Oh, Richard!

[Gothard]

Well, I am the happy new owner of a Richard Sachs.
The frame will be going straight to Joe Bell (whom I just hung up the phone with), for a refinish.
My plan is:
-Cold set to 130mm rear spacing
-braze a pair of eyelets on the rear dropouts to complement the ones on the seatstays
-repaint...

Now the questions to the collective wisdom of the board:

What color? All original, or any color RS was offering at the time the frame was made? I have mailed the Mother Ship to ask what was available at the time (single color, panels, 2 colors, etc...).

What group? I am open to anything, back in time to the first generation of indexed stuff that really works. Suntour, Shimano, Campy, you name it.

I will use this frame exactly as much as all the other bikes I have, and cherish it for what it is, a fine example of a great craft, from one of the best ever.

Please shoot the suggestions. One picture of the frame as is now is here.

[Gothard]

Doh.... Picture:

[Kevan]

it's found its color. Simply renew.

[gt6267a]

i will second kevan's thought. keep the color but add creme panels and modern effects.

[swoop]

atmo knows.

[atmo]

atmo knows.
swoop gets it atmo.

[Kevan]

that Larry gets it.

[atmo]

that Larry gets it.
larry is having what is referred to as safe sex atmo.

[Kevan]

larry is having what is referred to as safe sex atmo.

anyway you can play the gam. Adda boy Larry!

[swoop]

nice lugs.

[Steve Hampsten]

Why change the spacing?

I'm with the others - keep the color or something similar. The world needs more brown bikes.

[atmo]

Why change the spacing?

deconstruction is very fashionable atmo.

I'm with the others - keep the color or something similar. The world needs more brown bikes.
that's not brown, it's bahama mama taupe atmo.

[1centaur]

That a frame with such a hideous color could exist on this planet AND get support from the bleachers shows that...(swallows bile)...taste is a very personal thing.

Add cream panels and then keep going until all that remains of the former color scheme, which we will call, "dish water," is a tiny brown ring that you can point at when showing your frame to friends and say, "the whole thing used to be that color!"

[atmo]

That a frame with such a hideous color<snip>


we just lost half of the bahamas atmo.

[swoop]

warm grey is what we call a sophistimicated colour. it takes a little love to get it initially.. but once you do... it's a thing. kind of pervy.

there's some dudes that get it. but they are weird.

i gotta make more dough and have a sachs crit bike .... then i'll be happy.

[Gothard]

Why change the spacing?

I'm with the others - keep the color or something similar. The world needs more brown bikes.

The spacing because I do (need) want 8 gears at least seeing I ride in the mountains, and 8 is a good minimum with a bailout granny and a bomb down top.

As to the bahama mama, well, I am thinking white or off-white panels at the least, if the Mother Ship can confirm that it was available at the time. Atmo?

[atmo]

i gotta make more dough and have a sachs crit bike .... then i'll be happy.
will trade labor for direction atmo.

[atmo]

As to the bahama mama, well, I am thinking white or off-white panels at the least, if the Mother Ship can confirm that it was available at the time. Atmo?
there were no paneled frames that early 'ceptin the
toga team (http://new.photos.yahoo.com/bobbesrs/album/576460762315866724/photo/294928803115834653/5) frames of alphabet city fame atmo.

[Gothard]

So only the head tube was available in white then? I am referring to the frame #18 that is elsewhere on this board.

[atmo]

So only the head tube was available in white then? I am referring to the frame #18 that is elsewhere on this board.
there were no paint panels done back in 1978 atmo.
that frame #18 was a repaint.

[Kevan]

A second set of waterbottle bosses. I appreciate this is a period piece, but is this a no-no? Or can't be done?

[1centaur]

Well I guess if it can't be authentic then you'll just have to settle for...good.

More seriously, that older picture suggests that black sections actually make the brown look like cafe au lait. A shades of coffee theme might actually look really sharp, and then your friends can compliment your creativity while you preserve more authenticity than the cream panel idea.

[Climb01742]

since you asked...the original color hurts my eyes. please repaint it. make it yours. IMO, what makes a sachs a sachs is how it's made, designed, gestalted...not how it's painted. you won't hurt it's soul. but dang, you'll improve it's chance of getting a date. :beer:

[atmo]

since you asked...the original color hurts my eyes. please repaint it. make it yours. IMO, what makes a sachs a sachs is how it's made, designed, gestalted...not how it's painted. you won't hurt it's soul. but dang, you'll improve it's chance of getting a date. :beer:
pal climb is right. zmatta' fact the gestalt stuff
way came later. yours is a PG assembly atmo.

[steelrider]

Whatever color she ends up, that is a nice ride. Go with Campy.

[dirtdigger88]

pal climb is right. zmatta' fact the gestalt stuff
way came later. yours is a PG assembly atmo.

ouch . . . suddenly the bike doesnt look like such a deal . . . .




:D

Jason

[yeehawfactor]

deconstruction is very fashionable atmo.

