View Full Version : Video footage 'value'
kookmyers
03-14-2019, 12:24 PM
I really don't want to fully go into details about what I experienced on my ride home yesterday. In the end, everyone is safe. I am writing to ask the forum what you would do with video evidence of an incident that does not clearly show all of what happened. I ride with a front and rear Cycliq camera and i have a clear video of the license plate, make, and model but the video does not represent the gravity of the situation from the viewpoint of an exposed road user (me). Part of me feels i need a third camera on my helmet to capture my POV. For my evening commute home in the dark, I use a helmet mounted bike light to see where i look.
I realize that i could try to talk to the police, and that i could try to have them watch the lengthy video. The best outcome from that is that the driver is contacted by the police and spoken to about his behavior. I am afraid to have it come to that because i forecast that if this person sees me again, the aggression will continue. Actually, I am afraid that even with inaction on my part that the aggression will continue if he sees me again.
I found a website that focused on road issues in San Francisco, and found an article and comments very interesting. Are the cameras pointless? I only use them for incidents...not performance or memory logging. The comments below (between the lines) were copied from that web page. The carriage returns and bullets separate comments from different users.
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Video evidence should be admissible for cyclists to press Assault charges against motorists. (District Attorneys can offer 1-year suspended driver's license as a plea bargain.)
Video evidence is admissible now, if the recording was by a third party. So for instance in the Le Moullac case, video evidence from a store CCTV was used. The legal problem is more when one of the parties to a dispute introduces their own evidence. First there is the risk of "bias by omission" - if it is my tape then I present it if it helps my case but destroy it if it helps your case. Second, and worse, it is not difficult these days to tamper with video and audio files with a low risk it will be detected.
I don't know how one tampers a video file that does not show assault to one that does. One can remove provocation or retaliation, but not add an actual assault where there was none. That's just stupid!
Well, I could remove the parts of a video file that show me behaving badly, and leave the part showing you behaving badly. It would be hard to show something that didn't happen but it would be easy to suppress something that did. I believe that asymmetric issue is why it's hard to get recordings admitted at trial.
Any evidence you show of me 'behaving badly' (sic) should be enough to convict me of bad behavior. For example, if you throw a rock at me. I pick up the rock and throw it back at you, then my actions are enough to convict. The fact that you threw the rock first is not mitigation for my actions - the proper response is always to report to the authorities, not vigilantism. Defensive actions are very distinct and obvious from aggressive ones - it is impossible to manipulate a defensive action to show aggression. Any way, if I am so worried about being wrongfully accused then I should get my own camera. This conservative notion of disallowing obvious evidence is wrong and only emboldens the criminal.
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Make copies of the video.
Contact the police and a lawyer.
The video will show a pattern of behavior in case it happens again.
MattTuck
03-14-2019, 12:28 PM
Have you checked on the close call database?
Seems worthwhile, given the situation.
tctyres
03-14-2019, 12:29 PM
Make copies of the video.
Contact the police and a lawyer.
The video will show a pattern of behavior in case it happens again.
Contact a lawyer first. https://www.bikelaw.com/ can put you in touch with lawyers in your area who specialize in bicycles.
bigbill
03-14-2019, 12:49 PM
At my last location, I showed gopro footage to the police for an incident on the local rail-trail. They spoke with the person and made it clear that a pattern had been established on his behavior. That ended it, the guy went out of his way to avoid me. If people understand there's evidence on their behavior, they tend to change their behavior. I'd go ahead and report it and not worry about repercussions. If he did it once, he'll do it again unless he gets called on the action.
KarlC
03-14-2019, 12:54 PM
These guys have a San Diego location .....
https://www.ebcyclinglaw.com/
.
AngryScientist
03-14-2019, 01:04 PM
c'mon guys. he doesnt need a lawyer in this situation IMO. No one got hurt.
I say yes, go tell the police you want to file an incident report.
most police reports are he-said, she-said anyway. file a report of aggressive driving or whatever the police advise you to call it, along with the drivers vehicle type and plate number, so at least there is a record. that's what i would do.
chiasticon
03-14-2019, 01:04 PM
I realize that i could try to talk to the police, and that i could try to have them watch the lengthy video. The best outcome from that is that the driver is contacted by the police and spoken to about his behavior. I am afraid to have it come to that because i forecast that if this person sees me again, the aggression will continue. Actually, I am afraid that even with inaction on my part that the aggression will continue if he sees me again.the prior situation is preferable; then he knows you've got a camera, and that the cops have documented proof of how he behaves. less likely to do it again.
Please provide an overview of the incident. Did the driver verbally or physically assault you? Did they try to intimidate you with their vehicle?
kookmyers
03-14-2019, 01:33 PM
Thank you all for the advice. I apologize if i my story is confusing in that many of the responses point to a lawyer. This is unnecessary.
I looked into the close call database and submitted a request to register. Surprising to me is that the email response was not immediate and it is not in my spam folder.
When i go to the San Diego Police website there is a section for submitting a report. When i answer the questions, it tells me i need to call.
Its hard to convey more information. He followed me around, yelling at me, exited his vehicle a couple of times, and threw his vehicle's cigarette lighter at me. One can deduce with this aggressive behavior that it was red hot when it left his hand. His behavior had me on the sidewalk when i could be but there was quite a bit of road that offered me zero protection. (not that a sidewalk is safe).
kookmyers
03-14-2019, 01:34 PM
Can we focus on the part of the thread that talks about using video in a lawsuit. Would our bike and or helmet mounted videos not be admissible under current law?
bcroslin
03-14-2019, 01:42 PM
Make copies of the video.
