36 holes - why not?

[Clean39T]

I've tended to just sell off any 36 hole wheels that land in my garage. But the latest pair is so nice that I'm thinking of keeping them and letting some others go instead.

And of course instead of just trusting my experience, I'm curious if there are any real drawbacks to running 36 hole wheels in terms of ride quality.

I always figured they'd be overly stiff. But giving that I'll be running them with 32-36c tires, at 45psi or less, does that at all matter?

4 spokes worth of weight is insignificant here.

And aerodynamics behind fat tires doesn't seem worth sweating either.

Where are others landing on this these days?

[ultraman6970]

If you are going to ride 15 mph - 25 mph... I would not care too much.

Some guys are too into aero and super light stuff, and honestly to go 25 to 40 km/h you can do that with a 12 kg bike w/o any problem if you are trained obviously :P

[m_sasso]

Cleaning them is no fun at all, 8 spokes more expensive and limited modern rim availability with 36 holes, besides this little to write or worry about.

[bicycletricycle]

Perhaps a little slower but with fat tires I don’t think you can really feel it. I like them for the long term durability

[Ralph]

All wheels had 36 spokes when I started riding. Also used some 280 g tubular rims then for light wheels. Some bikes used 40 spoke rears.

I would still use 36 spoke rears for just riding wheels if I weighed over 200. If not racing. Why not? (if I could find hubs and rims)

[martl]

I always figured they'd be overly stiff. But giving that I'll be running them with 32-36c tires, at 45psi or less, does that at all matter?


It doesn't, and they aren't.

[Gummee]

One of the benefits is that if you break a spoke, there are more of them left to support the load. While I never did it, I heard stories from teammates that raced 35h wheels when they broke a spoke and didn't have time to fix their wheel before the next race.

My personal $.02 is that low spoke count wheels don't belong on gravel. ...but YMMV as with everything

M

[oldpotatoe]

I've tended to just sell off any 36 hole wheels that land in my garage. But the latest pair is so nice that I'm thinking of keeping them and letting some others go instead.

And of course instead of just trusting my experience, I'm curious if there are any real drawbacks to running 36 hole wheels in terms of ride quality.

I always figured they'd be overly stiff. But giving that I'll be running them with 32-36c tires, at 45psi or less, does that at all matter?

4 spokes worth of weight is insignificant here.

And aerodynamics behind fat tires doesn't seem worth sweating either.

Where are others landing on this these days?

The only difference is if the spoke breaks on a 32h set and wouldn't on a 36h set.:)

NO difference in ride quality...about 30 grams heavier(an average banana weighs 3 times that)..Lots of marketing and BS about low(er) spoke count wheels and 'bomb proof', 'overbuilt', 'boat anchor' type crappola.

The way to make a light wheelset is to use a light hubset, light rimset and adequate number of spokes. 'Wheel designers' remove 12-18 spokes(about 3 or 4 OUNCES, about 100 or so grams) BUT then add 200 grams to the rim to make it reliable..BUT sure looks cool at the coffee shop and the ooos-ahhhs when the 'other guy' lifts the bike, 'damn, sure is light with those wheels!!'..

Yikes..The immortal Jobst Brandt(RIP sir), thought the 'ideal' wheelset was a light rimset and 40h rear and 28h front..

[oldpotatoe]

Cleaning them is no fun at all, 8 spokes more expensive and limited modern rim availability with 36 holes, besides this little to write or worry about.

Pretty funny...about 8Bucks on that $500++ wheelset..YES, availability is adios(Velocity, a few others)..BUT from above, marketing, pablum...

[Pastashop]

Just look at this nonsense design with too many, too densely spaced spokes:

https://www.noesnest.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/33/2018/09/Golden-Gate-Bridge.jpg?x17810

Stupid engineers, didn't know any better... If they reduced the number of those vertical-running, skinny tension members, they totally could have made the whole bridge lighter and more durable!

