$$$$ businesses are there to make money - there is an opportunity with aging cyclists. Right or wrong should be discussed regarding public right of ways.

[nmrt]

I agree. Sure, there are multitudes that e bikes help whether for commuting or even for fitness e-riding. I can imagine the smile on these people who commute to work fully aware that if it were not for e-bikes, they would be driving to work. And even the joy of the person who crests a hill on his fitness e-riding that he otherwise would not do.

but for every one person that the ebike helps, i can imagine multitudes of others where the acquisition of an ebike is just that, a acquisition, no different than the treadmill in their basement. I fear the marketing and the consumerism rampant these days that justify for many people many things even if they will rarely use it. But unlike the treadmill, the battery will have been made, barely used by the owner and eventually discarded.



I'm sick and tired of all these batteries for stuff left and right. They're environmental disasters in terms of production and on the other end, when they're dead and tossed and maybe recycled to some extent and maybe not at all. For sure there are lots of solid arguments for their use on bikes for commuting to work, doing the shopping, transporting people who need help, etc., etc, all perfectly valid reasons that I heartily agree with. But, they are still battery driven and batteries are a massive problem, like those stupid coffee capsules.

So yea, in the end I'd compromise for e-bikes for commuting, stuff like that but for performance, for being able to get up hills that would not be possible otherwise, I'd ban them instantaneously if it was my call. And now e-bike races! Do modern humans have any consciousness at all? Where the heck are we going with all this craziness? Phones that cost a grand and last a few years I suppose, electric cars that effectively produce more pollution than petrol cars if the manufacturing and disposal of the batteries is considered along with the production of the electricity itself, though I suppose if the latter is wind generated (causing cancer is it!?) or solar generated or something like that then the pollution costs are reduced substantially.

Between e-cars and e-bikes, I much prefer the latter. But like I said once some time ago, for myself between doing drugs and riding an e-bike, I'll take the former, or maybe just park the bike and go back to hiking.

That's my rant for the day.

[palincss]

We will need to have EMF detectors to spot the electric bicycles.

It is one thing to have a motor and another to hide that fact. I reckon there will always be those who want to cheat. That is dead obvious on many fronts.

The unfortunate part is that some folks will get tired of the fakers blasting by them that they figure they will take up running or swimming or similar.

The only motor that's really "hidden" is the Vivax, and given that any bike that has [Davidson e-Assist, or Signature Cycles customs, all built around the device] one is going to run at least $13,000 it's very unlikely you're ever going to see one. All the other systems are right out there in plain sight to see.

I know several people who ride e-bikes. None have any interest in "cheating." One has had multiple heart attacks and bypass surgeries; one is in her early 80s. All they want to do is ride with their friends. I don't see any great sin in that, and I don't see it as "faking" at all.

[merckxman]

In February the UCI announced its decision to integrate e-mountain bike racing “in response to growing public interest in this new form of cycling.” Harbinge of things to come?

[Tony]

In February the UCI announced its decision to integrate e-mountain bike racing “in response to growing public interest in this new form of cycling.” Harbinge of things to come?

This is where I see a big growth of e bikes, a swell of interest as company's keep refining them in over the years

[KidWok]

Bikes with motors are for less able people. That's a positive statement in some scenarios and a negative one in others. Insert your own examples.

I personally would rather go slower or a shorter distance than attach a motor to my bike. When i can't keep up with my fast friends, I'll ride with my slower ones. I'll always be people powered.

I've been an e-bike commuter for the last three years. I'm still a road cyclist as well. The class 3 e-bike replaced my car as my primary source of transportation and all that just-getting-around gives me a nice base fitness year-round, which allows me to start building power on my road bikes earlier in the Spring. Your "statement" isn't my reality. It's provocative, which goes hand-in-hand with being a projection of your values on everyone.

Why does anyone here need to feel contempt towards anyone else and their recreational choices? Same people are probably pissed that motorist treat them as less-than-human.

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/08/jra-with-the-angry-asian-enough-with-the-e-bike-hate-already/

Tai

[pobrien]

Hi Palincss

It is one thing to have a motor and another to hide that fact. I reckon there will always be those who want to cheat. That is dead obvious on many fronts.

As I said, it is one thing to have a motor and another to hide that fact. I am not against people using electric scooters or bikes or whatever. It is the ones who will hide the motor that I would call cheats. Like performance drug use.

Patrick

[Kirk007]

I was on two tours last summer. One the first was a couple, 84 and 83. They rode almost every day through Provence and the Maritime Alps. They skipped Ventoux. Everyday they were a good 2 hours + later arrival than the rest of the group. They had a good time I'm sure, but there were days when you could tell they were really struggling. Would it be terrible if they were to have ebikes to help them enjoy themselves. The next tour was through the Italian Alps and Dolomites. A gentleman and his wife, she rode in the sag van each day; he rode his Pinarello as far and he could each day and then climbed in the van and watched the rest of the ride from there. He's been doing tours in Italy for 17 straight years, he loves the riding and the comradery of the group. I bet he wouldn't have minded having one of the e -Pinas or the new e-64, so he could have kept up with the group rather than delaying the sag van every afternoon until he finally had to call it quits. Honestly I don't see the harm here.

As to the environmental impacts - if batteries on bikes were the worst we had to worry about we wouldn't have much to worry about at all. I've been working professionally to save the world for over 30 years - a losing battle, homo sapiens will eventually devour the earth - the most invasive species of all. If a decade from now an ebike helps keep me fit, sane and happy I'm not going to worry to much about it being one more scrap on the heap in the end.

[Alaska Mike]

I have no problem with utility uses of ebikes. Makes a lot of sense in some areas, it gets a car off the road, and provides some measure of exercise to the rider (depending on boost level).

I have no problem with riders with legitimate physical limitations, like Lennard Zinn. Especially those who are upfront with those around them and nobody in the group has any problem with it.

I'm not talking about those who can't accept that they're getting older and a little slower, or feel like it's a good way to shortcut to a competitive edge on the local spirited group ride. Nope, nope, nope. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but if you can't keep up, keep trying until you can or find another group ride that rides at your pace. If you can't make it up that climb without a motor, work at it until you can or find a less-challenging climb.

When I see an otherwise healthy individual on a performance-oriented ebike, I'm certain they have a vape pen in their jersey pocket, write Star Wars fan fiction in their mom's basement. I've been called a Nazi and a Taliban (Talibani? Talibanese?) on another forum because I don't like them in performance settings and don't want to be around them. Such is the state of our society.

And yes, I am facing a decline in performance due to the effects of aging. Every few years I have to make adjustments to my training or whatever to try to eke out some measure of performance that used to come much easier five or ten years ago. I'm not one of those freaks that never seems to age. I accept this, because I've earned it.

I'll just ride shorter distances. I'll climb smaller mountains. I'll ride a bit slower. I'll do what I can, and I'll do it under my own power, because that's what I believe the sport is all about. YMMV.

[eddief]

here is interesting. My bet is you'll live longer and bike longer if you spend less energy on defining others without a clue that you might be mistaken. what possible difference could it make to you what someone else is doing for fun, exercise, or smoking? rigidity is the downside of our society, not vaping. i dare you to ride a good ebike and tell us you did not have fun.


"When I see an otherwise healthy individual on a performance-oriented ebike, I'm certain they have a vape pen in their jersey pocket, write Star Wars fan fiction in their mom's basement. I've been called a Nazi and a Taliban (Talibani? Talibanese?) on another forum because I don't like them in performance settings and don't want to be around them. Such is the state of our society."

