ENVE advising LBSs to not support open tubular tires

[adrien]

Anyone else hear from their LBS on not using open tubular tires on carbon rims? It appears that Enve has seen early failure based on sidewall cuts, and these may be dangerous.

I've been using Open Corsas for years on Enves, with no issues, albeit at relatively high pressures and I change them on the early side. That said, I don't think it's worth the risk. Their message is below:



Based on reports from the field that tires with cotton, silk, or other natural fiber sidewalls with open tubular style of construction were degrading quicker than expected, we launched a study to understand the validity and prevalence of these claims. As a result of this investigation, we confirmed that tires using natural sidewall materials with an open tubular type construction, are not fit for use with ENVE carbon rims. It is important to note that through this study, we reached out to many dealers as well as other wheel manufacturers to see if their consumers are having the same results as ours. The response was an unequivocal confirmation that these tires were fatiguing prematurely and in some cases resulting in crashes and injury to the rider when the tire sidewall failed or the tire came off the rim without warning.
There are two specific failure modes that have been documented and are not limited to ENVE rims, rather these failures have been consistent in our test lab on a variety of other manufacture’s rims, both alloy and carbon.
The first failure is best defined as a cut or wearing through of the natural fibers on the sidewall of the tire at or near the rim’s hook bead. Once cut through, the tube extrudes through the tear and bursts, often unseating the tire from the rim resulting in sudden loss of control and a crash. The cutting of the sidewall is the result of soft fibers (the cotton or similar textile) being abraded by the harder edge of the rim during the rotational compression cycles of wheel and tire.
The second failure mode is that of the tire itself stretching off the rim. This is can be caused by a variety of factors, among them, low bead stiffness, varying tire diameters, over inflation, or some combo of the three. The tires most susceptible to this failure are those with a “handmade open tubular” type construction. Given the large selection of tires on the market that deliver excellent performance with reliability, it is our recommendation that ENVE customers should not pair these tires with their ENVE wheelsets.
Here are some specific brand/tire models that we DO NOT recommend:
Vittoria Corsa Non-Tubeless (Not ALL Vittoria Tires) – This tire features cotton sidewalls in black, para (tan), and anthracite (gray). This tire has been described to us by Vittoria as a race day only type of tire and that it is not recommended for training or prolonged use. This tire has been the main offender for cut sidewalls. While this one tire is not recommended for use with ENVE wheels, Vittoria’s Rubino model tires and the tubeless ready Corsa Speed have proven safe and reliable in our testing.
Challenge Handmade Clinchers – These are Open Tubular Non-Vulcanized Tires
Models: Criterium SC S, Strada SC S, Paris Roubaix SC S, Strada PRO, Paris Roubaix PRO, Elite PRO

[EDS]

Is there a difference between a clincher tire (non-tubeless) and an open tubular, or just different name for the same thing?

[ultraman6970]

I never seen an open tubular but at least in concept and pictures to me they look exactly the same than any other clincher.

It is interesting what enve says tho...

[harblhat]

Is there a difference between a clincher tire (non-tubeless) and an open tubular, or just different name for the same thing?

The manufacturers will tell you that open tubulars are tubulars that haven't been sewn together. Instead they attach clincher beads to the edges. The casing and tread manufacturing techniques are therefore the same, leading to a supposedly more supple tire.

[nicrump]

I've had/get far more fatal sidewall cuts on the last 3 iterations of Michelin PR2-4 than I ever have on my Vittoria opens. In fact I've had zero on my Vittoria's.

[kramnnim]

Is there a difference between a clincher tire (non-tubeless) and an open tubular, or just different name for the same thing?

Yes. Open tubulars are like a flat ribbon when not mounted, instead of a molded U shape.

[Spaghetti Legs]

An open tubular is made like a tubular, handmade AFAIK, except where a tublar is closed up to make, well, a tube, and open tubular is not closed and a bead is added. Most regular clinchers are vulcanized, which is some form of industrial press process. A Veloflex tire comes out of the package pancake flat as opposed to a regular clincher which already has a “tire” shape.

The only sidewall failure I’ve ever had was on a Conti GP4000 (no, not trying to start one of those discussions!) and I blew up a pair of Michelin Pro Races when I hit a pothole at 25+ mph.

[FlashUNC]

I applaud them for their public banishment of basically all Challenge tires from their rims.

[kramnnim]

I noticed this on a Veloflex Master I had on an Enve rim. Only a small section of the sidewall was cut at the rim bead/hook. I tend to run tires until the tread is completely worn through in multiple spots.

Zipp rims seem to have a much sharper hook...

[fignon's barber]

I think clinchers inflated to the low pressures that are en vogue , soft sidewalls, and carbon clinchers combined may possibly lead to this. By eliminating one or two of these 3 factors, you're pretty safe.

[Hindmost]

Yes. Open tubulars are like a flat ribbon when not mounted, instead of a molded U shape.

This would appear to be the key difference. A clincher has its approximate finished shape when it comes out of the mold. The thin casing of an open tubular has to stretch once mounted and inflated to assume the finished shape.

[ravdg316]

I noticed this on a Veloflex Master I had on an Enve rim. Only a small section of the sidewall was cut at the rim bead/hook. I tend to run tires until the tread is completely worn through in multiple spots.

Zipp rims seem to have a much sharper hook...

Veloflex themselves say not to use their tires on carbon rims.

[benb]

What benefit do these tires actually have anyway?

They definitely separate more money from your wallet but they seem to have the negatives of tubulars & clinchers combined. They've got tubular rolling resistance & repair difficulty. (worse than tubulars?) They've got you on the heavier clincher rims. And maybe they have a good ride?

The main thing I saw people drawn to these years ago was that they often had the highest maximum pressure ratings of anything you could buy that would go on a clincher rim back in the day when there were riders who thought the highest possible pressure was going to make them go faster. The people I knew who had them reserved them for a limited set of racing days as some sort of supposed benefit cause they didn't think they could afford tubulars for A races.

[R3awak3n]

What benefit do these tires actually have anyway?

They definitely separate more money from your wallet but they seem to have the negatives of tubulars & clinchers combined. They've got tubular rolling resistance & repair difficulty. (worse than tubulars?) They've got you on the heavier clincher rims. And maybe they have a good ride?

The main thing I saw people drawn to these years ago was that they often had the highest maximum pressure ratings of anything you could buy that would go on a clincher rim back in the day when there were riders who thought the highest possible pressure was going to make them go faster. The people I knew who had them reserved them for a limited set of racing days as some sort of supposed benefit cause they didn't think they could afford tubulars for A races.

Challenge I will never buy and same with veloflex so not going to comment on those but vittoria open tubulars are amazing.

The benefit is ride quality. The Corsa G+ is a super nice tire, rides amazing. I also never had a problem with that tire.

[joosttx]

I applaud them for their public banishment of basically all Challenge tires from their rims.

B-I-N-G-O. ... I was thinking the same thing

[ScottW]

Here are some specific brand/tire models that we DO NOT recommend:
Vittoria Corsa Non-Tubeless (Not ALL Vittoria Tires) – This tire features cotton sidewalls in black, para (tan), and anthracite (gray). This tire has been described to us by Vittoria as a race day only type of tire and that it is not recommended for training or prolonged use. This tire has been the main offender for cut sidewalls. While this one tire is not recommended for use with ENVE wheels, Vittoria’s Rubino model tires and the tubeless ready Corsa Speed have proven safe and reliable in our testing.


