reading is fundamental

[oracle]

mine the content: (http://www.fastcompany.com/online/77/walmart.html)









In the years since Mariotti left Huffy, the bike maker's relationship with Wal-Mart has been vital (though Huffy Corp. has lost money in three out of the last five years). It is the number-three seller of bikes in the United States. And Wal-Mart is the number-one retailer of bikes. But here's one last statistic about bicycles: Roughly 98% are now imported from places such as China, Mexico, and Taiwan. Huffy made its last bike in the United States in 1999.

[shinomaster]

Umm.....are you saying we all should chip in and buy a jar of pickled cucumbers and share them?
Can they make pickles in China?

[gasman]

Ouch !


I had no idea Wal-Mart had so much power and could affect so many companies doing business with them.
I have only been to a w-m twice, it will make me think about returning. Luckily there are none of their stores close-by.

[shinomaster]

How could we get walmart to sell Campagnolo components?

[oracle]

Umm.....are you saying we all should chip in and buy a jar of pickled cucumbers and share them?
Can they make pickles in China?


i was hinting more at the 'wal-mart is the world's largest retailer of bicycles' part and so on, but i do love a good dill pickle...

[oracle]

How could we get walmart to sell Campagnolo components?


by convincing them (campag) to operate on a 1.3% margin structure for the millions of chinese-made record gruppos that they would need to produce in order to roll with wally....

[Samster]

How could we get walmart to sell Campagnolo components?i think the point is if you want Campagnolo to remain what it is today, you absolutely don't want them to sell through walmart.

a former student of mine started a small tool company. he wanted to go through walmart. i suggested he hold off until he had a more diverse collection of customers that could offset walmart's cost demands. he couldn't turn down the volume. that was precisely the problem for this first (and last) 2 years of operation. now he's out of business and working for a company that he doesn't own. at least he has a job...

read "Nickel and Dimed" for other stories...

as a business school prof, i feel very comfortable saying that walmart is a blight afflicting our planet. imo.

[shinomaster]

Well....ok...I just want record shifters that cost less than $400..like five years ago. Remember that?

[sg8357]

a former student of mine started a small tool company. he wanted to go through walmart. i suggested he hold off until he had a more diverse collection of customers that could offset walmart's cost demands..

You let a customer be more than say 20 percent of your business, you are letting the customer run your business, it is not a walmart thing.

Snapper walked away from wallyworld, Snapper is still is business, Huffy is toast, and crap toast at that.

Walmart itself is falling into the trap, the Chinese gummint has wallyworld, just about where wallyworld put Huffy. Walmart better play nice or the tap get shut off. MaoMart anyone ?

Scott G.

[Samster]

You let a customer be more than say 20 percent of your business, you are letting the customer run your business, it is not a walmart thing.bloody well right you are.
Snapper walked away from wallyworld, Snapper is still is business, Huffy is toast, and crap toast at that.that's what i'm sayin' imo.

[catulle]

Some people from were I live traveled to meet with Wal-Mart execs in order to sell them watermelons. They came back empty handed because only one of the W-M outlets consumes the whole national production of the local folks.

The very long and deep tentacles of the large corporations (i.e. DuPont) are staggering; their power is immense. It is better not to think or know if you want a restful sleep, atmo.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . this is exactly the reason I don't shop there.

This quote is key for me . . .

<<<Wal-Mart has also lulled shoppers into ignoring the difference between the price of something and the cost. Its unending focus on price underscores something that Americans are only starting to realize about globalization: Ever-cheaper prices have consequences. Says Steve Dobbins, president of thread maker Carolina Mills: "We want clean air, clear water, good living conditions, the best health care in the world--yet we aren't willing to pay for anything manufactured under those restrictions.">>>

Americans want everything for nothing. And the trend is getting worse--the selfish, arrogant sense of entitlement, and the bewilderment that the rest of the world is tired of it. The middle class is shrinking, squeezed implacably between their own desire for ever lower prices and ever better "deals" and the insatiable greed of the rich. The concentration of wealth in this country in the hands of fewer and fewer people continues to accelerate. By squeezing production oversees, Wal-Mart is helping to supply their own customers--millions of people who used to work for the companies WM has put out of business, living with relatives and squeaking by or on unemployment--who no longer have the luxury of shopping for any kind of quality and who are forced to come to WM.

It's a vicious spiral that is going to end up forcing this country into poverty and facism. Maybe not today. Maybe not in the next 10 years. But come back 50 or 75 years from now and take a look.

BBD

[Karin Kirk]

This quote is key for me . . .

<<<Wal-Mart has also lulled shoppers into ignoring the difference between the price of something and the cost. ..."We want clean air, clear water, good living conditions, the best health care in the world--yet we aren't willing to pay for anything manufactured under those restrictions.">>>


RIGHT ON! This is true for all sorts of things, like energy sources, health care, education, etc. We are only used to looking at this from the initial cost point of view, and we are always so pleased with ourselves when we score a "bargain."

I'm with you BBD, I never set foot in Wal-Mart and I am very happy to shop at local merchants and farmer's markets and pay a little more to support them.

[dirtdigger88]

I refuse to do work for walmart- they demand crazy payment schedules-

like- dirt you do the work today and we will pay you sometime next year sorta thing-

they will also hold up your payment forever- then ask you - what are you going to sue ME over this- good luck-

ever wonder why Walmarts look like crap- now you know- no one in their right mind would get sucked into their game

Jason

[CNY rider]

Dirt, you just perfectly summarized the way us Docs get paid (or not) by insurance companies. :butt:


I refuse to do work for walmart- they demand crazy payment schedules-

like- dirt you do the work today and we will pay you sometime next year sorta thing-

they will also hold up your payment forever- then ask you - what are you going to sue ME over this- good luck-

ever wonder why Walmarts look like crap- now you know- no one in their right mind would get sucked into their game

Jason

[dave thompson]

There is within WalMart a variety of management training courses. These courses are given to their employees who are, or are going to become, managers (dept. managers, asst. managers etc.) and part of what they are taught is not to trust vendors; if a vendor is friendly they must want something, etc. This is part of the WalMart cult of us VS. the world they preach (literally) to their employees everyday. I used to be a vendor in WalMart (no longer!) and have seen and heard the kool-aid meetings in the mornings.

[nick0137]

Probably not for me to comment from this side of the Atlantic (where Walmart own one of our supermarket operators, Asda, but haven't yet made an appearence in their own colours.

But what BBD says about what US consumers expect strikes a chord with me. I confess to being amazed whenever there are threads about purchases. Off topic threads about cars turn on how much of a margin over his cost price a dealer can expect, and everyone knows that the consumer knows the cost price (taking account of manufacturer incentives etc) - an English car buyer simply would not have that information. And on topic threads about bikes, components and servicing even turn on how much extra (or free) it's right for the consumer to ask for on top.

Now, on the up side that shows what an economically literate and empowered society US consumers have - they have good information and can make informed decisions as a result. And what is produced is pressure for product development and improvement (both in tems of reliability and function), which is all for the good.

But, a downside may be (I fear) that the cultural need for a good deal (or even the best deal) produces a constant pressure to push for the most for the cheapest. And what is produced has to be made in Taiwan or China or wherever is the next cheapest, "dont care about the environmental and human cost of production" place.

[atmo]

. . . this is exactly the reason I don't shop there.
<snipped>

Americans want everything for nothing.<cut>

BBD
do you limit this shopping habit to walmart, or is it
extended to any and all big box franchises that have
the buying power to squeeze prices and make it harder
for the local mom and pop hardware stores, dry cleaners,
pet food suppliers, book stores, etcetera, to survive and
mebbe drive them into an early retirement atmo?
signed,
curious in episcoville.

[Grant McLean]

Probably not for me to comment from this side of the Atlantic (where Walmart own one of our supermarket operators, Asda, but haven't yet made an appearence in their own colours.

But what BBD says about what US consumers expect strikes a chord with me. I confess to being amazed whenever there are threads about purchases. Off topic threads about cars turn on how much of a margin over his cost price a dealer can expect, and everyone knows that the consumer knows the cost price (taking account of manufacturer incentives etc) - an English car buyer simply would not have that information. And on topic threads about bikes, components and servicing even turn on how much extra (or free) it's right for the consumer to ask for on top.

Now, on the up side that shows what an economically literate and empowered society US consumers have - they have good information and can make informed decisions as a result. And what is produced is pressure for product development and improvement (both in tems of reliability and function), which is all for the good.

But, a downside may be (I fear) that the cultural need for a good deal (or even the best deal) produces a constant pressure to push for the most for the cheapest. And what is produced has to be made in Taiwan or China or wherever is the next cheapest, "dont care about the environmental and human cost of production" place.

Great post, Nick.

It got me thinking about a very blury area.

First, it makes sense that people want to minimize the cost of their purchases.
Everyone wants to stretch their dollar as far as possible. Why "overpay" for
goods or services, if you can do a little research and save some money. This
makes total sense to me, I'm a buyer for a retail store, so i'm used to pushing
for the best deal, and in product selection, it's a goal to provide the most
value for our cusomers hard earned money.

