OT: Contract... or simply ethical responsibility

[cmbicycles]

My family has been taking taekwando at the local Ymca. It was a family class when we began 2+ years ago and my kids decided they would like to follow thru to black belt, about a 3-4 year program. We have been taken classes, buying uniforms and equipment, and paying for belt tests as we progressed. We just invested in sparring gear for everyone after we were told in December that we were grandfathered in to be able to finish at the Y.
Now the Y has decided that it is a "youth only" sport and you cannot continue past beginner belts so I am no longer eligible to do it with my kids at the Y nor are they eligible to continue. We can go to the local school and continue for 4× the cost... but that isnt in our budget. My question is whether the Y have an obligation to allow us to finish the program we signed on to. Since they prescribed a result (black belt) by following this plan of action, and accepted money for this over the last 2 years, and we were tokd we coukd continue in December, do they have a legal obligation to see it finished? I reason there is at least an ethical obligation. I could talk to a lawyer if I was that inclined, but not going that far at the moment... anyone with similar experiences? Was there a sense of contract by accepting payment all along for a prescribed course of action?

The athletic director I spoke with said that because they renew the class roster every few months there is no contract. I likened it to going to a college as a "bicycle science" major and then right before your senior year they tell you they no longer offer that program. Wouldn't the school have an obligation to those who enrolled to see it thru, even if discontinuing that program for future students.
On the one hand my kids aren't acting too bummed that they can't continue, but on the other I enjoyed doing this with them and I wanted them to be able to reach the goal they set for themselves. Flip side is they may not have control over everything in life and need to learn to make the best of it. Just ranting and rambling some thoughts.

[Chris]

I did Taekwondo in high school in the 80's and after a bad crash, returned to finish getting the black belt that I didn't get as a teenager. Bucket list thing I guess. I went back at 46 and will be testing here in a couple of weeks. Having done so, I found that it definitely is a kids oriented sport these days, but plenty of adults continue to practice or, as you, train with their families. Kudos to you for doing it.

A couple of questions for you. What style of Taekwondo is it? ITF or WT? I wouldn't expect ATA to be taught at the Y, but maybe. Secondly, black belts (in WT) are awarded by instructors, not organizations like the Y. Is the instructor also teaching at this local school that is so much more per month?

Unfortunately, the sport has progressed over the last 30 years to where much of the teaching is done in McDojos and it has turned into a money making scheme. Also unfortunately, since it seems they have changed the curriculum, I would doubt that the more advanced techniques that you would need for more advanced belts would not be taught during your classes.

Sorry this is happening to you. That's a lot of work to see washed away.

[likebikes]

you should go down there with your mad taekwando skills and give them a piece of your mind

[prototoast]

I'm not a lawyer, but...

If you had paid for the full thing up front, you'd probably have a claim to get your money back.

No court is going to force them to restart an adult taekwando program.

No court would have them repay you for the gear you bought, since you are still fully capable of using that gear in any other taekwando program.

This is an unfortunate situation for you, but it's hard to see the "contract" extending any further than whatever you have paid for at the moment.

[Jaybee]

I think this is a "can't always get what you want" learning moment for you and your kids.

Seems ****ty, but unclear how they would be legally obligated to continue the program.

[54ny77]

What would Chuck Norris do?

:D

[ultraman6970]

I was thinking exactly the same.

What would Chuck Norris do?

:D

[weaponsgrade]

I'd keep politely pushing up the chain and in writing. I once signed up online for some kid swim classes. Website listed a certain number of lessons at the time I signed up. Things were going fine until one day I showed up and they said the lessons were over. Turned out they cut the number of lessons but didn't bother updating the website. The director said there was nothing she could do: the computer system wasn't set up to process prorated refunds, other sessions are all full, etc. Later that day the website was updated. I downloaded a screenshot from the Internet Archive showing what I had signed up for and included that in a written complaint to her boss. A few days later I got a call that a spot in another session had opened up and she'd be happy to let me take the balance of whatever I signed up for.

[oldpotatoe]

Can I have an 'OT'??

Amen brothers and sisters..:)

[OtayBW]

Unfortunately, it's business and 'ethical responsibility' is not necessary part of the equation. Holding them accountable for lack of ethics will be a tough row to hoe. But GL if you can get something worked out.

[MattTuck]

Unfortunately, it's business and 'ethical responsibility' is not necessary part of the equation. Holding them accountable for lack of ethics will be a tough row to hoe. But GL if you can get something worked out.

I studied TKD when I was younger, up until I left for college. While I appreciate (and greatly benefited) from the belt system of advancement, I have come to question its value, and see it more as a tool for the commercialization of martial arts.

[Bradford]

I studied TKD when I was younger, up until I left for college. While I appreciate (and greatly benefited) from the belt system of advancement, I have come to question its value, and see it more as a tool for the commercialization of martial arts.