[Alaska Mike]

here is interesting. My bet is you'll live longer and bike longer if you spend less energy on defining others without a clue that you might be mistaken. what possible difference could it make to you what someone else is doing for fun, exercise, or smoking? rigidity is the downside of our society, not vaping. i dare you to ride a good ebike and tell us you did not have fun.

I'll admit it. I'm a Type A roadie. Wait, is that being redundant? I was Type A before I started riding road bikes, and I'll be that way until I die.

Actually, a little rigidity (maintaining standards) would probably do our society a lot of good. Yet, every year the bar drops a little lower until even James Cameron won't be able to dive deep enough to find it.

Then again, 26 years in the military probably skewed my perspective. When slightly more than a quarter of the potential applicant pool is qualified to serve, and only one percent of those are willing, I may be out of step. As a result of this conditioning, I'm pretty much disgusted no matter where I look. And yes, vaping is this generation's Zima.

I can have fun many ways. I choose to have fun by propelling myself without a motor. I like being around people that feel the same way. Let the moped riders do their own thing somewhere else. I feel no need to include them in my Taliban games.

[Kirk007]

I'll admit it. I'm a Type A roadie. Wait, is that being redundant? I was Type A before I started riding road bikes, and I'll be that way until I die.

Actually, a little rigidity (maintaining standards) would probably do our society a lot of good. Yet, every year the bar drops a little lower until even James Cameron won't be able to dive deep enough to find it.

Then again, 26 years in the military probably skewed my perspective. When slightly more than a quarter of the potential applicant pool is qualified to serve, and only one percent of those are willing, I may be out of step. As a result of this conditioning, I'm pretty much disgusted no matter where I look. And yes, vaping is this generation's Zima.

I can have fun many ways. I choose to have fun by propelling myself without a motor. I like being around people that feel the same way. Let the moped riders do their own thing somewhere else. I feel no need to include them in my Taliban games.

Wait a minute, I'm confused here - its ok for some in public settings, and some rationales are ok but others aren't and for the others, they're not welcome in public spaces where you're recreating? Who is setting the rules here?

If you're racing, the race organizers set the standard. If you're on an organized grouip ride, the group sets the standards. I'm good with all that - no ebikes if that's the rules. But if you're just riding recreationally on public roads, its not your personal playground, is it?

Out here (or there) is there any standard (with regard to bike criteria) that matters other than the one that each individual sets for themselves? I know, I know, that last statement is anathema for the followers of the velomanti, but come on, I mean, exactly what have you spent 26 years fighting for if not the individual's inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to ride whatever hell bike they want to as long as they aren't physically endangering someone?

Just my opinion and experience after 6 decades on this rock - but constantly sizing folks up is exhausting; I can understand how this makes you feel disgusted no matter where you look. Easy cure for that ....

[Alaska Mike]

Wait a minute, I'm confused here - its ok for some in public settings, and some rationales are ok but others aren't and for the others, they're not welcome in public spaces where you're recreating? Who is setting the rules here?

If you're racing, the race organizers set the standard. If you're on an organized grouip ride, the group sets the standards. I'm good with all that - no ebikes if that's the rules. But if you're just riding recreationally on public roads, its not your personal playground, is it?
You're awfully judgmental for someone so accepting.

I didn't say the moped riders couldn't use the roads (where permitted). I gave a few instances where I said I could understand their use. Don't put words in my mouth. I just don't want to be around them in a performance-oriented context. Why is this so hard to understand? Why is it wrong for me to make judgements about people based on what they do? People (especially roadies) do it all of the time. If I think performance moped riders are douche-flute-toting morons, that's simply my opinion and personal bias. It has more to do with what I consider a bicycle and what I consider a moped than any stylistic set of "rules" that have more to do with aesthetics than function.

...but again, as long as they don't impose themselves upon existing groups or activities without consent, they can do whatever they want to. I'll judge them, because roadie, but if they're getting some exercise...

Ride an ebike up Ventoux. Ride a Peloton bike in your solarium. Ride some some cobbled together configuration of bike parts that has no real functionality. Just because someone will judge you shouldn't stop you from doing it (unless otherwise prohibited), unless you value that person's opinion.

[weisan]

I saw the Colnago e-Bike two days ago and thought to myself - I love cycling to a large extent because it allows me to be in close contact with the outside world, wind in my face, visit places, time alone, time together with friends, history etc etc...putting a battery or motor powered in a bike - DOES NOT change any of that.

And from an environmental point of view, we have a bigger...much bigger fish to fry, many other areas that require more of our immediate attention and response.

So, I embrace e-Bike wholeheartedly.

[oldpotatoe]

And since the 'environment' has been brought up..Li-On batteries(type in 95%+ in ebikes) are not recyclable(nor is carbon fiber) plus most power generation in the US is still natural gas or coal(89% in Texas..those 2..as an example).

Just in the 'no such thing as a free lunch' category...:)

https://electricbikereview.com/forum/threads/the-environmental-cost-of-electric-bikes-vs-cars-and-motorcycles.22740/

[palincss]

Getting back to the original post's question - what's up with the "performance e-bikes"? Up to now, the market has been oriented towards utility e-bikes: townies, commuters, load carriers. Range may or may not matter, but weight definitely doesn't because the idea is for the motor to always be running.

But those bikes aren't very suitable for the kind of recreational riding we do. The upright townie position puts a limit on distance - I've never been able to ride a bike like that more than 20 or 30 miles before my hands go numb. When you transform a setup like that into a road bike with drop bars, even though the riding position may be fixed you're still such a weight burden riding without motor assist is impossible, and even the "Eco" setting does nothing more than overcome the mass of the bike. You don't get any help on the hills until you move up a notch past that, and now range limitations impose limits.

The idea with bikes like the Colnago mentioned in the original post, or like the Pinarello Nytro (uses the Fazua motor, not yet available in the US) is to have a bike that basically feels, rides and fits the same as the unassisted bike, that can be ridden without assist (in fact, the Fazua motor and battery can be removed, converting back to an unassisted bike) using the motor only where terrain makes assist necessary.

This kind of bike is a Class 1: assist cuts out at 25 km/hr - between 15 and 16 mph. Weight of bike, motor and battery typically is under 30 lb, similar to the bikes we were riding back in the 1970s and 1980s, and they can be ridden with assist off or on the lowest setting. Battery capacity is less than that of the big power/big weight Class 3s, but if the motor is only used on climbs, range can extend to even centuries.

A rider with a problem like Zinn's would find a bike like this a godsend. So too would a rider from a fairly flat area who is on a tour in a mountainous area. Or my 80 year old friend, or the one who had had two heart attacks and multiple bypass surgeries. Or the one hampered by what's known as "cancer fatigue."

Nobody's really sure how large the market is for this type of bike, or who it consists of, not even the manufacturers. One of the most popular motor drives, the Fazua, used in Europe for this class of bike has not yet been approved for use in the United States. Most bike shops I've visited in search of information know little or nothing about them, and folks there have the same confusion or hostility regarding them we've seen in this discussion thread.

[CunegoFan]

I'll admit it. I'm a Type A roadie. Wait, is that being redundant? I was Type A before I started riding road bikes, and I'll be that way until I die.