Clearly this text contests Gramsian signifiers

http://www.ws.appstate.edu/POMONONSENSE.php

[taz-t]

Gothard -

I've got the same dilemma... my advice? take inspiration from GeeSawa or e-Richie's old is new again cross frame... that's my plan if i ever get around to it...

- taz

[Peter P.]

Since you asked for a color which may have been from the same era as that frame, I can suggest the color of the Richard Sachs I bought in 1979. I believe the color was #41 or 42 DuPont Imron Red. The color numbers are probably vastly different now, but it was a solid red, quite different from the red Sachs most are familiar with now. I called it a blood red, but it was between that and a tomato red. Maybe Richard could cross reference it for you.

If I have to send you a photo of the bike, then you better commit to the color! I also remember during those years seeing some RS bikes in black, dark metallic blue, and a very dark purple-so dark it too, was almost black.

All were a single color.

[obtuse]

no offence;

but its a hurting old frame that's probably mostly spent out anyway. paint it how you'd like and build it up consummate with the amount of money you paid for it which i hope was not much.....

early atmo, pre-e-richie whatever you want to call it.....it's a mediocre production frame from a time and place before the master was the master imho bro.....to my eye the brown looks fine.

obtuse

[djg]

Three things: 1) Cool find, I hope you enjoy it; 2) This is a personal preference thing, and the preference that matters is yours, not mine; 3) Caramel machiatto isn't really coffee, and it's not much of a paint job either, unless you like it, in which case it's dandy.

[Louis]

Since you asked for opinions, here are some ideas:

1) I wouldn't worry about "period correct" paint schemes. Paint it whatever color(s) turn you on. If you need ideas try auto-body paint shops and look at color chips. I ended up buying the PPG Radiance II catalog section. That's pretty cool (but probably not what you're looking for for this frame).

2) IMO the current color would be far down the list of desirable options. A cream head tube and a red or green "rest of the bike" would be nice.

Enjoy choosing.

Louis

[Samster]

i recommend gios blue with yellow accents. very swedish.

[Gothard]

Thank you for the opinions (and useless humor).
As of now I am torn between redoing it all original, but with the downtube labels, as a tribute to its time, which I think will look fine when done,
or do a period rendition of the blue and white panel scheme that is on The Man's site, but with the correct period styled logos and labels.
As for the group, I do have a few alloy campy 10sp parts that would do well.
OR, anyone has a vintage 8sp Suntour Superbe group with 175 or longer cranks they don't need?

[14max]

since you asked...the original color hurts my eyes. please repaint it. make it yours. IMO, what makes a sachs a sachs is how it's made, designed, gestalted...not how it's painted. you won't hurt it's soul. but dang, you'll improve it's chance of getting a date. :beer:
Climb gets it...

[14max]

Thank you for the opinions (and useless humor).
As of now I am torn between redoing it all original, but with the downtube labels, as a tribute to its time, which I think will look fine when done,
or do a period rendition of the blue and white panel scheme that is on The Man's site, but with the correct period styled logos and labels.
As for the group, I do have a few alloy campy 10sp parts that would do well.
OR, anyone has a vintage 8sp Suntour Superbe group with 175 or longer cranks they don't need?
Gothard - Make it yours, man. None of us will see it everyday but YOU will. Go for the blue...

[Archibald]

Gothard - Don't let these guys, or even atmo's apparent dismissal of it, screw with your head. The frame has as much value, perhaps even more, than the current one's. It's represents a piece of history. A time in a builder's career when "imperfection" was the rule instead of just a snappy slogan. Think of it as a step in the staircase a builder used to get from one level to the next. Each step is as important as the one in front of it or the one after it.

Were I you, and if the current finish is not the original paint, I'd have it repainted to its original state. If it is the original paint, I'd leave it, warts and all. All of us looked different in '78. While we may be slightly embarrassed at our fashion sense or hairstyles as we view them today, we were what we were. There's no soul in Photoshopping old pictures.

[atmo]

Gothard - Don't let these guys, or even atmo's apparent dismissal of it, screw with your head. The frame has as much value, perhaps even more, than the current one's. It's represents a piece of history. A time in a builder's career when "imperfection" was the rule instead of just a snappy slogan. Think of it as a step in the staircase a builder used to get from one level to the next. Each step is as important as the one in front of it or the one after it.
it's the journeyman not the destination atmo?

[Archibald]

it's the journeyman not the destination atmo?
atmo "gets it."

[atmo]

atmo "gets it."
bro i'm on life's tool path atmo
and there's no endmill in sight.

[Archibald]

bro i'm on life's tool path atmo
and there's no endmill in sight.
I'd suggest some G43 for you and some G04 along the way to smell the roses. Try to fit in as much G63 or G83 as you can and don't forget to G28.

[ClutchCargo]

larry is having what is referred to as safe sex atmo.

I don't think there's any such thing !

:p :D

[Climb01742]

Gothard - Don't let these guys, or even atmo's apparent dismissal of it, screw with your head. The frame has as much value, perhaps even more, than the current one's. It's represents a piece of history. A time in a builder's career when "imperfection" was the rule instead of just a snappy slogan. Think of it as a step in the staircase a builder used to get from one level to the next. Each step is as important as the one in front of it or the one after it.