My kids are in it now and my son is a few months away from his black belt. I agree with you, it does seem like a tool for commercialization of the martial arts and there are kids who have made it to black belt who, in my opinion, are not fit enough to have achieved that level. It seems like if you pay and show up, you are promoted on schedule.

That being said, it has been great for both of my kids. My son takes it very seriously and is progressing at a standard that is admirable. My daughter, who has trouble focusing in almost everything in her life, is focused and disciplined in class.

It seems to me that there are too types of students in their classes and both are progressed along without delay. The first type is doing everything they can according to the principles taught to them; the second is skating by and taking the progression without earning it. I'm happy my kids are doing it right, as are most of the kids in the class, and I've learned to just ignore the ones who are skating by and not worrying about what they are doing.

As for the OP, I think what they did is pretty crappy, but I can't see a legal obligation unless you signed a contract.

[yngpunk]

What would Chuck Norris do?

:D

Chuck Norris practiced Tang Soo Do, not Tae Kwon Do :)

Probably better to ask what what Kwai Chang Caine, would do :banana:

[yngpunk]

Unfortunately, it's business and 'ethical responsibility' is not necessary part of the equation. Holding them accountable for lack of ethics will be a tough row to hoe. But GL if you can get something worked out.

Let's not forget that the YMCA is a non-profit organization and their decision to not offer adult TKD classes probably stems from lack of adult enrollment in the classes vs. not being "ethical" or for financial gain.

[yngpunk]

My family has been taking taekwando at the local Ymca. It was a family class when we began 2+ years ago and my kids decided they would like to follow thru to black belt, about a 3-4 year program. We have been taken classes, buying uniforms and equipment, and paying for belt tests as we progressed. We just invested in sparring gear for everyone after we were told in December that we were grandfathered in to be able to finish at the Y.
Now the Y has decided that it is a "youth only" sport and you cannot continue past beginner belts so I am no longer eligible to do it with my kids at the Y nor are they eligible to continue. We can go to the local school and continue for 4× the cost... but that isnt in our budget. My question is whether the Y have an obligation to allow us to finish the program we signed on to. Since they prescribed a result (black belt) by following this plan of action, and accepted money for this over the last 2 years, and we were tokd we coukd continue in December, do they have a legal obligation to see it finished? I reason there is at least an ethical obligation. I could talk to a lawyer if I was that inclined, but not going that far at the moment... anyone with similar experiences? Was there a sense of contract by accepting payment all along for a prescribed course of action?

The athletic director I spoke with said that because they renew the class roster every few months there is no contract. I likened it to going to a college as a "bicycle science" major and then right before your senior year they tell you they no longer offer that program. Wouldn't the school have an obligation to those who enrolled to see it thru, even if discontinuing that program for future students.
On the one hand my kids aren't acting too bummed that they can't continue, but on the other I enjoyed doing this with them and I wanted them to be able to reach the goal they set for themselves. Flip side is they may not have control over everything in life and need to learn to make the best of it. Just ranting and rambling some thoughts.

Have you looked at other community based programs, such as community college or the local parks and recreation department? Looks like Richmond, VA Parks and Recreation department offers 2 classes/week for those 7 and older for $35/month for residents and $55/month for non-residents. Might also see if the local university/college club (if there is one) lets the community members join in practice.

[cmg]

Chuck Norris practiced Tang Soo Do, not Tae Kwon Do :)

Probably better to ask what what Kwai Chang Caine, would do :banana:

Didn't Caine at the end of every episode walk on down the road, sometimes playing a flute? do the same, on to the next.............episode.

[yngpunk]

Didn't Caine at the end of every episode walk on down the road, sometimes playing a flute? do the same, on to the next.............episode.

Yes, probably as an allusion to the punishment of Cain (to wander) from the book of Genesis...

[Red Tornado]

I think this is a "can't always get what you want" learning moment for you and your kids.

Seems ****ty, but unclear how they would be legally obligated to continue the program.

Agreed. Very unfortunate, though. Hope you & the kids can find an alternative to finish the program.

My youngest son took TKD. Started in elementary school. IIRC they called the type they taught "Combat Hapkido". Took kids to tournaments pretty regular. The kiddo made it all the way to brown belt, then took a break for youth football and never went back. Ball sports & cycling took over, with cycling getting dropped once he hit 9th grade. He has a belt display with the last two spots empty......

[OtayBW]

Let's not forget that the YMCA is a non-profit organization and their decision to not offer adult TKD classes probably stems from lack of adult enrollment in the classes vs. not being "ethical" or for financial gain.
Sure. To the OP's and your point, he's wondering (my interpretation) whether they did the 'right/ethical' thing or was it just business, and I guess did they have some contractual obligation. Either way, it's unfortunately not an easily-resolvable issue.

[Chris]

My kids are in it now and my son is a few months away from his black belt. I agree with you, it does seem like a tool for commercialization of the martial arts and there are kids who have made it to black belt who, in my opinion, are not fit enough to have achieved that level. It seems like if you pay and show up, you are promoted on schedule.