Actually, a little rigidity (maintaining standards) would probably do our society a lot of good. Yet, every year the bar drops a little lower until even James Cameron won't be able to dive deep enough to find it.

Then again, 26 years in the military probably skewed my perspective. When slightly more than a quarter of the potential applicant pool is qualified to serve, and only one percent of those are willing, I may be out of step. As a result of this conditioning, I'm pretty much disgusted no matter where I look. And yes, vaping is this generation's Zima.

I can have fun many ways. I choose to have fun by propelling myself without a motor. I like being around people that feel the same way. Let the moped riders do their own thing somewhere else. I feel no need to include them in my Taliban games.

You said it. I am constantly shocked at the condition of our young employees. Nearly all seem to have the physiques of forty year old men. Two hundred plus pounds is the new normal for those in their twenties. It is bad enough that instead of Big Wheels all the little kids drive around in exercise free toy cars, but now people feel they have to fake participating in a healthy activity by using mopeds disguised as real bikes.

Everyone should leave out the corner case of eighty-year-olds. The industry is not making performance motorized bikes for them. That market is too small. It's like when BMI is brought up, people claiming to be too muscular for BMI to apply pour out of the woodwork.

Vaping is disgusting but I think the legalized weed will do far more harm. I would have preferred decriminalization so there is still a stigma (and probably fines) attached. It's only a matter of time before the potheads complain about employers who drug test are unjustly discriminating against potheads.

[oldpotatoe]

I can have fun many ways. I choose to have fun by propelling myself without a motor. I like being around people that feel the same way. Let the moped riders do their own thing somewhere else. I feel no need to include them in my Taliban games.

I agree with Alaska Mike..I view 'ebikes' in the same vein as recumbents. If you have some physical reason that you cannot ride an unpowered, double triangle bicycle, by all means, an EBike(ebike 'bent??), great idea.

For ME, riding my normal 2 hour ride, having it be electric assisted wouldn't make it any more 'fun'..in fact, maybe less fun cuz I didn't 'do the work'..maybe faster, but so what..

SO..YMMV and all that, and if ya wanna ride one, go ahead..but for a variety of reasons, not for me(nor is a 'bent'...

[fignon's barber]

Getting back to the original post's question - what's up with the "performance e-bikes"? Up to now, the market has been oriented towards utility e-bikes: townies, commuters, load carriers. Range may or may not matter, but weight definitely doesn't because the idea is for the motor to always be running.

But those bikes aren't very suitable for the kind of recreational riding we do. The upright townie position puts a limit on distance - I've never been able to ride a bike like that more than 20 or 30 miles before my hands go numb. When you transform a setup like that into a road bike with drop bars, even though the riding position may be fixed you're still such a weight burden riding without motor assist is impossible, and even the "Eco" setting does nothing more than overcome the mass of the bike. You don't get any help on the hills until you move up a notch past that, and now range limitations impose limits.

The idea with bikes like the Colnago mentioned in the original post, or like the Pinarello Nytro...………..


Thank you for that response. I was curious where the manufacteurers were trying to position these performance e-bikes. Makes sense. Didn't intend this to evolve into a debate on e-bikes in general, nor a pulpit for forumites to insult each other.

[oldpotatoe]

Vaping is disgusting but I think the legalized weed will do far more harm. I would have preferred decriminalization so there is still a stigma (and probably fines) attached. It's only a matter of time before the potheads complain about employers who drug test are unjustly discriminating against potheads.


Serious thread drift here. Pot way less damaging than alcohol PLUS, no employer wants an employee come to work drunk OR stoned. BUT, the issue is THC can be found in your system(altho not stoned) for a long time..like 30 days plus. As for vaping and pot? Nicotine is HUGELY addictive, I'd like to see more employers test for nicotine along with THC and hire based on that(non use)...

How about testing for alcohol use?

[Hellgate]

Serious thread drift here. Pot way less damaging than alcohol PLUS, no employer wants an employee come to work drunk OR stoned. BUT, the issue is THC can be found in your system(altho not stoned) for a long time..like 30 days plus. As for vaping and pot? Nicotine is HUGELY addictive, I'd like to see more employers test for nicotine along with THC and hire based on that(non use)...



How about testing for alcohol use?Lots of employers test for drug and alcohol use. For many people keeping a license or certificate depends on it.

As far as tobacco use it is becoming more common to test for nicotine for eligibility for lower insurance rates through an employer.

[Kirk007]

You're awfully judgmental for someone so accepting.

yes I fully recognize that I'm a hypocrite in being judgmental about the judgmental. Human not Buddha.

Don't put words in my mouth. I just don't want to be around them in a performance-oriented context. Why is this so hard to understand?

I was just trying to understand where you draw the line; and we appear to be in basic agreement on that.

Why is it wrong for me to make judgements about people based on what they do? People (especially roadies) do it all of the time. If I think performance moped riders are douche-flute-toting morons, that's simply my opinion and personal bias.

opinions to which you are entitled. My opinion - being judgmental has an important function, evolutionarily, historically and even today - are you friend or foe? But I also think that the process of being judgmental, particularly when shared with others can lead to a break down in civility in society. Our current state of politics is a good example of how behaivor and expression based judgements run amuk can be destructive,


Just because someone will judge you shouldn't stop you from doing it (unless otherwise prohibited), unless you value that person's opinion.

or unless that judgment spreads and becomes dangerous. Ex: Car drivers who judge roadies to be adults riding toys and wearing spandex, fair game for ridicule or worse.....

[oldpotatoe]

Lots of employers test for drug and alcohol use. For many people keeping a license or certificate depends on it.

As far as tobacco use it is becoming more common to test for nicotine for eligibility for lower insurance rates through an employer.

I agree..when in the USN, ANY evidence of anything not federally legal(like THC), almost immediate firing(admin discharge under 'Operation Upgrade'..as a CO, I could 'fire' somebody in 5 days)..BUT also had squadron parties where drinking is not only allowed but encouraged..Just a huge double standard when you consider alcohol is a far more dangerous 'drug'...

Even today..pot use in military a big no-no...alcohol and nicotine..fine..

BUT, 'test for alcohol'? How do they do that? Even in USN aviation..8 hours, bottle to throttle(I mandated 12 hours bottle to brief)...in a relatively few hours, alcohol is gone from system.

Not aware of any license or certificate that prohibits alcohol use to obtain and keep..again, being 'faced' during any work is bad...

[eddief]

fun = fun

or

work = fun

or

a mixture

or

with ebike

[benb]

I think the performance eBikes are indeed pretty silly.

You can always ride a motorcycle. The colnago will probably cost more than any motorcycle I owned. Nobody judges you for riding one.

I can ride 1000 miles in a day on a motorcycle. I can’t do that on a bicycle. A racing eBike to accomplish a ride I can’t do on a regular bike seems just as odd.

They’re motorcycles, plain and simple.

There are always group rides that are too fast, even in your prime, I totally don’t get wanting assistance to stay in a pack, even for someone like Zinn. You are not missing a great social experience on those rides, everyone without a motor is too gassed to talk.

My experience has been motorcycle rides were actually a way nicer social experience. You don’t have to be type A to fit in!

[dem]

I'd say I'll be in this market as I watch various body parts give up.

My favorite type of ride, 6 to 8 hours mixed terrain, with 10,000+ ascent.. with the best parts a minimum of 3000+ ascent away - I can see these types of rides fading away in the next 5 or 10 years without a boost.