Would this include the popular Corsa G+ clinchers (not "speed" or "control") or is this only referring to older pre-G+ versions of Corsas? Because the typical marketing blurb for the Corsa G+ doesn't seem to suggest it's a "race day only" tire or "not recommended for prolonged use."
I was considering Corsa G+ for my next set to replace GP4KsII. Hadn't really given any second thought to it before reading this, but I'll be on alloys (HED Ardennes+ SL), not fancy carbon hoops.

[Lionel]

tubulars should be closed not open

[Mark McM]

The name "Open Tubular" is a rather nebulus description, as they are clearly clincher tires, and there are no common manufacturing methods used on "Open Tubulars" that are also used on all true tubulars. Enve specifies that the tires it is referring to are made with natural fiber casings (cotton or silk). Therefore, that includes other clincher tires such as Specialize Turbo Cotton, which are not called "Open Tubulars".

This part of the statement from Enve's announcement might be misworded:

As a result of this investigation, we confirmed that tires using natural sidewall materials with an open tubular type construction, are not fit for use with ENVE carbon rims.

Given that natural fiber casing tires appear to be safe to use on other wheels (including those with carbon rims), maybe it should instead say, "we confirmed that ENVE carbon rims are not fit for use with tires using natural sidewall materials with an open tubular type construction."

If Enve rims are dangerous to use with some tires that otherwise meet international safety standards, perhaps a recall of Enve rims should be considered.

[Tickdoc]

Am fine with vittoria corsa g’s on my enve’s, but no to veloflex on them. The veloflex bead does not seat well on my enve’s and I have had one ssplode on me in the middle of the night before. I thought a gun went off at 3 in the morning and was on high alert.

That being said, I still struggle with bead placement on any clincher on my enve rear wheel.

Still not sure what an open tubular is, though:confused:

[Nooch]

i feel like this is enve saying "oh hey, we may not catch every burr on our rims so be safe and don't use something that's somewhat more delicate -- let's blame the tires, not the rims..."

[Jaybee]

The name "Open Tubular" is a rather nebulus description, as they are clearly clincher tires, and there are no common manufacturing methods used on "Open Tubulars" that are also used on all true tubulars. Enve specifies that the tires it is referring to are made with natural fiber casings (cotton or silk). Therefore, that includes other clincher tires such as Specialize Turbo Cotton, which are not called "Open Tubulars".

This part of the statement from Enve's announcement might be misworded:



Given that natural fiber casing tires appear to be safe to use on other wheels (including those with carbon rims), maybe it should instead say, "we confirmed that ENVE carbon rims are not fit for use with tires using natural sidewall materials with an open tubular type construction."

If Enve rims are dangerous to use with some tires that otherwise meet international safety standards, perhaps a recall of Enve rims should be considered.

Unless I'm misreading the press release, they observed similar failures with other manufacturer's rims and the same "open tubular" tires?

[jtbadge]

Vittoria Corsa Non-Tubeless (Not ALL Vittoria Tires) – This tire features cotton sidewalls in black, para (tan), and anthracite (gray). This tire has been described to us by Vittoria as a race day only type of tire and that it is not recommended for training or prolonged use. This tire has been the main offender for cut sidewalls.

Has anyone on Paceline suffered this issue? Seems like the Corsa G+ is one of the most popular tires these days, I've definitely seen them paired with ENVE and other carbon clincher rims all over SoCal and the Internet.

Would this include the popular Corsa G+ clinchers (not "speed" or "control") or is this only referring to older pre-G+ versions of Corsas? Because the typical marketing blurb for the Corsa G+ doesn't seem to suggest it's a "race day only" tire or "not recommended for prolonged use."

The mention of the Anthracite sidewall would indicate that they are referring to the G+ models. The previous iteration was only available in tan or black sidewalls, AFAIK.

[MattTuck]

This is why its best to be a retro-grouch :)

[Clean39T]

tubulars should be closed not open

Post of the day :hello:

[benb]

The Turbo Cotton tires from Specialized are definitely not "open tubulars", you have to use a separate tube just like any other clincher.

It wouldn't surprise me if they have a weaker sidewall due to the use of the cotton as they're marketed as fragile race tires I guess but I'm not sure they would automatically have the same issues on the ENVE rims.

The whole Open Tubular thing is basically a tubular with the internal tube but with flaps sewn on so you can mount it on a clincher rim AFAICT, no need to glue. Not really a tubular, not really a clincher.

That's why they always seemed so weird to me. You can't ride them flat like a tubular, you don't get to use the lighter tubular wheel, you don't get lower pressure benefits a tubular's glue might provide, you probably get the higher tubular rolling resistance vs a high end modern clincher, you lose easy repairability with just carrying tube(s).

[El Chaba]

I thought disc brakes were supposed to solve all of the problems with carbon clinchers....

[MattTuck]

I thought disc brakes were supposed to solve all of the problems with carbon clinchers....

The next generation of carbon clinchers will have it all sorted out, trust me.

[jtbadge]

The Turbo Cotton tires from Specialized are definitely not "open tubulars", you have to use a separate tube just like any other clincher.

That's what all "open tubulars" are. Vittoria, Challenge, Veloflex. Supple clinchers, usually with cotton sidewalls instead of vulcanized rubber.

[ergott]

It would be nice if they would simply finish the edges of their rims off. They are the only rim I've recently seen with sharp edges. Rims like Boyd, Nox, and FSE are all finished of with much higher quality.

[ergott]

I thought disc brakes were supposed to solve all of the problems with carbon clinchers....

This issue isn't across the board with other CC rims.

[Ed-B]

It will be interesting to see what Vittoria has to say about this...

[Iansir]

This is a bummer, I loved Corsa’s for summer riding. I would guess Specialized Turbo Cotton are in same category. This is a major deal!

[Blown Reek]

It would be nice if they would simply finish the edges of their rims off. They are the only rim I've recently seen with sharp edges. Rims like Boyd, Nox, and FSE are all finished of with much higher quality.

If you think Enve rims' edges (or rims in general) are not as finished as other brands, well, that's just fake news.

[Kirk007]

If you think Enve rims' edges (or rims in general) are not as finished as other brands, well, that's just fake news.

you do realize don't you that you are responding to one of the most experienced wheelbuilders on the forum who builds with all of these rims on a regular basis?

[Blown Reek]

you do realize don't you that you are responding to one of the most experienced wheelbuilders on the forum who builds with all of these rims on a regular basis?

I do.

[Iansir]

Does this apply to Compass Extralight sidewalls as well?

[ergott]

If you think Enve rims' edges (or rims in general) are not as finished as other brands, well, that's just fake news.

Not sure if you are sarcastically agreeing with me or not. I'm positive many of wheel builders I speak to on a regular basis agree with me.

[benb]

That's what all "open tubulars" are. Vittoria, Challenge, Veloflex. Supple clinchers, usually with cotton sidewalls instead of vulcanized rubber.

I was thinking of something else.. not sure they make them anymore, I can't remember which company it was.

[Mark McM]

The Turbo Cotton tires from Specialized are definitely not "open tubulars", you have to use a separate tube just like any other clincher.