[ghammer]

Go for it, especially if you are heavy or muscled. I have a pair of 32h 3x on my winter bike and it has served me very well. One aspect to notice is those wheels can be a bit *too* stiff. I forgot about it actually. When I put lighter(ish) wheels on the same bike, the ride quality improved dramatically. That is with keeping everything the same: tire width, pressure, and both wheels have 23mm wide rims. Even with 28mm tires the difference is quite stark. But I say go for it, they're indestructible and won't hold you back.

[palincss]

A few years ago, I was leading a 60 mile ride from Thurmont MD to the Gettysburg Battlefield. That same morning, a fast group in our bike club was doing a ride in Nanjemoy MD.

About 2 hours into my ride, one of the riders broke a spoke. He was on his touring bike which has V section rims and 36 spokes. We were about 45 minutes out of Fairfield PA, about 4 miles from the Sachs covered bridge at the time, at a spot in the middle of nowhere. The Sachs bridge was the closest place where you could actually sit down if you had to hang out and wait, and it would have been an hour's walk to get there.

And it would have been a good long wait, too: 40 miles to finish the ride and get back to Thurmont -- in view of all the sightseeing we were going to do in the Battlefield, at least 4 hours -- and then the best part of another hour to drive from Thurmont back for the rescue.

Since his wheel had V section rims with 36 spokes, it didn't get out of shape at all. We taped the broken spoke to an adjacent spoke and he went on to do the entire ride.

Meanwhile, back at Nanjemoy, at almost the same time, one of the riders in the other group also broke a spoke. Pretty much all of Nanjemoy is the middle of nowhere, including the spot where he was when his spoke broke. No stores, nowhere to get water. One good thing, everywhere you look there's a good tree to get behind for a bio-break.

His wheel was one of those low spoke count aero wheels with around two dozen spokes, and it immediately went out of shape so badly it jammed in the chainstays.

He spent the better part of the day sitting by the side of the road in the middle of the woods waiting for the ride to get back to the starting point, so that someone could come back with a pickup truck and rescue him.

[ryker]

If you're building new wheels (perhaps around 36h hubs on hand), you can use lighter spokes to ensure wheels are supple to your liking.

[bikinchris]

My philosophy is very old school: unless your wheels are race day only, it should be a strong enough wheel that it doesn't need lots of attention. You shouldn't have to true wheels or worry that if you break a spoke, your ride is over.

[OperaLover]

The only difference is if the spoke breaks on a 32h set and wouldn't on a 36h set.:)

NO difference in ride quality...about 30 grams heavier(an average banana weighs 3 times that)..Lots of marketing and BS about low(er) spoke count wheels and 'bomb proof', 'overbuilt', 'boat anchor' type crappola.

The way to make a light wheelset is to use a light hubset, light rimset and adequate number of spokes. 'Wheel designers' remove 12-18 spokes(about 3 or 4 OUNCES, about 100 or so grams) BUT then add 200 grams to the rim to make it reliable..BUT sure looks cool at the coffee shop and the ooos-ahhhs when the 'other guy' lifts the bike, 'damn, sure is light with those wheels!!'..

Yikes..The immortal Jobst Brandt(RIP sir), thought the 'ideal' wheelset was a light rimset and 40h rear and 28h front..

What he said! Seriously! I built up s pair of 36H tubies and they are a joy to ride! However, I also like steel bikes and tubies so what does that say about me?!?!

[11.4]

Just to repeat ...

Exhaustive testing has shown that spoke count has essentially zero effect on ride quality. Further, the way you go to ultra-low spoke counts is to add strength or rigidity (which means weight) to the rim. If you go with a deep section rim, you have a totally rigid rim which has little or no give, so the spokes have less flexion to deal with. However, that's only from the spoke's point of view. From the rider's point of view, a deep section rim, a high spoke count, high flanges, or whatever, are largely irrelevant to ride quality -- it's the tire section and inflation pressure that is the overwhelming contributor, and you're nailing that one (pardon the very inappropriate metaphor for a tire).

An 18-spoke wheel with a deep section carbon rim can handle a broken spoke pretty much as well as a 36-spoke wheel with a box-section alloy rim. Durability isn't an issue here either.