For a 2 hour leisure ride in the flat lands? I'd just ride slower and don't need to spend $5K+ for that.

[buddybikes]

I live close to bike trail i am on pretty much every day. On weekends in summer people rent (I think) these things, they many are 20 somethings but without biking experience. They have little manners/rules of the road, and instead of going 12mph on their hybrid, they are going 16, again without full control. Risk of crashing into someone is enhanced.

[benb]

Do these things taper available boost based on the riders power output?

Me plus 250 watts I’m pretty sure I’d do high enough speed on flat that I’d think it should require a registration and Moto license.

There are all kinds of issues if these get allowed in competition. It’ll be an arms race and turn into a slower motorcycle race. Stuff like a sprint finish will be insanely dangerous.

Will anyone want to watch if they have to run on a closed course race track?

[fiamme red]

These bikes will play havoc with Strava leaderboards.

[Joe Remi]

I've owned/built a bunch of ebikes; currently going human power only, but I'll get another one eventually.

As far as I'm concerned they're different things for different types of riding, and folks can enjoy both.

[fa63]

I have a flat bar e-bike that I use as a commuter / errand-runner / grocery getter. Rode over to our friends house earlier today; 5 miles with quite a few hills in nearly 80 degree weather and didn't really break a sweat :-)

I have also been eyeing one of these "performance" e-bikes lately; the Orbea Gain. Would love to get one for me and one for my wife so we can do credit card touring type rides. My wife is not an avid rider, but she also has a flat-bar e-bike which has gotten her into riding and now she sounds like she wants to try doing longer rides. She has no interest in killing herself climbing hills, so it would have to be another e-bike. This is where something like the Orbea Gain makes a lot of sense for riding from one town to another (maybe 60 or so miles at a time, about how long the battery would last for her), with some panniers/bags to carry the basics.

And I have no interest in chasing anyone's Strava records...

[palincss]

Do these things taper available boost based on the riders power output?

Me plus 250 watts I’m pretty sure I’d do high enough speed on flat that I’d think it should require a registration and Moto license.

There are all kinds of issues if these get allowed in competition. It’ll be an arms race and turn into a slower motorcycle race. Stuff like a sprint finish will be insanely dangerous.

Will anyone want to watch if they have to run on a closed course race track?

"These things" come in three classes: Class 1, pedalling required, assist quits at 25 km/hr in Europe, 20 mph in the US; Class 2, pedaling not requi'red, hand throttle, not common here and more mopedish than bicyclish; Class 3, pedalling required, assist stops at something like 25 or 28 mph. Class 3 aren't allowed on bike trails, and in some places require licenses. https://www.montaguebikes.com/folding-bikes-blog/2018/03/electric-bicycle-types-explained/

[eddief]

saw one at the shop today. looks like fun to me:

https://glorycycles.com/pinarello-dyodo-e-road-bike-black-red/?gclid=CjwKCAjwv6blBRBzEiwAihbM-Y5qlCLk7JUJFtP9QhtjZKD4tkxFJ-FFTJWyTwijHAmc4ECNwbjpyBoCCpMQAvD_BwE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms4XzQcsBns

[Monthly Payment]

I too have been wondering about why make these performance E-bikes. I don't get this market.

Why get the Trek Madone/Specialized Venge/SystemSix version of the E-bike, over getting the Domane/Roubaix/Synapse version, that can accommodate bigger tires, disc brakes, relaxed geo? In theory, you're going as fast as a non-E performance road bike when on a chunkier/robust gravel-type E-bike, and capped by the 28mph cutoff in most instances.

[palincss]

I too have been wondering about why make these performance E-bikes. I don't get this market.

Why get the Trek Madone/Specialized Venge/SystemSix version of the E-bike, over getting the Domane/Roubaix/Synapse version, that can accommodate bigger tires, disc brakes, relaxed geo? In theory, you're going as fast as a non-E performance road bike when on a chunkier/robust gravel-type E-bike, and capped by the 28mph cutoff in most instances.

I can't speak to Specialized, but Trek does not have an e-assist version of the Madone.

Trek has two e-assist bikes with drop bars, the Domane+ and the Crossrip+. Both are Class 3. The Domane+ will fit 32 or possibly 35mm tires, while the Crossrip+ will fit a 40mm tire with fenders (included) and comes with a built-in rear rack.

[Monthly Payment]

I can't speak to Specialized, but Trek does not have an e-assist version of the Madone.

Trek has two e-assist bikes with drop bars, the Domane+ and the Crossrip+. Both are Class 3. The Domane+ will fit 32 or possibly 35mm tires, while the Crossrip+ will fit a 40mm tire with fenders (included) and comes with a built-in rear rack.

I was using the Specialized/Trek/Cdale as illustrative examples of go fast models, rather than referencing them as specific examples of existing e bikes.

Specifically, Bianchi’s model is the Aria which is their aero road mode converted to E. But if a motor is kicking in, why do I need more than their Domane equivalent?

Going back to the original question, this is a category I don’t get. If I want speed and I’m willing to use a motor, why not a bigger bike that has more versatility and a motor?

[fried bake]

Long rides with significant altitude. I’ll pick one up within the next couple years when (hopefully) the weight and battery life have been sorted.

As well, do they add 250 watts or is it restricted to 250 watts such that, irrespective of rider input, once e-assist is engaged the power is fixed?


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[doubleklobbs]

I was using the Specialized/Trek/Cdale as illustrative examples of go fast models, rather than referencing them as specific examples of existing e bikes.

Specifically, Bianchi’s model is the Aria which is their aero road mode converted to E. But if a motor is kicking in, why do I need more than their Domane equivalent?

Going back to the original question, this is a category I don’t get. If I want speed and I’m willing to use a motor, why not a bigger bike that has more versatility and a motor?

Your assessment is completely correct: why have the e-bike version of a category that is by design compromised to extract the most out of your human capabilities? That's the point of the high end road bike, to be as light and aero as possible to make the most of your human input. Replacing that human input part in the top of the line road bike category creates a product that is strictly for vanity.

Here's the uncomfortable truth: these bikes are for folks who are struggling with accepting their aging bodies. They used to be able to lead the group on a road bike, but can't keep up any more. Instead of retiring to a slower bike/crowd, the mfr can now sell them a brand new expensive bike and keep them in the fast crowd for a few more years.

[unterhausen]

I don't like to ride on the road enough to make these kind of bikes a good idea. Although speed makes mixing with traffic better in a lot of situations. I know there are people that have them and really like them. Since they are pedal assist, the rider still gets plenty of exercise, it just takes off the top end efforts.

I want an ebike for commuting and errands. I would use a bike like that all the time instead of a car.

[fried bake]

I’ve never lead the group, always worked hard to keep up, but as one who has exercise induced arrhythmia (and failed ablation procedure) and who loves riding bikes I’m excited at the prospect of being able to enjoy my pursuits (including centuries) in good company once again.




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[palincss]

Specifically, Bianchi’s model is the Aria which is their aero road mode converted to E. But if a motor is kicking in, why do I need more than their Domane equivalent?


The Bianchi e-assist road bike that's available in the US has the Ebikemotion X35 system, a small motor in the rear hub. It's a Class 1, assist stops between 15 and 16 mph. It's quite light (as e-bikes go) and can be ridden without using the motor. It's a good example of essentially a bike (as opposed to a motorcycle you pedal) that can provide assist when it gets beyond the rider's abilities.