Tubulars also use inner tubes - however in this case, the inner tube is already installed before the casing is sewn shut. Repairing a punctured tubular tire involves un-sewing the casing near puncture, pulling out that portion of the inner tube, patching the inner tube just like you'd patch any other inner tube, and then re-inserting the inner tube back into the casing and re-sewing the casing shut. This is one reason that tubulars lost popularity - they are much more of a pain to fix. Most people either end up discarding the tire, or paying to have a professional tire repairer to fix it.

https://mk0completetrid5cejy.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/ZKHuQ-300x146.jpg

[Blown Reek]

Not sure if you are sarcastically agreeing with me or not. I'm positive many of wheel builders I speak to on a regular basis agree with me.

I don't buy in to the fact that, for whatever reason, Enve rims aren't up to the standards that other "quality" rims are, and to think that they make an inferior product just seems a little personal-biased. After all, Old Potatoe hates Mavic rims with a passion and has had nothing but trouble, but I'm on the complete opposite end of the spectrum.

The only "sharp edge" rim I've ever seen was a Mavic Cosmic Carbone 40c, and that was by design, and not poor manufacturing. When they moved from the CC40 rim shape to the Pro Carbon SL C shape, the sharp edge was gone.

Nothing personal, and to even think that I'll hold my own in a wheel/wheelbuilding conversation with you is absurd, but with all the "hate" on the board (SRAM hate, Mavic hate, Enve hate, Campagnolo hate, tubeless hate, seat tube clamping hate... whichever "team" you identify with), unless I actually see actual proof, it's anecdotal at best. Keep in mind that I'm no Enve fanboy nor corporate shill, nor do I take any of this personally, either.

[Spaghetti Legs]

I applaud them for their public banishment of basically all Challenge tires from their rims.

Yeah looks like Enve is scratched from the Challenge end of year party.

[Mark McM]

I don't buy in to the fact that, for whatever reason, Enve rims aren't up to the standards that other "quality" rims are, and to think that they make an inferior product just seems a little personal-biased. After all, Old Potatoe hates Mavic rims with a passion and has had nothing but trouble, but I'm on the complete opposite end of the spectrum.

A recent thread on poor Enve rim quality:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=234825

It's also no secret that the first generation of Enve carbon clinchers had trouble handling brake heat.

http://i.imgur.com/4y5KeiR.jpg

Just growing pains that have or will be addressed? Possibly. But there is ample past evidence of problematic Enve rims.

[Kirk007]

I was thinking of something else.. not sure they make them anymore, I can't remember which company it was.

tufo made a tire like that

[fignon's barber]

………….., but with all the "hate" on the board (SRAM hate, Mavic hate, Enve hate, Campagnolo hate, tubeless hate, seat tube clamping hate... whichever "team" you identify with), unless I actually see actual proof, ………...


Hey, you left out: disc brake hate, race organizer hate, doping hate, masters racing hate, carbon frame hate, gravel bike hate, aero bike hate, aero helmet hate, Rapha hate, Ebay hate, USPS rate hate,and,of course, Lance hate. I'm sure I missed a few dozen.

[cmbicycles]

The next generation of carbon clinchers will have it all sorted out, trust me.

I have to believe they will be "game changing" :eek:

[Calnago]

The term “Open Tubular” is nothing more than marketing speak, derived to convince the consumer that the clincher tires they are about to buy (yes, they are simply clinchers) are just like their tubular counterparts except in clincher form. Well, they may be of similar construction, except for one glaring defining fact... they are not tubulars in any way shape or form, they are clinchers. And they will never possess the handling/ride characteristics of their true tubular brethren. As long as they have to be supported by two hard rim sidewalls, and have structural beads to hold them within these sidewalls, they can never truly be expected to behave like a tubular, perfectly round and cradled gently within a rim bed of similar radius, allowing it much more leeway to conform to the contours of the road in all conditions, especially when leaned over in a hard turn. And because it’s cradled and glued to the rim bed, the tires' sidewalls can be made more supple since there is no hard edge they have to butt up against.
It’s the sharp carbon edges of the carbon clincher rims that are the problem, not the tires. If the carbon edges were nice and smooth, as @Ergott suggested, the propensity to cut the nice supple walls of a high quality (supple), and thus nice riding clincher (marketed as “Open Tubular”) would not be there. ENVE’s warning would like to make you believe it is the tires that are at fault, when in fact what they should be saying is “Please use a really awful riding thick walled clincher made of steel belts if possible, rather than soft and supple silks and cotton, because we’re pretty sure the sharp edges of our carbon clincher rims won’t be able to cut through those”.
I suspect it’s quite difficult to manufacture a nice super smooth clincher bead, otherwise they would do it. I still recall the clean deep gash in my hand caused by grasping the carbon spokes of a wheel to fix a flat. The edges of the spokes were very sharp. The edges of a carbon clincher bead can be similarly sharp.

[jtbadge]

Hey, you left out: disc brake hate, race organizer hate, doping hate, masters racing hate, carbon frame hate, gravel bike hate, aero bike hate, aero helmet hate, Rapha hate, Ebay hate, USPS rate hate,and,of course, Lance hate. I'm sure I missed a few dozen.

Hate of anything that's not a classic lugged steel racing frame with silver quill stem and Campy 10 and low profile 32 spoke tubulars or a Moots with matchy ti cockpit.

I want to put SRAM on my MXL that already has a threadless stem and "open tubular" tires.

[ergott]

I don't buy in to the fact that, for whatever reason, Enve rims aren't up to the standards that other "quality" rims are, and to think that they make an inferior product just seems a little personal-biased. After all, Old Potatoe hates Mavic rims with a passion and has had nothing but trouble, but I'm on the complete opposite end of the spectrum.

The only "sharp edge" rim I've ever seen was a Mavic Cosmic Carbone 40c, and that was by design, and not poor manufacturing. When they moved from the CC40 rim shape to the Pro Carbon SL C shape, the sharp edge was gone.

Nothing personal, and to even think that I'll hold my own in a wheel/wheelbuilding conversation with you is absurd, but with all the "hate" on the board (SRAM hate, Mavic hate, Enve hate, Campagnolo hate, tubeless hate, seat tube clamping hate... whichever "team" you identify with), unless I actually see actual proof, it's anecdotal at best. Keep in mind that I'm no Enve fanboy nor corporate shill, nor do I take any of this personally, either.

I've personally owned 3 different sets of Edge Composites wheels and Enve 4.5s, 6.7s, and 8.9s. I've built and sold more than my share. There's definitely no personal bias at all. I think they do a lot of things well and would own another set of tubular wheels in a heartbeat. I just know for a fact that the edges of their clincher rims aren't as well finished as other manufacturers. There are also more imperfections at the transition from tire bed to sidewall and they use a filler in some places. I haven't taken pictures of this and posted because I don't make bashing components a habit. I felt the need to point out this issue as they are advising against certain tires and I don't think it's an issue with the tires.

I buy components from any and every company that I think makes quality stuff. I make a habit of not stocking anything in bulk so it doesn't persuade me to sell someone on components just because I have them on hand. I will continue to work with Enve in other aspects when I see fit.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Cycling/The-bikes/i-Lx3q55t/0/a57ecaae/X2/Alchemy%20Enve%20Smart%206.7_01-X2.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Cycling/The-bikes/i-RZH4xzh/0/faff0f36/X2/Ottrott201202-X2.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Cycling/The-bikes/i-Dnfh8nw/0/15915e3c/X2/Spooky%208.9HD-X2.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Cycling/The-bikes/i-C2PpTd8/0/99f859cc/X2/Zanconato%20original-X2.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Cycling/The-bikes/i-qBsLp2x/0/8de87fb5/2152x1440/20150602_064238-2152x1440.jpg

[Dave B]

^^^^^ First off, love the bikes, just fantastic.


Ok I live in a flat area where climbing is about as common as cyclists agreeing on what is the best gear.

So please any of you who are worried, send me your ENVE wheels and Vittoria tires or Veloflex and I'll risk riding them and take away any concerns from you.

I would be happy to help anyone out who is concerned. I am happy to run that set up every day, it is just the problem of affording ENVE wheels that is getting in my way.

[Calnago]

Tubulars also use inner tubes - however in this case, the inner tube is already installed before the casing is sewn shut. Repairing a punctured tubular tire involves un-sewing the casing near puncture, pulling out that portion of the inner tube, patching the inner tube just like you'd patch any other inner tube, and then re-inserting the inner tube back into the casing and re-sewing the casing shut. This is one reason that tubulars lost popularity - they are much more of a pain to fix. Most people either end up discarding the tire, or paying to have a professional tire repairer to fix it.

With the advent of sealants such as Orange Seal, tubular repair is about as easy as it gets... about 10-15ml of sealant and voila, you're off and running again, no tire removal, no mess. I don't use it as a preventative measure like you really need to do in a tubeless setup (mostly just to get it to initially seat and seal properly), but rather only when/if I get a puncture. Super easy, and I can't remember the last time I had to resort to using my spare tubular, and I run tubulars all year round, exclusively.

[pdmtong]

The term “Open Tubular” is nothing more than marketing speak, derived to convince the consumer that the clincher tires they are about to buy (yes, they are simply clinchers) are just like their tubular counterparts except in clincher form. Well, they may be of similar construction, except for one glaring defining fact... they are not tubulars in any way shape or form, they are clinchers. And they will never possess the handling/ride characteristics of their true tubular brethren. As long as they have to be supported by two hard rim sidewalls, and have structural beads to hold them within these sidewalls, they can never truly be expected to behave like a tubular, perfectly round and cradled gently within a rim bed of similar radius, allowing it much more leeway to conform to the contours of the road in all conditions, especially when leaned over in a hard turn. And because it’s cradled and glued to the rim bed, the tires' sidewalls can be made more supple since there is no hard edge they have to butt up against.
It’s the sharp carbon edges of the carbon clincher rims that are the problem, not the tires. If the carbon edges were nice and smooth, as @Ergott suggested, the propensity to cut the nice supple walls of a high quality (supple), and thus nice riding clincher (marketed as “Open Tubular”) would not be there. ENVE’s warning would like to make you believe it is the tires that are at fault, when in fact what they should be saying is “Please use a really awful riding thick walled clincher made of steel belts if possible, rather than soft and supple silks and cotton, because we’re pretty sure the sharp edges of our carbon clincher rims won’t be able to cut through those”.
I suspect it’s quite difficult to manufacture a nice super smooth clincher bead, otherwise they would do it. I still recall the clean deep gash in my hand caused by grasping the carbon spokes of a wheel to fix a flat. The edges of the spokes were very sharp. The edges of a carbon clincher bead can be similarly sharp.
Is the "sharper edge" of an enve carbon rim also a result of the rim being designed for tubeless?
The edges of my Bora One carbon clinchers do not feel sharp at all (they are not designed/recommended for tubeless)

[CSTRider]

On pg 20 of the Bicycle Wheel, Jobst Brandt described the deflection in an alloy rim just above the tire contact point. This deflection effectively distributes the contact point load across a (relatively) long segment of the rim and tire casing.

Since modern deep dish carbon rims don't deflect as much as an older alloy box rim, a carbon rim would transfer tire contact point loads to a much smaller portion of the tire casing. Combine this with comments from others that some of Enve's clincher rims have a sharper "edge" than usual - and it's easy to understand why fragile "race day" tires may have problems with these rims.

[Mark McM]

The term “Open Tubular” is nothing more than marketing speak, derived to convince the consumer that the clincher tires they are about to buy (yes, they are simply clinchers) are just like their tubular counterparts except in clincher form. Well, they may be of similar construction, except for one glaring defining fact... they are not tubulars in any way shape or form, they are clinchers. And they will never possess the handling/ride characteristics of their true tubular brethren. As long as they have to be supported by two hard rim sidewalls, and have structural beads to hold them within these sidewalls, they can never truly be expected to behave like a tubular, perfectly round and cradled gently within a rim bed of similar radius, allowing it much more leeway to conform to the contours of the road in all conditions, especially when leaned over in a hard turn. And because it’s cradled and glued to the rim bed, the tires' sidewalls can be made more supple since there is no hard edge they have to butt up against.

True, the bead areas of the clincher are held very firmly against the rim sidewalls, but it's not like tubulars have no constraint. The portion of the tubular that is bonded to the rim also is constrained. However, edges of the tubular aren't held as rigidly to the rim as with clincher, which has several effects: On the plus side, the tubular tire casing can flex a bit more, which may allow the to conform to rough surfaces better; On the minus side, the extra casing flex (and the hysteresis in the glue which also flexes a bit) results in extra rolling losses, which is why tubular tires have more rolling resistance than clinchers.

Also, tubulars are not completely immune to issues of tire damage caused by chafing against the rim. This is part of why tubulars have base tapes - they are intended to protect the tire casing from chafing against the rim, just like the chafing strips on clincher tires. If the base tape does not extend past the edge of the rim, the casing will eventually fail by rubbing against the edge of the rim (however because tubular rim edges are generally not nearly as sharp as on clincher rims, the chafing will happen more slowly).

Tubulars may ride a bit differently than clinchers, but do they actually handle better? There's really no objective data showing that they do. And if they do, the differences must be quite small, since clincher riders don't seem to suffer in the handling department compared to tubular riders.

[Mark McM]

On pg 20 of the Bicycle Wheel, Jobst Brandt described the deflection in an alloy rim just above the tire contact point. This deflection effectively distributes the contact point load across a (relatively) long segment of the rim and tire casing.

Since modern deep dish carbon rims don't deflect as much as an older alloy box rim, a carbon rim would transfer tire contact point loads to a much smaller portion of the tire casing. Combine this with comments from others that some of Enve's clincher rims have a sharper "edge" than usual - and it's easy to understand why fragile "race day" tires may have problems with these rims.

This is perpetuation of any old myth that has already been put to bed. The rim deflections on any tension spoke wheel is so very small, that the rim might as well be perfectly rigid. It is seriously doubtful that the stiffness of the rim matters much here.

[sfo1]

I thought it was simply hate for change/progress in general?

We should all still be on Simplex shifters and 7-speed!

Hey, you left out: disc brake hate, race organizer hate, doping hate, masters racing hate, carbon frame hate, gravel bike hate, aero bike hate, aero helmet hate, Rapha hate, Ebay hate, USPS rate hate,and,of course, Lance hate. I'm sure I missed a few dozen.

[HTupolev]

Is there a difference between a clincher tire (non-tubeless) and an open tubular, or just different name for the same thing?
It's marketing speak for clinchers that use natural (typically cotton or silk) casing fabric with the tread cold-glued to the tire.

There was a long period of time where that kind of construction was used only on quality tubular tires. So when the high-performance clincher market grew, and that casing style started getting used on clinchers, the companies thought it would sound cool to call them "open tubulars."

Does this apply to Compass Extralight sidewalls as well?
No, Compass tires are vulcanized.

They use a synthetic casing fabric, and the tread is bonded to the tire casing in a hot mold (which also presses the tread pattern into the tread rubber).

The whole Open Tubular thing is basically a tubular with the internal tube but with flaps sewn on so you can mount it on a clincher rim AFAICT
No, that's a Tufo "tubular clincher." They're silly and make no sense for any purpose.

[Calnago]

Tubulars may ride a bit differently than clinchers, but do they actually handle better? There's really no objective data showing that they do. And if they do, the differences must be quite small, since clincher riders don't seem to suffer in the handling department compared to tubular riders.
Yes, they absolutely handle better. You talk in terms of "ifs" and "musts" and "don't seem to", which leads me to believe that perhaps you have never ridden tubulars for any length of time. I'm sure you know that tubulars are pretty much exclusively used at the Pro Tour level, save for a few individuals using some clinchers here and there in time trials perhaps, for the most part pretty flat, non technical courses, just put on your go fast face and pedal. But when the course gets sketchy and fast as it might on a mountain descent, I doubt you would find any pro saying "Can I have clinchers please". So why do Pros still use them. They're a lot safer for one, but primarily it's the handling. Or are pros just resistant to change? Ha.... not if the change is better. If new technology is truly better, it is adopted quickly and completely, sponsorships allowing. On the flip side, sometimes they have to ride less than ideal stuff as well due to sponsor commitments or marketing reasons. Tubulars are a relatively niche market in the real world of you and I's however, so if manufacturers could get the pros to showcase their clinchers, they would. It's not like tubulars are easier for teams to deal with. The pros ride tubulars because they are superior to clinchers, period. The ride quality, handling and safety aspects are unsurpassed by any clincher. And those things far outweigh any rolling resistance difference that anyone would be hard pressed to notice in real life. Do you think the mechanics find tubulars easier to maintain for a pro team... hardly... I'm quite sure if pro mechanics never had to scrape or glue another tubular wheel in their lifetime they would be much happier. It's a thankless job, and one I am happy to do for myself, but really don't care doing for others. It's as if they want the nice clean car but want you to always wash it for them. No thanks. Bottom line is, tubulars are the supreme interface between the man/machine and the road, have been for a long time, and continue to be to this day. Are they worth the effort for the average rider, probably not. Are they worth the effort for the discerning rider, absolutely. If you don't care, that's fine too. And there you have my contribution to the debate, sometimes it just has to be reiterated.
:banana: (I know you guys like dancing bananas over here).

[Mark McM]

Yes, they absolutely handle better. You talk in terms of "ifs" and "musts" and "don't seem to", which leads me to believe that perhaps you have never ridden tubulars for any length of time. I'm sure you know that tubulars are pretty much exclusively used at the Pro Tour level, save for a few individuals using some clinchers here and there in time trials perhaps, for the most part pretty flat, non technical courses, just put on your go fast face and pedal. But when the course gets sketchy and fast as it might on a mountain descent, I doubt you would find any pro saying "Can I have clinchers please". So why do Pros still use them. They're a lot safer for one, but primarily it's the handling. Or are pros just resistant to change? Ha.... not if the change is better. If new technology is truly better, it is adopted quickly and completely, sponsorships allowing. On the flip side, sometimes they have to ride less than ideal stuff as well due to sponsor commitments or marketing reasons. Tubulars are a relatively niche market in the real world of you and I's however, so if manufacturers could get the pros to showcase their clinchers, they would. It's not like tubulars are easier for teams to deal with. The pros ride tubulars because they are superior to clinchers, period. The ride quality, handling and safety aspects are unsurpassed by any clincher. And those things far outweigh any rolling resistance difference that anyone would be hard pressed to notice in real life. Do you think the mechanics find tubulars easier to maintain for a pro team... hardly... I'm quite sure if pro mechanics never had to scrape or glue another tubular wheel in their lifetime they would be much happier. It's a thankless job, and one I am happy to do for myself, but really don't care doing for others. It's as if they want the nice clean car but want you to always wash it for them. No thanks. Bottom line is, tubulars are the supreme interface between the man/machine and the road, have been for a long time, and continue to be to this day. Are they worth the effort for the average rider, probably not. Are they worth the effort for the discerning rider, absolutely. If you don't care, that's fine too. And there you have my contribution to the debate, sometimes it just has to be reiterated.
:banana: (I know you guys like dancing bananas over here).

Yes, these are the many of the same arguments we've heard before, but they are largely full of logical fallacies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy) (in particular Argument from Authority (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority)), not to mention a lot of anecdotes. Sure, the pros still use them, but that could be for lots of reasons. The greater ability to ride a flat tire is probably enough reason. There's also the "legacy" factor ("that's what we've always done.). Just because pros tend to use a product doesn't prove that is the best, even for them (remember when pros wouldn't use aerobars during time trials because they thought they'd slow them down? Or how they didn't start using wider tires until a bunch of "amateur" riders showed that on wider tires can actually be faster?)

Being an empiricist, I'm all about evidence. We've seen time and time again that riding impressions can be biased, so I look for objective evidence. And that evidence just isn't there when it comes to the absolute superiority of the handling of tubulars. When Tour Magazine tested the wet cornering traction of a group of tires (both tubular and clincher), there was no clear trend that the tubulars were better. In fact, if you averaged the performance of the tubulars in their test, it was slightly worst than the average of the clinchers - but that was probably more about the tread material than how the tire was attached to the rim.

Go ahead, keep riding tubulars if that's what you like. You just won't convince me they handle better without showing me objective evidence.

[Lionel]

Oh good, this is turning into a tubular vs clincher. Always entertaining.

[m4rk540]

Hey, you left out: disc brake hate, race organizer hate, doping hate, masters racing hate, carbon frame hate, gravel bike hate, aero bike hate, aero helmet hate, Rapha hate, Ebay hate, USPS rate hate,and,of course, Lance hate. I'm sure I missed a few dozen.

McDonalds makes the best hamburger in America.

[Ed-B]

We've been riding these "Open Tubular" tires for decades. There were Hutchinson A.S. Coton Turbo tires in the 90's, I rode those. Vittoria has made cotton cased "Open Corsa" tires for years - I have 5 pairs in use right now. And there's Veloflex, and Challenge, and perhaps others...

And now ENVE says that bike shops shouldn't support these tires because they fail. Really?

I think ENVE has drawn more attention to their own product with this advice. If we're told that a natural fiber casing is cut and damaged, what makes anyone think that a synthetic casing will be unaffected?

This sounds like a rim problem to me. Maybe ENVE should work to improve the rim/tire interface on their rims to reduce the abrasion and cutting damage being done to these tires.

[fignon's barber]

On a related note, for those who want to live dangerously, Vittoria has just released the Corsa Graphene 2.0. They say it has 40% better rolling resistance, 40% more durable, and 30% better grip. No mention of spontaneous explosion or death though.

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/27/vittoria-claims-big-performance-gains-with-graphene-2-0-tires/

[bshell]

Ergott is right.

This is an Enve problem (-or any other company w/poorly finished hooks)...NOT a Vittoria problem.

I am not a wheel builder other than for myself and I recently had to send back two of their rims due to dangerously jagged hooks. I have no idea how these made it past QC and out the door.

On the other hand, three sets of carbon clinchers from Light Bicycle have been immaculate at 1/4 of the cost.

[Tony]

I've personally owned 3 different sets of Edge Composites wheels and Enve 4.5s, 6.7s, and 8.9s. I've built and sold more than my share. There's definitely no personal bias at all. I think they do a lot of things well and would own another set of tubular wheels in a heartbeat. I just know for a fact that the edges of their clincher rims aren't as well finished as other manufacturers. There are also more imperfections at the transition from tire bed to sidewall and they use a filler in some places. I haven't taken pictures of this and posted because I don't make bashing components a habit. I felt the need to point out this issue as they are advising against certain tires and I don't think it's an issue with the tires.

I buy components from any and every company that I think makes quality stuff. I make a habit of not stocking anything in bulk so it doesn't persuade me to sell someone on components just because I have them on hand. I will continue to work with Enve in other aspects when I see fit.


Just bought some carbon clinchers, I past on Enve as I have seen the same second-rate shoddy workmanship with a friends wheelset. Went with Bontrager, more for my money and flawless in comparison.

[apple]

Ergott is right.

This is an Enve problem (-or any other company w/poorly finished hooks)...NOT a Vittoria problem.

I am not a wheel builder other than for myself and I recently had to send back two of their rims due to dangerously jagged hooks. I have no idea how these made it past QC and out the door.

On the other hand, three sets of carbon clinchers from Light Bicycle have been immaculate at 1/4 of the cost.

I've started to have the same experience. Typically I've gravitated toward Enve or Zipp for carbon wheels, but have had some weird Enve experiences like yours. Not rising to the level of "send them back" but things that seemed slightly sketchy. I've tried now two sets of Roval CLX cabon wheels and both have been pretty much idea. Very small sample sizes here, and I still trust Enve as a company, just have been going "hmmm..." lately.

[dddd]

I would have thought that the hand-made clinchers would all have a cloth chafer strip protecting the casing against the edges of the rim(?).

One other "open tubular" design aspect seems to be that a two-ply casing material is folded and glued around the beads, rather than a single ply folded over the bead and then extended to overlap under the tread for a flat-resisting three plies there.
This gives the open tubular casing a minimal two plies under the tread instead of the usual three as used in the typical clincher tire.
This doesn't count any added belts of course.

I also am wondering what/if the open tubular tire's more-supple casing is resulting in pressure-related issues with the rim, since these supple tires do need higher pressure to achieve the same stability on the rim.

And as for the rims, I see a lot of material having been removed from modern rim's bead/sidewall area over recent years, and ENVE did mention that even some alloy rims were shown to cause open tubular tires to be failure-prone. Time to start add adding a more generous radius there?

[benb]

No, that's a Tufo "tubular clincher." They're silly and make no sense for any purpose.

Thanks, that is the product I was confusing with these "open tubular" tires. I was reaching pretty far back... I heard of a couple people trying them 15 years ago or so.

A bunch of silly names... "Tubular Clincher", "Open Tubular".

Maybe I will launch "basketsquares" or "footsquares" or "basesquares". They will be spheres, but I'll call them Squares.

On the Open Tubulars.. these things save tiny grams and tiny watts, if it turns out they get that by being dangerous on some rims I bet these tires disappear.

It seems there is nothing wrong with these tires and nothing wrong with the Enve rims but we don't have true system integration with a lot of bike stuff.. it's consumer integrated. Not really tested.

I had a set of Velomax/Easton wheels. Nothing wrong with them. I got some Vredstein tires at one point. Nothing wrong with them. They did not work together, I had several blowoffs. But I bet there were no off the shelf bikes that were shipping with that combo.

[SPOKE]

i've had/get far more fatal sidewall cuts on the last 3 iterations of michelin pr2-4 than i ever have on my vittoria opens. In fact i've had zero on my vittoria's.

truth!!!!

[Heisenberg]

sorry for being that guy who doesn't read the whole thread...

but i've run vittorias and other open tubs on enve rims quite a bit without issue. i do tend to wear out these kinds of tires faster than others, so perhaps my anecdotal experience is skewed. THAT SAID...

ENVE rims have always been really, really, really ****ing good at cutting apart tires on the mountain (read: tubeless) side. i will readily admit that my experience with ENVE post-road tubeless capability is minimal. are the road rims now suffering from the same issue as tubeless comes into vogue?

in any case, long live the ENVE 25. may it always be available secondhand.

ps: if you run challenge clinchers you may have a penchant for large medical bills, on any rim.

[galgal]

Will be interesting to see if any of the other manufacturers ENVE is referring to follow suit in issuing warnings or if Vittoria follows Veloflex in recommending that their Open Corsa's not be used with carbon wheels. If that doesn't happen, would have to think this is more about ENVE than Vittoria. Admittedly, I hope so, as have Vittoria Open Corsa's on all my bikes, including carbon wheels - Campy not ENVE. No issues with the combo, and Vittoria's don't seem more puncture prone than the GP4II I used previously or the Michelin OP 3-4 which were horrible. Besides the Vittoria's ride nicer. IMHO

[sfo1]

Seems fairly straight forward: a carbon semi-unfinished / rough / sharp edge and cotton sidewalls.

Not Vittoria’s fault and I don’t hear anyone saying they have issues with (Vittoria cotton) and Mavic, DT, Specialized, NOX, Zipp, etc.

Seems like an Enve issue and I don’t think you can simply chalk it up to QC. Maybe a design issue.




Will be interesting to see if any of the other manufacturers ENVE is referring to follow suit in issuing warnings

[Spdntrxi]

A recent thread on poor Enve rim quality:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=234825

It's also no secret that the first generation of Enve carbon clinchers had trouble handling brake heat.

http://i.imgur.com/4y5KeiR.jpg

Just growing pains that have or will be addressed? Possibly. But there is ample past evidence of problematic Enve rims.

almost everyone's 1st gen CC could not handle heat... so enve was no different.. why are you surprised.

[GregL]

...and Enve goes on the PR offensive: https://cyclingtips.com/2019/03/enve-composites-sounds-alarm-on-open-tubular-and-cotton-clincher-failures/

Greg

[AngryScientist]

didnt read all the responses, but the initial release from ENVE is ridiculous IMO.

reading between the lines they are claiming that open tubular construction tires are not safe on any rims, not just theirs.

that's just crazy talk. veloflex and vittoria open tires are my favorites and i, along with many others have tens of thousands of miles on them.



not fair of enve to call out the wildly popular vittoria corsa as "unsafe".

[jtbadge]

didnt read all the responses, but the initial release from ENVE is ridiculous IMO.

reading between the lines they are claiming that open tubular construction tires are not safe on any rims, not just theirs.

that's just crazy talk. veloflex and vittoria open tires are my favorites and i, along with many others have tens of thousands of miles on them.

note too that enve specifically names vittoria and challenge tires; and NOT specialized, with their cotton turbos. they know better, spec will sue their butts off!

not fair of enve to call out the wildly popular vittoria corsa as "unsafe".

Aren't the Turbo Cottons essentially the same tire as the previous generation of Vittoria Corsa? Definitely should be included if they're recommending against Challenge and Vittoria.

[Spdntrxi]

Aren't the Turbo Cottons essentially the same tire as the previous generation of Vittoria Corsa? Definitely should be included if they're recommending against Challenge and Vittoria.

been using Turbo Cottons for years on Enve CC.. no issues. Lucky to get 3k miles out of them.. so they don't last super long anyways, but never noticed anything torn up looking on the bead.

[fignon's barber]

Aren't the Turbo Cottons essentially the same tire as the previous generation of Vittoria Corsa? Definitely should be included if they're recommending against Challenge and Vittoria.

Enve knows Specialized has bigger lawyers.

[rwsaunders]

If you read Vittoria’s website, it does list the Open Corsa as a “competition/race” tire under the discipline category, but I don’t see any reference to not recommending the tire for every day use.The list in the Cycling Tips article is a bit more specific.

https://www.vittoria.com/us/corsa-competition-race.html

NOT RECOMMENDED

Challenge handmade clinchers (all models)
Vittoria Corsa non-tubeless

RECOMMENDED

Bontrager
Continental
Hutchinson
IRC
Mavic
Maxxis
Panaracer
Pirelli
Schwalbe
Specialized (with the exception of the 28mm-wide S-Works 2Bliss model on the SES AR 4.5 Disc rim)
Tufo
Vittoria (with the exception of the Corsa model mentioned above)

[R3awak3n]

there are so many people that use Vittoria Corsa as your main tire and do not race. I am one of them. They have been great to me, specially the corsa control.. still pretty supple but not as prone to flats.


I agree that this seems to be an enve problem. They are saying other manufacturers have em too, even on alloy rims but until other manufactures come out and say it, it seems like Enve has some work to do.

[spinarelli]

Same here. I use vittoria corsas exclusively on all my wheelsets with no problems. Sounds like enve is doing some preemptive PR rather then improve the quality control of their manufacturing process.

there are so many people that use Vittoria Corsa as your main tire and do not race. I am one of them. They have been great to me, specially the corsa control.. still pretty supple but not as prone to flats.


I agree that this seems to be an enve problem. They are saying other manufacturers have em too, even on alloy rims but until other manufactures come out and say it, it seems like Enve has some work to do.

[Tall]

Compass/Rene Herse just put a statement saying their tires are safe with carbon rims. Apparently they use polyester for the casing, and have some reinforcement at the casing/bead transition.

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2019/03/09/rene-herse-compass-tires-are-safe-with-carbon-rims/

[rain dogs]

This is the most stupid thing I have ever read. Things are cut by things that are sharp... in this case, ENVE rims and their molding.

I just put another pair of Vittoria Corsa G+ on my wheels today. I have never, ever seen a wheel "cut" by a rim. Granted I use Zondas and not Enve carbon... but hey... shift the blame. I've used Vittoria "open" tubulars for, what, 15 years?

Whether it's this issue, the experience of builders like Ergott, or reviews of Enve on luescher teknik it appears ENVE has major quality control problems they need to get sorted out.

[Tony]

This is the most stupid thing I have ever read. Things are cut by things that are sharp... in this case, ENVE rims and their molding.

I just put another pair of Vittoria Corsa G+ on my wheels today. I have never, ever seen a wheel "cut" by a rim. Granted I use Zondas and not Enve carbon... but hey... shift the blame. I've used Vittoria "open" tubulars for, what, 15 years?

Whether it's this issue, the experience of builders like Ergott, or reviews of Enve on luescher teknik it appears ENVE has major quality control problems they need to get sorted out.

The finger pointing by Enve is too much. They bring up Chris Kings name in a poor wheel review and blame them for the price of their wheels. Now its Vittoria Corsa's and not the design/quality control problems with their rims.

[pdmtong]

Is this ENVE "warning" posted on their website? I looked and cannot find it.

Very odd to show up in corners of the internet and not on their main page

[fignon's barber]

The finger pointing by Enve is too much. They bring up Chris Kings name in a poor wheel review and blame them for the price of their wheels. Now its Vittoria Corsa's and not the design/quality control problems with their rims.

Well, at least they learned something from when they had a recall of their road disc forks in 2016: preemptive strike against others before the CPSC holds you responsible.

[rwsaunders]

Is this ENVE "warning" posted on their website? I looked and cannot find it.

Very odd to show up in corners of the internet and not on their main page

It seems like there was a press release...

https://roadbikeaction.com/beware-tire-wear-warning-for-all-enve-ses-wheel-models-2/amp/

https://cyclingtips.com/2019/03/enve-composites-sounds-alarm-on-open-tubular-and-cotton-clincher-failures/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Velo/comments/ayr2mb/enve_says_no_open_tubular_clinchers_on_their/

[galgal]

Is this ENVE "warning" posted on their website? I looked and cannot find it.

Very odd to show up in corners of the internet and not on their main page

That is very odd indeed! So their *warning* is showing up all over the internet, its even made its way to the reviews section of the Vittoria Open Corsa's on CC, and is not on their own website! Very strange. One can give them props issuing a warning with attendant blow back as they are targeting a very popular tire. But would have to agree, this does come across as ENVE shifting the blame for their own problems. Do they really want to suggest that people get their premium carbon clincher rims at premium prices and then use them with Gatorskins or Rubino tires. Makes no sense.

[pdmtong]

It seems like there was a press release...

https://roadbikeaction.com/beware-tire-wear-warning-for-all-enve-ses-wheel-models-2/amp/

https://cyclingtips.com/2019/03/enve-composites-sounds-alarm-on-open-tubular-and-cotton-clincher-failures/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Velo/comments/ayr2mb/enve_says_no_open_tubular_clinchers_on_their/

I saw all those but NOT on the Enve site...and they did not take the typical press release format.

[rwsaunders]

I saw all those but NOT on the Enve site...and they did not take the typical press release format.

This is from the CT article...Enve has released a preliminary list of tires that are either explicitly approved or not approved for its carbon clincher rims, but Nelson and Child are careful to point out that the list is hardly exhaustive — and officially, it’s so far only been communicated to Enve dealers and registered wheel owners (CyclingTips obtained a copy of the email from a dealer).

[pdmtong]

It seems like there was a press release...
https://roadbikeaction.com/beware-tire-wear-warning-for-all-enve-ses-wheel-models-2/amp/
https://cyclingtips.com/2019/03/enve-composites-sounds-alarm-on-open-tubular-and-cotton-clincher-failures/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Velo/comments/ayr2mb/enve_says_no_open_tubular_clinchers_on_their/

ahh, I got it now...thanks

[rwsaunders]

ahh, I got it now...thanks

Any time Paul.

[Mark McM]

Enve is also the only rim I've heard of that can literally explode if the a different brand of tubeless tape is used (https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Warning%3A_How_to_Destroy_an_Enve_7.8_Rim_P6833610/) (explode as in burst apart).

[gone]

This is so stupid. Obviously Enve preemptively avoiding litigation. I've got more than 100K miles on Vittoria Corsas on Enve rims and other carbon rims (Bontrager, Specialized, Zipp) with no issues.

Currently running last gen Paves on some Enves and getting ready to replace them with Corsa controls.

I'll probably die.

[Black Dog]

So if Enve has a sharp edge on their bead hooks and this edge is causing tire failures on some tires and other rim makers that have have rounded edges do not have issues, why doesn't Enve just....hmmmmmm....I dunno.....just get rid of the sharp edge and be done with this! Stop paying lawyers for advice and pay an engineer for some advice.

:rolleyes: This is such bad PR for them. I am wondering if all these issues are happening post acquisition (IIRC, they went through an ownership change or some sort of big management upheaval).

[Spdntrxi]

So if Enve has a sharp edge on their bead hooks and this edge is causing tire failures on some tires and other rim makers that have have rounded edges do not have issues, why doesn't Enve just....hmmmmmm....I dunno.....just get rid of the sharp edge and be done with this! Stop paying lawyers for advice and pay an engineer for some advice.