The only real loss is that unless you're very light yourself, you'll be on 36-spoke rims that will weigh more than an 18-spoke carbon rim, simply because 36-spoke rims only came in very fragile and dent-prone light versions and bomber heavier ones. But are you racing? And winning or placing second? If not, your wheels are fine.

You'll find that 36-spoke rims are around but the rims are somewhat limited in availability and options, so you may not have the options to rebuild later that you'd have with 24 spokes or something like that.

[Clean39T]

Hi all, thanks for the input - sounds like I should just give them a try - so that's what I'm a gonna do...

The rims are DT440 laced to Record hubs - all black - look great.

Will report back.

[oldpotatoe]

Hi all, thanks for the input - sounds like I should just give them a try - so that's what I'm a gonna do...

The rims are DT440 laced to Record hubs - all black - look great.

Will report back.

Been a while since built any DT440...did they even come in 36h? Don’t think so but could be wrong.

[Clean39T]

Been a while since built any DT440...did they even come in 36h? Don’t think so but could be wrong.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190404/8b80cdc25fb977e319d64e5773360151.jpg

[bambam]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190404/8b80cdc25fb977e319d64e5773360151.jpg

Is it me or are those 32 spoke?

On my brevet bikes I use 36. They have fenders and the fenders are tight so I want a broken spoke to have as little affect as possible.

on a Texas hill country century ride once on my brevet bike I notice a fender rub. Rim failure caused 2-4 spokes to loosened when the rim split the second wall. Was able to tension enough to get me back and eliminate the fender rub.
Use a back up wheel the rest of the trip.

approx. 175 lbs at the time and seems like overkill but piece of mind and with a little more effort I can keep up with some faster riders.

36 spokes are pretty and you also lose weight because they have to drill out those hubs and rims.

That said if you have some campy 36 hole hubs you don't want Let me know. Definitely overkill :)

Ride Safe,
BamBam

[Clean39T]

I'm an idiot. They are 32H. Good grief Clean [emoji1787]

Well, this thread may be the silliest I've ever posted, but I did learn a few things.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Black Dog]

Clean, I hope that you are not an accountant. Those are 32 spoke wheels. :) They are built on amazing hubs and amazing rims. That is one durable strong set of wheels.

[bambam]

Clean, be easy on yourself. Some people probably cant spoke count higher than 28.

As a side note, This is a good idea to carry
https://www.amazon.com/FiberFix-Emergency-Spoke-Replacement-Kit/dp/B001GSMQZC

(only quick reference I could find).

Practical application:
I wouldn't recommend this but...
One of our younger, goofier riders broke 2 rear spokes in a <32 spoke wheel and we used 2 of these to get him to finish the ride.
He made it with out wrecking.
Gave me a lot of confidence.

Ride safe,

[Clean39T]

Clean, I hope that you are not an accountant. Those are 32 spoke wheels. :) They are built on amazing hubs and amazing rims. That is one durable strong set of wheels.

Ha ha, nope - just words.. I swear I looked at them and counted when I first pulled em out of the box.

Glad I didn't sell them to somebody as 36H!

[Gummee]

Ha ha, nope - just words.. I swear I looked at them and counted when I first pulled em out of the box.

Glad I didn't sell them to somebody as 36H!

I don't remember if I have 5 or 6 pairs of 32/32 wheels in the garage. I know I only have 1 pair of 28/32 wheels and 2 pair of 28/28 wheels 'cause I've built almost all the wheels I've talked about.

The 'go fast' wheels come off in the fall and the 32/32 wheels go on. Reverse the procedure in the spring. That reminds me... the C24s need to go back on the steel bike!

M

[benb]

I have a set of 32H wheels that are 6 years old and have never been trued.. bombproof. I'd ride 36H ones too. Definitely no stiffness/comfort issues I can feel, the ones I have now are heavy and over built. I jump up and down curbs, take them onto singletrack, whatever. I rode some singletrack on them in the past week with 32c tires, rocks and roots and all. (ended up with sore wrists of course..) The stiffer more uncomfortable wheels I've had anecdotally have been the ones with fewer spokes & deeper rims. Could be placebo but that has always been my gut feeling.