Going back to the original question, this is a category I don’t get. If I want speed and I’m willing to use a motor, why not a bigger bike that has more versatility and a motor?

In other words, why not a Class 3 that weighs almost 50 lb but can provide assist at 28 mph instead of a light bike that feels like a bike rather than a motorcycle, that you can ride without having to use the motor, and that you could actually get up and down your cellar stairs or into the back of your car?

Maybe it's not that you want to ride with the AA group but aren't fast enough and are too lazy to train. Perhaps it's the angina you're feeling on climbs, or possibly that heart problem that Zinn has; or maybe all you want to do is be able to keep up with the friends you used to ride with before you had the heart attack. Maybe you're recovering from a bad crash, or a surgery or chemo, it's been six months since you've been on a bike and you miss your friends and your old life.

Or possibly you're a weaker spouse who wants to keep up with a stronger, more committed partner. Or maybe a casual rider who goes out for a ride maybe a couple of times a month but wants to take part in some longer rides, maybe in the half-century range. Or you're hitting your eighties and you just don't have what you used to have any more, but bicycling has been your life for over 40 years and you just don't want to give it up.

I don't think it's at all about cheaters in the peloton. Come on - we all know groups that ride in a paceline have never had any trouble getting rid of someone they think doesn't belong there. If you think an e-bike rider is cheating, dump them. The folks I see as a market for bikes like this are looking to overcome handicaps, not claim Strava bragging rights.

[benb]

This probably comes down to why you cycle and how much importance you put on being in a group ride.

If I'm not fit enough to be in the mix on the ride I have little care about going on the ride. I have way better things to do with my life in terms of social life if the social aspect is the important part.

If I can't ride with a group riding with that group is often not the right training to get strong enough to ride with the group.

I am not sure I can possibly see a future where I am in a weakened state due to aging or a health problem and it's more important to ride with a group than it is to just ride alone and work on my own health/rehab. If 10mph is my pace I don't see any reason to get an eBike to go ride with a bunch of people who average 15mph.

So if you're the type who constantly rides with a group and that is extremely important you're going to see this differently than someone like me who sometimes views riding with a group as a necessary evil and is perfectly happy (maybe more happy) to ride alone most of the time. There is no drama riding alone. No need to stop at coffee shops too often and for too long, no need to worry about bad paceline behavior, no need to worry about group leaders signaling badly and creating dangerous traffic situations, etc..

[cinco]

I'm not a hater. Anyone who likes the idea is welcome, even to ride with me in a fast group.
However for me, it's a matter of pride. To be able to push the pace of a group, or even barely hang onto a group, 100% of my own manpower is what I derive satisfaction from on these rides. I don't think I would be happy with myself if it required a motor.
So, I'm in the camp of not quite understanding the purpose of a motorized race bike.

Andy in Houston

[oldpotatoe]

Like a guy at interbike once said, when I asked about a bike ‘gizmo’...”what’s it for?”
“For selling”, he said...:eek:

[palincss]

I'm not a hater. Anyone who likes the idea is welcome, even to ride with me in a fast group.
However for me, it's a matter of pride. To be able to push the pace of a group, or even barely hang onto a group, 100% of my own manpower is what I derive satisfaction from on these rides. I don't think I would be happy with myself if it required a motor.


What's your plan for when you can't do that any more? I know there's a choice. There are many people I used to ride with 10 or 20 years ago who dropped out of bicycling and took up other activities when they couldn't keep up any more.

[fried bake]

The Bianchi e-assist road bike that's available in the US has the Ebikemotion X35 system, a small motor in the rear hub. It's a Class 1, assist stops between 15 and 16 mph. It's quite light (as e-bikes go) and can be ridden without using the motor. It's a good example of essentially a bike (as opposed to a motorcycle you pedal) that can provide assist when it gets beyond the rider's abilities.







In other words, why not a Class 3 that weighs almost 50 lb but can provide assist at 28 mph instead of a light bike that feels like a bike rather than a motorcycle, that you can ride without having to use the motor, and that you could actually get up and down your cellar stairs or into the back of your car?



Maybe it's not that you want to ride with the AA group but aren't fast enough and are too lazy to train. Perhaps it's the angina you're feeling on climbs, or possibly that heart problem that Zinn has; or maybe all you want to do is be able to keep up with the friends you used to ride with before you had the heart attack. Maybe you're recovering from a bad crash, or a surgery or chemo, it's been six months since you've been on a bike and you miss your friends and your old life.



Or possibly you're a weaker spouse who wants to keep up with a stronger, more committed partner. Or maybe a casual rider who goes out for a ride maybe a couple of times a month but wants to take part in some longer rides, maybe in the half-century range. Or you're hitting your eighties and you just don't have what you used to have any more, but bicycling has been your life for over 40 years and you just don't want to give it up.



I don't think it's at all about cheaters in the peloton. Come on - we all know groups that ride in a paceline have never had any trouble getting rid of someone they think doesn't belong there. If you think an e-bike rider is cheating, dump them. The folks I see as a market for bikes like this are looking to overcome handicaps, not claim Strava bragging rights.



+1 well said!


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[benb]

What's your plan for when you can't do that any more? I know there's a choice. There are many people I used to ride with 10 or 20 years ago who dropped out of bicycling and took up other activities when they couldn't keep up any more.

If you don't make the sport about keeping up with a group ride and you enjoy cycling for cycling this just doesn't come into play at all. The people you're talking about were probably riding more for bragging rights and less for their personal enjoyment of cycling. They're probably the kind of rider who would not cycle unless lots of other people are cycling, cycling is popular, and they live in an area with lots of cyclists. I think there were a lot of people like this cause we had a massive bubble in road cycling IME between 2000-2010.

I would be super stoked to have some kind of life change and move to the middle of nowhere and be the only cyclist around for a hundred miles if it meant I was riding alone in the most beautiful/challenging country. When I started cycling I lived in an area where I could ride 5000 miles a year and see other cyclists 2-3 times a year unless I traveled to a group ride and it didn't make me like cycling any less fun. (Also when you run into riders rarely like that they are super nice about 100% of the time cause none of you get to talk to any riders very often.) I probably liked it more. Less cyclists usually means you live in a more rural area. A more rural area generally means better riding. Fewer cars, cleaner air, better sights, more hills & mountains.

Most of the groups I see out on the road are not faster than me, in any area even if cycling is popular the really fast racers are a small percentage of all riders out there, you don't run into them unless you seek them out. There are lots and lots and lots of rides around I could go join and have no trouble keeping up with, but I don't bother 90% of the time. I don't need it.

This sure is a giant weakness of our sport though. I just went rock climbing yesterday. You could be best friends with the most elite climber in the world and you're totally mediocre and you could climb near each other and both have a great time and push yourself. Our sport you can't really do that cause one person is going to have to be in recovery and the other has their lungs hanging out to be together. I just don't see motors as a solution.

[Tony]

I'm not a hater. Anyone who likes the idea is welcome, even to ride with me in a fast group.
However for me, it's a matter of pride. To be able to push the pace of a group, or even barely hang onto a group, 100% of my own manpower is what I derive satisfaction from on these rides. I don't think I would be happy with myself if it required a motor.
So, I'm in the camp of not quite understanding the purpose of a motorized race bike.