Then it get weird. Some people will buy anything on a "deal". Two sizes too
big? no problem, it's 60% off, they can't afford NOT to buy it. Pass on a "bargain"!?
How much wasted time and money is there looking for a deal? Do you drive around
in your car, looking for cheaper gas? How much is your time worth? Do you
spend 5 hours searching for a better price on a $100 item, when you make
that much per hour in your job?

It's an interesting balancing act. After many years in retail, i understand some
of the rules. Rule #1 is that people are crazy for a deal.

The walmart/costco paradox is that I believe it allows people to buy things
they don't even need. It seems that if you're looking to save money,
the first place to start is to evaluate your "needs". The environmental three
"R's" are REDUCE, reuse, recycle. If people thought first about buying less
than simply buying cheaper, I think they'd be further ahead. (in more than just
financial terms)

Obviously, this is not what people will do. The marketing of 'price discounter'
retailers is about as far as the average person goes. They see a "sale" sign,
and believe it must be good value, afterall, it's on "SALE" ! The marketing
of Walmart's 'everyday low prices' is a myth. Lots of studies have shown
that if you fill a basket at Walmart, it's not cheaper than shopping around.
But who really shops around? People believe Wallmart has the best deals,
and with that confidence in hand, they fill up their carts.

g

[nick0137]

g,

Mine is very much an outsider's view - outsider in the sense that I'm not in N America and outside also cos I'm no retailer or retail psychologist, I'm a barrister ffs.

And it's also a view that I am conscious may well be clouded by a (yes, Atmo, a very inconsistenly applied) "big is bad, small is good" bias. For those who don't know (and I guess that's everyone but me) the supermarket chain owned by Walmart - Asda - was originally Associated Dairies, which was (as its name suggests) an association of small scale English dairy companies (most of which had one dairy). And my grandfather was one of the managers of a founding dairy company, got some shares, passed them on, shares came to be in Asda the supermarket and are now (as a result of the acquisition) in Walmart. And I'd much prefer to be an Asda shareholder still.

But, we all know that big isn't bad. Big can be cheap and cheap can be what lots of people in society need. It's easy for the middle class to say, what the hell, it only costs £x, I can afford to pay that and not shop around. Those with lesser incomes cannot.

But big can be bad if the consumers let it be (or maybe even more pertinently, ask it to be).

[LegendRider]

I refuse to do work for walmart- they demand crazy payment schedules-

like- dirt you do the work today and we will pay you sometime next year sorta thing-

they will also hold up your payment forever- then ask you - what are you going to sue ME over this- good luck-

ever wonder why Walmarts look like crap- now you know- no one in their right mind would get sucked into their game

Jason

I have no experience either way, but the article says the following:

To a person, all those interviewed credit Wal-Mart with a fundamental integrity in its dealings that's unusual in the world of consumer goods, retailing, and groceries. Wal-Mart does not cheat suppliers, it keeps its word, it pays its bills briskly. "They are tough people but very honest; they treat you honestly," says Peter Campanella, who ran the business that sold Corning kitchenware products, both at Corning and then at World Kitchen. "It was a joke to do business with most of their competitors. A fiasco."

[bcm119]

If you really want to spend less, go second hand.

All the crap people buy at big box stores is available for pocket change every Saturday at local yard sales and thrift stores. Sure, you have to be choosy, but it pays off in a big way. Almost all of our furniture and kitchen stuff is second hand, and its way nicer and better quality than you'll find at any big box store.

For us, most "stuff" falls into 2 categories: new and really high quality from a small store, or second hand. Theres no need for mega-lo-mart chinese plastic crap.

[Grant McLean]

g,

But, we all know that big isn't bad. Big can be cheap and cheap can be what lots of people in society need. It's easy for the middle class to say, what the hell, it only costs £x, I can afford to pay that and not shop around. Those with lesser incomes cannot.

But big can be bad if the consumers let it be (or maybe even more pertinently, ask it to be).


great points.
It's too easy to point and blame the big bad box stores, because of course
they wouldn't be around if people didn't support them. Not to get too
political, but thinking about where the money goes from the things we
buy should cross people's minds more often. The problem for many is,
who of us wants to think about farm ownership when buying milk, or every time
they fill up the gas tank, think about where that money ends up?

g

[atmo]

great points.
It's too easy to point and blame the big bad box stores, because of course
they wouldn't be around if people didn't support them.<cut>
either would walmart atmo.

go figure.

what this thread needs is a walmart protagonist
who can explain away why walmart succeeds in
a climate in which many folks can't stand them
or don't want them in their town. who are these
customers? and if someone says well they're the
fat, uneducated hillbillies and welfare roll folks
i'm gonna puke.

[Kevan]

ooaaa!

Sometimes I question what our fighting for freedom is all about. I suppose I'm to assume the more generic inferences of what freedom offers, but my skepticism of current events make wonder if we're simply talking about the checkout aisle.

[Len J]

I ran a company that supplied Wal-Mart. They were approx 25% of our business.

My experience:

1.) They were true to their word...very ethical to deal with.
2.) They paid their bills promptly and did not "Nickel & dime" us.
3.) They were very easy to do business with from an administrative standpoint
4.) They understood how important it was for me to be profitible in order for them to be successful and worked with us to identify was to improve both our profitibilities.
5.) They respected us when we said no to their demands........
6.) #5 being said.....they were not afraid to find another supplier that could supply the same product, same quality at a total lower price.......but, it was up to us to demonstrate to them why our product, though more expensive on a per part basis, was actually cheaper to them over th life cycle.
7.) They recognize that it costs them to switch suppliers on anything other than a pure commodity.

I would do business with them in a heartbeat, as long as the following were true:

1.) My product was not a commodity
2.) I could meet their demand...which is hugh.
3.) I had the systems and processes in place ahead of time to insure flawless execution......I know of more people who have lost money and businesses because they couldn't execute with Wal-Mart.
4.) I hd my business set up so if they cut me off...I could instantly resize & remain in business.

Don't blame the drug, blame the user!

If they weren't providing what people wanted they would be out of business.

They are not the evil company people want to make them out to be.

Len

[LegendRider]

what this thread needs is a walmart protagonist
who can explain away why walmart succeeds in
a climate in which many folks can't stand them
or don't want them in their town. who are these
customers? and if someone says well they're the
fat, uneducated hillbillies and welfare roll folks
i'm gonna puke.

Remember the story about Pauline Kael, the New Yorker film critic, who said, "How did Nixon win??? I don't know anyone who voted for him!"

Well, I don't think you'll find many shoppers/supporters of Wal-Mart on the message board of a company that makes bikes that cost more than the per capita income of most of Africa...

[Kevan]

either would walmart atmo.

go figure.

what this thread needs is a walmart protagonist
who can explain away why walmart succeeds in
a climate in which many folks can't stand them
or don't want them in their town. who are these
customers? and if someone says well they're the
fat, uneducated hillbillies and welfare roll folks
i'm gonna puke.

It's the Joe and Jane Blows out there struggling to do the "American Dream" They're coping with a mortgage that could have bought a palace 30-40 years ago. Salaries haven't kept up with housing costs. Course, you might challenge why they need a 50" flat panel TV in their livingroom and I'd be at a loss to argue.

[J.Greene]

either would walmart atmo.

go figure.

what this thread needs is a walmart protagonist
who can explain away why walmart succeeds in
a climate in which many folks can't stand them
or don't want them in their town. who are these
customers? and if someone says well they're the
fat, uneducated hillbillies and welfare roll folks
i'm gonna puke.

In rural America and the lower income burbs Walmart offers everything from autocare to groceries at very low prices. These areas of Walmart strength simply had very little choice before. As far a small towns not wanting walmart there is truth to that. But no one will keep a walmart from being in the next town down the road. When your comparing prices for a gallon of milk you don't worry to much that the independent bookseller has closed it's doors.

the fat uneducated hillbillies on welfare like me shop at Dollar General.

JG

[dirtdigger88]

Len- I would agree with you - you nailed my reasons not to work with them


1.) My product was not a commodity- I sell "labor" there are folks willing working for less per hour than I pay my employees- Walmart of course will go to them

2.) I could meet their demand...which is hugh. For me their demand is low and outside of what I do- they want the cheapest service- I offer higher quailty- sorta like the Campy comparison earlier

3.) I had the systems and processes in place ahead of time to insure flawless execution......I know of more people who have lost money and businesses because they couldn't execute with Wal-Mart. I did not have the systems- WalMart wanted me to change my invoicing system to match theirs- which would have messed up my record keeping for everyone else- and they Walmart would have been less than .5% of my work

4.) I hd my business set up so if they cut me off...I could instantly resize & remain in business. see above

Len

I was a different kind of vendor to Walmart- they did not resell what I sold to them- Walmart would like to have used me because I can cover so many of their stores- but again we are just not a good fit for one another

great way of looking at the value of a customer though-

Jason

[atmo]

It's the Joe and Jane Blows out there struggling to do the "American Dream" They're coping with a mortgage that could have bought a palace 30-40 years ago. Salaries haven't kept up with housing costs. Course, you might challenge why they need a 50" flat panel TV in their livingroom and I'd be at a loss to argue.
that's what i always hear, but i never hear it in
the first person. obviously, the phenomenom can
be discussed academically and we all can stay
detached, but someone somewhere is keeping that
place alive and profitable, and it isn't me or you atmo.
would that person defend walmart as vigilantly as
others diss it?