Were I you, and if the current finish is not the original paint, I'd have it repainted to its original state. If it is the original paint, I'd leave it, warts and all. All of us looked different in '78. While we may be slightly embarrassed at our fashion sense or hairstyles as we view them today, we were what we were. There's no soul in Photoshopping old pictures.

but it's ok if_you_ "screw with (his) head"? not picking a fight, just pointing out an inconsistency in your logic.

[Gothard]

Again, Thank you to all who contributed their opinion.
I will restore the frame as it is way too ratty as is now.
That said, I am a bit sad that the useless banter has crippled what could have been a gathering of opinions on what should be done with an artifact that I (dream?) hope is interesting in the same way a herse or Toei is interesting.

Still I will share the end product, when I get to this one. There is first an Hors in the line.

[PanTerra]

Nothing inspires awe and turns more heads than a bike being painted in the plain brown wrapper color scheme. :rolleyes:

[Archibald]

but it's ok if_you_ "screw with (his) head"? not picking a fight, just pointing out an inconsistency in your logic.How am I screwing with his head? The guy bought a frame he was clearly enamored with, not just because it's an old frame, but because it's one of *Richard's* frames. Then folks infer or tell him outright it's just a worn out POS anyway as it was built before Atmo achieved gestault or *celebrity* status? Give me a break. That frame is one piece in a body of work. You don't piss on daVinci's sketch books just because he painted the Mona Lisa. Of course we're not talking about daVinci here, but you should be able to understand my point.

[catulle]

Paint it mola, atmo...

[swoop]

when is a frame not a frame, and instead a suicide note? if you squint and look at the rust spots (upside down) i swear you can see the lyrics for the door's "this is the end". e.r., don't do it man.

[atmo]

http://www.worldwatchonline.com/eddie.jpg

[Climb01742]

How am I screwing with his head? The guy bought a frame he was clearly enamored with, not just because it's an old frame, but because it's one of *Richard's* frames. Then folks infer or tell him outright it's just a worn out POS anyway as it was built before Atmo achieve gestault or *celebrity* status? Give me a break. That frame is one piece in a body of work. You don't piss on daVinci's sketch books just because he painted the Mona Lisa. Of course we're not talking about daVinci here, but you should be able to understand my point.

george asked for people's opinions. most were honest without being harsh. you characterized these opinion's as "screwing with his head". then you gave your opinion. how are other opinions different from yours? i understand your point, but i don't understand your characterization of other people's opinions as "screwing with his head". george asked for opinions. i'm not picking a fight but i think your comment about screwing with his head is unfair.

[catulle]

george asked for people's opinions. most were honest without being harsh. you characterized these opinion's as "screwing with his head". then you gave your opinion. how are other opinions different from yours? i understand your point, but i don't understand your characterization of other people's opinions as "screwing with his head". george asked for opinions.


Just ignore him, Climb. He's looking for attention.

[Archibald]

george asked for people's opinions. most were honest without being harsh. you characterized these opinion's as "screwing with his head". then you gave your opinion. how are other opinions different from yours? i understand your point, but i don't understand your characterization of other people's opinions as "screwing with his head". george asked for opinions.
If you feel what I wrote doesn't apply to you, then why are you worried about it? That's a rhetorical question, btw.

[Erik.Lazdins]

I'm a fan of this project - this frame is from a period earlier in the journey, and that is how it should be treated. Celebrate the frame for what it is, a rideable example from 1978.

It's not the destination it's the journey that's important. Enjoy the ride.

Good luck in restoring this bike to your eye be it with the original color or another.

[manet]

the resuscitatirium project

[atmo]

the resuscitation project
eddie lives (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097262/) atmo

[Gothard]

My skin is thick, but this is too much.
Why would the frame be spent? Has anyone here actually inspected it?
Why is it ugly?
Why is this thread covered in useless banter and insider jokes (that I don't get)?
Why the heck do some guys fill an otherwise great forum with atmo, gestalt, planing and other useless crap and meaningless locutions?
Why would the actual *builder* of a frame dismiss it in public ? Should we disregard his early work (this is really beyond me)?
I'm out for a while.

[J.Greene]

The frame has as much value, perhaps even more, than the current one's. It's represents a piece of history. A time in a builder's career when "imperfection" was the rule instead of just a snappy slogan. Think of it as a step in the staircase a builder used to get from one level to the next. Each step is as important as the one in front of it or the one after it.


While I can't speak to the intrinsic value Archie implies I can tell you I sold a 78 Sachs like yours on ebay last month for $1400 plus shipping. That's pretty large coin for a worn out pos pre gestalt suicide trap from my buddy during his pre "at home I'm just Deb's husband" years. Of course it had a fresh Imron repaint in red(not sachs red) with period decals. Enjoy your bike, it is enjoyable atmo.

JG

[Climb01742]

My skin is thick, but this is too much.
Why would the frame be spent? Has anyone here actually inspected it?
Why is it ugly?
Why is this thread covered in useless banter and insider jokes (that I don't get)?
Why the heck do some guys fill an otherwise great forum with atmo, gestalt, planing and other useless crap and meaningless locutions?
Why would the actual *builder* of a frame dismiss it in public ? Should we disregard his early work (this is really beyond me)?
I'm out for a while.

george,
i hope that my comments did not cross the line.
i meant to comment on the paint, not the bike under it.
if i caused you any distress, i am very sorry.
please accept my sincere apologies.
climb

[Archibald]

My skin is thick, but this is too much.
Why would the frame be spent? Has anyone here actually inspected it?
Why is it ugly?
Why is this thread covered in useless banter and insider jokes (that I don't get)?
Why the heck do some guys fill an otherwise great forum with atmo, gestalt, planing and other useless crap and meaningless locutions?
Why would the actual *builder* of a frame dismiss it in public ? Should we disregard his early work (this is really beyond me)?
I'm out for a while.
Dude, I apologize for my own contribution to your angst. I think it is a cool frame and a frame well worth preserving and enjoying. I have a growing collection of frames from builders who's work I admire(d) and it is their earlier or earliest works that I tend to gravitate to, the spark of what got them started, so I understand where you're coming from.

[obtuse]

My skin is thick, but this is too much.
Why would the frame be spent? Has anyone here actually inspected it?
Why is it ugly?
Why is this thread covered in useless banter and insider jokes (that I don't get)?
Why the heck do some guys fill an otherwise great forum with atmo, gestalt, planing and other useless crap and meaningless locutions?
Why would the actual *builder* of a frame dismiss it in public ? Should we disregard his early work (this is really beyond me)?
I'm out for a while.

gotthard-
first of all...you asked. so here goes....

why would the frame be spent?
because the frame is thirty years old and appears heavily used.

has anyone here inspected it?
no. but the pictures and the age imply as much.

why is it ugly?
i don't think it is; but it could have to do with the fact that it's old and beat up.

why the heck do some guys fill an otherwise great forum with atmo, gestalt, planing and other useless crap and meaningless locutions?
got me there. i just told you what i thought.

Why would the actual *builder* of a frame dismiss it in public ? Should we disregard his early work (this is really beyond me)?
i can't speak for the builder; but i think it goes back to it being an old beat up bike. it has no intrinsic value. it never won any great races as far as we know. it doesn't represent any fruition of an intensity of design accomlished; it represents no important example of the development of the builder's craft, nor does it represent the pinnacle of any art or skillset. it may have represented all of these things when it was new; but it doesn't anymore. the important question is, do you like it?

enjoy it for what it is; but do not be dissappointed when others hold subjective opinions that differ.

[Julia Hampsten]

seeing the beauty in an old production-style frame is cool

beige is inexplicably sexy

attco

[atmo]

my 2 cents (as long as i am on the freaking phone...




"Why would the actual *builder* of a frame dismiss it in public?"


Should we disregard his early work (this is really beyond me)?
i can't speak for the builder; but i think it goes back to it being an old beat up bike. it has no intrinsic value. it never won any great races as far as we know. it doesn't represent any fruition of an intensity of design accomlished; it represents no important example of the development of the builder's craft, nor does it represent the pinnacle of any art or skillset. it may have represented all of these things when it was new; but it doesn't anymore. the important question is, do you like it?


some text from a pm -

...fwiw, if you were my client and had a 1978 frame, and asked all these questions, my reply would be:
1) Add NO braze-ons to this, and take NONE off.
2) Do NOT rework the frame for modern parts.
3) In 1978 there was NO such thing as A) a standard paint scheme or color, and B) contrasting paint panels were not yet offered to the public.
4) And as I have said forever when asked about the issue: how frames I made in 1978 (when I had only 5 years and several hundred frames under my belt) survived through to the present is, well - it's beyond me.

i can post this if needed. thanks -
e-RICHIE

[fiamme red]

why would the frame be spent?
because the frame is thirty years old and appears heavily used.

has anyone here inspected it?
no. but the pictures and the age imply as much.Unless a steel frame has visible cracks (which I don't see in the photo of this Sachs), I don't know what it means for it to be "spent."

[Louis]

Much of the world economy is based on maximizing consumption now, not recycling older products. Any industry would prefer consumers buy new products rather than used. I do believe they make more money that way...

[atmo]

i see a thread drift comin' atmo
Much of the world economy is based on maximizing consumption now, not recycling older products. Any industry would prefer consumers buy new products rather than used. I do believe they make more money that way...

while this may be true, the issue is not about always
buying new but often about buying old and expecting
new. well, i hope that makes sense.

[big shanty]

I've got a bag of vintage RS headtube decals if you need some dude.

[oldguy00]

my 2 cents (as long as i am on the freaking phone...



some text from a pm -

...fwiw, if you were my client and had a 1978 frame, and asked all these questions, my reply would be:
1) Add NO braze-ons to this, and take NONE off.
2) Do NOT rework the frame for modern parts.
3) In 1978 there was NO such thing as A) a standard paint scheme or color, and B) contrasting paint panels were not yet offered to the public.
4) And as I have said forever when asked about the issue: how frames I made in 1978 (when I had only 5 years and several hundred frames under my belt) survived through to the present is, well - it's beyond me.

i can post this if needed. thanks -
e-RICHIE


Just my .02......its refreshing to see you post a real answer in a thread, rather than the cryptic forum bs, like 'gestault', 'so and so gets it', atmo....blah blah...that so many post on this forum.
In this thread, I think Gothard is the only one who 'gets it'....

[barry1021]

One man's ceiling is another man's floor. As far as MY opinion on the subject, I will adhere to my favorite proverb:

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

B21 and sachsless

[CNY rider]

I"m looking at the cool kids sitting in the corner................and making my way over to Gothard's table. :beer:

[djg]

It's hard for me to imagine that my crack about the color counted for much, but to the extent it diminished your pleasure in your find, well, I'm sorry about that. As I said, if the bike seems sound, then it seems to me a cool find independent of the question how much it might or might not resemble what could be commissioned from RS today. I don't see anything wrong with the period restoration hobby for those who enjoy it, although it has never been my bag. Given the comments from the builder, I'd be hesitant to lavish large sums of money on restoring the bike, but (a) what the heck--go ahead and have it stripped and repainted a color you like (there's the light blue bike on the web page, as well as the familiar red, but it's all up to you) and (b) it's your dime and your project and you should make of it whatever floats your boat. I'm guessing that you'll enjoy the thing if you get it in order, and I hope you do.

[atmo]

Just my .02......its refreshing to see you post a real answer in a thread, rather than the cryptic forum bs, like 'gestault', 'so and so gets it', atmo....blah blah...that so many post on this forum.
In this thread, I think Gothard is the only one who 'gets it'....
for the record, the real answer is also the one i gave when i was
asked about this privately, so why it all escalated is - again -
beyond me.

and as far as real answers go, i think these replies all teeter
around being folks' off-hours quips to real life issues that are,
in the scheme of thing, trivial. sure, if you spend a dollar and
something gets you all emo-ed out, it's understandable that
you'd read into every word, phrase, and line break, but the fact
of the matter is that this is a community and the amount of
information sharing as well as magnaminity (sp) is unrivaled any
place else online atmo.
(and yes i post when i am on the phone geesawa...)

[Grant McLean]

for the record, the real answer is also the one i gave when i was
asked about this privately, so why it all escalated is - again -
beyond me.

and as far as real answers go, i think these replies all teeter
around being folks' off-hours quips to real life issues that are,
in the scheme of thing, trivial. sure, if you spend a dollar and
something gets you all emo-ed out, it's understandable that
you'd read into every word, phrase, and line break, but the fact
of the matter is that this is a community and the amount of
information sharing as well as magnaminity (sp) is unrivaled any
place else online atmo.
(and yes i post when i am on the phone geesawa...)


It can be frustrating to want "real" answers to any question posted
here, and they usually come. But those who contribute to the majority
of those real answers also enjoy a good turn of phrase, or thread
jumping between posts. I guess if you don't read everything here,
or check out the so called 'cryptic' links, you don't understand some
of the jokes. But they are funny if you're here.

(yes, Sensei, i post while on the phone too...)

[Serpico]

.
I heard those frames have awesome dropouts :cool:
.

[roman meal]

It can be frustrating to want "real" answers to any question posted
here, and they usually come. But those who contribute to the majority
of those real answers also enjoy a good turn of phrase, or thread
jumping between posts. I guess if you don't read everything here,
or check out the so called 'cryptic' links, you don't understand some
of the jokes. But they are funny if you're here.

(yes, Sensei, i post while on the phone too...)


It would be easier if the forum served beer, and maybe a small bowl of nuts.

[manet]

...
Why is it ugly?
...

on a bike frame, dimples are ugly.

[catulle]

Gothard,

In summary, I'd say some people think you ought to leave it as it is, you ought to restore it with the color scheme it presently has, you ought to paint it like the new RS models, you ought to paint it however strikes your fancy. Sometimes democracy can be a problem.

Also, in my opinion, with a great deal of candor and humbleness, the builder of the frame has told you that the frame is old and that he didn't have then the experience he has now building frames, almost thirty years after. In other words, be careful as that frame might not be what you would expect from a new one. I think that's honest and good advice.

For all of the above, I think you do have an interesting piece of American bicycles history, and now it is up to you to go back to the first paragraph and decide what to do. Relax, sometimes things can get a little tumultuous when it comes to opinions and so on, but I'm sure everyone means well. After all, you know what they say about opinions.

Take good care.

[big shanty]

4) And as I have said forever when asked about the issue: how frames I made in 1978 (when I had only 5 years and several hundred frames under my belt) survived through to the present is, well - it's beyond me.

Several members of "The Next Wave" have surely built fewer than several hundred frames. Should I be discouraged from buying from them on account of this??

[atmo]

4) And as I have said forever when asked about the issue: how frames I made in 1978 (when I had only 5 years and several hundred frames under my belt) survived through to the present is, well - it's beyond me.

Several members of "The Next Wave" have surely built fewer than several hundred frames. Should I be discouraged from buying from them on account of this??
the following is not directed at anyone in particular:

no not at all -
each, on his own terms, can reflect on his skill set
and knowledge base in 30 years and make comments
about what he brought to the table in his early years.
i know what i knew then, and i am open about it,
as i was then. regardless, frames were ordered and
delivered in those early years as if it had been going
on for generations. but as i write on the frame listserve
when this very issue is discussed: you don't know what
you don't know, and for a person to feel that he gets it
so early on says more about the person than whether
he really gets it atmo.

[Archibald]

4) And as I have said forever when asked about the issue: how frames I made in 1978 (when I had only 5 years and several hundred frames under my belt) survived through to the present is, well - it's beyond me.

Several members of "The Next Wave" have surely built fewer than several hundred frames. Should I be discouraged from buying from them on account of this??
That, is a *very* good question and I'm *sure* atmo's reply will also be very good.

[J.Greene]

I can't belive this conversation has followed me over here also. :beer: If this forum "gets it" then that is proof of it's inteligence and civility over other boards.

JG

the following is not directed at anyone in particular:

no not at all -
each, on his own terms, can reflect on his skill set
and knowledge base in 30 years and make comments
about what he brought to the table in his early years.
i know what i knew then, and i am open about it,
as i was then. regardless, frames were ordered and
delivered in those early years as if it had been going
on for generations. but as i write on the frame listserve
when this very issue is discussed: you don't know what
you don't know, and for a person to feel that he gets it
so early on says more about the person than whether
he really gets it atmo.

[nick0137]

At the risk of prolonging a discussion that Gothard might prefer to let die, I confess to being interested in the (contradictory) points that are hiding just below the surface.

(1) The builder bloke says he does a far better job now than he did then. I hope any professional (and bike building ought surely be respected as a profession as ancient as the law and medicine, and maybe even more than "the oldest profession") would say the same. If we are not better than we were then, well what have we been doing all these years? Just taking the cash and not learning anything? Surely not? So, maybe newer is better....

(2) Most modern consumer products are better than their predecessors. A modern car (hell, any modern car) is better, objectively viewed, than my unreliable, noisy, smelly, uncomfortable, fuel spitting 1967 Elan. So maybe newer is better.....

(3) But, that Elan sure is fun. More fun than even my twin-turbo Subaru rice burner that serves as the every day driver. And it's more fun because it's unreliable, noisy, smelly and uncomfortable. So, maybe newer isn't better....

And that, it seems to me, is the key. If, despite its (objectively viewed) "shortcomings", Gothard gets a kick out of the frame, then it still serves its purpose. And very well at that. What more can you expect?

[J.Greene]

Also, in my opinion, with a great deal of candor and humbleness, the builder of the frame has told you that the frame is old and that he didn't have then the experience he has now building frames, almost thirty years after. In other words, be careful as that frame might not be what you would expect from a new one. I think that's honest and good advice.



I'd like to put into perspective that there are thousands of 70's paramounts, puegeots and raleigh's etc that really are just bike boom junk still on the streets. It's not uncommon to look in a bb and see no evidence of filler or even much mitering going on. Even some of those italian bikes were a pos if you think that at a minimum the seat tube should be fully brazed to the bb. This mocha sachs is better than many of the other bikes of the day atmo.

JG

[catulle]

I'd like to put into perspective that there are thousands of 70's paramounts, puegeots and raleigh's etc that really are just bike boom junk still on the streets. It's not uncommon to look in a bb and see no evidence of filler or even much mitering going on. Even some of those italian bikes were a pos if you think that at a minimum the seat tube should be fully brazed to the bb. This mocha sachs is better than many of the other bikes of the day atmo.

JG

I agree.

[davids]

It would be easier if the forum served beer, and maybe a small bowl of nuts.
I prefer sacks.

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1618099/2/istockphoto_1618099_beer_and_nuts.jpg

[OldDog]

I've never cared for brown frames. Must go back to the days when I slapped together Varsity's, Continentals and Collegents. I truely did not like the dogshet brown shade they came in, with the brown plastic tape.

You got a cool old frame there. Once determined that it is not rusted from the inside out and looks to be a solid rider, build it up with some components and ride it a bit before you decide what you really wish to do with it. Why spend much $$ if you have not determined you really like the ride first? If you have done that and I missed it in this thread, I'm sorry for again bringing it up. Have fun with it.