Andy in Houston

Same. I think cycling in regards to racing should be like sailing. Sail boat in a race should only be powered by wind. Same restrictions should also apply in a bike race, only powered by 100% of the rider.

[illuminaught]

Yeah... I get it for the commute... But I've seen a few guys riding trails on e bikes... I don't understand that.

[Monthly Payment]

To be clear, I am not against E bikes. I use the rental E Citi bikes regularly and it is fantastic I can do errands quickly without fatiguing myself.

I am not concerned about cheating in races or Strava. At all. I jumped in on this thread cause racy E bikes didn’t make sense to me as a potential consumer. If/when I get an E bike, I’d rather get one that gives me a little more versatility to become my gravel or commuter E bike. One that takes more than 700x28s if I want the extra cush. The comments here about fitting in on the group ride and vanity were considerations I just never thought of.

[Jaybee]

Yeah... I get it for the commute... But I've seen a few guys riding trails on e bikes... I don't understand that.

Being outside is awesome, and not everyone has the fitness/health to say, climb 1000 vertical feet in the first 3 miles like pretty much every trail here seems to do. The few ebike riders I've run into into here have all been pretty cool people who either a) have been riding for years, are aging but still want to be outside or b) were pretty out of shape and saw this as a window into a more fit lifestyle.

As far as I can see, ebikes mean:

less car trips
more people outside instead of on their couches
more people for cycling advocacy

All are wins in my book.

[Kirk007]

Here's the uncomfortable truth: these bikes are for folks who are struggling with accepting their aging bodies. They used to be able to lead the group on a road bike, but can't keep up any more. Instead of retiring to a slower bike/crowd, the mfr can now sell them a brand new expensive bike and keep them in the fast crowd for a few more years.

Maybe that's your truth and the crowd that you describe; I dunno I'm not part of that crowd. But I think you're painting with too broad of a brush. Some of us will never learn or give in to the "act your age" paradigm.

I prefer to ride alone or in groups on tours in places like the Alps. I've had my decades worth of competitive sports and don't need or want that as part of my current life. I wouldn't see a bike like this as an indicator of me struggling to accept my aging body. My old body at 60 can still do most of what it could do at 40 on a bike (Ventoux, Gavia, Stelvio last year, regular old road bike). Will that be true at 70, 75, 80? I dunno but I do know this - if alive I will still love being in those landscapes, and on a bike if possible.

So if riding an e "racing" bike let's me enjoy 8-15 days of riding in the Alps, or Provence or Tuscany, whereas a nonmotorized bike would mean riding 25 mile flat courses instead; and makes the experience more pleasant then it would be on a 50 pound ebike, then I would characterize choosing to use that "race" e bike as balancing physical limitations with all the other benefits of riding; doing all that I can to enjoy my aging body in beautiful locales. If that's struggling, bring on the fight.

I'm slightly amazed at how many paceliners seem to view cycling only through the competitive race lens.

[benb]

More just why make it look like a race bike.

If you're only able to ride a 20-25 mile flat ride and you're going to use motor assistance do you really need a race posture on the bike? Are you going to fit on these things if they keep them looking like race bikes?

I guess it still remains to be seen what kind of range these have. My guess is that if you need a lot of assistance you're not doing an all day multiple mountain pass epic ride on them without running out the battery.

[45K10]

I was thinking of planning a bike trip with my Dad (72) who has a bad knee but still rides when he can. My dad got me into cycling back in the 80's so we want to go N.E. Tennessee to ride some the roads we rode on when I first starting cycling. It is fairly hilly so I suggested that my Dad should get an e-bike while I was talking to him on the phone yesterday.

The silence was deafening.....

[benb]

Looking at Bosch's calculator for range it doesn't sound like you're doing 10,000ft elevation gain centuries on any of these any time soon unless you can do them unaided at 18-20mph pace.

100kg/220lb rider + bike weight (remember the bike is going to be heavy) and 16mph average speed it guesses the battery is dead in < 20 miles when you select mountainous terrain and moderate wind.

[fa63]

For the Orbea Gain, I was told the following:

"For a 200lb rider, you get about 50 miles with reasonable riding or about 4000 ft of elevation".

There is supposed to be a second battery that essentially doubles the range, so it might be possible to do a hilly century with two batteries.

[benb]

Obviously it's going to be super variable based on how strong the rider is.

[sitzmark]

More just why make it look like a race bike.

If you're only able to ride a 20-25 mile flat ride and you're going to use motor assistance do you really need a race posture on the bike? Are you going to fit on these things if they keep them looking like race bikes?

I guess it still remains to be seen what kind of range these have. My guess is that if you need a lot of assistance you're not doing an all day multiple mountain pass epic ride on them without running out the battery.

Why allow anyone who doesn't race to have a bike that looks like a "race bike"?

Yes position matters. Aero is the biggest factor in cycling. Regardless of the power source, the less aero resistance to overcome, the more efficient use of that power will be - i.e. longer range for a battery-aided system that has a very modest amount of power anyway.

I'm perfectly content to let the market dictate what is available for purchase rather than force a constraint that resembles something I approve of. Life is too short for me to worry about what everyone else is doing. If someone wants a 28lb "race bike" and it helps them enjoy cycling in a way they can't without it, GO FOR IT. By definition, a 28lb "race bike" with limited amounts of energy in reserve has many compromises ... when the power is depleted it's up to the rider to propel 28lbs of bike forward.

[Kirk007]

More just why make it look like a race bike.

maybe so it handles rides more like a race bike (which I'm defining to include up to 28mm tires). See the review on an earlier like from the SLC bikeshop (handles like a regular Pinarello but heavier (sluggish) given the extra 7.5 pounds in the rear hub; sounds similar to riding with a Rohloff or watch the GNC comparison - https://youtu.be/F8tV8cWeY3Y

If you're only able to ride a 20-25 mile flat ride and you're going to use motor assistance do you really need a race posture on the bike? Are you going to fit on these things if they keep them looking like race bikes?

Agreed on the first sentence, actually would take it abit further - not seeing a point to it at all on a 20-25 mile flat pleasure cruise; but what about a 60 mile ride with 5-6K elevation gain that the rider climbs at 10-12 mph? That could be a typical ride through Provence or the Maritime Alps. From the GNC review it sounds like these bikes would cover that.

I guess it still remains to be seen what kind of range these have. My guess is that if you need a lot of assistance you're not doing an all day multiple mountain pass epic ride on them without running out the battery.

Time will tell I guess, but if I understand how they work its variable assist and battery life will depend on how much juice you're drawing. So if the rider is just adding 100W to their own power on sustained climbs and not using it on downhills or flats I suspect it may go quite a distance.

Personally I would prefer that the day never comes that I feel a need to have one to do the type of riding I enjoy, which includes hauling my heavyweight 8 crew frame up 20+ km alpine climbs for the joy of getting to the top and screaming down the otherside. But if the day comes that the difference between doing and not doing that in a reasonable fun way is a battery, I'll feel none the lesser for the assist.

[Kirk007]

Why allow anyone who doesn't race to have a bike that looks like a "race bike"?



Is this a serious question? Look at almost any bike posted here or on VSalon. I bet way less than 50% are raced, whereas I'd guess 95% plus look like race bikes.
Why, I'll defer to a more learned poster: search e-richie and bike fit.