[Len J]

Len- I would agree with you - you nailed my reasons not to work with them



I was a different kind of vendor to Walmart- they did not resell what I sold to them- Walmart would like to have used me because I can cover so many of their stores- but again we are just not a good fit for one another

great way of looking at the value of a customer though-

Jason

but if you go in with your eyes open......

Now you want to talk about a terrible customer that uses their leverage in ways I would never tolerate....let's talk Home Depot!

Len

[dirtdigger88]

my parents live in small town rual USA- in a town without a walmart

but there is talk about one moving in- the town is VERY divided

people do want the ease of shopping and the low prices- but with that (for this town) will come the eventual death of all the mom and pop stores that make that "small town" what it is-

the death of the small shops leads to the death of the money flowing through the town- you are left with a town that most people work for Walmart . . . so they can shop at Walmart-

Im not knocking Walmart for being good at what they do- I just think we are seeing another unforseen outcome of progress

enough for now- Ive gotta go spead some salt so all the holiday shoppers can keep moving :D

Jason

[LegendRider]

that's what i always hear, but i never hear it in
the first person. obviously, the phenomenom can
be discussed academically and we all can stay
detached, but someone somewhere is keeping that
place alive and profitable, and it isn't me or you atmo.
would that person defend walmart as vigilantly as
others diss it?

Here's first person for you - my family occassionally shops at Wal Mart. I'm ambivalent about it for a number of reasons, but, just like all their shoppers, it comes down to price. There is nothing pleasing about the shopping experience that's for sure - it's too big, crowded, noisy, and plain uncomfortable. One observation - the large Hispanic community in Atlanta relies on Wal Mart. I doubt these people have McMansions and 50" TVs...

The Wal Mart defenders do their talking with dollars imho.

[Len J]

my parents live in small town rual USA- in a town without a walmart

but there is talk about one moving in- the town is VERY divided

people do want the ease of shopping and the low prices- but with that (for this town) will come the eventual death of all the mom and pop stores that make that "small town" what it is-

the death of the small shops leads to the death of the money flowing through the town- you are left with a town that most people work for Walmart . . . so they can shop at Walmart-

Im not knocking Walmart for being good at what they do- I just think we are seeing another unforseen outcome of progress

enough for now- Ive gotta go spead some salt so all the holiday shoppers can keep moving :D

Jason

That is not true.......that is the great myth of Wal-Mart.

I live in a county of 50,000 people or so, We have a Wal Mart......when it came, yes SOME businesses couldn't compete and had to close, but many new niche businesses came into the area......In addition, less affluent members of the community had a place to stretch their dollars.....so they had more money to spend elsewhere.

The net effect was not negative economicially...........it was actually positive because people that used to leave the county to shop at a Wal-mart are now shopping locally.

It's not an either or proposition.

Len

[J.Greene]

someone somewhere is keeping that
place alive and profitable, and it isn't me or you atmo.
would that person defend walmart as vigilantly as
others diss it?

to most of those people this whole thing would be silly atmo.

BUT, and this is huge, here in FL Walmart has cut perscription drug prices by huge ammounts, even for a good number of popular name brand drugs. My elderly clients are becoming fans of Walmart. Drug prices are the #1 concern I hear from my elderly clients so it's a big deal.
JG

[Climb01742]

i wonder if it's possible to make a case for a "fair" price vs the cheapest price. cheapest prices always have hidden costs. for example, wal-mart uses a very high % of part-time employees to avoid paying healthcare costs. and fights paying overtime. it is part of their cost structure. would shoppers buy slightly more expensive products elsewhere if a wal-mart competitor explained the hidden costs wal-mart extracts from society? i ask this not to bash wal-mart but to wonder how many shoppers care (or can afford to care) how cheap prices happen?

[atmo]

to most of those people this whole thing would be silly atmo.

BUT, and this is huge, here in FL Walmart has cut perscription drug prices by huge ammounts, even for a good number of popular name brand drugs. My elderly clients are becoming fans of Walmart. Drug prices are the #1 concern I hear from my elderly clients so it's a big deal.
JG
silly or not silly -
could it be possible that walmart's good deals like
lower costs for drugs for folks that need them (as
well as other examples like this) would neutralize
or even outweigh some of the negativity that is
attached to them in threads like this?

by the way, i shop locally and wouldn't drive to a store
or a mall if i didn't have to. i pay more at the local market
and hardware store, and for all my routine needs, and
will go to walmarts and any other mall store only if i'm
on the road and the convenience factor looms large. i'd
rather not get in the car unless it's for a 'cross race or to
spend a weekend roomin' with jgreene at the battleground.
there are cheaper dates, but he's my go-to guy atmo.

[Len J]

i wonder if it's possible to make a case for a "fair" price vs the cheapest price. cheapest prices always have hidden costs. for example, wal-mart uses a very high % of part-time employees to avoid paying healthcare costs. and fights paying overtime. it is part of their cost structure. would shoppers buy slightly more expensive products elsewhere if a wal-mart competitor explained the hidden costs wal-mart extracts from society? i ask this not to bash wal-mart but to wonder how many shoppers care (or can afford to care) how cheap prices happen?


it's supply & demand....while a small percentage will pay a higher price, most will not.

People vote with their wallets.

Len

[Len J]

lament about Wal-Mart......are the people that can afford to shop elsewhere!

Unfortunatly, the majority shop at Wal-mart to make ends meet.......I have never heard a complaint about Wal-mart from a non-employee on the low side of the income scale.

Len

[SGP]

Here, Wal-Mart is trying to expand their current store to one of their superstores. It is a divisive issue, many feel that, while the one we have is ok, the new will be just too much store for the small town that we live in.

[Serpico]

I have no experience either way, but the article says the following:

To a person, all those interviewed credit Wal-Mart with a fundamental integrity in its dealings that's unusual in the world of consumer goods, retailing, and groceries. Wal-Mart does not cheat suppliers, it keeps its word, it pays its bills briskly. "They are tough people but very honest; they treat you honestly," says Peter Campanella, who ran the business that sold Corning kitchenware products, both at Corning and then at World Kitchen. "It was a joke to do business with most of their competitors. A fiasco."

those are large companies, the example Dirt gave was of Walmart hefting their weight around when dealing with local companies (ie "We'll pay you when we want")

[J.Greene]

silly or not silly -
could it be possible that walmart's good deals like
lower costs for drugs for folks that need them (as
well as other examples like this) would neutralize
or even outweigh some of the negativity that is
attached to them in threads like this?


It happens. I had a guy tell me the other day that the republicans should stand up to the drug companies the way walmart has.

on the flip side...walmart tried to come to Oviedo a few years ago. they even tried to bribe us by offering to pave about 5 miles of rail trail. The town said no. Walmart instead is building right over the town line and the last part of the trail is still not paved.

JG

[Climb01742]

len, you're almost certainly right but as a business owner, i know too painfully that lowering our prices eventually costs a human being something, somewhere. you can only wring so much cost out of a system through efficiency.

i wonder if america's thirst for cheap prices will only end, or mitigate, with some sort of economic disaster akin to past and future ecological disasters? for much of the past 120 years, america's industrial growth had a "free" ride dumping pollutants into the environment. cleaning up the industrial waste and enacting things like a "carbon tax" point out the true cost of doing business. cheap prices pollute society, if i may stretch a metaphor.

everything has a price. it's just a question of who pays it and when.

[atmo]

It happens. I had a guy tell me the other day that the republicans should stand up to the drug companies the way walmart has.

on the flip side...walmart tried to come to Oviedo a few years ago. they even tried to bribe us by offering to pave about 5 miles of rail trail. The town said no. Walmart instead is building right over the town line and the last part of the trail is still not paved.

JG
hyman roth always made money for his partners atmo.

[Grant McLean]

hyman roth always made money for his partners atmo.

sure, but like 1/2 the population in florida,
he'd be getting his drugs from Canada. :)

g

[manet]

on the flip side...walmart tried to come to Oviedo a few years ago. they even tried to bribe us by offering to pave about 5 miles of rail trail. The town said no. Walmart instead is building right over the town line and the last part of the trail is still not paved.

JG

something similar here in downtown JC _ the depot was denied one plot 'cause of zoning. said big box did some more research and voila! are now breaking ground at the holland tunnel _ literally between the inbound and outbound lanes AT the entry to the tunnel.

[sspielman]

sure, but like 1/2 the population in florida,
he'd be getting his drugs from Canada. :)

g

....sounds like a case for Big D*ck Pound.......

[atmo]

something similar here in downtown JC _ the depot was denied one plot 'cause of zoning. said big box did some more research and voila! are now are breaking ground at the holland tunnel _ literally between the inbound and outbound lanes AT the entry to the tunnel.
i like the depot and have no issues trotting down there
for all the cabinets and shet that my hardware store
doesn't sell. my wife aka the lovely deb and i bought
all our wood flooring there, took the tutorial that they
offer, rented the tools, and had a do-it-ourselves weekend
atmo. disclaimer: we went there at night so no one would
see us.

[LegendRider]

those are large companies, the example Dirt gave was of Walmart hefting their weight around when dealing with local companies (ie "We'll pay you when we want")

Do you have evidence of that? Are you saying that Wal Mart pays their large suppliers in a timely fashion and small ones in a less-than-timely fashion?