[tad3]

I regularly ride a Sachs 25th Anniversary bike (absolutely best ride I have ever had in almost 52 years of riding bicycles), but I also frequently ride a 1975 RS (serial # 225, the 22nd frame under his own name) that is a great ride, too. The paint is beat (by the way, single color black acrylic by Sonny Braun, according to Richie), but I wouldn't change it; I enjoy it the way it is.
Tom Donahue
Melbourne, FL

[mosca]

I think browns/beiges can be tricky, i.e. it's a fine line between beautiful and baby****. This Kirk works for me - I like the cream accent panels and the tones really complement each other. My 2 cents...

[catulle]

I think browns/beiges can be tricky, i.e. it's a fine line between beautiful and baby****. This Kirk works for me - I like the cream accent panels and the tones really complement each other. My 2 cents...


That frame looks like it'd fit me just fine...!! Looks like a million bucks, too.

[swoop]

are we talking about a bike frame that isn't under a 130lb dude and is most likely gonna be rode easy and smooth and not pushed to the limit (?).. and will be looked at and embued with love rather than thrown into turn 4 at 40 miles an hour with the hope that yu clear the cones and can keep it up for the next 250 meters.

find your happy space... do what feels good.. and find a way to make it something you can't take your eyes off.

i can tell you what i would do with it. i would pay as little as possible.. put on all the lovely bits i've got laying around... and enjoy riding it to coffee and beer and the like. because that paint is what it is.. and you can't fake it or recreate it. thousands of lab rats died making those bad decisions and life is too short to not love something for being what it is. even if it's fugly. because fugly is the new black. and cool is never cool.

[harlond]

are we talking about a bike frame that isn't under a 130lb dude and is most likely gonna be rode easy and smooth and not pushed to the limit (?).. and will be looked at and embued with love rather than thrown into turn 4 at 40 miles an hour with the hope that yu clear the cones and can keep it up for the next 250 meters.
As I understand ATMO's comments, all he is saying is that his current level of skill and knowledge vastly exceed his 1978 level. He is not saying that his 1978 level of skill and knowledge was in any way inadequate for the production of sturdy, reliable bike frames. Nor has he identified anything specific about the design or construction of the 1978 frames that makes them unsafe or unreliable. Accordingly, is there any reason to believe this frame could not stand up to the hard riding you suggest it should not receive, assuming an informed inspection reveals the frame to be in good condition?

[atmo]

As I understand ATMO's comments, all he is saying is that his current level of skill and knowledge vastly exceed his 1978 level. He is not saying that his 1978 level of skill and knowledge was in any way inadequate for the production of sturdy, reliable bike frames. Nor has he identified anything specific about the design or construction of the 1978 frames that makes them unsafe or unreliable. Accordingly, is there any reason to believe this frame could not stand up to the hard riding you suggest it should not receive, assuming an informed inspection reveals the frame to be in good condition?

frames (of mine) older than the one at issue were used at
the world championships on several occasions prior to the
build date on #2145. that is not the point. it's never been
implied that the old ones were time bombs or the like, but
i do think my reply to louis:

while this may be true, the issue is not about always
buying new but often about buying old and expecting
new. well, i hope that makes sense.

is what's misconstrued, and i think/hope that my reply
to noah:

each, on his own terms, can reflect on his skill set
and knowledge base in 30 years and make comments
about what he brought to the table in his early years.
i know what i knew then, and i am open about it,
as i was then. regardless, frames were ordered and
delivered in those early years as if it had been going
on for generations. but as i write on the frame listserve
when this very issue is discussed: you don't know what
you don't know, and for a person to feel that he gets it
so early on says more about the person than whether
he really gets it atmo.

is the best i can do to explain away the confusion atmo.

[Dekonick]

It is an interesting piece of history you have there...

I would listen to the master and not alter it. That frame would make one awesome fixee - talk about a conversation piece at the local coffee shop!

Nice find - and I like it no matter what the others say (aside from the color)

:)

[swoop]

harl... and i day this with all kinds of love.. you are not feeling me. that's not where i'm coming from. it aint about the frame... it's about the guy, the love and the the bike.
something about print makes things seem far too concrete.. and things get read and conclusions get got.. but meaning gets overlooked.


it aint nuthin but a thing.

enjoy!

[fiamme red]

harl... and i day this with all kinds of love.. you are not feeling me. that's not where i'm coming from. it aint about the frame... it's about the guy, the love and the the bike.
something about print makes things seem far too concrete.. and things get read and conclusions get got.. but meaning gets overlooked.


it aint nuthin but a thing.

enjoy!Somehow, this sort of thread always degenerates into nonsense.

[Big Dan]

I like the frame. Some nice Campagnolo NR parts, Turbo saddle, Cinelli bars and 6 sp tubulars.....

:)

[Serpico]

.
now at post #96
.

[Climb01742]

it's winter.

[Gothard]

OK,
Now that I have cooled off and exchanged a few PMs behind the scenes, I hope I can summarize:

-I do not know how worn/bad/rusted the frame is, but based on the pictures I have, it has a very good base below the much discussed and diseased paint.

-I do not expect it to be like new nor a reflection of The Man's top drawer production as of today. It will be a reflection of its time, much like my Colnago Master Ti, my Legend and my coming Hors cat.