It seems it's more about who built them though. I had a 28/32 F/R set that I was riding and they were super unreliable, they were just not built right and it was very hard to get anyone to fix them!

I have a set of Ksyriums (~$1000 version) right now and the rear wheel needs attention the same way.. it was not well built. But I've had Kyriums in the past that were bombproof.

I wish it wasn't as hard to find good repair work these days.. the Ksyriums I have no have been in for truing and they take my money and say "all better" and they're out of true an hour later. Not enough to really be annoying but enough that you can tell when braking. Historically I'm not used to having to put up with that.

[Jaybee]

Clean, I hope that you are not an accountant. Those are 32 spoke wheels. :) They are built on amazing hubs and amazing rims. That is one durable strong set of wheels.

Clean, you can be my accountant. I expect a 11% decrease in my tax liability though.

[hollowgram5]

Ha ha, nope - just words.. I swear I looked at them and counted when I first pulled em out of the box.



Glad I didn't sell them to somebody as 36H![emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]

[marciero]

36 are my go-to for tandem. The only very slight downside is that with the spokes closer together it is very slightly more difficult to screw on the pump head onto the valve stem. With the way rims are designed these days you hardly need 36. I've done loaded tour on a tandem with a front 32 spoke and panniers on the front. That was a Belgium plus. Gotta love Velocity for offering a full range of drillings. I have 36 hole Ailerons in 650b on one tandem. Have a set of Quill in the works in 650b. These rims are Belgium killers in disc and rim brake version.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm an idiot. They are 32H. Good grief Clean [emoji1787]

Well, this thread may be the silliest I've ever posted, but I did learn a few things.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Tee hee..easy to spot 32h..the spokes at the valve and opposite at rim joint are parallel..with 36 they are parallel at valve, crossed at rim joint..same as 28h..32 same as 24h..:)

[paredown]

Ha ha, nope - just words.. I swear I looked at them and counted when I first pulled em out of the box.

Glad I didn't sell them to somebody as 36H!

Well, if you get tired of them, sell them to me. I love those rims, and Record hubs are the jam.

OTOH, I do have a pair of 36h wheels stashed for my dream Credit card tourer/travel bike--frame TBD

They are built with those almost Record/Chorus quality Centaur hubs--with the Century gray finish, Ambrosio rims--along with a stash of all the other Century finish bits and bobs to build it up.

[oldpotatoe]

I have a set of 32H wheels that are 6 years old and have never been trued.. bombproof. I'd ride 36H ones too. Definitely no stiffness/comfort issues I can feel, the ones I have now are heavy and over built. I jump up and down curbs, take them onto singletrack, whatever. I rode some singletrack on them in the past week with 32c tires, rocks and roots and all. (ended up with sore wrists of course..) The stiffer more uncomfortable wheels I've had anecdotally have been the ones with fewer spokes & deeper rims. Could be placebo but that has always been my gut feeling.

It seems it's more about who built them though. I had a 28/32 F/R set that I was riding and they were super unreliable, they were just not built right and it was very hard to get anyone to fix them!

I have a set of Ksyriums (~$1000 version) right now and the rear wheel needs attention the same way.. it was not well built. But I've had Kyriums in the past that were bombproof.

I wish it wasn't as hard to find good repair work these days.. the Ksyriums I have no have been in for truing and they take my money and say "all better" and they're out of true an hour later. Not enough to really be annoying but enough that you can tell when braking. Historically I'm not used to having to put up with that.

Once the rim is deformed(bent), if bent up enough, truing will look nice in the truing stand but it probably won't stay true..as the spoke tension is no longer even..only 'fix' is a new rim..hence the issue with just about every 'wheelouttaabox'..factory proprietary wheels...

It IS all about initial build then first ride. If Built poorly, first ride=deformed rim and a 'problematic' wheel...