[sspielman]

To contain our outrage for just a little while... I am a free market kind of guy....but I like to ensure that the markets actually are free....What is most disturbing to me is that our antitrust laws and regulations basically go unenforced. As a result, large retailers such as WM and the "category killers" such as Home Depot and Staples, etc. are free to ply their trade via their chosen methods of predatory capitalism....It's a race to the bottom. At the other end of the scale, suppliers of niche market products often insist upon a minimum selling price. If the retailer discounts the items, he will be cut off from his supply....sound familiar? It is a restraint of trade that I believe would be found to be illegal if tried.....

[Grant McLean]

Are you saying that Wal Mart pays their large suppliers in a timely fashion and small ones in a less-than-timely fashion?

LegendRider is correct to question that premise.

I can only imagine that Walmart pays every invoice on the date of the
negotiated terms. (That's not too hard, when you set the terms.)

Many small suppliers would expect to be paid in 30 days, but that's not
going to happen with a big company. The purchase order won't get placed
with the supplier without 90 days, 120 days, even 180 days terms.

So sure, walmart 'pays on time'. Unless you expect payment in 30 days,
in which case, you're likely going to feel it's 60 days "late". But by shipping
to walmart, you're agreeing to their conditions on their purchase order, so
you can't complain after the deal is done.

g

[atmo]

It is a restraint of trade that I believe would be found to be illegal if tried.....
we're trying it here atmo!

[bcm119]

lament about Wal-Mart......are the people that can afford to shop elsewhere!

Unfortunatly, the majority shop at Wal-mart to make ends meet.......I have never heard a complaint about Wal-mart from a non-employee on the low side of the income scale.

Len
I don't believe in this idea that some people can't afford not to shop at walmart. (not saying that was your point, but it touches on the subject). Walmart provides one option of making ends meet for those folks...and its the easy option that promotes our throw-away lifestyle. If walmart didn't exist, those same low-income poeple would be doing things differently- buying second-hand, being creative about food and household items. Its possible to live cheaply without walmart.

[Climb01742]

I am a free market kind of guy

i might suggest fair market vs free. much like fair trade vs free trade. there are certainly debates about what constitutes "fair" but those seem like debates worth having.

[LegendRider]

LegendRider is correct to question that premise.

I can only imagine that Walmart pays every invoice on the date of the
negotiated terms. (That's not too hard, when you set the terms.)

Many small suppliers would expect to be paid in 30 days, but that's not
going to happen with a big company. The purchase order won't get placed
with the supplier without 90 days, 120 days, even 180 days terms.

So sure, walmart 'pays on time'. Unless you expect payment in 30 days,
in which case, you're likely going to feel it's 60 days "late". But by shipping
to walmart, you're agreeing to their conditions on their purchase order, so
you can't complain after the deal is done.

g

Plus, most AP systems follow specific rules that don't differentiate between the size of the supplier.

[sspielman]

i might suggest fair market vs free. much like fair trade vs free trade. there are certainly debates about what constitutes "fair" but those seem like debates worth having.

Agreed Ishould qualify the statement by saying that for trade to be free it must first also be fair......

[sspielman]

we're trying it here atmo!

Cool...let's find them guilty and then make them pay a huge punitive fine-to us- for damages.....Wow...this must be what it is like to be a member of congress!

[atmo]

Cool...let's find them guilty and then make them pay a huge punitive fine-to us- for damages.....Wow...this must be what it is like to be a member of congress!

i came to this thread late, at a time
when it looked as though they were
being already found guilty (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=281864&postcount=12) atmo!!

[Ozz]

Plus, most AP systems follow specific rules that don't differentiate between the size of the supplier.
but they do differentiate between types of payments...check vs wire vs ACH/EDI. I suspect that most larger suppliers can accept electronic payments without problem, whereas smaller suppliers may only be less sophisticated.

Although, I would think Wal-Mart would tell the smaller supplier "this is how we pay our suppliers, and sorting out the EDI 820 / Remittance Advice is your problem"...or something like that.

Interesting read....feels a lot like "global warming".

[BumbleBeeDave]

len, you're almost certainly right but as a business owner, i know too painfully that lowering our prices eventually costs a human being something, somewhere. you can only wring so much cost out of a system through efficiency.

i wonder if america's thirst for cheap prices will only end, or mitigate, with some sort of economic disaster akin to past and future ecological disasters? for much of the past 120 years, america's industrial growth had a "free" ride dumping pollutants into the environment. cleaning up the industrial waste and enacting things like a "carbon tax" point out the true cost of doing business. cheap prices pollute society, if i may stretch a metaphor.

everything has a price. it's just a question of who pays it and when.

As usual, Climb has spoken wisely--if only becausee he agrees with me! :rolleyes:

The ultimate price of the atmosphere that companies like WM help foster will not be paid tomorrow, next year, or even in 10 years. But it will be evident 50 or 75 years from now when the economic cushion of wealth that was built up by our parents in the aftermath of WW2 has been exhausted. It will have been spent by all the companies and Americans who are borrowing to beat the band and maxing out every credit card and draining dry their home equity and their inheritances to finance their feelings of entitlement today to 50" TV's, bass boats, vacation homes, gas guzzling SUV's, and just about any other extravagant toy you can think of--yes, even bicycles.

Live for today. Worry about the price tomorrow. Individuals do it, but I think we as a society are also doing it through heedless pursuit of low prices rather than fair prices. There is a tremendous transfer of wealth out of America to countries like China going on, and the trend is accelerating. Even states are selling whatever they can to pay the bills--several are effectively selling their state toll roads to private entities which include foreign companies. Yeah, you heard it right--they are selling their public highways.

The true ultimate price for this will eventually be a decline in the standard of living here and our effectiveness in the world because this country will have sold itself to other countries just to pay our ongoing societal bills. It's exactly the kind of thing people don't trouble themselves with because they won't be around in 75 years and therefore can't be held accountable. You won't hear any politicians or citizens admitting they are selling their children's or their country's futures to finance their own luxury today, but in effect that's what they're doing . . . and it's what company's like WM are doing now in pursuit of short term profits. Of course they claim they are in pursuit of the lowest prices for their customers, but they have stockholders and in reality they are trying to maximize profits--the future of our country and our culture be damned.

BBD

[J.Greene]

hyman roth always made money for his partners atmo.

I've always admired Arnold Rothstein.

JG

[LegendRider]

but they do differentiate between types of payments...check vs wire vs ACH/EDI. I suspect that most larger suppliers can accept electronic payments without problem, whereas smaller suppliers may only be less sophisticated.

Although, I would think Wal-Mart would tell the smaller supplier "this is how we pay our suppliers, and sorting out the EDI 820 / Remittance Advice is your problem"...or something like that.

Interesting read....feels a lot like "global warming".

They may very well tell small suppliers "you will accept payment this way." My small company was told that by the government. But, the point is, I highly doubt they aim to pay small suppliers in a tardy fashion. They have rules, they follow them and it's "take it or leave it."

[vaxn8r]

I don't believe in this idea that some people can't afford not to shop at walmart. (not saying that was your point, but it touches on the subject). Walmart provides one option of making ends meet for those folks...and its the easy option that promotes our throw-away lifestyle. If walmart didn't exist, those same low-income poeple would be doing things differently- buying second-hand, being creative about food and household items. Its possible to live cheaply without walmart.

ATMO your's is not the mindset of most people. Unfortunately for them.

[vaxn8r]

It happens. I had a guy tell me the other day that the republicans should stand up to the drug companies the way walmart has...

JG
Walmart hasn't stood up to the big drug companies. They'll take a tiny loss on a bunch of cheap drugs and, hopefully get access to a bunch more name brand Rx's. What I'm seeing here in town is that other pharmacies are following suit. So...the consumer wins, maybe it squeezes somebody else out or they may have to offer fewer services in the long run. It's a big game of chicken. Who's gonna flinch first.

[sspielman]

A friend of mine works for the American office of a highly regarded manufacturer of product that I will not name (to protect the innocent). A subsidiary of WM (they have some of those, you know) contacted them wishing to stock some of their product in their specialty stores and to list them in their catalog. It was a large amount of product, so they signed on for the deal. WM said that they wanted the supplier to hold the items at their warehouse until they were needed, but issued a downpayment as per the terms. In any event, the season progressed, and they never requested ANY product to be shipped...nor did they list it in their catalog. At the end of the season, they issued a BILL to the supplier for a refund, PLUS A 20% RETURN FEE as per the contract....FOR MERCHANDISE THEY NEVER RECEIVED!!!!

[Kevan]

i like the depot and have no issues trotting down there
for all the cabinets and shet that my hardware store
doesn't sell. my wife aka the lovely deb and i bought
all our wood flooring there, took the tutorial that they
offer, rented the tools, and had a do-it-ourselves weekend
atmo. disclaimer: we went there at night so no one would
see us.

They complain about poor housing starts, but I suspect they were sad (disappointed?) about the lack of hurricanes too. Meanwhile, on the other side of the fence, my guess is insurance companies have rebuttoned their top bottons and straightened their ties. Wild stuff.

[dirtdigger88]

Let me correct my stance in an easy to read format

I think Walmart is the best at what they do-

I (dirt) chose not to shop there- but mrs dirt does- so dirt's money is still going there

Walmart spelled out their term - I decided that I did not like them- so I ended the relationship-

free market is fun- eh?

Jason

[manet]

i like the depot and have no issues trotting down there
for all the cabinets and shet that my hardware store
doesn't sell. my wife aka the lovely deb and i bought
all our wood flooring there, took the tutorial that they
offer, rented the tools, and had a do-it-ourselves weekend
atmo. disclaimer: we went there at night so no one would
see us.

dude i hear you in stereo. the depot knows manet. my shack is cobbled together wid their shiny trinkets.

we live in a big, effin' huge world of consumerin'. NO shop sells all that one's architect specs _ the laminated joists, barn door hardware, pivot hinges, etc... arrived via other outlets: local, small, large, mom+pop, mom+mom, pop+pop.

let's not forget delivery in the city is a priority. local yards deliver the goods with just a phone call, usually the next day.

aesthetically et architecturally (interior+exterior) them big box stores hurt me, really, they are catalysts for my migraines. honest.

[J.Greene]

Walmart hasn't stood up to the big drug companies. They'll take a tiny loss on a bunch of cheap drugs and, hopefully get access to a bunch more name brand Rx's. What I'm seeing here in town is that other pharmacies are following suit. So...the consumer wins, maybe it squeezes somebody else out or they may have to offer fewer services in the long run. It's a big game of chicken. Who's gonna flinch first.


dude... tell that to my client with the double lung transplant. It's taking some serious stuff to keep his new lungs from being rejected. That was the point of atmo's query, some people will defend the monster. That someone might recognize that they win in all this.

JG

[Climb01742]

big boxes aren't inherently bad. if they squeeze inefficiencies out of the system, cool. but it's when they squeeze costs out of human beings that i think they cross a line. for me, how wal-mart treats their employees goes way over a line.

[manet]

ammo's cheap too

[manet]

... just down the aisle from the common-sense thongs.

[Climb01742]

... just down the aisle from the common-sense thongs.

thongs should only come in sizes small and medium. the world don't need no XXXXL thongs, imho. just saying.

[oracle]

i might suggest fair market vs free. much like fair trade vs free trade. there are certainly debates about what constitutes "fair" but those seem like debates worth having.


i very much agree

[J.Greene]

thongs should only come in sizes small and medium. the world don't need no XXXXL thongs, imho. just saying.

I very much agree

JG

[Serpico]

Do you have evidence of that? Are you saying that Wal Mart pays their large suppliers in a timely fashion and small ones in a less-than-timely fashion?

what?

I have no idea whatsoever, I'm simply pointing out the fact that dirt was talking about his experience, as a local business that was dealing with walmart about providing a service, and you posted a quote about some national sales manager for corningware (which is a product they sell through walmart)

it's not the same thing

[Serpico]

thongs should only come in sizes small and medium. the world don't need no XXXXL thongs, imho. just saying.
.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=10641&stc=1

[keno]

and I occasionally shop at Wal-Mart. Cat food is the big draw for me, but while there, I will buy orange juice, windshield wiper blades, Excedrin, and once in a while some smack. I suppose that I could shop elsewhere, but it's convenient and their help treat me at least as well as the help at other places I might shop. I've asked several of the employees I run into there how they like working there, and haven't gotten a negative response yet. When some items have come up with a wrong price at checkout, they have always honored the mistaken price without question. They look to me like every other retailer I do business with, certainly in no case worse.

Do any of you Wal-Mart haters mourn the loss of all of those automobile manufacturers put out of business by the big three, which are being put out of business or consumed by companies far east? Life goes on, blah.

Quote of the week from the John Unitas biography I'm reading by his mother: "Where does it say you're supposed to be happy?"

keno, who could afford much more but knows what he saves can be spent elsewhere

[atmo]

and I occasionally shop at Wal-Mart. <cut>

me too.

back to original point -
if i needed a shetload of pickles from vlasic
and i was aware of the deal that walmart
offers on them, i would buy them without
guilt or fear that i was bringing down the
western world as we know it atmo.

[LegendRider]

I refuse to do work for walmart- they demand crazy payment schedules-

like- dirt you do the work today and we will pay you sometime next year sorta thing-

they will also hold up your payment forever- then ask you - what are you going to sue ME over this- good luck-

ever wonder why Walmarts look like crap- now you know- no one in their right mind would get sucked into their game

Jason

Serpico - this was the original statement. I was simply pointing out the article said exactly the opposite - i.e., Wal Mart pays in a timely fashion. I have no idea which is true, but AP systems don't differentiate between products and services. Wal Mart undoubtedly has very specific rules about payment - to some they may be quick and to others they may be slow. But, I'm quite sure they don't intentional "discriminate" against small vendors.

[Big Dan]

:cool:

[Serpico]

you summer in the hamptons = you drive a gremlin

[Len J]

Dave, but this is laughable in the sense that what you are accusing the Chinese of is exactly what built this great economy.

It's esay to lambast Wal-Mart until the only way you can feed your family is because of the price of staples at places like Wal-Mart....believe me, I wish there was a Wal-Mart when I was growing up.....we might have eaten better.

Wal-Mart is a result....and not the devil people make them out to be. If people didn't buy from them, they wouldn't be persuing the business model they are.

Len

[Len J]

I don't believe in this idea that some people can't afford not to shop at walmart. (not saying that was your point, but it touches on the subject). Walmart provides one option of making ends meet for those folks...and its the easy option that promotes our throw-away lifestyle. If walmart didn't exist, those same low-income poeple would be doing things differently- buying second-hand, being creative about food and household items. Its possible to live cheaply without walmart.

How can you not believe it? Go to the blue color and lower economic neigborhoods in your area and ask that single mother how sh feed her kids on $30,000/year.

It's easy to make judgements about what other people should do.......I've grown up in abject poverty and I've seen and lived it.

Len

[Len J]

i might suggest fair market vs free. much like fair trade vs free trade. there are certainly debates about what constitutes "fair" but those seem like debates worth having.

A company like Wal Mart pays what the market will bear....just like every other company in America.......Workers can vote with their feet.....they choose not to.

Locally a person can work at McDonalds and get less hourly pay but more benefits or work for Wal Mart with a better hourly rate but more expensive benefits..........why is that unfair?

If they couldn't get enough employees, they would have to raise their offer.........Do you suggest we legislate them because they have been too successful?

Len

[JohnS]

I've asked several of the employees I run into there how they like working there, and haven't gotten a negative response yet. When some items have come up with a wrong price at checkout, they have always honored the mistaken price without question.

1. Have you ever heard of "mystery shoppers"? The wrong answer to your question could get them fired.
2. Most states have laws stating that the lower price must be honored. We do it all the time.

[manet]

1. Have you ever heard of "mystery shoppers"? The wrong answer to your question could get them fired.
2. Most states have laws stating that the lower price must be honored. We do it all the time.

secret shopper

[obtuse]

walmart sucks. it's dirty. its staffed by idiots. it perversly makes the shopping experience so horrid, and the consumer good so unappealing, tacky and cheap that it masquerades as necessity. hence, you go in there for the 12$ eighty pound bag of dog food, and those plastic lawn chairs for 5$s each suddenly scream at you that if they're that cheap and there are that many of them you'll probably starve if you don't buy'em.

walmart takes your brain away, it takes your soul away.

shop at target.

obtuse

[bcm119]

How can you not believe it? Go to the blue color and lower economic neigborhoods in your area and ask that single mother how sh feed her kids on $30,000/year.

It's easy to make judgements about what other people should do.......I've grown up in abject poverty and I've seen and lived it.

Len
But what is the price that single mother pays to save a few $ on groceries? Is she making every choice she possibly can to live cheaper, or is she saving money at walmart and spending the savings on non-necessities? Is she buying the same food she would buy elsewhere, or buying lower-quality food? Will that affect her healthcare bills later? Has walmart also helped the community she lives in-- has it affected her life in any other way? How has walmart affected the lives of everyone else to exist in her town and provide such low prices? Thats certainly up for debate.

For another perspective on walmart's relationship to poverty, read this paper (http://cecd.aers.psu.edu/pubs/Walmartbrief.htm), theres a link to the whole paper at the bottom.

[Len J]

But what is the price that single mother pays to save a few $ on groceries? Is she making every choice she possibly can to live cheaper, or is she saving money at walmart and spending the savings on non-necessities? Is she buying the same food she would buy elsewhere, or buying lower-quality food? Will that affect her healthcare bills later? Has walmart also helped the community she lives in-- has it affected her life in any other way? How has walmart affected the lives of everyone else to exist in her town and provide such low prices? Thats certainly up for debate.

For another perspective on walmart's relationship to poverty, read this paper (http://cecd.aers.psu.edu/pubs/Walmartbrief.htm), theres a link to the whole paper at the bottom.

Walk a mile in her shoes.

Len

[oracle]

the future? ....... (http://www.bicycleretailer.com/bicycleretailer/reports_analysis/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002689148)

[Karin Kirk]

LenJ and bcm, I think you are both right. The ability to shop cheaply and easily at Wal-Mart may be helpful for people who are struggling to survive economically. I don't think we should be expecting those folks to be buying fair trade products and considering the big picture of global economics when they are only trying to get by.

But it's not the poverty-line folks who have made Wal-Mart the empire that it is. It's the rest of us who drop big bucks there that fuel the fire.

[Len J]

LenJ and bcm, I think you are both right. The ability to shop cheaply and easily at Wal-Mart may be helpful for people who are struggling to survive economically. I don't think we should be expecting those folks to be buying fair trade products and considering the big picture of global economics when they are only trying to get by.

But it's not the poverty-line folks who have made Wal-Mart the empire that it is. It's the rest of us who drop big bucks there that fuel the fire.

Karin:

Wal-Marts target market are those below the average wage in this country. I would bet that most people on that side of the economic divide are shopping there in order to make ends meet.........be it having a little to put away for a vacation, retirement or college for their kids. Most people are not concerned with the big picture of global economics and are simply struggling to get by.

My responses, as I've thought about them, have been a reaction to this "holier than thou" attitude that makes decisions about what economicaly disadvantaged people should be doing with their money.

Most people, in my experience, are just trying to eke out the best life they can for them and their families on a day to day basis......Wal-Mart, like it or not, makes that a little easier. Those of us that have been blessed with the economic resources to allow us to not need to shop there to get by should recognize that we are the lucky ones.......& the minority in this country. (Only 10% of taxpayers in the US in 2004 had AGI's above $100,000 with the top 25% having AGI above $60,000. Think about that.....75% of the taxpayers in this country have Adj Gross taxable incomes below $60,000.....could you raise a family on that?)

I don't begrudge anyone who goes to Wal-Mart to save some money........

Len

[atmo]

I don't begrudge anyone who goes to Wal-Mart to save some money........

Len


why pay more for pickles atmo?

[Len J]

why pay more for pickles atmo?

...or medicine
....or staples
.....or kids clothes
......or anything else.

Len

[atmo]

i say we take this over to the cool kids lunch table (http://www.retailworker.com/forum/210) atmo.

[keno]

Now I understand what hasn't been made clear in this and the other Walmart thread. http://www.npdinsights.com/archives/april2005/cover_story.html

keno

[JohnS]

Karin:


(Only 10% of taxpayers in the US in 2004 had AGI's above $100,000 with the top 25% having AGI above $60,000. Think about that.....75% of the taxpayers in this country have Adj Gross taxable incomes below $60,000.....could you raise a family on that?)

I don't begrudge anyone who goes to Wal-Mart to save some money........

Len
Geez, I've never made anywhere near $60k in my life and I still refuse to shop at Wallyworld. I must be the po' boy around here. :confused:

[Karin Kirk]

Len J, I'm agreeing with you.

It's not fair to be judgemental or holier-than-anyone toward people who are just scraping by. I was agreeing with that and also saying that those of us who have the luxury to shop elsewhere and take into consideration fair trade, human rights, employee health care, and organic farming should do so if we want to contribute our dollars to those efforts.

I was just lamenting that plenty of people who shop at Wal-mart DO have the means to shop elsewhere and to support a "better" (in my view) version of capitalism. And I wish that more of those folks would get it.


Make sense?

[Len J]

I was just lamenting that plenty of people who shop at Wal-mart DO have the means to shop elsewhere and to support a "better" (in my view) version of capitalism. And I wish that more of those folks would get it.


Make sense?

sorry for the misunderstanding.

When 50% of the taxpayers in the US have a AGI of less than $30,000, it's easy to understand why Wal Mart is successful.

I agree with your sentiments BTW about more people getting it......maybe it'sjust one at a time.

Len

[Climb01742]

wal-mart isn't the only low-cost retailer. we go to costco. as far as i know, costco doesn't have the dismal record wal-mart does. i don't think anyone, and not me fer sure, was arguing that it's wal-mart or neiman-marcus. i'd make the distinction between bare-knuckle, barroom-brawl capitalism and capitalism with 12-ounce gloves. costco seems like 12-ounce gloves. wal-mart is bare-knuckles...with the american society getting the bloody nose. but that's just one guy's opinion.

[Len J]

is that W/M is the 800 lb gorilla that gets all the pub....Costco is small enough to stay under the radar screen.

W/M has become the poster child for capitalism run amok......they are the first one anyone thinks of.

Trust me, Costco couldn't compete with W/M without some of the same tactics......only difference is economy of scale.

Len

[dave thompson]

is that W/M is the 800 lb gorilla that gets all the pub....Costco is small enough to stay under the radar screen.

W/M has become the poster child for capitalism run amok......they are the first one anyone thinks of.

Trust me, Costco couldn't compete with W/M without some of the same tactics......only difference is economy of scale.

Len
One of the important differences between WalMart and Costco is that Costco pays their employees a lot more money than WalMart does, all up and down the line.

[Richard]

Personally, I don't think the issue is whether the consumer is making the best choice when they shop at Walmart. A more fundamental issue is whether Walmart offers value to the community as a whole. If your frame of reference is defined by the cost of goods, then they offer (perhaps) more for less. If your frame of reference is the "common wealth" of the community, then they are a net drag -- historically, opening a Walmart in a community results in a net loss of jobs and a net decline in incomes.

[Birddog]

A lot of the WalMart bashing has it's roots in the Unions. They hate WM, and they spare no opportunity to get in their jabs. They also cough up a fair amount of $$ for same. With all the people screaming about the number of PT WalMart associates and their lack of access to a health care plan, there are tens of thousands who are FT assoc. who do have access. Is their glass half full or is it half empty? Perhaps WM could just jump in and offer a super health care plan for it's employees, then a few years down the road run begging to the Federal Gov't for help like the Automakers are right now. The UC auto industry is a great example of what happens when the unions ask for too much and the co's capitulate and just let the predictable problems fall in the laps of the next generation of mgr.s. Just watch, taxpayers will be bailing out the US auto Industry's pension and health care plans real soon. I read/heard somewhere, that GM's healthcare and retirement obligations qualify it as one of the largest welfare programs in the world, if that's true, it will be very expensive.

If you think WM is evil, hang out for awhile at a convenience store near some apartment complexes, and watch all the people come in and buy $5 gas, $5 worth of cigarettes, $5 beer or soda, and a couple Lottery Tickets to get them out of the rut! Now that's depressing.

Birddog

[Karin Kirk]

sorry for the misunderstanding.

When 50% of the taxpayers in the US have a AGI of less than $30,000, it's easy to understand why Wal Mart is successful.

I agree with your sentiments BTW about more people getting it......maybe it'sjust one at a time.

Len

All is well. Thanks.

Yes, it is easy to see why the Wal-Mart strategy works.

As for Costco, Dave Thompson is correct about employee pay. Costco has a policy that the CEO can't make more than 15 times (I think) than the average Joe on the floor. So that results in the payroll being distributed in a manner that favors the average Joe, which I appreciate.

What I notice at Costco is that the employees are bright-eyed and well-spoken. I've been seeing the same employees there since the store opened (7 years ago). PLUS, I spied a fooseball table in the employee break room. How cool is that?

[bcm119]

Geez, I've never made anywhere near $60k in my life and I still refuse to shop at Wallyworld. I must be the po' boy around here. :confused:
Po'boy #2 here I guess.

LenJ, I'm not being holier than thou, maybe it came across that way, but if you knew me you'd laugh at that statement.

I'm not blaming the struggling folks who shop there. I'm blaming Walmart for providing a cheap, low quality, socially irresponsible option that they know the low income folks can't resist, and in doing so they are driving the throw-away lifestyle- the disposable culture that on some level contributes to poverty. I'm pointing out that while Walmart provides lower prices on many necessities, there is much more to the equation than that, and the net result -as Richard eloquently points out- is a loss for a low income community. Read the study I cited earlier. Again, I'm not blaming these folks for falling into the Walmart mindset, but I'm saying that from an analytical standpoint, its in their collective best interest not to shop there. I think I'm just coming at this from an "academic" standpoint, while you're seeing it from a personal level.

Anyway, I respect your opinion Len... lets just agree to disagree.

[Climb01742]

as an alternative, look at southwest airlines. they are the low-cost airline, yet they treat their people very well. herb kelleher has a pretty cool philosophy: http://www.babsoninsight.com/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/793

[Birddog]

I'm blaming Walmart for providing a cheap, low quality, socially irresponsible option that they know the low income folks can't resist, and in doing so they are driving the throw-away lifestyle- the disposable culture that on some level contributes to poverty.

Which facet of the WalMart business model are you referring to here? Is it the fact that they sell ammunition, diposable diapers, or Country Western music? Perhaps all three?

Birddog

[fiamme red]

According to Jim Cramer, Wal-mart isn't doing so well right now, after all:

http://nymag.com/news/businessfinance/bottomline/24394/index.html

[dave thompson]

According to Jim Cramer, Wal-mart isn't doing so well right now, after all:

http://nymag.com/news/businessfinance/bottomline/24394/index.html
Great article, and I think the key is in this paragraph: "And it wouldn’t hurt if Wal-Mart would create, if not a Starbucks pro-labor feel, at least something that makes shoppers feel that it’s not a global retailing bully and its workers aren’t all desperate retired folks." (my bold and underline)

The central theme of this whole thread seems to be that WalMart, rightly or wrongly, is a 'global retailing bully'. I think if it didn't have that reputation it would be much more warmly received in folks minds. Starbucks is a huge force in its market, yet it has done a superlative job (whether or not you like their coffee) of winning the hearts and minds of outsiders viewpoints of the corporation.

[keno]

what responses those among you who are anti-Walmart, for whatever reason, and have investments individually, in an IRA, however, give to the following questions.

Have you ever inspected the portfolios of any mutual funds you own, whether individually, through an IRA, etc., with your values in mind?

If you now take a look and find Walmart is owned by you through a mutual fund, will you remove the fund from your portfolio if you have the right to do it?

Do you put other companies you might buy stock in, whether directly or through a mutual fund, to the same tests as you do Walmart, or just those prominent in the press?

I can respect anyone's views, even if my own differ, if they not only talk the talk but also walk the walk. In this case I believe that just not shopping at a Walmart does not meet the litmus test. I am willing to bet that many of you own Walmart and don't even know it.

If you like, give me any fund symbols you own, and I'll do the research on whether Walmart is in the portfolio. PM, keno@blast.net, in this thread.

keno

[Climb01742]

According to Jim Cramer, Wal-mart isn't doing so well right now, after all:

http://nymag.com/news/businessfinance/bottomline/24394/index.html

wow. that article made my day. thanks. :D

[JohnS]

what responses those among you who are anti-Walmart, for whatever reason, and have investments individually, in an IRA, however, give to the following questions.

Have you ever inspected the portfolios of any mutual funds you own, whether individually, through an IRA, etc., with your values in mind?

If you now take a look and find Walmart is owned by you through a mutual fund, will you remove the fund from your portfolio if you have the right to do it?

Do you put other companies you might buy stock in, whether directly or through a mutual fund, to the same tests as you do Walmart, or just those prominent in the press?

I can respect anyone's views, even if my own differ, if they not only talk the talk but also walk the walk. In this case I believe that just not shopping at a Walmart does not meet the litmus test. I am willing to bet that many of you own Walmart and don't even know it.

If you like, give me any fund symbols you own, and I'll do the research on whether Walmart is in the portfolio. PM, keno@blast.net, in this thread.

keno
Well, seeing as the core of many portfolios is an S&P 500 Index Fund, that's kinda hard to do.

[JonnyComeLately]

To contain our outrage for just a little while... I am a free market kind of guy....but I like to ensure that the markets actually are free....What is most disturbing to me is that our antitrust laws and regulations basically go unenforced. As a result, large retailers such as WM and the "category killers" such as Home Depot and Staples, etc. are free to ply their trade via their chosen methods of predatory capitalism....It's a race to the bottom. At the other end of the scale, suppliers of niche market products often insist upon a minimum selling price. If the retailer discounts the items, he will be cut off from his supply....sound familiar? It is a restraint of trade that I believe would be found to be illegal if tried.....

Courts have determined that manufacturers may legally insist on a minimum selling price for their goods. They are not allowed to reach an agreement with the retailer on precisely what the price of the goods to the consumer will be, but they are allowed to "suggest" the retail price, and allowed to enforce their suggestions by cutting off the retailer if the retailer sells the goods at below that price. The reason why is that courts have recognized that the price at which the good is sold to the consumer is an important part of the identity of the manufacturer's product, and that the manufacturer ought to be able to maintain that identity if the manufacturer wishes. A Louis Vuitton handbag is in high demand precisely because it costs $1200. If LV retailers were allowed to sell the (real) handbags for $80, they would lose their snob appeal, and Louis Vuitton would no longer be Louis Vuitton.

As for Wal Mart, the antitrust laws were designed principally to protect consumer welfare, not suppliers. Further, the the law defines consumer welfare as low prices, reasoning that consumers should have the right to choose whether to pay slightly higher prices if they want to protect American jobs or the environment, or rather simply realize the short term savings on a $2.97 jar of pickles. If there were signs that Wal Mart was keeping prices artificially low in order to drive its competitors out of business, and then intended to take monopoly profits once its competitors had exited the market, then antitrust regulators would take a dimmer view of Wal Mart's business practices. The reason why, though, is not so much because of the suppliers hurt by this predatory pricing (though that is a factor), but rather because of the high monopoly prices consumers would have to pay in the end. As it is, however, consumers are benefitting from Wal Mart's pricing practices, at least under the law's definition of consumer welfare. For that reason, I don't think we should expect any serious antitrust challenges to Wal Mart's business model anytime soon.

The example of the Louis Vuitton handbag is one of the relatively few areas in the law where the courts have come out on the side of manufacturers, rather than consumers. I believe this is because not to do so would ultimately change the product itself, and that is an area the courts have decided the manufacturer ought to be able to control.

All of this is not to say I'm defending Wal Mart. I'm actually as dismayed as many of the posters over the effects if their pricing practices on the nation's economy. I'm just saying that what they do does not violate the antitrust laws.

[Richard]

Keno's post is an example of a particularly insideous way to cut off debate by attacking the man, eh. Kind of like "how can you argue against eating meat when I see you wear leather shoes?" Well, it is not part of the debate as to whether I or anyone else may hold some stock through a vast mutual fund (I have no idea) and it is immaterial to Wal Mart's business practices or the impact that they have on a community.

[Len J]

I read the study you pointed to and I believe his conclusions are not supportable.

Let's accept for a minute that his study does document that the rate of poverty improvement is slower in Wal_mart communties than not.......(i don't want to get into a statistical methodology debate here). Where I have a problem with his conclusions is that each and every one of his "guesses" as to why this is so paint W/M negativly....(The fact that all of his suppositions lean this way screams bias to me).......Nowhere does he even consider that there could be another reason.....for instance, maybe there are more poorer people moving into communities that have a place like W/M where they can afford to shop!

Look, I'm not saying that I agree with all of their business practices.......but I am saying that they are not the devil either.

I respect your opinion too...I think it might be a matter of degree.

Len

[bcm119]

Keno- I don't have any wmt holdings in my meager investments, but I'm not sure that is the point. If you feel strongly about something you make changes where you can. For most of us, that means not giving them our retail business. Thats a significant action we're taking, and if enough people do this, investor disinterest will follow. Not shopping at walmart is up to us; not investing in walmart is up to the fund managers.

[saab2000]

Po'boy #2 here I guess.



Po'boy #3 here. No $60K in this house. No prob in general 'cept when rent becomes a struggle.

Anyway, life is full of choices. I have not read the whole thread here so I am prolly outta line. I don't shop at Wal-Mart. I don't want to. I support Target. Does it matter? No.

I choose to spend my money differently and outside my fairly outrageous bikes have a really modest lifestyle in terms of spending. As a society we spend too much on too little and have nothing but debt to show for a lot of nothing.

[Climb01742]

Keno- I don't have any wmt holdings in my meager investments, but I'm not sure that is the point. If you feel strongly about something you make changes where you can. For most of us, that means not giving them our retail business. Thats a significant action we're taking, and if enough people do this, investor disinterest will follow. Not shopping at walmart is up to us; not investing in walmart is up to the fund managers.

+1

i may well be guilty of having investments that don't line up with all my beliefs. i don't follow my funds closely enough to know. my bad. but as bcm points out, i try to vote most passionately with my retail dollars. somehow that feels more meaningful, or maybe just more immediate. i do think hard about where i spend my retail dollars. i probably should look at my funds more closely.

[Richard]

Mission accomplished. No longer a discussion on WalMart and the nature of their impact, but a defense of self for the potential of holding WalMart stock through indirect investment.

[keno]

Keno's post is an example of a particularly insideous way to cut off debate by attacking the man, eh. Kind of like "how can you argue against eating meat when I see you wear leather shoes?" Well, it is not part of the debate as to whether I or anyone else may hold some stock through a vast mutual fund (I have no idea) and it is immaterial to Wal Mart's business practices or the impact that they have on a community.

thanks for the attaboy on my providing "an example of a particularly insideous (sp) way to cut off debate..." (incidentally, it's insidious), which, by the way, didn't seem to stop you. I've been accused of having lost my touch, but I am relieved to know that the old fast ball ain't completely gone.

Your "meat" analogy is quite incorrect if the metaphorical shoe-wearing man is against animal slaughter, which seems to be precisely the nature of the case against Walmart.

You must never have been a debater if you believe that my post is outside the scope of this debate, which you must forgive me if I have missed as the scope of debate here at the forum tends to be entertainingly broad.

One last thought here is that you seem to have attacked the man, who would be me in this case, and not his point. That point would be that it is quite human to compartmentalize contradictory aspects of the same issue to one's convenience. Saying they are not part of the same issue is simply a feint.

keno

[JohnS]

That point would be that it is quite human to compartmentalize contradictory aspects of the same issue to one's convenience. Saying they are not part of the same issue is simply a feint.

kenoJust like you have completely ignored my response to your nonsensical comments about WM employees telling you they like their jobs and matching prices. If you don't know how the retail world works, don't comment on it.
PS This isn't a defense of Richard as I'm quite sure he is capable of his own defense.

[Richard]

I think that a review of my post in comparison to yours, Keno, portrays one post as taking issue with a form of discussion wherein one side of an argument changes the focus to one of assualting the character of the other side. The other post is more obviously a personal attack. I leave it others to decide. Beyond that I won't engage in a pis#ing contest over this.

[keno]

good morning.

You responsed to my points, actually my experiences. Point - counterpoint. I was leaving it to anyone who actually cared to draw his or her own conclusions. I did not see any response by me as called for, but your having asked, in your own way, here are my thoughts.

