Friendly fire on the bike path (Minuteman Bike Path)

[MattTuck]

I know we have some folks on here that ride this route, so hopefully we are all OK. Tragic.

Usually we think of the bike path as a safer place, but nothing is 100%

Be careful out there.

https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/03/25/fatal-bicycle-crash-minuteman-bikeway-lexington



A bicyclist died Sunday after he collided with another cyclist on the Minuteman Bikeway in Lexington, according to police.

Lexington police Lt. Michael Tuomi said the initial investigation indicates that the two male cyclists were traveling in opposite directions Sunday afternoon when they struck each other head on. Police responded to the scene, about a mile from the Arlington town line, around 2:09 p.m.

Both men were taken to Lahey Hospital with “extensive injuries,” where one of them passed away from his wounds, according to police.

The other man remained hospitalized Monday morning, Tuomi said.

“He is going to be OK,” he said.

Police have not released the names of the two cyclists.

[AngryScientist]

wow that's terrible.

[benb]

Yikes I rode that path yesterday with my son & his friend. (They are 6) . Later in the day though and it was deserted.

Had the discussion with my wife who is fairly ignorant of bike things that the bike path was not necessarily safer than the quiet streets. Constant battle to stop her from trying to ride sidewalks and stuff.

It was 100% obvious yesterday was the day all the casual cyclists brought their bikes out. I saw about 100x other cyclists on Sunday compared to Saturday. I went for a ride around 3:45PM around Bedford -> Concord -> Carlisle then came back and picked up my son & his friend and took them on the path. Seems like exactly the day for something bad to happen on the path, lots of rusty riders out and there is ALWAYS someone trying to set a PR on the path.

It is partly why I am not happy the Reformatory Branch trail from Bedford to Concord is slated to be paved. Right now it's a quiet dirt trail with light traffic, it's going to be full of insanity like the main part of the Minuteman once it gets paved, plus we lose another nice dirt trail. I'm sure they'll remove the few places you get to turn your bike on it.

[jamesdak]

I refuse to ride my local bike path. Way too many hazards. I prefer riding on the road with no real shoulder and 50 mph traffic over the path.

Shame to read about this though.

[Blue Jays]

Jeez. Horrible and tragic news.
My thoughts are with those cyclists.

[benb]

To be fair the Minuteman path is a great path, you just need to avoid the peak hours on the weekend.

It is a great way to commute into Somerville & Cambridge, the commuter crowd is much safer.

But on the weekend in the middle of the day when the weather is nice it is all Mom's pushing strollers, people with dog's off the leash, kids wobbling all over the place, rollerbladers who need > 50% of the width of the trail, and fat guys on road bikes trying to get the Strava KOMs. And they're all wearing their earbuds rocking out. Saw a guy swinging his hockey stick around while skating recently even, I almost yelled "stop high sticking" at him cause he had the stick up high enough to closeline someone, but he had buds in.

[Bruce K]

A 71 year old cyclist was killed in a collision with another cyclist on the Minuteman Bikeway in Lexington, MA yesterday.

Unfortunately, I can’t access the article in The Boston Globe on line.

This really sucks and points out just how dangerous these bike paths can be.

BK

[Bruce K]

Update -

Head-on collision

BK

[Gummee]

We had something similar on the W & OD trail system a bit ago.

People get on MUTs and turn off their brains because 'it's safe...'

Shame for all involved

M

[AngryScientist]

threads merged. title updated to be more specific

[Bentley]

Ok, 2:09 pm, should still be plenty of light so how did something like this happen? I cant imagine riding into someone in the daylight unless they were in coming around a blind curve or some large object. Really weird

[Clean39T]

That's awful. Our main MUT in Portland (Springwater Trail) is a nightmare - homeless encampments, broken pavement, and way too many heads-down cyclists competing with dogs/kids/gawkers for space..

Be safe out there folks - and watch out for those who aren't watching out for themselves.

[bigbill]

I used to ride the Centennial Trail in WA State in the afternoon when I was rehabbing my knee after surgery. I was focused on 16 mph with a 90 cadence on the flat trail. There would be large packs of riders spread completely across the path doing 20+ mph in an organized group ride. Oncoming riders would often pull over or get off the path. I'd hug the centerline to the right and force them to check up and get on their own side. There was a perfectly good road parallel to the trail, the trail was no place to do group rides.

[unterhausen]

I imagine they both had their heads down.

Our trails mostly have pedestrian traffic.

I rode on the Capital Crescent trail and the WO&D trail during morning commute last spring, and I see exactly how this sort of thing happens. People going 20+ combined with passing slower traffic or pedestrians without slowing down. The Capital Crescent trail was scarier, because I was going outbound during inbound commuting hours. Of course, the WO&D had its moments, getting passed by a guy in a suit on an upright bike comes to mind. Then he ran a stoplight. Must have been late.

[benb]

Ok, 2:09 pm, should still be plenty of light so how did something like this happen? I cant imagine riding into someone in the daylight unless they were in coming around a blind curve or some large object. Really weird

Worst case on this path (I've been riding it occasionally for > 20 years) is mixed speed use cases.

You've got people going both directions, plenty of traffic. If you're the fit guy on a road bike with a brain you're slowing WAY down to like 5mph when you come up behind a family with young kids so you can wait for oncoming traffic to pass the other direction.

But you've got bike path heroes who are really bothered about slowing down... they're going as fast as possible on that path no matter what, so they are weaving back and forth to try and pass slower traffic in that narrow window before the other group coming towards them at 5-10mph blocks their ability to pass.

I just looked at my Track from yesterday. I averaged 9.8mph on one of the Strava Segments on the path yesterday with my 6-year old and his friend. Even if they spin out at 150rpm they are not going to exceed 15mph with the gearing on their 20" MTBs.

That Segment the leader is 25mph... what happens if that guy going 25mph hits my kid oncoming with a 35-40mph closing speed? Note that averaging 25mph on that MUT segment requires likely running through 2 stop signs plus a light that crosses a busy street, so realistically you need to exceed 30mph in places to do that.

[echappist]

I imagine they both had their heads down.

Our trails mostly have pedestrian traffic.

I rode on the Capital Crescent trail and the WO&D trail during morning commute last spring, and I see exactly how this sort of thing happens. People going 20+ combined with passing slower traffic or pedestrians without slowing down. The Capital Crescent trail was scarier, because I was going outbound during inbound commuting hours. Of course, the WO&D had its moments, getting passed by a guy in a suit on an upright bike comes to mind. Then he ran a stoplight. Must have been late.

for two relatively serious cyclists traveling in opposite directions, then relative speed is 40 mph. Huge world of hurt

i avoid the trails during peak times for just this reason... Granted, chances of getting killed as a result of bicycles-only crash is gotta be quite low, but chances of getting injured is still great (not to mention having to countenance all sort of impolite trail behavior)

Worst case on this path (I've been riding it occasionally for > 20 years) is mixed speed use cases.

You've got people going both directions, plenty of traffic. If you're the fit guy on a road bike with a brain you're slowing WAY down to like 5mph when you come up behind a family with young kids so you can wait for oncoming traffic to pass the other direction.

But you've got bike path heroes who are really bothered about slowing down... they're going as fast as possible on that path no matter what, so they are weaving back and forth to try and pass slower traffic in that narrow window before the other group coming towards them at 5-10mph blocks their ability to pass.

I just looked at my Track from yesterday. I averaged 9.8mph on one of the Strava Segments on the path yesterday with my 6-year old and his friend. Even if they spin out at 150rpm they are not going to exceed 15mph with the gearing on their 20" MTBs.

That Segment the leader is 25mph... what happens if that guy going 25mph hits my kid oncoming with a 35-40mph closing speed? Note that averaging 25mph on that MUT segment requires likely running through 2 stop signs plus a light that crosses a busy street, so realistically you need to exceed 30mph in places to do that.

ditto for the Schuylkill Trail here in Philly. Maybe when I was younger, I was brash, foolish, and inconsiderate enough to run stop signs on trails. Not anymore...

[makoti]

But on the weekend in the middle of the day when the weather is nice it is all Mom's pushing strollers, people with dog's off the leash, kids wobbling all over the place, rollerbladers who need > 50% of the width of the trail, and fat guys on road bikes trying to get the Strava KOMs. And they're all wearing their earbuds rocking out.

This describes every MUT. I'll use them, but never on weekends or nice spring evenings.

[seanile]

rode by the aftermath of that yesterday. had been trying to find out what came of it..sad.

[unterhausen]

Too bad flagging strava segments like that is so difficult and yet unsatisfying, in that they still have a leader board. I guess they know what their customers want.

I also go slowly on bike paths for the most part. It's just not worth it to go faster.

[AJosiahK]

thats incredibly sad. wow.

I ride that path alot, or used to. I worked in lex at RSC for several years and know the path well.

It can get kind of crazy at points, with strollers, walkers, dogs, kids, commuters, and racer type cyclists all using the same lanes.

My condolences to all loved ones.

ride safe out there yall

[fmradio516]

thats incredibly sad. wow.

I ride that path alot, or used to. I worked in lex at RSC for several years and know the path well.

It can get kind of crazy at points, with strollers, walkers, dogs, kids, commuters, and racer type cyclists all using the same lanes.

My condolences to all loved ones.

ride safe out there yall

Yeah I avoid this path at all costs. Those being the reasons. I just ride along side it on Rt-2A.

Whenever a buddy of mine wants to go for a ride, he always suggests the minuteman. I always say no because its a matter of time until something like this happens. Tons of moms walking side by side with strollers taking up the entire path chatting and not paying attention at all. :mad:

[MattTuck]

Yeah I avoid this path at all costs. Those being the reasons. I just ride along side it on Rt-2A.

Whenever a buddy of mine wants to go for a ride, he always suggests the minuteman. I always say no because its a matter of time until something like this happens. Tons of moms walking side by side with strollers taking up the entire path chatting and not paying attention at all. :mad:

maybe this is the point of the trail in the first place.

When they say "multi-use trail", that means a mix of users. It is not a limited access bike highway, like they seem to have in Europe.

[fmradio516]

maybe this is the point of the trail in the first place.

When they say "multi-use trail", that means a mix of users. It is not a limited access bike highway, like they seem to have in Europe.

Yeah but they are just abusing it. There is a line painted in the middle dividing the trail for both directions of traffic. Some people just dont care.

[vincenz]

Sad to see. I avoid all MUPs during busy times of day and season. I can control what I do, but I have no control over what other people do. Besides, I have a road bike. Best to just take it on the road where it belongs. If I wanted to cruise on an MUP, I’d use a town bike for the safety of myself and others.

[NYCfixie]

Sad but not surprising as yesterday was the first really nice day in months so all the truly recreational cyclists dusted the cobwebs off their bikes and went out for a ride.

It has been said by a few other local cyclists and it is sooooooooooooo true - that path is great for early morning and late evening commuters but other than that there are too many people of all ages walking, strollers, jogging, kids slow cycling, kids on scooters, dogs, and anything else you can imagine using it. It is not a place for people on bikes to be going fast and trying to get in a workout. Unfortunately it is one of the longest off-street paths in the area so it is over used.

[buddybikes]

This is real sad.

Just finished my way home from opticians on the east bay bike path in RI, yes heavily mixed use. Keep head up and have good glasses, which early in season for older riders can be issue if your neck muscles aren't in gear.

[Mark McM]

maybe this is the point of the trail in the first place.

When they say "multi-use trail", that means a mix of users. It is not a limited access bike highway, like they seem to have in Europe.

^^^^ This.

I treat MUPs as what they are: They are not transportation corridors, they are linear parks (with all the activities you'd expect in urban or suburban parks). I'll use the MUP when I want a leisurely cruise, take in the sights, and get some fresh air. But when I have somewhere to go or want to get a good workout, I'll take the roads.

[seanile]

the name of the trail does express a prioritization to bikes, however incorrect/correct that may be.
"Minuteman Commuter Bikeway (http://minutemanbikeway.org/)"

[benb]

The Cape Cod Rail Trail is much the same thing and IIRC they have posted 15mph speed limits there some places.

It may be they need to do the same thing, but nothing is going to stop the bad behavior.

It doesn't attract the safest cyclists, and all the other users have pretty much 0 idea that a trail should be treated with respect the same way the roadway is.

[nooneline]

for two relatively serious cyclists traveling in opposite directions, then relative speed is 40 mph. Huge world of hurt

A few years ago I was ending a ride on the first nice day of spring with several people, slogging back across a narrow path on bridge into a headwind, tired legs after 100km, maybe going 15mph.

As we reach the other side of the bridge, a lone cyclist comes flying around the bend - tailwind, downhill entry - and I hear a noise and turn around to see that he's hit the last member of my group head-on. Handlebar to handlebar contact.

The snapshot is burned into my brain - he was flying through the air and landed some thirty feet away; the person in my group collapsing over the handlebars on the way to the ground.

The other guy, when he landed, was screaming in pain, and his bike had bounced over the barrier and across two lanes of traffic. We found out later that he broke 2 ribs, cracked a vertebrae, and collapsed or punctured a lung. The member of my party? A broken thumb - but the other guy was riding again before our companion had healed and recovered from surgery.

We also found out later - from his garmin, since our party had recovered his bike and took it home with his contact info after he was loaded into an ambulance - that he had been going 30mph, downhill, tailwind, on the narrow path.

So yes. A huge world of hurt. And I'm still angry about it. And hearing about this story? Well, it makes me sad. And relieved that my experience wasn't worse.

[nooneline]

^^^^ This.

I treat MUPs as what they are: They are not transportation corridors, they are linear parks (with all the activities you'd expect in urban or suburban parks). I'll use the MUP when I want a leisurely cruise, take in the sights, and get some fresh air. But when I have somewhere to go or want to get a good workout, I'll take the roads.

Extremely this.
It may be a car-free way to get to a spirited ride -
but it ain't the place for a spirited ride.
A pox on people pushing hard on the pedals, huffing and puffing, or yelling.
And don't get me started about aerobars

[Climb01742]

Never would I ride the trail. And the stretch in Lexington is, by far, the most dangerous. Even the bit that exits in Concord can be crazy. There’s a spot where the dirt trail crosses Monument Street here in town and riders come bombing out of the dark tree cover and often blindly cross a very busy street. Just yesterday I fortunately slowed down on Monument during my ride as I approached the trail crossing...and a casual rider was flying down the dirt. Sadly for many riders, trails seem to offer false safety. All so sad.

[bward1028]

Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded.

[NHAero]

We have similar issues on the MUPs here on Martha's Vineyard. It is only going to get worse because of ebikes, and the fact that the riders are almost all visitors renting the ebike for a day. I came close to a head-on with a guy that musta weighed 275 lbs on an ebike - I would have been dead.

[beeatnik]

Extremely this.
It may be a car-free way to get to a spirited ride -
but it ain't the place for a spirited ride.
A pox on people pushing hard on the pedals, huffing and puffing, or yelling.
And don't get me started about aerobars

Individual triathletes and local clubs populate the major bike paths that run from the San Gabriel Valley to Long Beach. The larger groups average 25-30mph and the more competitive triathletes can ride over 30 on the faster stretches. I wonder if the random dog walkers and joggers know they may as well be walking on a freeway shoulder. A few years ago, bike shop owner who leads one of the faster and more aggressive shop rides lost focus in a 25mph paceline and drifted left. He collided with a rider from a paceline traveling in the opposite direction. He survived but was in a coma for a week.

[nooneline]

Individual triathletes and local clubs populate the major bike paths that run from the San Gabriel Valley to Long Beach. The larger groups average 25-30mph and the more competitive triathletes can ride over 30 on the faster stretches. I wonder if the random dog walkers and joggers know they may as well be walking on a freeway shoulder. A few years ago, bike shop owner who leads one of the faster and more aggressive shop rides lost focus in a 25mph paceline and drifted left. He collided with a rider from a paceline traveling in the opposite direction. He survived but was in a coma for a week.

It's as antisocial to speed down a MUP on a bike as it is to speed down a residential street in a car.

[cderalow]

The Cape Cod Rail Trail is much the same thing and IIRC they have posted 15mph speed limits there some places.

It may be they need to do the same thing, but nothing is going to stop the bad behavior.

It doesn't attract the safest cyclists, and all the other users have pretty much 0 idea that a trail should be treated with respect the same way the roadway is.

I've ridden the PMC the last three years and the segment on the CCRT is my least favorite.

the risks people take while riding that section in the name of fundraising are stupid. it's like they get on the trail after riding 140+ miles on road and forget all etiquette or decorum when it comes to riding in a group of hundreds.

[Bruce K]

The section through Arlington is no prize either. Especially out in the road crossing Mass. Ave.

BK

[echappist]

A few years ago I was ending a ride on the first nice day of spring with several people, slogging back across a narrow path on bridge into a headwind, tired legs after 100km, maybe going 15mph.

As we reach the other side of the bridge, a lone cyclist comes flying around the bend - tailwind, downhill entry - and I hear a noise and turn around to see that he's hit the last member of my group head-on. Handlebar to handlebar contact.

The snapshot is burned into my brain - he was flying through the air and landed some thirty feet away; the person in my group collapsing over the handlebars on the way to the ground.

The other guy, when he landed, was screaming in pain, and his bike had bounced over the barrier and across two lanes of traffic. We found out later that he broke 2 ribs, cracked a vertebrae, and collapsed or punctured a lung. The member of my party? A broken thumb - but the other guy was riding again before our companion had healed and recovered from surgery.

We also found out later - from his garmin, since our party had recovered his bike and took it home with his contact info after he was loaded into an ambulance - that he had been going 30mph, downhill, tailwind, on the narrow path.

So yes. A huge world of hurt. And I'm still angry about it. And hearing about this story? Well, it makes me sad. And relieved that my experience wasn't worse.

was this Philly or Brooklyn?

what an idiot to post his ride afterwards; if i were the aggrieved party, i'd have lawyered up and sued the daylight out of him. sheer madness...

[Bruce K]

Let’s avoid personal attacks.

That last comment could have been phrased better.

BK

[nooneline]

was this Philly or Brooklyn?

what an idiot to post his ride afterwards; if i were the aggrieved party, i'd have lawyered up and sued the daylight out of him. sheer madness...

it was in the midwest, prior to philly, between nyc stints.

and yeah. the aggrieved party definitely considered that. but decided it was more trouble than it was worth.

[eippo1]

Usually avoid the path unless it's in the off season or am just doing a slow warm down. As others have said, there's way too much other crap going on to ride at any speed on the path. It's just too dangerous for anyone.

Also, as someone who was involved with a kid in a collision (blindsided by a kid coming off a side road), a bike on bike collision can really eff you up. Enough to break my patella, seriously bruise both arms, draw blood in about a dozen places and that was just me. I think he got a pretty bad concussion out of it. Kinda wish my wife had gotten a pic of me since I looked like an extra from the Walking Dead. So yeah, i guess just be careful out there and keep your head up.

Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

[adrien]

When it's nice out, road only.

When unavoidable, MUPs are connectors only, and a chance to slow down, spin, pay attention, be part of a community. Or, plan on intervals, with braking to zero and coming back up to speed.

A danger I've seen in person: deer. In addition to collisions between people, I've seen deer take out a rider on a bike. He needed an ambulance. Not sure how the deer ended up.

It's a park, and everyone is allowed to be there. In the early morning, I will sometimes let the dog off the leash in the local park, because nobody is there. At 1pm on a sunny saturday I'd never do that.

[Climb01742]

When part of the people on a path see it as a sidewalk and part see it as a velodrome, trouble seems inescapable. Mixed use might not be possible, safely.

The craziest example I’ve been part of is, when I lived in NYC, trying to run or ride in Central Park on a nice weekend. A 6.2 mile Mad Max thunderdome.:eek:

[C40_guy]

I've ridden the PMC the last three years and the segment on the CCRT is my least favorite.

the risks people take while riding that section in the name of fundraising are stupid. it's like they get on the trail after riding 140+ miles on road and forget all etiquette or decorum when it comes to riding in a group of hundreds.

I'm not sure the stupidity is limited to the CCRT. I've seen groups of PMC riders blow through stop signs, red lights, cross the centerline on blind curves.

[C40_guy]

The Cape Cod Rail Trail is much the same thing and IIRC they have posted 15mph speed limits there some places.



And if you ride the path along the canal you also have to watch for people fishing on the side. They don't always look behind them before they cast...

[NHAero]

Hah, I noticed that last year when I rode back from Sandwich to Woods Hole :-)

And if you ride the path along the canal you also have to watch for people fishing on the side. They don't always look behind them before they cast...

[cderalow]

I'm not sure the stupidity is limited to the CCRT. I've seen groups of PMC riders blow through stop signs, red lights, cross the centerline on blind curves.

yeah. for the most part the ride seems fairly well controlled, but there's always one in every group that will ride like a total a-hole.

When i ride, I'll only go through the stop if it's controlled by one of the many police officers on the route and I'll only very rarely cross the centerline, and normally only to avoid a bottleneck and get clear of people who don't seem as certain on their riding.

And if you ride the path along the canal you also have to watch for people fishing on the side. They don't always look behind them before they cast...

indeed. I almost caught a hook to the face last year.

[echappist]

When part of the people on a path see it as a sidewalk and part see it as a velodrome, trouble seems inescapable. Mixed use might not be possible, safely.

The craziest example I’ve been part of is, when I lived in NYC, trying to run or ride in Central Park on a nice weekend. A 6.2 mile Mad Max thunderdome.:eek:

and you present it as if it were a bad thing ;)

jest aside, i loved cranking it out in CP, but almost always after 8pm

[Climb01742]

and you present it as if it were a bad thing ;)

jest aside, i loved cranking it out in CP, but almost always after 8pm

I did, too. But always at first light. I’m a morning guy.:) At the right hour, CP is the best part of the city, IMO.