[AngryScientist]

haha, this thread is hilarious! :banana:

to re-iterate: spoke count alone tells you very little about a wheel and how durable it will be or how well it will ride. other factors are important. a wheel is a system of parts, not an isolated collection or components.

that said, i weigh about 130# and one of my smoothest, nicest riding set of wheels is 36/32 nemesis on record hubs. those black record hubs were only available with 36h for a very short period.

[dgauthier]

The only difference is if the spoke breaks on a 32h set and wouldn't on a 36h set.:)

NO difference in ride quality...about 30 grams heavier(an average banana weighs 3 times that)..Lots of marketing and BS about low(er) spoke count wheels and 'bomb proof', 'overbuilt', 'boat anchor' type crappola.

The way to make a light wheelset is to use a light hubset, light rimset and adequate number of spokes. 'Wheel designers' remove 12-18 spokes(about 3 or 4 OUNCES, about 100 or so grams) BUT then add 200 grams to the rim to make it reliable..BUT sure looks cool at the coffee shop and the ooos-ahhhs when the 'other guy' lifts the bike, 'damn, sure is light with those wheels!!'..

Yikes..The immortal Jobst Brandt(RIP sir), thought the 'ideal' wheelset was a light rimset and 40h rear and 28h front..

This. Couldn't have said it better.

The bike industry's gotta eat, so they churn product. A higher spoke count, light rim wheel will be relatively inexpensive to buy and repair (if ever), perform as well or better than the rider, and last for decades. You can't please your multi-national corporate parent selling wheels like that.

[MikeD]

I don't think there's a lot of difference between a 32 and 36 spoke wheel. It's only 4 spokes. 32 is the standard these days, and there's more availability in hubs and rims. Maybe if you're heavy it makes sense to go with 36, but I've not seen any difference in reliability personally. If the wheel is built right, properly stress relieved and the spoke line is good at the hub and spoke nipples, a broken spoke is a rare event, and if it happens, you should be able to true the wheel enough to make it home, albeit with a wobbly wheel.

[Mark McM]

When I started riding, 36 spokes were the norm, and 32 spoke wheels were reserved for racing (or 28 spokes for "lightweight" time trial wheels). Also, rims were much shallower than they are today, and many lightweight tubular rims were made not from extrusions, but from crimping round tubes into a rim profile. Needless to say, these shallow rims needed more support, so they needed more spokes.

Modern rims are deeper, stiffer and stronger. They need fewer spokes to maintain integrity. I'd wager that modern 24 & 28 spoke wheels are more reliable than the 32 & 36 spoke wheels of yore.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with added more spokes to modern rims. Not only do they increase overall reliability, but even if a spoke does break, they are more often still rideable until the spoke can be replaced.

[Ken Robb]

Just look at this nonsense design with too many, too densely spaced spokes:

https://www.noesnest.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/33/2018/09/Golden-Gate-Bridge.jpg?x17810

Stupid engineers, didn't know any better... If they reduced the number of those vertical-running, skinny tension members, they totally could have made the whole bridge lighter and more durable!

And it would be more aero. :banana:

[Gummee]

Once the rim is deformed(bent), if bent up enough, truing will look nice in the truing stand but it probably won't stay true..as the spoke tension is no longer even..only 'fix' is a new rim..hence the issue with just about every 'wheelouttaabox'..factory proprietary wheels...

It IS all about initial build then first ride. If Built poorly, first ride=deformed rim and a 'problematic' wheel...

...and doG help you if those Ksyriums are older than 5 years old. Mavic doesn't keep support material past 5 years.

AMHIK

M

[martl]

Yikes..The immortal Jobst Brandt(RIP sir), thought the 'ideal' wheelset was a light rimset and 40h rear and 28h front..
If that worked for a guy his size (and i have no doubt it did), then for a skinny midget like me, about half should be plenty. Which accidentially is almost what i ride (16/20) :)

[makoti]

I'm an idiot. They are 32H. Good grief Clean [emoji1787]

Well, this thread may be the silliest I've ever posted, but I did learn a few things.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

At least you didn't buy a rim to match your "36H" hubs only to find out they are 32H like someone I know. :rolleyes: