smartwool vs. 100% merino etc.

[landshark_98]

For the wool experts: having read past threads and a lot of websites I'm left with this fundamental question: assuming quality construction all around, which do you prefer for jerseys and/or baselayers: smartwool products like Rapha and Boure or 100% merino like ibex and icebreaker or other blends like woolistic and Pearl Izumi wool/poly blend?

What say you?

Thanks,

Greg

[rpm]

For the past couple of seasons I've been using a heavy 50 wool/50 poly DeMarchi jacket. It's as warm as toast, washes and holds its shape well, and it doesn't make me all sweaty when the temperature goes up a little. It's the old style, with nylon wind material on the front and the top of the sleeves, but open elsewhere. It's way better than all the hi tech synthetic jackets.

[Ginger]

I have an opinion, and I'll share it in a minute. First...on wool (former sheep farmer/spinner/weaver)

Basic wool primer...
Wool is measured in microns. Last I checked there are at least 400 recognized wool-producing breeds of sheep. (And they do raise lots and lots of merino in New Zeland and Austrailia.) Generally, in the sheep industry it is accepted that if bred and raised correctly merino sheep generally are capable of producing the finest wool. And...if you have field ewes that are mostly merino...they can produce just as fine of wool as a purebred merino...but you can't qualify them as merino sheep. Same wool. Basically same sheep. Not merino.
For the most part though, purebred merino flocks consistantly produce the finest wool when taken as a whole.

(small historic tidbit...Merino sheep originated from the Castille region in Spain. They were so closely guarded that the penalty for exporting the animals was death. A flock of the animals was given to the king of France establishing the basis for the Ramboullet breed of sheep. Both Spainish and French Merinos were exported to Austrailia and New Zeland.)

"Smartwool" is a process that smooths/seals (I forget how that goes) the scales on the wool fiber that help it felt and cause woolen items to appear to shrink. That's why you can throw smartwool items into a washer, but it still isn't a good idea to shock it too much.

So my point there is merino IS wool. Same stuff. Difference being that they lable what breed sheep it came from. Smartwool is wool treated with a process rather than a different kind of wool...so you can have merino smartwool...(which is what Icebreaker does I believe...)

Scratchy actually has to do quite a bit with the number of ends sticking out of the yarn and the length of the fiber. Given the same micron wool: a wool that was harvested a little more casually with more second cuts will turn out a scratchier yarn than a carefully shorn wool. Scratchy can also be caused by the wool getting shocked in processing...basically frying it with heat or chemicals in the process...sort of like when a woman's hair is overprocessed and strawlike.



All that said. I like the feel of: Spot Brand, Icebreaker, and Rapha wools.
I like the durability of the superfine Icebreaker underlayers and the Ibex and smartwool brand wools...but Ibex and Smartwool brand to me are a bit scratchier.

My Icebreaker skin, and Smartwool brand underlayers have been washed quite a bit and both brands have done quite nicely.

[Tailwinds]

All that said. I like the feel of: Spot Brand, Icebreaker, and Rapha wools.
I like the durability of the superfine Icebreaker underlayers and the Ibex and smartwool brand wools...but Ibex and Smartwool brand to me are a bit scratchier.

I LOVE Smartwool light- and midweight tops, gloves, beanies, caps, and neck gaiters... feels like cashmere to me imho.

I haven't tried these other brands, although I've been eyeing the Icebreaker stuff.

Oh, ladies, speaking of Rapha, I still haven't gotten a response to the emails I sent them re: women's jerseys.

[DRZRM]

I've been a huge Smartwool fan for years, in fact I'm sitting here in a long sleeved t-shirt of theirs right now. Around the end of the summer I found a bunch of Ice Breaker stuff on clearance at REI (50% off rack) and got 3 or 4 shirts (light to mid weight) and I love both brands. You can dry the smartwool which I like, you are supposed to not machine dry the Ice Breaker, but most of mine have gotten into the dryer at some point of other (lazy laundry habits) several times by accident, and seems no worse for wear (they did not shrink notably). I have a few poly-wool blend pieces, but they have a tendency of smelling (due to the poly), so I generally stick with 100% wool, I've had several of my SW tops for years, and they get worn all the time in winter, and they feel as comfortable as the day I got them. With a Descente Shelter jacket, and a few layers of wool, I can get through most of the winder here in Boston.

[landshark_98]

Wow Ginger; thanks for the tutorial, and thanks all for the testimonials. I just realized that that Rapha uses "sportwool" not "smartwool" as I indicated in my original post. Too many similar names and blends!