[NewDFWrider]

Too bad flagging strava segments like that is so difficult and yet unsatisfying, in that they still have a leader board. I guess they know what their customers want.

I also go slowly on bike paths for the most part. It's just not worth it to go faster.

Interesting. You would think that Strava would just have a rule that banned segments on bikepaths. It shouldn't be that hard to code (says the non-coder).

[echappist]

Interesting. You would think that Strava would just have a rule that banned segments on bikepaths. It shouldn't be that hard to code (says the non-coder).
GPS accuracy makes that all but impossible to accomplish

now granted, for the well-known trails in the country (e.g. Minuteman in Boston, Schuylkill in Philly, West Side bike path in NYC, and Capital Cresecent trail in DC), this could be done on an ad hoc basis: enough people say it's a trail, then it is a trail

but for trails along roads, this is quite difficult to accomplish

[benb]

I flagged the segment the death happened on yesterday, I probably wasn't the only one to do so.

The system would work fine if Strava actually did anything when stuff got flagged.

With so many users it's almost a guarantee every dangerous segment is already flagged.

They've got near 100k activities that traverse the segments on the Minuteman.

[BobbyJones]

Let’s not blame Strava for human stupidity.

[MattTuck]

We really should not be blaming anybody (including human stupidity) at this point, as we have only vague information on what happened. The deceased was 71, maybe he lost consciousness and drifted into the other lane. We really don't know.

The only conclusion that can be drawn, and it isn't a surprise to most, is that you can't let your guard down on bike paths, even if it feels safer than riding on the street.

[Johnnysmooth]

I refuse to ride my local bike path. Way too many hazards. I prefer riding on the road with no real shoulder and 50 mph traffic over the path.

Shame to read about this though.

I'm with you - bike paths are more hazardous then the street

[cderalow]

I'm with you - bike paths are more hazardous then the street

I'd wager that both are equally hazardous dependent upon the time of day.

for me, roads are certainly hazardous during typically commuting hours, but the bike paths I'd take during the same time frame are mostly devoid of users beyond other bike commuters (capital crescent trail, C&O towpath).

now, outside of commuting hours, the opposite might be said. the paths are certainly more heavily used during the middle of the day and thus prove more of a hazard than the roads which have a lightened use.

so for me, commuters hours (early am, early PM) or late evening on the paths. all other times on the road.

[Mark McM]

I'm with you - bike paths are more hazardous then the street

I think they differ in number and severity of incidents. The chances of an incident may be greater on a bike path than on the street, but the incidents with the greatest degree of injury are probably more common on the road. One of the reasons that this latest fatal accident is getting a lot discussion is because it is so rare.

[vincenz]

Interesting. You would think that Strava would just have a rule that banned segments on bikepaths. It shouldn't be that hard to code (says the non-coder).



This would be the easiest way to immediately address the issue. How many heavily trafficked major trails are there in the US? Doesn’t make sense not to do it.

[benb]

I think they differ in number and severity of incidents. The chances of an incident may be greater on a bike path than on the street, but the incidents with the greatest degree of injury are probably more common on the road. One of the reasons that this latest fatal accident is getting a lot discussion is because it is so rare.

These stats are available in various public government/NTSB/whatever databases.

I have tried working with them before but it's a bunch of work and as usual real data is complicated and the real picture is complicated.

But it certainly doesn't support the mindset that bike paths are totally safe.

Mostly we end up with some reporter's back of the napkin take on the data.

There are always all these confounding data points that represent behaviors we can take that change risk dramatically.

I remember researching it more when I was motorcycling.. the stats look bad, but when you took the following steps:
- Wear a Helmet
- Have a License
- Take the MSF classes
- Don't be Drunk

All of a sudden the picture changed dramatically.

Most of those are relevant for us, but it's too bad there is no class that teaches people how to actually ride a bike really well. A lot of the bad motorcyclist memes/behaviors are repeated with bicyclists. "Had to lay it down", etc..

[imm]

I've ridden the PMC the last three years and the segment on the CCRT is my least favorite.

the risks people take while riding that section in the name of fundraising are stupid. it's like they get on the trail after riding 140+ miles on road and forget all etiquette or decorum when it comes to riding in a group of hundreds.

You have to leave MMA earlier :) In my opinion it's more about being on the trail and feeling "safer" from cars, along with the belief that it's a "bike path" and non-cyclists shouldn't be on it. The PMC is a charity ride with many first timers who have never ridden in groups like this before. There should be more education, for sure.