[fa63]

Obviously it's going to be super variable based on how strong the rider is.You are right. The idea is that you select the amount of assist you want, and that is what the motor provides. Then it is up to the rider to add as much more as they can/want on top of that baseline power. So if you were very strong already and wanted to add just a little bit, of course you can go a longer distance. Or if you want to ride like you normally would, then you would go just a lot faster :-)

In my case for example, I can ride at 200W for a while but 300W is not sustainable for more than about 30-40 minutes. So 100 extra Watts would make climbing a lot more comfortable, while still keeping me working and giving me a reasonable battery range.

[sitzmark]

Is this a serious question? Look at almost any bike posted here or on VSalon. I bet way less than 50% are raced, whereas I'd guess 95% plus look like race bikes.
Why, I'll defer to a more learned poster: search e-richie and bike fit.

No this was a response to why make e-Bikes look like a "race bike". Who cares what it looks like.

[Kirk007]

No this was a response to why make e-Bikes look like a "race bike". Who cares what it looks like.

yep sorry I misread your post. And you are right, 28 pounds is a lot of road bike to push forward if its not flat compared to the weight of most current offerings (although I think weight is overrated; I have a 22 pound bike that gives little if any ground to my 16 pound bike). It will be interesting to see this technology develop and how successful they are in getting the weight reduced.

But if these are closer to 20 pounds with a normal rear wheel then that opens up some strategies - two rear wheels, assisted for climbing or hilly rides, nonassisted for flats? Or maybe there will be pelotons of octogenarians flying around the flatlands at 40 kph!

[palincss]

No this was a response to why make e-Bikes look like a "race bike". Who cares what it looks like.

If "looks like a race bike" means it has drop bars and a narrowish saddle, compared with "looks like a townie commuter," the way most all e-assist bikes did until a year or two ago, then it makes a lot of difference.

I commuted almost daily for around 15 years on townies. I was never able to ride one for more than 20 or 30 miles before my hands went numb. 50 miles on a townie? Forget about it, simply not happening. That's not what they're for.

It's not the "aero position," but it is about bars that let you move your hands around and a riding position that has you spreading your weight over the bike rather than just concentrating it on the seat, and a position that lets you pedal with some power, that isn't compromised by the need to stay within the limits a suit jacket put on you.

I think very few who ride these bikes want a position with a lot of bar drop. For me, I want none at all. I like bars == saddle height, a position common for tourists and long distance riders.

[palincss]

yep sorry I misread your post. And you are right, 28 pounds is a lot of road bike to push forward if its not flat compared to the weight of most current offerings (although I think weight is overrated; I have a 22 pound bike that gives little if any ground to my 16 pound bike). It will be interesting to see this technology develop and how successful they are in getting the weight reduced.


28 pounds is in the range of the (very nice) bikes we rode in the 1970s. It's feather light compared to the 47 pounds or so that a Class 3 big power/heavyweight bike like the Trek Crossrip+ weighs. It's svelte compared to the 37 pounds or so Trek says the Domane+ weighs. You can get a 28 pound bike in and out of the basement just fine, and put it in the back of a car. Raise that to 47 pounds, and it's a different story. I tried picking up the Crossrip+ the way I do to put a bike in the back of my VW Alltrack, and I just couldn't do it until the salesman helping me removed the battery. Then it was a big lift, but I could manage it and still maintain control.


But if these are closer to 20 pounds with a normal rear wheel then that opens up some strategies - two rear wheels, assisted for climbing or hilly rides, nonassisted for flats? Or maybe there will be pelotons of octogenarians flying around the flatlands at 40 kph!

The bikes built with the Fazua system -- popular with this class of e-assist road bike in Europe, but (per a recent article in Bicycle Retailer) not yet approved in the US -- go that one better. The motor and battery can be removed from the bikes, leaving a lightweight regular road bike. There's a cover that fits over the space where the motor and battery go. The article said approval was expected sometime this spring.

[benb]

Even the Orbea Gain has 250W on tap with it's claim of "reduced assist". Unless they programmed it out to save battery (could be the case) it's got a 250W motor. That WAY more than makes up for 10lbs of weight.

Until the battery burns out any rider is going to be way way faster on these "race" eBikes than a normal bike. Cause a 25-28lb eBike will have essentially no penalty at all on flat. No aero penalty that makes any meaningful difference. It is going to be able to use the same tires as any analog race bike so it won't have a rolling resistance penalty. As soon as you turn uphill the motor will more than compensate for 10lbs.

They are all marketing "discrete" as a design advantage so there will surely be some hilarious group rides or even lower category races.

I've got two bikes that fit the same (minimal aero difference) and are separated by a similar amount of weight as these eBikes are from a top tier race bike. I have PMs on each and a pile of data I could go take a stab at what the real world penalty in watts for me is on the heavy bike... I highly doubt it is even 100W though, if these bikes are hitting 150-250W assists they are going to be really fast if you manage the battery.

[fa63]

On my commuter bike (with a 500 Watt rear hub motor), there are several modes:

Eco Mode - which gives just enough power to make up for the extra 40 lbs the bike weighs (it weighs about 60 lbs)
Level 1 - feels like a slight tailwind on your back at all times
Level 2/3 - you are going fast
Sport mode - you are hauling

There are also several modes on Orbea Gain, but I haven't had a chance to ride it to know what it feels like. I imagine the lowest setting on the Gain also doesn't add much, but you would get long battery life. The full 250 Watts would be a big boost of course.

Even the Orbea Gain has 250W on tap with it's claim of "reduced assist". Unless they programmed it out to save battery (could be the case) it's got a 250W motor. That WAY more than makes up for 10lbs of weight.

[sitzmark]

If "looks like a race bike" means it has drop bars and a narrowish saddle, compared with "looks like a townie commuter," the way most all e-assist bikes did until a year or two ago, then it makes a lot of difference.

I commuted almost daily for around 15 years on townies. I was never able to ride one for more than 20 or 30 miles before my hands went numb. 50 miles on a townie? Forget about it, simply not happening. That's not what they're for.

It's not the "aero position," but it is about bars that let you move your hands around and a riding position that has you spreading your weight over the bike rather than just concentrating it on the seat, and a position that lets you pedal with some power, that isn't compromised by the need to stay within the limits a suit jacket put on you.

I think very few who ride these bikes want a position with a lot of bar drop. For me, I want none at all. I like bars == saddle height, a position common for tourists and long distance riders.

I suspect you're right. However, doesn't change physics. The more aero the rider is, the less energy the motor is going to draw from the battery over the same distance/speed. Right now limited energy on reserve is the limiting factor to what the bike will actually do for the owner.

Your example of a "townie" is my point. Take away the frontal area of a more upright position and the battery will power greater distance and/or more speed. Set up a "townie" cockpit with drop bars and narrow saddle and you've got the same hand positions as a "race bike". Does that make it a race bike? Amount of drop is rider's choice. Aren't bike labels silly? :)

What seemingly initiated the hand-wringing of this thread is the taking of high-end carbon "race bikes" and putting motors in them so people can look like real bike racers instead of fake bike racers. That some real chaos in the world might result.

A few guys in the groups I ride always emerge from winter months a little fitter than those who didn't put in the work. By prime-season weekly night rides (same course) have bumped a few average mph's. Some of the group are leading the pack and others are hanging on by their last energy chew. All with the same goal of getting stronger and fitter. It just happens.

