Cycling has been changed forever - safer helmet thread

[AngryScientist]

Sorry team, i screwed up and tried to merge the two threads and something went no-bueno.

carry on discussion of new trek helmets here!

[19wisconsin64]

https://wavecel.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/

As someone who deals with the challenges of having head trauma, I can say that better helmet protection is welcome! It looks like the prices start around $150, and hopefully other manufacturers will get to use this important technology as well. If the prices come down to the $50 to $100 level then more riders will be safe.
Other sports with high risk of head injuries will be using this technology too. Very welcome improvement in helmet protection! Yay

[mtechnica]

I want to buy one, we’ll see when that happens.

[R3awak3n]

a buddy just bought one... I can't wait to see it/try it.

pretty cool tech and anything to prevent concussions/brain injury I am all for it... even though they are heaaaavy

[AngryScientist]

the thing that concerns me is airflow. they dont look like they breathe very well.

this is no big deal on some days, but when you're climbing at slow speed, deep in the zone, it's not hard to overheat.

[ultraman6970]

THat thing looks exactly like smiths helmets to me. Same principle but different shape of the honey comb, even the same color...

If they use the same helmet shape of smith I wont be able to use it at all, same with the size, there is a reason why smith largest helmet is so freaking small, or maybe is may head that is too big? :P

[dddd]

Super-obnoxious Trek video, almost feels like I suffered a concussion after watching/hearing it.

[MagicHour]

R3awak3n report back here with your findings :)

a buddy just bought one... I can't wait to see it/try it.

pretty cool tech and anything to prevent concussions/brain injury I am all for it... even though they are heaaaavy

[R3awak3n]

R3awak3n report back here with your findings :)

I will check it out either this Friday or next week. Will compare it to my Synthe Mips

[Irishgirl]

Reposting my pics...stopped by my LBS today to pick up my bike and tried on the new helmet...first impressions...I agree with the earlier comment about air flow...the clasp is different and it felt heavier.

Having crashed before investing in a safe helmet is top on my priority list.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190320/d67fa4cc8625ce18a389942538c99bd6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190320/1853218af3a7c58f3bce13ee086406ad.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[quickfeet]

The smith helmet doesn’t do what the Bontrager helmet does. Their hex structure is an eps foam replacement, that’s why they still have to have mips.

Edit: I should say that while smiths helmets crumple it is in one direction, similar to eps foam

[Black Dog]

It seems that the protective insert would serve to provide little to no protection under the vents and only serve to decrease cooling in those areas.

[Bruce K]

Heavy they are NOT!!

The first hand report I got was super light and almost a little “squishy” to the feel.

Even the outer shell gives a little as part of the overall system

BK

[BobO]

Heavy they are NOT!!

The first hand report I got was super light and almost a little “squishy” to the feel.

Even the outer shell gives a little as part of the overall system

BK

I handled one today and concur with this. Aside from the claimed improvements in safety, this is a very comfortable helmet. I didn't get to move air over one, but I think even in an Arizona summer that the ventilation will probably be fine.

[54ny77]

I don't understand why bike helmets are still fancy foam coolers on the head, with straps. They should be highly engineered tools with crumple zones, a one and done if crashed. Football helmets are getting there, finally.

A honeycomb-like structure with super lightweight material but impact absorbing. And have the foam inserts/pads be impact foam, like in motorcycle gear. I used to have different Moto gear and the foam tech from even years ago was astounding. No joke, you could punch an elbow or spine pad straight on as hard as possible and the energy radically dissipated, hand not even sore.

[sethjs]

so I'm super excited about anything safety tech. But I'm pretty bummed on the weight. 390g for the large. Compares to 250g for a Met Trenta 3k and 310 for a POC Ventral with Spin.

[whateveronfire]

I’m intrigued enough to try one. It's release timing with the REI sale and dividend and their new listing of Bontrager products is a nice convergence. They only have the $150 road version on their web site (though they have the higher end mountain one). Hmm.

[Bruce K]

54ny77 -

This is Treks first attempt at just what you describe - crumple zones and all.

BK

[ColnagoC59]

You're describing Hexo's helmet a bit

[nooneline]

You're describing Hexo's helmet a bit

a lot of people have been saying this, and also drawing comparisons to Koroyd. But there are differences - this stuff is designed around a sort of multi-step deformation that Trek calls Flex Crumple Glide, and that's what decelerates the head slower.

I've never played with the materials, but one thing I can say that distinguishes this from Hexo and Koroyd is that it was launched with a scientific study, published in a peer-reviewed paper, and with results backed up by a reputable third-party tester who uses established methods to test helmets beyond what's required for certification.

I think that starts to get pretty different.

[GScot]

I'm in the market for a new helmet anyway. I need a long oval fit so I'm unsure of Bontrager but I did head out to the LBS yesterday and tried on a Mountain version in medium that was just a bit small. Ordered in a large $150 road helmet to try and hope to see it by the weekend.

[ultraman6970]

Since when marketing havent tried to make us think that something is innovation being that has been in the market for a while already?

The idea is to sell and differentiate from the other guys, even if you have to come up with a weird arss name for it. That's how marketing works... make you believe in unicorns...

No matter how trek calls it and how super duper it looks like, that stuff is honeycomb to me.

[quickfeet]

Since when marketing havent tried to make us think that something is innovation being that has been in the market for a while already?

The idea is to sell and differentiate from the other guys, even if you have to come up with a weird arss name for it. That's how marketing works... make you believe in unicorns...

No matter how trek calls it and how super duper it looks like, that stuff is honeycomb to me.

And all road bikes are steel!

[Bruce K]

I believe the innovation here is 3D printing to control the crush zone in a more optimal/engineered way.

The previous stuff, I believe was just the use of molded honeycomb materials as a first step to control the crushing/impact loads

BK

[chunkylover53]

I'm all for safety, and if these are effective and can come in at a decent price point, all the better. But for something to "change cycling" and be revolutionary, it would have to affect a large percentage of cyclists. And this gets to my question: how common are concussions in cycling? I'm sure people will jump in and say plenty or whatever, but I honestly don't know anyone whose experienced one. I've cracked a few helmets in crashes, but no concussions. If this were a hockey or football helmet, I'd be more persuaded of how it's going to change things. I guess it only takes one time, so fair enough. But in a one time collision with a car, or crash with significant spinal injuries, I suspect this type of helmet won't be a huge improvement.

[Bruce K]

Several years ago my rear wheel caught the edge of a pothole that came up real fast in our group.

Went down hard. Broken helmet. Momentary loss of consciousness. Concussed for days.

Think of almost any crash and there is some type of helmet to something impact involved. Most people don’t really pay attention to post impact helmet issues unless it is major/obvious.

So yes, it happens in Cycling. And probably more than we recognize.

BK

[fbhidy]

THat thing looks exactly like smiths helmets to me. Same principle but different shape of the honey comb, even the same color...



If they use the same helmet shape of smith I wont be able to use it at all, same with the size, there is a reason why smith largest helmet is so freaking small, or maybe is may head that is too big? :P



The difference is exactly in the shape. The technology comparison ends with the color and look. Beyond that they function VERY differently in an impact.

I’ve not used either the Smith nor the new wave cell to speak towards air flow, but my understanding is that it’s not an issue.

Bontrager wavecell helmets will have sizes up to 61cm (XXL) which is pretty large.


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[wallymann]

agree. all venting is effectively blocked to meaningful thru-flow.

i'll wait for V2 designs to emerge with improved airflow.

the thing that concerns me is airflow. they dont look like they breathe very well.

this is no big deal on some days, but when you're climbing at slow speed, deep in the zone, it's not hard to overheat.

[benb]

I don't understand why bike helmets are still fancy foam coolers on the head, with straps. They should be highly engineered tools with crumple zones, a one and done if crashed. Football helmets are getting there, finally.

A honeycomb-like structure with super lightweight material but impact absorbing. And have the foam inserts/pads be impact foam, like in motorcycle gear. I used to have different Moto gear and the foam tech from even years ago was astounding. No joke, you could punch an elbow or spine pad straight on as hard as possible and the energy radically dissipated, hand not even sore.

I don't know what you're smoking bicycle helmets are way above football helmets in total protective value and are already "one and done" helmets.

Football continues to make the tradeoff to make the helmets less protective so they don't have to constantly replace them. The football (or hockey) helmet feels better below a certain threshold but above that threshold the football helmet allows a severe injury that the bicycle (or moto) helmet will protect against.

Bicycle helmets and motorcycle helmets are already really similar a motorcycle helmet just makes a different tradeoff in terms of weight/ventilation vs total protective capability.

Bicycle helmets actually seem to be more "one and done" than motorcycle helmets because at least in the case of higher end helmets like SNELL they are expecting a severe crash might involve more than one hit before your body comes to a stop since motorcycle crashes happen at higher speeds. (E.x. you low-side, hit your head on the road surface, then slide into a curb and hit your head on the curb.)

Stuff like knee/elbow pads & back protectors on motorcycle suits (I've owned a few) are not the same. You don't have to worry about a brain injury if your knee hits something. They're pretty irrelevant to bicycle helmets. I don't know what the G-force requirement is to break your leg but I doubt it's the same as a head injury and the consequences are different.

[R3awak3n]

its funny, maybe I just have had helmets with good airflow but it has never been something I even noticed and said... wow the airflow on this helmet is so poor. I never even noticed a difference btw different helmets and I have had at least 6.

[benb]

I have an S-Works Prevail (older) and a Bontrager Ballista (got it last year) and I can definitely tell a difference in ventilation between those too.

But if I only had ever had the Ballista would I care on a really hot day? I don't know if I would. It's not like the Ballista is so bad I'm overheating and collapsing on the side of the road.

This Wavecel stuff is exciting IF their claims are actually true. The Ballista I bought last year is MIPS, I kind of feel like MIPS is in the same category, it might be better but we're mostly taking the company's word on it. But most of us have ended up deciding to get a MIPS helmet. If Wavecel works as well as they are claiming it is worth trying as they're claiming a much bigger improvement than MIPS. I guess it'd just be nice to see it backed up by more independent tests.

[Climb01742]

Several years ago my rear wheel caught the edge of a pothole that came up real fast in our group.

Went down hard. Broken helmet. Momentary loss of consciousness. Concussed for days.

Think of almost any crash and there is some type of helmet to something impact involved. Most people don’t really pay attention to post impact helmet issues unless it is major/obvious.

So yes, it happens in Cycling. And probably more than we recognize.

BK

+1
I was lucky to come away from a crash with a mild concussion. I remember hitting my head on both sides. I fell to the right first, bounced, then fell to my left. My helmet and shoulders had dents/scratches on both sides. I was in a fog dragging myself out of the road and calling my wife. The ER confirmed the mild concussion. I'll check out this helmet for sure. I like my brain stirred, not shaken.

[Michael Maddox]

For what it's worth, I have a WaveCel XXX helmet.

I have a "Bell" head, and it fits my head quite nicely. The weight isn't appreciably different, unless you prefer only ultralight helmets. I have typically worn Lazer and Kask helmets up to this point, though I tried a Giro Vanquish this year. None are particularly light.

The WaveCel is covered by a thin liner strip, not nearly so thick as the inserts in most helmets. The strap is super light, and could be MUCH better; I like the faux leather chin piece on some of the other lines as it doesn't roll up and twist, and generally stays adjusted better than the nylon and plastic.

It's definitely a thinner profile. I don't look NEARLY so much like a toadstool as I do in the Vanquish or Catlike helmets...that's a plus for someone with a big head like mine.

So, at first glance, so long as it's protective, I like it. Seems a bit more aero, fits well, and is rather low-key compared to the graphics on some. What's not to like? Just hope it does what it says, if I ever need it to.

Will be road testing this, this weekend.

And no...I didn't REALLY wear it on the trainer.

[benb]

I had one race crash (giant pile up) where I ran over riders in front of me and got sent airborne, did a flip in the air, and hit my head pretty good.

No concussion but it was REALLY scary. The officials were holding me down cause they thought for sure they were going to be sending me away in the ambulance.

So I will definitely be checking these out despite just getting a new helmet last year.. I ride more cold days than hot days, if there is any truth to the claims it'll be worth less ventilation.

[Mark McM]

No matter how trek calls it and how super duper it looks like, that stuff is honeycomb to me.

Look closer. There's a reason that Trek doesn't call it HexCel or HoneycombCel - this new material is formed in waves, not hexes or honeycombs. The wave shapes allow the material to flex easily in a shearing mode, whereas hexagonal honeycombs don't. And the shearing mode is important, because it reduces the transfer or rotational forces/movement between the head and the helmet outer shell. Studies have shown that the concussions are more common in rotational accelerations, so anything that reduces rotational forces on the head should reduce concussions.

[PSJoyce]

I tried the XXX WaveCel Road today. Short story, probably the most comfortable helmet I've ever worn.

Bontrager helmets fit me well, and I've been wearing the Velocis MIPS for the last year or so and been very happy with it. The XXX WaveCel fits even better, and the straps are re-routed at the back of the helmet in a better way.

Riding, the thing just disappears. No bouncing or shifting around. Not noisier, although it did seem like air was routed right over my ears.

Comparing the XXX and the Velocis, the XXX is noticeably heavier holding them side by side, but I did not feel the weight difference while riding.

For background, over a lot of years I've broken, I think, six helmets in crashes. Assuming the claims of enhanced protection are true, I'll keep riding the XXX WaveCel while hoping there's never a seventh event.

[nooneline]

I keep thinking about my own recent concussion, which wasn't evident at first - I kept racing - and manifested later and led to a few very strange months.

I think about how I once told my partner that if I got more than one concussion, I'd stop racing. and how, with one under my belt, I really don't want to stop racing...

But more importantly, I think about the brain injury sustained by a rider I knew a decade ago - he's still very impaired in both cognition and mobility. I think about the brain injury sustained by a rider in a race I was in, and the coma he was in for a few weeks. I think about Kelly Catlin - all signs seem to indicate that her suicide was a product of a TBI - and I think about a few other people who've told me that their concussions led to suicidal depression.

I think about all of this stuff and I welcome this product because I really think it has the possibility to change lives.

[19wisconsin64]

It's great that this new technology can help lower the chance of brain injuries, but more than one company needs to use it to help the most people. The technology should not be held by one company, it should be shared..... it's a life saving thing...like when Mercedes and Volvo shared their air bag and other technologies with other manufacturers. It's the right thing to do.

Please read the following written by a long-time racer & rider. I'm sure most of the readers of this forum know or have heard of someone who has also had their lives affected by head trauma caused during bicycling.


I keep thinking about my own recent concussion, which wasn't evident at first - I kept racing - and manifested later and led to a few very strange months.

I think about how I once told my partner that if I got more than one concussion, I'd stop racing. and how, with one under my belt, I really don't want to stop racing...

But more importantly, I think about the brain injury sustained by a rider I knew a decade ago - he's still very impaired in both cognition and mobility. I think about the brain injury sustained by a rider in a race I was in, and the coma he was in for a few weeks. I think about Kelly Catlin - all signs seem to indicate that her suicide was a product of a TBI - and I think about a few other people who've told me that their concussions led to suicidal depression.

I think about all of this stuff and I welcome this product because I really think it has the possibility to change lives.

[benb]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/trek-and-bontrager-announce-most-advanced-helmet-technology-ever-designed/

If you can believe the test #s in this article these helmets are a giant step forward.

I agree it should get licensed all over the place if the #s are real.

The meters/sec values for these tests are comparable to the snell motorcycle standard... hard hits.

[54ny77]

Perhaps I'm not smoking what you're smoking, since you missed my point completely. But that aside, be safe out there. :D

I don't know what you're smoking bicycle helmets are way above football helmets in total protective value and are already "one and done" helmets.

Football continues to make the tradeoff to make the helmets less protective so they don't have to constantly replace them. The football (or hockey) helmet feels better below a certain threshold but above that threshold the football helmet allows a severe injury that the bicycle (or moto) helmet will protect against.

Bicycle helmets and motorcycle helmets are already really similar a motorcycle helmet just makes a different tradeoff in terms of weight/ventilation vs total protective capability.

Bicycle helmets actually seem to be more "one and done" than motorcycle helmets because at least in the case of higher end helmets like SNELL they are expecting a severe crash might involve more than one hit before your body comes to a stop since motorcycle crashes happen at higher speeds. (E.x. you low-side, hit your head on the road surface, then slide into a curb and hit your head on the curb.)

Stuff like knee/elbow pads & back protectors on motorcycle suits (I've owned a few) are not the same. You don't have to worry about a brain injury if your knee hits something. They're pretty irrelevant to bicycle helmets. I don't know what the G-force requirement is to break your leg but I doubt it's the same as a head injury and the consequences are different.

[mingc]

The cyclingnews article cites an "independent" test. That test was not "independent." The test is from a whitepaper linked on Trek's webpage (https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/what-is-wavecel/) and authored by, among others, the 2 guys Trek credits with inventing the design. It's a terrific design maybe, but great marketing certainly.

[nooneline]

The cyclingnews article cites an "independent" test. That test was not "independent." The test is from a whitepaper linked on Trek's webpage (https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/what-is-wavecel/) and authored by, among others, the 2 guys Trek credits with inventing the design. It's a terrific design maybe, but great marketing certainly.

two points though: the paper published by the inventors of the technology isn't a white paper, it's an academic/scientific paper published in a peer-reviewed journal. And, the independent test is testing/scoring done by Virginia Tech, which has a well-respected lab that has done helmet testing and scoring for a good while now.

[josephr]

its a super awesome...and, after picking up my riding buddy off the road last fall after he was rear-ended by a pick-up, I'm certainly glad to see the folks at Trek are taking it seriously...

However, I hope I'm not the only one bummed out about all the marketing hype about something that will 'change cycling forever' which essentially amounts to a safer helmet only for those who can afford $150+ for a helmet. I've heard all the 'whats your brain worth' arguments, but to those I ask if my $90 Giro isn't safe???? Really, with all the hype from a marketing perspective, I would've hope an Emonda SLR with graphene or at least another BB standard. :rolleyes:

[Michael Maddox]

I noticed on today's recovery ride that the helmet has more coverage over the forehead and browline. Granted, that may just be how it sits on my head, but I've never noticed a helmet this low on my brow before. With the adjustment tightened up, the helmet was snug, secure, and very comfortable.

Let's see what happens during a Tallahassee summer.

[oldpotatoe]

The cyclingnews article cites an "independent" test. That test was not "independent." The test is from a whitepaper linked on Trek's webpage (https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/what-is-wavecel/) and authored by, among others, the 2 guys Trek credits with inventing the design. It's a terrific design maybe, but great marketing certainly.

Shades of Boeing and the FAA:eek:

[batman1425]

Shades of Boeing and the FAA:eek:

Not the same. See above, peer reviewed paper in an academic journal which is far from a white paper. Reasonable and expected that the inventors of new tech will be contributing authors to such a publication. Like all peer reviewed science it was vetted and critiqued by external reviewers that are not invested in the product or results prior to publication.

[berserk87]

Here is an article noting some pushback about the new helmet system:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/bontrager-helmet-safety-performance-falls-far-claims-says-mips-411226

[wooly]

I've got a Smith road helmet (non-mips) and a mountain helmet with mips. They definitely restrict air flow more than other, well ventilated helmets. I don't mind on most days but when it's hot, I reach for my non-mips POC helmets. If the airflow of the new Trek helmets is better than the Smiths I'd give it a try. Sucks that I have 6 helmets hanging in my garage tho!

[makoti]

Here is an article noting some pushback about the new helmet system:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/bontrager-helmet-safety-performance-falls-far-claims-says-mips-411226

One system says the other system fails at it's claims after the first system claims to be better. Shocked, I tell ya.
We need independent tests. Hopefully we get them.

[Lewis Moon]

After my concussion and subdural hematoma last year, I am completely on board with safer helmets. I'm worried that Trek may be over selling the tech, though. The journal is indeed peer reviewed (by two) but having been in the same position as a reviewer and author, when you're doing research on the bleeding edge of a new technology, it's hard to get a really adequate review.

The MIPS folks come off a bit butt hurt in their review of the article, but they have some good points...especially about the objectiveness of the authors.
There really does need to be an independent review before making the claims Trek is trumpeting.
Never lose site of Trek's main responsibility as a corporation.

[benb]

I have 0 faith in MIPS being any more impartial than Trek/Bontrager. Trek stays in business by selling more bike stuff, MIPS stays in business by selling their helmet technology.

MIPS has had years and we're still supposed to take their word on it.

If there is anything to point to MIPS being worthwhile it's the same Virginia Tech lab's testing showing that MIPS helmets are slightly better than non MIPS helmets.

It seems like it is impossible Wavecel could ever equal MIPS in MIPS lab.

I don't hate MIPS or anything, I have a MIPS helmet and I made sure my child was in a MIPS helmet too. Next step is to get my wife in a MIPS or Wavecel helmet, she is way overdue for a new helmet.

[Mark McM]

Virginia Tech has been testing and rating helmets (https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html) and their ability to limit rotational velocity for a while now, and they appear to be independent of the folks who developed Wavecell. They've tested a number of MIPS and Wavecell helmets, and the top 18 rated helmets are all either MIPS or Wavecel. The Wavecel helmets placed 1st, 3rd, 11th and 12th, and the rest were MIPS. Interestingly, the top 2 helmets are both Bontragers, and the Wavecel model only slightly edged out the MIPS model.

Based on the Virginia Tech tests, Wavecel appears to be roughly comparable to MIPS, and is not the dramatic leap forward that Trek claims.

[benb]

Virginia Tech has been testing and rating helmets (https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html) and their ability to limit rotational velocity for a while now, and they appear to be independent of the folks who developed Wavecell. They've tested a number of MIPS and Wavecell helmets, and the top 18 rated helmets are all either MIPS or Wavecel. The Wavecel helmets placed 1st, 3rd, 11th and 12th, and the rest were MIPS. Interestingly, the top 2 helmets are both Bontragers, and the Wavecel model only slightly edged out the MIPS model.

Based on the Virginia Tech tests, Wavecel appears to be roughly comparable to MIPS, and is not the dramatic leap forward that Trek claims.

The VT tests are pretty light on the data.

So the Bontrager Ballista that I have right now get 5 stars and so do the new Wavecel helmets...

A rating system of 1-5 isn't enough to know what's going on at all.

It'd be way nicer if they showed the actual test data, like how many Gs each helmet transferred in each test.

[dustyrider]

I’m waiting for 14 speed..:banana:

[pobrien]

Tested independently at the Helmet Impact Testing (HIT) facility of the Portland Biomechanics Laboratory, results showed Bontrager WaveCel helmets prevent concussion in 98.8 per cent of crash tests at a 45-degree angle, potentially changing future helmet design entirely.

The article referenced from Cycling news by Ben states that the prevention of concussion was 98.8 percent at 45-degrees. Is this a common test used by the other manufacturers? I would think a direct impact would be more relevant to the discussion to a glancing blow.

I have a MIPS Giro helmet as I want a safe helmet but I still question whether the MIPS is effective as one's hair would act as a slip layer with or without MIPS in the helmet. I don't recall anyone addressing this aspect of MIPS performance in reducing head injury.

[batman1425]

The VT tests are pretty light on the data.

So the Bontrager Ballista that I have right now get 5 stars and so do the new Wavecel helmets...

A rating system of 1-5 isn't enough to know what's going on at all.

It'd be way nicer if they showed the actual test data, like how many Gs each helmet transferred in each test.

Not raw data, but there is a score that is listed below the number of stars on each helmet which is a more detailed assessment of performance. The methodology they use to calculate that is described here: https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/bitstream/handle/10919/83760/Bicycle%20STAR%20Methodology.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

A lower number indicates better performance. Interestingly, the Bontrager MIPS Balista scored only slightly worse than the Wavecell Spector, and performed better than the XXX wavecell. Further, the mountain WaveCell options are out performed by several road and mountain MIPS options.

[benb]

If you look at some of the Wavecell claims they appear to be testing with velocities and/or angles that are beyond the normal test limits of the STAR rating system that VT uses to produce their rankings.

As for the angles, that has something to do with the orientation of your head when you hit... you can have a 45 degree hit on flat pavement if I understand correctly. I think you could get that if your horizontal velocity & vertical velocity are equal as well.

Also helmets need to protect you from hits to other things than flat pavement. Curbs, rocks, etc..

It would be perfectly possible for a helmet to be better and not test better on a particular test protocol if it's benefits were for impacts that were not tested.

[batman1425]

It would be perfectly possible for a helmet to be better and not test better on a particular test protocol if it's benefits were for impacts that were not tested.

Agree, and I think this is the crux with the marketing from all manufacturers. Where many of them fall short, IMO, is they do a poor job substantiating why their chosen assessments/metrics are more reflective of "real world" conditions. A measurement is only as good as the ruler and when you get carte blanche to build your own ruler, it's easy to find the result you want.

I appreciate the comment from MIPS (which admittedly came across in a defensive tone) that for a fair comparison - all of the products need to be tested in the same way and held to a same standard. A valuable spin from this competition in tech would be the establishment of industry wide standards and testing method benchmarks.

[nooneline]

One system says the other system fails at it's claims after the first system claims to be better. Shocked, I tell ya.
We need independent tests. Hopefully we get them.

we have them (https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html).

[benb]

I guess the key takeaway from the VT data since it is not that revealing for me is that there are no 5 star helmets without either MIPS or Wavecel.

For me that means it's time for my S-Works Prevail (v1, non-MIPS) to go in the trash. It's pretty old, but I have still been wearing it for MTB or around town since it definitely has better ventilation than my newer helmet. Neither of those use cases is likely low risk.

[Mark McM]

Also helmets need to protect you from hits to other things than flat pavement. Curbs, rocks, etc.

That's probably already covered. All helmets sold in the US have to meet the CPSC standard, and that includes tests of the helmet striking curved and angled surfaces (to simulate curbs and rocks and such).

It would be perfectly possible for a helmet to be better and not test better on a particular test protocol if it's benefits were for impacts that were not tested.

That's likely true, but how would you compare different helmets if there were no standard for comparison?

[azrider]

Here is an article noting some pushback about the new helmet system:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/bontrager-helmet-safety-performance-falls-far-claims-says-mips-411226

..........from their biggest competitor.............



https://media.giphy.com/media/6yRVg0HWzgS88/giphy.gif

[R3awak3n]

and maybe MIPS is right that their claims are rather high, however, even if this new helmet improves say 10% over a MIPS, that is worth it in my book.

[MagicHour]

Should give Trek/Bontrager goods a sales boost and will be good for REI based on my anecdotal sample size of 1. Haven't had much interest in their products up until now (apart from my '89 Trek 660 R.I.P.) but just like that, now I'm turning over visiting a local lbs to upgrade my helmet.

[Lewis Moon]

The VT tests are pretty light on the data.

So the Bontrager Ballista that I have right now get 5 stars and so do the new Wavecel helmets...

A rating system of 1-5 isn't enough to know what's going on at all.

It'd be way nicer if they showed the actual test data, like how many Gs each helmet transferred in each test.

This. Plus, Does the POC Octal tested have the "SPIN" modification? POC makes both...

[wallymann]

that new padding seriously impedes air-flow at anything above walking speed. it completely blocks every vent-aperture and the alignment of the internal channels in the padding does not align with airflow at all.

the padding feels surprisingly stiff, but i have no doubt the stuff works. color me intrigued. i'll wait until they refine the mfg process in v2 so that ventilation is not so compromised.

[mcteague]

that new padding seriously impedes air-flow at anything above walking speed. it completely blocks every vent-aperture and the alignment of the internal channels in the padding does not align with airflow at all.

the padding feels surprisingly stiff, but i have no doubt the stuff works. color me intrigued. i'll wait until they refine the mfg process in v2 so that ventilation is not so compromised.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v9FMoL45i2I

Shane Miller has a video on it. He worries that, along with blocking air flow, the WaveCel material is stiff enough to actually cut into your scalp upon impact if you are bald. Something to consider for we follically challenged cyclists.

Tim

[azrider]

Wow....these helmets are super comfy. I didn’t know they come in two different models. The XXX is $299?? Ouch ...

Also surprised that the lower end model was “smaller”.....hmmm

Both helmets in pic are size M

[ColnagoC59]

48 times safer!!
i'll wait for the independent testing before jumping for joy

[MagicHour]

Stopped in a Trek shop today to have a look and maybe give the Specter a shot. Sadly sizing just didn't work for my 56cm dome: the M fit but looked a little too "mushroom head" on me, at least insofar as I think a $150 helmet should look; S fit with the BOA cranked all the way open but left no margin for error or room for a cap.

My personal sizing issues aside, both the XXX and Specter looked nice, didn't seem too heavy in hand. They also had a swatch of the wavecel material you could play around with - its pretty stiff and has edges, and the salesguy gave a good elevator pitch explaining the technology.


Wow....these helmets are super comfy. I didn’t know they come in two different models. The XXX is $299?? Ouch ...

Also surprised that the lower end model was “smaller”.....hmmm

Both helmets in pic are size M

[alancw3]

Should give Trek/Bontrager goods a sales boost and will be good for REI based on my anecdotal sample size of 1. Haven't had much interest in their products up until now (apart from my '89 Trek 660 R.I.P.) but just like that, now I'm turning over visiting a local lbs to upgrade my helmet.

I just went on the rei website for my local store and they did not show the any trek helmets. perhaps that will happen down the line as i am definitely interested.

[oldpotatoe]

48 times safer!!
i'll wait for the independent testing before jumping for joy

AND I'll wait until 'real world, summer time', testing for airflow. I changed from a 'better' Catlike to a 'less better' mavic because the Catlike was too warm..:eek:
This thing 'looks' warm...

[nooneline]

48 times safer!!
i'll wait for the independent testing before jumping for joy

Virginia Tech's helmet safety lab uses similar methods as those described in the paper in Accident Injury and Prevention, but VT a different calculation/aggregation of results... However, from their tests, 2 Wavecel helmets are in the top 3 of the 30 or so helmets they tested this year (lowest scoring, best ranking). So that's pretty good.

[sitzmark]

Virginia Tech's helmet safety lab uses similar methods as those described in the paper in Accident Injury and Prevention, but VT a different calculation/aggregation of results... However, from their tests, 2 Wavecel helmets are in the top 3 of the 30 or so helmets they tested this year (lowest scoring, best ranking). So that's pretty good.

All well and good, but is there real world data that correlates to test lab results on a dummy head as measured against concussion mitigation for real people ... CPSC or revised oblique testing? I’ve not seen data for bike or ski helmets that shows a dramatic shift in general death rates or head injury - specifically none that proves a better test score returns a better outcome.

[zmalwo]

Hmmmm.... Looking at the helmets makes me think that wrinkles on our brain are actually an evolutionary counter measure to concussion. Instead of a huge block of smooth jelly, having some wrinkles can absorb most of the impact when hit... Just my thoughts

[nooneline]

All well and good, but is there real world data that correlates to test lab results on a dummy head as measured against concussion mitigation for real people ... CPSC or revised oblique testing? I’ve not seen data for bike or ski helmets that shows a dramatic shift in general death rates or head injury - specifically none that proves a better test score returns a better outcome.

when you say real world data, are you proposing a study wherein people are... knocked off of their bikes, and evaluated for head trauma, while wearing different helmets? Let me know when you find an IRB that will approve that study...

I can tell you - as a research scientist - that this is the kind of situation where the best you can get, more or less, is lab results. You can base your methods on sounds research and assumptions about what you're measuring; and yes, you can report its limitations. But you're never going to be able to do a controlled "real world" study of it; you're never going to have the numbers that will let you do a case-control study, either, and "real world" data is going to be too full of variables to draw any meaningful conclusions. Sorry! Limits of practicing science ethically.

It doesn't mean we can't generate knowledge.

[sitzmark]

Yes - that is the challenge and why there won’t be definitive evidence. Death rates are not declining. Unless a controlled study is developed to log degree of concussion to specific helmet used then even a rough correlation can’t be made. Even such a study couldn’t control for force/vector of impact.

I’m in the camp of helmets can’t hurt, but are certainly not revolutionizing cycling (or skiing). Maybe widespread use of wavecel will correlate to a drastic change to general statistics - that would be welcome. Just doubt it. Higher speed collisions with vehicles and obstacles that result in death are often due to blunt force trauma to head or chest that even wavecel isn’t likely to address. If ultimate head safety is the goal, a motor sports helmet is the way to go. Most of us would not wear a motor sports helmet for cycling due to heat and weight - so some degree of compromise is endorsed for comfort/etc.

For competitive cycling better helmet tech probably returns rewards. For general cycling it isn’t helmets that revolutionize safety, as proved by high cycling participation in the Netherlands and very low use of helmets.

[quickfeet]

Just went for a 50 mile ride in my new specter helmet, helmet is super comfy and didn’t make any weird noises or rattles. It was cold as all get out and windy so I can’t speak for ventilation yet.

[nooneline]

Yes - that is the challenge and why there won’t be definitive evidence. Death rates are not declining. Unless a controlled study is developed to log degree of concussion to specific helmet used then even a rough correlation can’t be made. Even such a study couldn’t control for force/vector of impact.

I’m in the camp of helmets can’t hurt, but are certainly not revolutionizing cycling (or skiing). Maybe widespread use of wavecel will correlate to a drastic change to general statistics - that would be welcome. Just doubt it. Higher speed collisions with vehicles and obstacles that result in death are often due to blunt force trauma to head or chest that even wavecel isn’t likely to address. If ultimate head safety is the goal, a motor sports helmet is the way to go. Most of us would not wear a motor sports helmet for cycling due to heat and weight - so some degree of compromise is endorsed for comfort/etc.

For competitive cycling better helmet tech probably returns rewards. For general cycling it isn’t helmets that revolutionize safety, as proved by high cycling participation in the Netherlands and very low use of helmets.

yeah, you've got it right. you could put a wavecel helmet on everybody who ever rides a bike, and it probably wouldn't affect death rates or anything, because there are other, more significant things that affect deaths: safer streets, fewer cars, etc.

however, research is starting to understand the impact of minor concussions. having experienced one, i can say they are no laughing matter. things that used to be shrugged off - "well, you didn't lose consciousness and you're not dizzy right now, so you're probably fine" - are now, we realize, still injuries of significant concern and delayed effect. if these helmets prevent those, then that's great. existing helmet standards aren't required to protect against these less traumatic impacts; they're designed to prevent your skull from breaking. more protection from these smaller impacts (i hit my head against soft ground and grass for my concussion, had symptoms appear 10 days later and stick around for months) is reason for optimism.

[mcteague]

Curious. REI had the helmet on their website right after product announcement and then it went to "404 not found" page for a while. Today, it is back and the price for a Specter is reduced. REI rarely has sales for new product. Wonder what is up?

https://www.rei.com/product/153008/bontrager-specter-wavecel-helmet

Bontrager Specter WaveCel Helmet

Item #153008
$119.99 $150.00*

REDUCED PRICE You Save 20%


Tim

[quickfeet]

It’s Trek Fest right now so all Bontrager stuff is 20% off at participating shops and on trekbikes.com

[martl]

Yes - that is the challenge and why there won’t be definitive evidence. Death rates are not declining. Unless a controlled study is developed to log degree of concussion to specific helmet used then even a rough correlation can’t be made. Even such a study couldn’t control for force/vector of impact.

I’m in the camp of helmets can’t hurt, but are certainly not revolutionizing cycling (or skiing). Maybe widespread use of wavecel will correlate to a drastic change to general statistics - that would be welcome. Just doubt it. Higher speed collisions with vehicles and obstacles that result in death are often due to blunt force trauma to head or chest that even wavecel isn’t likely to address. If ultimate head safety is the goal, a motor sports helmet is the way to go. Most of us would not wear a motor sports helmet for cycling due to heat and weight - so some degree of compromise is endorsed for comfort/etc.

For competitive cycling better helmet tech probably returns rewards. For general cycling it isn’t helmets that revolutionize safety, as proved by high cycling participation in the Netherlands and very low use of helmets.

/This.

"can't hurt" - not for the individual, but it *could* hurt the use of a cycle as an everyday transport by subconsciously marketing the notion that cycling is somehow dangerous. Maybe *that* is part of why there are 40% cyclists in the NL and 2% in the US. Try to ignore the "cycling is done with a hgelmet" dogma for a second, and consider: Which other ordinary every-day things do we use special protective gear for? None?

[oldpotatoe]

/This.

"can't hurt" - not for the individual, but it *could* hurt the use of a cycle as an everyday transport by subconsciously marketing the notion that cycling is somehow dangerous. Maybe *that* is part of why there are 40% cyclists in the NL and 2% in the US. Try to ignore the "cycling is done with a helmet" dogma for a second, and consider: Which other ordinary every-day things do we use special protective gear for? None?

A small part. Our car-centric living design, implemented along with big auto and big oil, are way more responsible.

Car driving and seatbelt use is even 'mandatory'. Skiing....And NO, I don't recommend helmet laws for bike riders.

"Cycling changed forever"?? Not really..

[martl]

a seatbelt isnt really the same thing. one can not use any car any time because one didnt bring ones seatbelt.. part of advocating cycling as a transport is recognizing its strengths. absolute simplicity to use is an ofgen overlooked one.

[GScot]

I was an early adopter and missed the Trek Fest discount but found the Specter to be a good fit for my long oval head. The Boa closure does a good job of tightening around your head instead of just front to back squeezing that sometimes shows up with other systems. I tried with a cycling cap also and had no issues at least for a test.

I'm in Phoenix and it isn't anywhere near hot yet but I don't think it's going to be significantly hotter than other helmets. I'll find out soon enough. I have a hard time finding helmets that aren't too tight front to back so I'm thrilled that they managed to make this one fit.

[Mark McM]

/This.

"can't hurt" - not for the individual, but it *could* hurt the use of a cycle as an everyday transport by subconsciously marketing the notion that cycling is somehow dangerous. Maybe *that* is part of why there are 40% cyclists in the NL and 2% in the US. Try to ignore the "cycling is done with a hgelmet" dogma for a second, and consider: Which other ordinary every-day things do we use special protective gear for? None?

There's lot's of safety protective gear used daily by many people, such as air bags in cars, or elevator auto-stops (activates in case the cable breaks), or handrails on stairs. But these are typically built-in to the device/structure, and you are probably referring to personal protection devices that are worn. There's plenty of those types of things used in common sports, such as helmets and pads used for football, hockey, lacrosse, ski racing, baseball, or in common jobs, such as hard hats (helmets), steel toed shoes, goggles and eye protection, etc.

If you disregard sports and vocations and just consider daily chores and tasks, then you have things like rubber gloves (for caustic cleaning products), oven mitts, a variety of aprons and smocks, etc. Heck, even shoes, which protect the feet from hazards on the ground (rocks and thorns, etc.), are a type of protective equipment.

Let's face it, we all commonly use some type of wearable protective gear in order to prevent all kinds of injuries for everyday hazards.

[martl]

If you disregard sports and vocations and just consider daily chores and tasks, then you have things like rubber gloves (for caustic cleaning products), oven mitts, a variety of aprons and smocks, etc. Heck, even shoes, which protect the feet from hazards on the ground (rocks and thorns, etc.), are a type of protective equipment.

Let's face it, we all commonly use some type of wearable protective gear in order to prevent all kinds of injuries for everyday hazards.

The difference between an everyday chore and a sport: i do gear up for sports: Hey the next two hours i'll be running, playing ball, swimming, etc, so i gear up. I don't gear up for doing everyday-y stuff, its literally the very definition of "everyday chore": something i dont gear up for. Telling people thea need to gear up for cycling is removing it from the "everyday thing" category. simple as that. And that is a huge impact.

(btw: if i dont wear oven mittens for retrieving my pizza, i *will* get burnt. If i don't use eye protection when welding, i *will* go blind. 100%. If i dont use a hard hat on the site, my boss gets sued. If i ride my bike, i have down to the 4th digit after the dot the same chance of returning home safe with or without a helmet and no one is my boss.