[Ginger]

Oh, ladies, speaking of Rapha, I still haven't gotten a response to the emails I sent them re: women's jerseys.
Oh! I did...I didn't pass it on...let me dig that thread up. :) Basically...they're working on it...

[BdaGhisallo]

I must concur on the Icebreaker base layers. The Skin200 and the Bodyfit260 baselayers are lovely! You can't go wrong with them.

[fffastfreddie]

I been a long time lurker on this fantastic forum, but have felt not worthy enough to contribute. Finally a thread where I can hopefully impart a little knowledge I have.

Firstly Ginger's analogy of a wool fibre is a great description. And yes there is wool and then there is wool. The premium quality - Merino wool that is produced in Australia and New Zealand are very similar with some feeling NZ produce's a slightly better quality i.e Finer micron count.

Interestingly enough most of the wool produced down under is sent to South Korea to be spun as they are world leaders in this field.

Now the difficulty comes in identifying what you are actually buying! At the end of the day very few companies market their micron count unless you are buying a high quality suit.

The problem is chemicals! Many, many die houses use chemicals to treat a fabric to get a desired outcome. Wool is inherently itchy and unless it is a very fine micron, chemicals are added to the wool to give it a more pleasant handle.

Another way of achieving this is by mixed composition fabrics. Smartwool and Sportwool are examples of this. Sportwool is a brand licence developed by the Australia Wool Board. Their most popular product is a mixed comp 50% Wool 50% Acrylic fabric. Trying to get the best of both worlds - non itch with natural breathing mosture management properties. I believe this is what is used by Rapha but stand to be corrected. The positive with this is chemicals will eventually wash out - not completely though. The negative is this combo if not done correctly will have amongst others, elastication property issues.

With regards to what you original asked, this can be a little difficult to the end consumer. Thanks to the marketing departments of most organisations, what to pay for and what you get may be different. There are fantastic man made fibres out there but I'm a bit old school 100% natural is still pretty hard to beat. Like Carbon v Steel.

I think its best to find a specific product you like and ask those you have used it, their thoughts.

Generally Icebreaker is doing a good job. Eschler textiles who supply Assos produces some good product.

[Graeme]

As a Kiwi who spent many vacations as a kid on a sheep station in the south of New Zealand I'm most impressed with the knowledge of things merino here. The finer merino wool generally all comes from NZ rather than Aussie. One up to us! Growing up wearing wool you get quickly used to the srcatchy feel and toughen up. I still prefer on a colder ride to wear a fine merino underlayer over any synthetic bike gear. Warmer when wet and cheaper than high end synthetics that really don't perform any better.

On a related note check out the merino sheep shearing on a drifting iceberg off the coast of the South Island. Shrek spent the first years of his life as a hermit in the high country before being made a celebrity. Seems he's still at it. The red check shirt the shearer is wearing is pure rough wool and known as a Swandri. Real shirts for real men. You should feel that stuff scratch

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10412944

[Steelhead]

I love Smartwool socks. I love my DeFeet wool knee warmers - next on my list are the DeFeet wool arm warmers but I have to wear out the PI's first.

I am surprised that Smartwool does not make arm and knee warmers.

[pdonk]

Ill put a plug in for my favourite socks made from mohair

http://www.thermohair.com/

I al also fond of the defeet woolie boolies

My knowledge of wool comes from my mother who is a knitter and designer. Itchiness is also a factor of how "clean" the wool is. In many instances when it is combed it only combed once or twice to align the fibres and this does not remove the larger guard hairs.

[bironi]

I am very happy with my zippered t-necks and short sleeve wool jersey from Ibex, and even happier with my old Swobo wool jerseys. A buddy has one of Swobo's new wool jerseys, and is happy with it. I like Smartwool socks, but who doesn't? :beer: And it has been stated many times before, wool does not stink.

[Ginger]

WOW Fffastfreddie! Thanks for the information!

Graeme, I wasn't going to get into the who had the softer merino between NZ and the Aussies...I thought it might spark a campy/shimano type debate... :cool:

pdonk, when they really get into it, each sheep has different coarsness of wool on different parts of their bodies. This is more noticiable on some sheep than others, say, the down breeds (I've only sorted and spun one merino fleece, so I can't speak to that breed....but if I remember correctly, they don't have much if any kemp, a bit coarser wool on their back legs, but that's about it). A well sorted fleece shouldn't have any kemp in it at all.
When you spin a fiber, you can spin a woolen or a worsted yarn. In a woolen yarn, the yarn is processed with less concern about the direction of the fiber so more ends stick out of the yarn. The worsted process the wool is combed several times to get the fibers all pointing in one direction, the fibers are aligned in the yarn and the yarn is smoother...and less itchy...