1. Your description of my comments about employees I've spoken with being happy and Walmart honoring pricing errors as "nonsensical" hardly elevates your own point of view. Is that sort of like "Jane, you stupid slut"?

2. As to my first comment, in fact, the employees I spoke with may have been happy with Walmart. You were not with me to gauge their body language, tone of voice, and any indications that they were being honest with me, which I honestly took them to be. Moreover, not only do you not know the truth of the matter, but also it presses the imagination to believe that all 1,600,000, roughly, Walmart employees hate the man.

3. Insofar as laws requiring merchants to honor mistaken prices is concerned, two points are relevant. First, given all that has been said about Walmart and its dirty dance with the law, as some have described their actions, it would be completely in character for them not to obey this aspect of it through some device. Second, I have done business with retailers who have not been cooperative when it comes to honoring their own mistakes, and I'd bet that many on this forum have, as well, despite the requirements of any law, or have been less than courteous in making the adjustment.

At the end of the day, I expect that it is not Walmart's desire to obey the law that drives its courteously honoring mistakes but its desire to keep me as a customer that drives this. Consequently, your legal point is quite irrelevant.

The esssence of your comment to me about my knowledge of the retail industry, despite its inaccuracy, applies to you, I'm afraid, insofar as logic is concerned.

keno

[Avispa]

Check this out:

http://www.walmartmovie.com/

I went to a W-Mart a few years ago, then I started to discover what this company really meant.

Never again, as long as I can, I will set foot on that store!

A.

[JonnyComeLately]

This quote from today's Washington Post is just amazing to me:

"...in 93 percent of American households, one person shops at [Wal Mart's] stores at least once a year..."

The story goes on to say, though, that there are signs WalMart has saturated its own market, and may not be able to sustain the growth it has enjoyed. Maybe life as we know it isn't going to end after all...

Here's the link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/01/AR2006120101662.html

[oracle]

This quote from today's Washington Post is just amazing to me:

"...in 93 percent of American households, one person shops at [Wal Mart's] stores at least once a year..."

The story goes on to say, though, that there are signs WalMart has saturated its own market, and may not be able to sustain the growth it has enjoyed. Maybe life as we know it isn't going to end after all...

Here's the link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/01/AR2006120101662.html


thats an interestnig perspective, sort of a microcosm of the u.s. economic model of perpetual and unlimited growth.

[oracle]

^
^
^
^
^
^
from



"Many of Wal-Mart's core customers disliked the new clothes and skinny jeans, which also failed to set off a serious buzz among the fashion
conscious."

beautiful visual

[dave thompson]

Aye, and there's the rub:.. "And as one of the largest companies in the world, its missteps reverberate through the entire economy, as on the Monday after Thanksgiving, when management's warning of poor November sales figures helped drive the Dow Jones industrial average down 158 points."

It's so big and such a power in our economy that if WalMart hiccups, the rest of us get a cold.

[csm]

I must admit that I find this discussion of the "evils" of wal-mart and big box stores kinda of puzzling. I know that is a generalization but it is what I read into some/most of the comments.
I've seen other disussions on mail-ordering bike stuff to save money. I for one believe in supporting the "little" guy although I do buy stuff from rei-outlet, steepand cheap, etc.
I've worked in transportation and distribution and have seen some of the stuff that wm does to lower costs. I also had a neighbor who's dad invented and patented a turkey call. it used, of all things, bicycle innertubes to make the noise. he used to come into the shop I worked at once a year for a couple of cases of carlisle rubber innertubes. they would sit at their dining room table and knock these things out. when his father passed, Mike continued to make them; and earned a comfortable enough living to allow him to pursue his passions: hunting and fishing.
long story short, he got involved selling them to walmart. walmart, or a subsidary, decided to make them, stole the patent and left him high and dry.
for these reasons, and the fact that I hate dodging traffic in their parking lots, I simply refuse to go to walmart.

[Elefantino]

Pardon if already mentioned ... but ... is Target OK?

Target sells many of the same items (Levi's Signature Series, Schwinn and other Pacific bikes), but doesn't appear to generate as much animosity as Wal-Mart.

Why?

[dave thompson]

Pardon if already mentioned ... but ... is Target OK?

Target sells many of the same items (Levi's Signature Series, Schwinn and other Pacific bikes), but doesn't appear to generate as much animosity as Wal-Mart.

Why?
Target is only a 375lb gorilla on the block.

[JohnS]

The esssence of your comment to me about my knowledge of the retail industry, despite its inaccuracy, applies to you, I'm afraid, insofar as logic is concerned.

kenoBeing a shopper does not make you an expert on the retail industry. Anyone who knew a whit about retailing wouldn't try to sell a pair of used bike shorts! :p

[Karin Kirk]

Pardon if already mentioned ... but ... is Target OK?

Target sells many of the same items (Levi's Signature Series, Schwinn and other Pacific bikes), but doesn't appear to generate as much animosity as Wal-Mart.

Why?

I've wondered the same thing. I won't set foot in Wal-Mart but I go to Target all the time. I don't know if it's a perception thing or what. But speaking for our little town, when the Target opened it was a major happening and people seemed happy to have the store. A few years later, when the Wal-Mart wanted to expand to become a mega-wal-mart, they sent out postcards that were pre-addressed to the city commission. It was sort of like a little ballot that you could mail in and show how you feel about the new Wal-Mart. Except there was only one box to check: "YES - I want super Wal-mart." It reminded me of elections in certain "democracies" where 100% of the vote is cast for the current head of state.

That certainly didn't create much of a good neighborly feeling to me.

[catulle]

reading is fundamental

That's what my wife tells me when I push a door trying to get in when there is a PULL sign right in front of my nose.

[saab2000]

I was just going to post a longwinded answer here.

But I will keep it short by saying that I try to buy stuff in an economy where the money I spend might be re-spend/recycled back into my economy.

That is not the case with much stuff that is sold at both Target and Wal-Mart. Yeah, it is a world economy....

But how many people here support the concept of the LBS? Isn't it sort of the same?

Oddly, one of the "Evil Empire" bikes is built right in my former back yard. Trek's highest end bikes are still made in Wisconsin by people who probably bought insurance from my dad, etc.

[vaxn8r]

....But how many people here support the concept of the LBS? Isn't it sort of the same?


Bingo. Many of us may feel a bit self righteous taking a political stand against WM but many of our day to day actions do not reflect a coherency.

[oracle]

Bingo. Many of us may feel a bit self righteous taking a political stand against WM but many of our day to day actions do not reflect a coherency.


how very true. it is kind of like in the mid-90's when people were frequently found to be self-righteous about their personal nike boycott, but were happy as clams to wear other shoes that were made the same way....

[onekgguy]

I'm not sure anymore what i make of the Wallmart situation. I know that in Minnesota the starting wage for workers is something more than $10 per hour...likely quite a bit more than mom and pop stores in the area are/were paying their employees. The conservative side of me says that it's a free market and nobody is forcing people to either work there or shop there. I do believe that they help more than hurt the communities they establish themselves in. I can't help but think of the struggling families out there who are better able to clothe their children and buy necessities for their homes because of the cheaper prices at Wallmart.

But i do recall a time when Wallmart used to tout its products as made in the USA. Maybe i'm imagining that and that was never the case. I don't think they can make that claim any longer if they ever did.

There's a part of me though which is troubled (as BB Dave mentioned early on in this thread...at least i think it was him) by all the dollars being spent on products made in China and the net affect of that. I'm admittedly ignorant about the ramifications of that and willing to listen.

Kevin

[saab2000]

There's a part of me though which is troubled (as BB Dave mentioned early on in this thread...at least i think it was him) by all the dollars being spent on products made in China and the net affect of that. I'm admittedly ignorant about the ramifications of that and willing to listen.

Kevin

The only problem I have with spending money in China is that they are not as likely to re-spend that money in the US. But even that is gray, because the Chinese do buy things from the US, including hundreds of Boeing airliners, which are neither cheap nor low-tech.

So my own ignorance and prejudice may not be entirely with merit. But I would like to see the playing field a bit more level and I don't feel it is even close to level.

[keno]

Anyone who knew a whit about retailing wouldn't try to sell a pair of used bike shorts! :p

JohnS, I regret to inform you that just since November 19, last month, 8 pairs of used bib shorts were sold on eBay. If you want to replicate the evidence, simply go to eBay, do a search under "Used Bib Shorts", and go to "Completed listings" in the left-hand column. The transactions will be displayed.

By your own words, you have placed yourself in the category of not knowing a whit about retailing. I'm eager to see the boatload of vaseline you use to slip out of this.


Richard, my sole objective always was to provoke thought as to whether people are consistent in their actions. I seem to have succeeded in that regard both seen in posts and in PM. Your accusation that my goal was to cut off debate was strictly a projection on your part.

I am neither pro nor con Walmart. To me, Walmart is an "is", there for people to use or abuse. Incidentally, I do not and never have owned Walmart stock directly. I do not own mutual funds other than to the extent that Berkshire Hathaway is considered one insofar as indirect ownership of securities is concerned, and they did have a Walmart position (12/31/05) as I learned one minute ago when I looked. I don't think much of it as a buy, but I am in no position to argue with Warren Buffett when it comes to picking stocks.

keno