If an e-biker shows up and rides off the front, we tell "George" we'll see him back at the shop. Same as the pack moose who is too strong for the rest of us. If "George" can just barely hold onto the back of the paceline with his e-bike ... I'd say "how's it going back there George? happy you're on the ride with us tonight." The "bitch" for either George will be when his battery runs out ... and it will. Maybe not on the 40 mile Thursday ride, but on the 80+ mile, 20mph+, 6k+ vert Sunday morning ride I'm pretty sure it will.

[makoti]

If someone wants a 28lb "race bike" and it helps them enjoy cycling in a way they can't without it, GO FOR IT.

That's STILL 12lbs lighter than the first bike I bought for myself.

[Mzilliox]

There is a battery powered device for every kind of missing the point. ;)

Man do i love this. Put it on a t shirt:banana::banana:

[Tony]

"We are convinced that E-Bike competitions have great potential"
https://cyclingtips.com/2019/04/uci-fights-with-motorcycle-federation-over-who-gets-ebikes/

[Joe Remi]

That's STILL 12lbs lighter than the first bike I bought for myself.

Yep! And I've owned a bunch of seriously heavy ebikes; if the answer to "why does it look like a race bike?" is "28 lbs.", sign me up.

[oldpotatoe]

"We are convinced that E-Bike competitions have great potential"
https://cyclingtips.com/2019/04/uci-fights-with-motorcycle-federation-over-who-gets-ebikes/

Of COURSE...

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=video+of+lawn+mower+races&view=detail&mid=3B0F79CC0FFA418F4DE63B0F79CC0FFA418F4DE6&FORM=VIRE

[rzthomas]

I dunno, as a relatively young person who had a major health crisis last year while also in prime fitness, I can rationalize e-bikes. Thankfully I don't have any real long-term constraints on my ability to exercise, but if did, that would mean I couldn't really ride any of the good stuff in the area since any of the hills would be too much to handle. As a result, an e-bike would allow me to ride something other than the flats at a safe intensity and at least allow me to retain a core aspect of my identity and sense of self-worth: riding bikes.

I get that racing e-bikes is stupid. But if you're someone of limited fitness for whatever reason and live in an area with lots of hills, an e-bike is fine. Not everyone wants to ride a loud motorcycle, either.

[Mark McM]

While e-bikes are not for me (at least not at the moment), I don't begrudge anyone who wants to use one for utility or recreation. But I do have concerns regarding where e-bikes may be allowed to be ridden. I don't think there's a problem with using them on public roads and in bike lanes, but I'm not sure where I stand on recreational paths (you'll recall an earlier thread regarding a death on the Minuteman Bikeway after head-on collision between cyclists - this happened only a few miles from where I live). However, I do have a very big concern about e-bikes ridden in forests and conservation lands.

We have many parcels of town forests and conservation lands here in New England, which are open to recreation (hiking, horseback riding skiing, snow shoeing, cycling, etc.). These often have regulations very specifically banning motorized vehicles. It is likely that when these regulations were formulated, they were aimed at motorcycles and ATVs. While it can be argued that e-bikes are not be quite the same as a motorcycle, it does become a slippery slope. E-bikes vary in power, and while some classes of e-bikes have speed limiters, 20 mph on single track is not the same as 20 mph on pavement. There are enough conflicts between cyclists and other trail users as it is, and e-bikes can only exacerbate things. As most trail users will likely not be able to distinguish an MTB from an e-MTB, it may lead to all bikes banned from trails.

[Bradford]

...I don't think there's a problem with using them on public roads and in bike lanes, but I'm not sure where I stand on recreational paths ...

This is my concern with ebikes. I commute 3 days a week on the Platte Trail coming into Denver, then about a mile on the Cherry Creek trail. The last few years, ebikes have been few and far between. This year, I see ebikes every day and they seem to be moving, as best I can estimate, about 25 mph. I know I was doing 19 mph the other day and one blew by me. This is way too fast for a MUT that is chock full of runners, dog walkers, scooters, electric skateboards, one wheels, wildlife, and people commuting on human-powered bikes.

A lot of the posts here assume that ebikes are a way for diminished riders to ride at previous levels with friends or alone, and I can see the appeal for that. However, what I'm seeing in real life is people traveling significantly faster than a normal bike and doing it in a place where that speed is simply not safe. To me, they are being ridden like motor cycles on the bike path and I don't think that is wise; I certainly do not enjoy having them blow by me on a narrow trail. I'm all for banning all motorized vehicles on paths and trails.

[mtechnica]

I get the point of e-bikes but imo they should all be hard limited to 20mph under assist, and the non peda assist types and ones that go 30mph should be considered electric scooters and not be allowed on bike paths, in bike lanes, or in cycling events.

Also the strava gripe is a legitimate concern, there are already people on leaderboard with times they got on e-bikes. In the end it doesn’t really matter but if you want to go down that road then what does matter? We are all going to die anyways. It’s lretty nihilist and pointless to decide something doesn’t matter because strava has a purpose and people stealing segments with e-bikes ruins the fun for people that care about that kind of thing. You don’t see people driving formula 1 cars in spec Miata races either, there’s a reason sports have rules.

At any rate it seems like e-bikes have their place but I too question how many people need an otherwise legit racing bike but with a motor on it. I get the Leonard zinn and sick people thing I guess, but to be fair that doesn’t seem like the way the “bikes” are being marketed...

And as for racing e-bikes, talk about stupidity. Remember group B? Why do we need the sport to be made any more dangerous than it is? The playing field is just as level without motors.

As others have said I suppose they have their place for commuting and ultimately less cars on the road are a good thing, but hat doesn’t mean we have to ignore the potential downsides that rampant e-bike use will probably bring.

[Kirk007]

A lot of the posts here assume that ebikes are a way for diminished riders to ride at previous levels with friends or alone, and I can see the appeal for that. However, what I'm seeing in real life is people traveling significantly faster than a normal bike and doing it in a place where that speed is simply not safe. To me, they are being riding like motor cycles on the bike path and I don't think that is wise; I certainly do not enjoy having blow by me on a narrow trail. I'm all for banning all motorized vehicles on paths and trails.

Seems like we've come full circle. This thread started with "explain these performance ebikes to me and now we're talking about, I think, bikes of a different nature. At least in Seattle, the folks on ebikes behaving like this are on the commuter variety, dressed in street clothes and, to grossly characterize, don't appear to have the physical conditioning to do anything that resembles the riding most here do for recreation, let alone racing. Now, companies like Pinarello, Colnago, Orbea release ebikes that resemble "race" bikes, and if you look at the marketing on their websites or that of the e-assist vivvax drive system like in the Davidson bikes, its all about folks with "diminished" capacity being able to enjoy riding with friends and family, not about busting strava or being an idiot on the MUP (in my experience the idiots on MUPS are often commuters and now they're just emboldened to go faster on an ebike). Idiots and assholes will always be true to form and yes a motorized vehicle may make them more dangerous but (and I can't believe I'm about to say this: ebikes don't run over people, people do).

As to trail use. I can definitely see where e-mountain bikes could exacerbate the tensions that already exist between trail users and could be the straw that breaks the camels back in some locations. If I was really curious, and I'm not, I'd research what the experiences are in Europe. When I was there last summer there was a lot of interest and use in ebikes on trails and it was being heavily promoted by bike shops.

[oldpotatoe]

https://www.bikeradar.com/us/mtb/news/article/uci-bans-federation-internationale-de-motocyclisme-electric-mountain-bike-racing-53857/