That being said, it has been great for both of my kids. My son takes it very seriously and is progressing at a standard that is admirable. My daughter, who has trouble focusing in almost everything in her life, is focused and disciplined in class.

It seems to me that there are too types of students in their classes and both are progressed along without delay. The first type is doing everything they can according to the principles taught to them; the second is skating by and taking the progression without earning it. I'm happy my kids are doing it right, as are most of the kids in the class, and I've learned to just ignore the ones who are skating by and not worrying about what they are doing.

As for the OP, I think what they did is pretty crappy, but I can't see a legal obligation unless you signed a contract.

The pass even though you aren't ready aspect that I returned to in the martial arts is very disappointing. I suppose most of the schools feel that if they hurt a kid's feelings or worse, their parents' then they might lose the business. That's pretty sad.

[cmbicycles]

A couple of questions for you. What style of Taekwondo is it? ITF or WT? I wouldn't expect ATA to be taught at the Y, but maybe. Secondly, black belts (in WT) are awarded by instructors, not organizations like the Y. Is the instructor also teaching at this local school that is so much more per month?


It is taught by instructors from a local TKD school. They have a few local studios where the tests are taken and belts awarded. Our instructor at the Y is 4th (almost 5th) degree black belt. The grandmaster has a few 9th degree belts (Kukkiwon, Pro TKD, Kum-Do... so I would guess ours is WT) but he doesn't teach at the Y programs, though is usually present at belt tests.

you should go down there with your mad taekwando skills and give them a piece of your mind

Unfortunately, they taught us to practice discipline and respect rather than simply opening a can of whoopus.

Let's not forget that the YMCA is a non-profit organization and their decision to not offer adult TKD classes probably stems from lack of adult enrollment in the classes vs. not being "ethical" or for financial gain.

The class has had adults and children in the same class. The class size will go from 25 down to about 8 once the age and belt restrictions take effect so it isn't financially motivated as they lose more than they gain.

Sure. To the OP's and your point, he's wondering (my interpretation) whether they did the 'right/ethical' thing or was it just business, and I guess did they have some contractual obligation. Either way, it's unfortunately not an easily-resolvable issue.

It is likely driven by insurance or other decisions that they have not disclosed, they just said they are trying to make all the Y's identical in what they offer throughout the region and our class is out of compliance with that direction. I am slowly working my way up the chain of command (recent changing of the guard). Ours is not the only family affected by this change.

I do agree that it seems like students advance having not earned it first. At our last test where we earned our red belt, the current red belts were testing to move up while we watched. Many of the kids could not perform the forms and combinations, and they were required to break a small board which some could not do either. I wouldn't let me kids move on if I didn't think they were ready, but it does seem some move along regardless. I am glad my kids are fine with stopping. We have looked into local parks/rec options so that is a possibility if they want to pursue another martial art style.

[MattTuck]

I miss the days when you'd find your local Japanese neighbor, and you could be trained in the martial arts for the small price of waxing his car, and painting his fence.


What I meant to say in my earlier post, was that these belts are not transferable credits at a university. Try to find another school or instructor that is in it for the right reasons and fits with what you want to get out of it for yourself and kids.

[fignon's barber]

OP, the first things you learn in a true Taekwondo program are the tenets of taekwondo ( courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self control, and indomitable spirit). Act in accordance and move on.

[taz-t]

I'm not a lawyer, but...

If you had paid for the full thing up front, you'd probably have a claim to get your money back.

No court is going to force them to restart an adult taekwando program.

No court would have them repay you for the gear you bought, since you are still fully capable of using that gear in any other taekwando program.

This is an unfortunate situation for you, but it's hard to see the "contract" extending any further than whatever you have paid for at the moment.

No opinion on the OP's issue with the YMCA, but above comment is an incorrect statement of contract law.

There can be expectation damages beyond the non-breaching party's payment and there can also be reimbursement damages based on reliance on the breaching party's promise to perform (i.e. a court could award more than just the amount the one party 'paid' and they can also award reimbursement costs if the first party spent additional money because of the contract).

[Polyglot]

I personally find it is in very poor taste to push your "rights" when dealing with a non-profit that does so much good, especially when you realize that the price you have been paying is only a fraction of the going rate.

[CunegoFan]

You should have taken Rex Kwon Do. If the classes were cancelled then you would have still ended up with some sweet pants.

[Fivethumbs]

If you were not bound to continue until you got your black belt, it's likely the Y was not bound either.

[peanutgallery]

It's the YMCA, when it gets in the weeds most nonprofits are amateur hour. They're equipped with people passionate for their mission as pay is terrible (except for the CEO) and may have folks serving in roles they're not always equipped/trained for. The reason is $. You do the best you can with what you've got. Makes for some tough decisions

[spinarelli]

https://youtu.be/7t8xwpW8gJQ