You can spin a rug wool sheep's (coarse wool, more like hair than wool) yarn in a worsted manner and it's very wearable.


Blade shorn...I've done that...it takes me a long long time...It amazes me that there are shearers that can blade shear a sheep in what...3 minutes?

[fffastfreddie]

Thanks Ginger! It seems there is mutual admiration as you certainly know your stuff.

With regards to sheep shearing, I think that is probably the hardest job in the world.... not kidding! Don't know how those guys do it.

Out of interest I remember reading some time ago that the finest wool in fact is not Merino but Alpaca :D . Apparently there is a breed that produces a seriously low micron count. Can't remeber the figure for the moment.... maybe someone here knows?

[BdaGhisallo]

Now I am certainly no wool expert but I believe the alpaca you speak of comes from the alpaca animal.

See what Wiki says about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpaca

[Birddog]

Smartwool is Merino wool that has been processed.

https://www.smartwool.com/default.cfm

And what about those rabbits, Angorra? aren't they supposed to have super fine fibers like Alpaca's?

Birddog

[Ginger]

Alpacas are cuter and smarter than sheep too...lucky them.

Angora rabbit fur has very little crimp, it also can have abundance of guard hairs...I'm not sure of the micron count...it isn't very durable...and that's where the rub is with really fine micron fibers, durability...but I have made some very VERY warm almost water proof wooly hats and mittens by knitting and slightly felting an outter shell out of in the grease wool and lining it with pure angora...interesting thing about bunny, if you shear it off it gives the fiber a blunt end that tends to work it's way out of the yarn. (hence shedding angora sweaters) if you pluck it, which means combing the rabbit until it hits it's natural shed cycle and harvesting the wool then; the fibers have two tapered ends and stay in the yarn better...but it is very labor intensive (I had around 15 English Angora rabbits at one point...)
Mmmmm you want soft...bunny is soft.

Cashmere is the from the wooly undercoat of a particular type of goat...

Mohair is a coarse fiber from...you guessed it...a mohair goat. People wear mohair...but I don't know why. Unless it's baby mohair it's coarse, shiney...and scratchy...but that's just me.


Oh...and before anyone suggests it...I've spun dog undercoat for someone before...yeah...it's fine and soft...and I don't care what you do when you get it wet it stinks like a wet dog...that's *all* you'd need after a long sweaty ride.

[Birddog]

American Buffalo yarn.
http://www.americanbuffaloproducts.com/

Maybe they'll introduce some bar wrap and a saddle made of buffalo hide, to be followed by a jersey.

Birddog

[plumbsew]

Patagonia capilene works well as a base layer. Comes in a couple of different weights based on activity level.

[DRZRM]

Capilene is comfy, but try wearing it for a long day, or for two days in a row (god forbid) and the benefits of wool really come out. As gross as it may sound, if you are someplace cold w/o a washing machine, bring a few wool tops (or leggings) to rotate while they dry, and nobody will be the wiser. Capilene, that stuff picks up and holds onto a stink. The other thing is that after a few months of use, it starts to smell permanently funky, a few years tops (really one season of hard use), I have smartwool shirts I bought in grad school in the mid 90s that come out of the dryer like new.

I know this potentially outs me as pretty gross, but on the whole I do wash my stuff quite regularly, I promise. I really like wool for the comfort.

ZRM

[Steelhead]

Patagonia capilene works well as a base layer. Comes in a couple of different weights based on activity level.

Patagonia get particularly stinky because they do not use silver in their processing due to it's environmental hazard, and silver is the compound that most synthetics rely on to keep the stink factor somewhat at bay. Imagine hanging around a base camp with a bunch of gearhead Patagoniacs after riding 7 days in the Rockies.......yikes!

[Steve-O]

A little feedback on Capilene... Last year Patagonia introduced "Wool" Capilene in parallel with their synthetic products. The product is very nice and comes in varying weights....

The man-made Capilene can now be recycled which means if the stuff is too old and stinky you can drop it off at any Patagonia retailer and it will be re-processed. Making polyester based products is certainly not environmentally friendly thus this is a pretty cool way to lessen the impact of your underwear :)

[catulle]

Rapha wool is plain excellent. It blows my mind each time I wear it. Too bad that they have changed the cut of the new Merino tops and have made them smaller.