-I will have it set to 130mm rear spacing because I want to use it without fighting with friction shifters and 5 cogs that would not be enough where I live. For the same reason it will not be a fixie. I want the frame to deliver what it can with no parasite imput from possibly less than good coponents. No other mods to the frame will be performed. My fastest days may be behind me, but my best days are somewhere ahead, on any 2-wheeled contraption.

-I will likely repaint it as was originally, no matter what it was. JB will determine if the color is original and if it is, then it'll stay that way. Beauty is not in a color, but in the craft lavished in building and painting the frame.

-What bugged me, (and still does), is the off-topic banter, when I was hoping to find encouregement and opinions/guidance on how to proceed. All of you are entitled your *well argmented* opinions. the useless "gets it" is just that, useless in my quest. I will not understand all your sous-entendus, for we are an ocean apart.

-Any misunderstanding that transpired between me and The Man is likely from different backgrounds (we *are* an ocean apart, remember). The air is clean for me with regards to all here.

-I will document the rebuild here as it happens, but it will take a while.
Best to all, George

PS. The seller is a very nice gentleman indeed, and I got an Ideale saddle and the original color coordinated Silca frame pump with it.

[big shanty]

snowed in

[OldDog]

I don't get it...what's this thread about?

[manet]

I don't get it...what's this thread about?

itsa bout a frame _ how it leaves small town new england,
gains experience in the ways of life with all its' smiles and
compost. it travels from a first loves' hands into the adult
world. lost, it is eventually found, lands in the alps, and
then is brutally questioned until finally getting it _ mocha.

[Kevan]

-What bugged me, (and still does), is the off-topic banter, when I was hoping to find encouregement and opinions/guidance on how to proceed. All of you are entitled your *well argmented* opinions. the useless "gets it" is just that, useless in my quest. I will not understand all your sous-entendus, for we are an ocean apart.

George,

My apologies for playing on your thread. To my own defense, I will say that I typically will bite my keyboard until some folk have offered solid advise before I join in for some silliness. I think everyone deserves a few straight answers. I think too you need to appreciate your audience here. We all see questions that have been asked before, always a bit different of course, and if we stayed the course this site would grow dang-quiet. I think everyone of us has asked a question of the others and have been left to pick-n-choose amongst the responses the info requested. The good thing about the silliness is it keeps your thread alive. People want the entertainment, they want to participate, and they might even share with you their 2 cents. You're not the first to be disappointed in our behavior and you won't be the last. It simply is what it is.

Again, I'm sorry.

Kevan

P.S. I don't get half the silly stuff either.

[Kevan]

.

[William]

http://www.npr.org/news/images/2005/oct/21/reuters/geese200.jpg


Goth,

You have a find. One you are excited about and that's cool. Do what makes you happy and enjoy. Let us see the final finish...then get out there and ride the crap out of it. :cool:



William

[atmo]

George,

I think everyone deserves a few straight answers.

i'll go public too, and primarily because i don't see
where this went awry. i only posted to george here
once, and that was about there being no paint panels
back in 1978. all my other opinions were in reply to
others' opinions that had already veered from the
original point. that is normal; that's why it's called
a thread. and the fact that it gets playful is a direct
result of the time of the post (lunch, on the phone,
etcetera...), or due to those who post to each other.
we all know each other's buttons and we enjoy pushing
them once in a while. if not, this place would turn into
the house of lords right quick atmo.

so - for the record, i replied to pm's and emails about
this frame succinctly and in a timely way before this
thread went live (i don't save my sentmail, so i hope
george is nodding his head in the affirmative). and
i continued to field questions about this frame as the
thread unfolded. and i also initiated the pm's with
george wrt this here thread once in got off track, if
only to let him know what was on my mind.

separately from this text, i stand by my various thread
drifts about getting it and how long it takes some of us
to, in fact get it. it comes with the territory.

frame 2145 is a nice frame made in an era when i had hair,
raced full time, drove a saab wagon with 3 on the column,
and got more tail that sinatra. the hair is now thin, i race for
fun these days, and the saab has returned to the jet cemetary
in the sky. but, like frank, i still do it my way.

consider frame 2145 my summer of '42. fade to black atmo.

[obtuse]

hopefully everyone gets it now.

obtuse

[Archibald]

hopefully everyone gets it now.

obtuse
Yeah baby! Group hug!
http://www.duckywaddles.com/ProdImages/rcrumb.jpg

[manet]

.

[roman meal]

consider frame 2145 my summer of '42. fade to black atmo.

"Richie’s teenage summer of fun becomes a bittersweet lesson in love when he falls for a young war bride in a seaside Connecticut town. Funny, wistful and romantic, SUMMER OF ’42 will bring you back to that innocent age of 1940s swing, when friends met at the local soda fountain, the Andrews Sisters played on every radio, and the discovery of first love felt strange and wonderful. Relive the summer you’ll always remember with a mocha bicycle."

[Len J]

frame 2145 is a nice frame made in an era when i had hair,
.

& we all would have "got it".

LOL

Len