Contact the police and a lawyer.
The video will show a pattern of behavior in case it happens again.
This but no lawyer. A police report shows a pattern for future incidents from the perp. Sometimes the police listen and are willing to file a report and sometimes they're not. Sounds like on this one, they'd want to file a report.
This but no lawyer. A police report shows a pattern for future incidents from the perp. Sometimes the police listen and are willing to file a report and sometimes they're not. Sounds like on this one, they'd want to file a report.
+1 Definitely report it to the police and make sure the officer you contact logs the discussion and files an incident report.
mt2u77
03-14-2019, 01:58 PM
Not a comment on your specific case, but I disagree with the last bullet point.
"Defensive actions are very distinct and obvious from aggressive ones - it is impossible to manipulate a defensive action to show aggression."
This is not true. A calculated offensive action in the face of a threat is sometimes the best way to defend yourself. As a stand alone action (e.g. an edited/clipped video) it may look very much like an aggression.
Not a lawyer, but I would think having continuous video from before, during, and after the altercation would help.
R3awak3n
03-14-2019, 01:58 PM
I agree. file a report.
What provoked him so much? Just that you were on the road?
The problem with people like this is that eventually they might actually blow up and hurt someone. Throwing **** at you is not ok, no matter what happened before.
tctyres
03-14-2019, 02:15 PM
c'mon guys. he doesnt need a lawyer in this situation IMO. No one got hurt.
I say yes, go tell the police you want to file an incident report.
most police reports are he-said, she-said anyway. file a report of aggressive driving or whatever the police advise you to call it, along with the drivers vehicle type and plate number, so at least there is a record. that's what i would do.
You need a lawyer whenever you want to protect yourself or your property and the law may be fuzzy. For an incident like this, the most a lawyer would charge you is an hour. Likely, they would just tell you what to do when dealing with the police. I got coached by a lawyer who didn't want my case because there was no money in it. He helped me a ton in dealing with the police and getting them to change what they were doing.
Just because no one is hurt doesn't mean that no one isn't going to get hurt or their won't be property damage.
Angry nailed it. From what we know of the incident there is no reason to contact a lawyer. If there is more to the story and you fear that the driver is also going to police to file a report concerning your behavior it might then be wise to call Saul for advice. I'd only advise taking that step if he has reason to claim that you physically assaulted him or damaged his vehicle in some way.
tctyres
03-15-2019, 07:56 AM
Angry nailed it. From what we know of the incident there is no reason to contact a lawyer. If there is more to the story and you fear that the driver is also going to police to file a report concerning your behavior it might then be wise to call Saul for advice. I'd only advise taking that step if he has reason to claim that you physically assaulted him or damaged his vehicle in some way.
Naah. Not for me. If you have footage that you plan to show to a police officer, you need to be sure that it cannot be used against you. I don't trust NYC cops. Other municipalities are different, for sure.
That said, OP asked for free advice; and he got it.. He can decide where to take it.
Please report this, I was recently involved in an altercation (can't give details due to ongoing criminal case) and multiple individuals approached me in the weeks following to relay incidents involving the same individual. You can tell the police what happened and provide video evidence, they may not charge him, but as others have said, this becomes part of a pattern.
You don't know what else this person has been accused of, involved in, etc. Your report may help LE do something about a violent person, but you won't know unless you bring this information forward. Years ago, my office was broken into and a few things stolen, including a broken laptop. I thought about not bothering to report because there was nothing to be gained, but the cop who came out found a soda bottle that the thief had grabbed from the fridge and drank from. There were fingerprints all over it, which he was able to get without any CSI-like stuff. He explained that likely nothing would happen, but that eventually, someone that stupid was going to get arrested and fingerprinted and they would have evidence to use against them.
-Ari
bcroslin
03-15-2019, 08:38 AM
Totally agree with Ari. There was a jerk here harassing cyclists every time he saw them and turned out the cops knew about him from other incidents. He was reported to law enforcement several times and there was plenty of video evidence. I was told someone in law enforcement finally spoke to him to let him know he was playing with fire since there were several criminal defense attorneys and even a state's prosecutor on the rides he was messing with. Magically, he disappeared.
unterhausen
03-15-2019, 10:47 AM
we had a similar thing, guy harassing cyclists. Turns out he lives next door to one of the LBS owners father. Who later took a picture of 5 cop cars parked outside the neighbor's house.
From what I hear from police, motorists are constantly calling the cops about cyclists. I have to say that as far as criminal behavior from motorists goes, I have experienced that many more times than I have called the police. It's just not worth it most of the time. But hearing that the complaints from motorists has an effect on police behavior makes me think we should turn this ratio around. Cycling is literally the only thing that has brought violent people into my life. If someone threw something at me, I would be on 911 right away.
kookmyers
03-15-2019, 02:26 PM
Just to close this out, I called the San Diego Police department to file a report. I was told I was not able to file and to call in the moment if there is a next time. She asked if he made contact with me or brandished a weapon. I answered no then looped back to answer that his vehicle is a weapon. I was still not able to file a complaint.
HenryA
03-15-2019, 02:50 PM
He threw his lighter at you? And in CA that’s not assault? Call the PD again but try to find a supervisor who will listen to you. But better yet and first, if you are serious about this, please do call a lawyer for advice on the laws where you live.
The comments (from others?) you posted in the OP are simply bizarre and without any merit whatsoever.
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