:rolleyes: This is such bad PR for them. I am wondering if all these issues are happening post acquisition (IIRC, they went through an ownership change or some sort of big management upheaval).

accept the story mentions they also find failures on other mfg rims?

[spinarelli]

failures have been consistent in our test lab on a variety of other manufacture's rims, both alloy and carbon

Interesting that they include other manufacturers' alloy rims are experiencing the same failures. I'd like to pool our forum knowledge and see how many of us had this happen on alloy rims.

Personally, I've used vittoria open tubulars for about 15 years. evo corsa, open corsa SC and G+. I must have gone through 20+ pairs in this time. I've never experienced this kind of damage to the sidewall near the bead.

[Spdntrxi]

^ I've never had this failure on any rims... including the roughly 10 sets on Enve's I owned or still own.

[ergott]

Little update

I have a set of AR4.5s here and the tire area is much improved over the other clinchers I've worked with. Perhaps it has to do with these being hookless, but things are very tidy.

[Black Dog]

failures have been consistent in our test lab on a variety of other manufacture's rims, both alloy and carbon

Interesting that they include other manufacturers' alloy rims are experiencing the same failures. I'd like to pool our forum knowledge and see how many of us had this happen on alloy rims.

Personally, I've used vittoria open tubulars for about 15 years. evo corsa, open corsa SC and G+. I must have gone through 20+ pairs in this time. I've never experienced this kind of damage to the sidewall near the bead.

Sure, but we have to take their word for this. If they are serious they will publish a white paper on the matter with the rims they tested on and the tires and, of course, a detailed test protocol. Otherwise it is an unsubstantiated claim that can not be independently verified.

[jtbadge]

failures have been consistent in our test lab on a variety of other manufacture's rims, both alloy and carbon

Interesting that they include other manufacturers' alloy rims are experiencing the same failures. I'd like to pool our forum knowledge and see how many of us had this happen on alloy rims.

Personally, I've used vittoria open tubulars for about 15 years. evo corsa, open corsa SC and G+. I must have gone through 20+ pairs in this time. I've never experienced this kind of damage to the sidewall near the bead.

I think we'll find a lot of issues with Challenge and Veloflex open tubulars being unsafe on any rim. Less or none for Vittoria.

I personally had a set of Challenge Strada Biancas that was good for about 800-1000 miles and then delaminated at the tread and the sidewall. Glad I caught it at home and not mid-ride.

[windsurfer]

Looking forward to steep price cuts on corsa-g's

:banana:

[parallelfish]

I have about 2k miles on a set of Corsa G’s on Enve 3.2 wheels. Just checked them. The rim bead area feels well finished, and the tire bead area shows no wear when compared to a new tire.

The press release indicates the issue is hard to spot visually, so perhaps this is a meaningless exercise.

[Spdntrxi]

Little update

I have a set of AR4.5s here and the tire area is much improved over the other clinchers I've worked with. Perhaps it has to do with these being hookless, but things are very tidy.

I have not checked my 5.6disc... but my 4.5AR and G27's are smooth as butter.(hookless)

[adrien]

Well, I took my corsas off, really more as an excuse to try GP 5000s.

The corsas looked just fine. LBS told me that the only time they have seen issues is when folks either run them at lower pressures and/or don't pump them up every ride...which leads me to think it's as much user issues as anything.

FWIW, I like the wheels, and the GP5000s are great.

[yinzerniner]

Well, I took my corsas off, really more as an excuse to try GP 5000s.

The corsas looked just fine. LBS told me that the only time they have seen issues is when folks either run them at lower pressures and/or don't pump them up every ride...which leads me to think it's as much user issues as anything.

FWIW, I like the wheels, and the GP5000s are great.

I honestly think that the main culprit for the damage observed by Enve is the wide rim / low pressure / increased flex combination. That combined with their slightly stiffer / sharper carbon bead hook and rim vs alloy counterparts is a recipe for early and catastrophic failure.

Enve's been at the forefront of super-wide internal rim diameters with their promises of lower pressures, decreased rolling resistance and increased compliance/comfort. The only other large-scale rim manufacturer to push the "wider is better" mantra more aggressively has been HED, but they've stuck with alloy for much longer than almost everyone. The increased flex and smoother bead of the alloy rim could be the better conduit for dealing with the increased casing flex than the super-stiff, deep carbon rims.

But this is all speculation until Enve or another rim manufacturer starts putting out some white papers for peer review.

[benb]

I have been riding the non-cotton Specialized S-works Turbo for about 3 years.

The cotton supposedly saves about 3-4W in the pressure range I ride at if you ride at 18mph.

Not enough to worry about the drama of the more fragile version of the tire... seems like an easy choice but maybe that's harder the more money you spend on your carbon rims.

[Joxster]

So a reply from Challenge Tyres. I have also heard that Vittoria will be taking Enve to court in the UK

From Challenge

Consumer Product Safety Bulletin
(technical clarification, following ENVE’s Consumer Safety Bulletin of March 6th, 2019)
This bulletin is to reconfirm that Challenge tires should not be used with any rims or wheels that do not comply with either the current 2019 ETRTO, past ETRTO or soon to be released ISO 5775 global standards for tire and wheel fit.
Challenge specifically clarifies herewith, that both old and new ETRTO and future ISO standards require a minimum 0.7mm rounded radius on all hooked rims.
It has come to Challenge’s attention that ENVE SES model carbon wheels do not comply with the above standards on the design of the rounded hooked rim radius. In fact, ENVE’s SES have two sharp (<0.2mm) radii in their hooks, that leave two parallel cuts about 0.5mm apart, around the entire radius of our (and other company’s) tires, at around 3- 4mm above the bead.
Challenge has noted failures of its clincher tires, communicated by consumers and athletes, caused by the sharp edges on the ENVE SES hooks. This international design standard violation has been communicated back to the affected consumers, shops, endorsed teams, ENVE and their parent company, as Challenge has been made aware of problems. ENVE, however, continues to produce and promote usage of the said SES models, as part of their line.
Challenge has consequently been forced to list the specific ENVE SES rims as not compatible with any Challenge clincher tire models, on the website. Challenge asks that consumers do not mount ENVE SES wheels with any model of Challenge clincher tire whatsoever.
Failure to follow this warning could cause the ENVE SES wheel to cut Challenge’s quality casings resulting in explosive air loss from the tire and/or inner tube, potentially causing a crash and injury to the rider.
This bulletin also aims at providing the technical clarification, that only a precisely defined 622.0mm+-0.5mm bead seat diameter, specifically defined wall height and center channel, as described in the new above standards, will safely and easily allow proper tire and rim fit and function. Challenge has regularly been attending standards meetings and being involved for the past three years in confronting the market’s accelerated changes, such as the implementation of progressively wider rims, carbon fiber clinchers rims and tubeless and tubeless ready tire technologies. Challenge has invested time, knowledge and energy together with other elite bicycle industry companies to address and update tire & wheel fit issues with the ETRTO and ISO.
March 13, 2019

Challenge handmade tires have been produced for close to 20 years using the same handmade processes that have been proven over the past 50 years at the highest levels of racing without significant failures - if the rims and wheels comply with internationally accepted design standards. And this applies for both aluminum and carbon fiber rims.
Regarding carbon fiber rims, there had also been other periodic problems in the past with some carbon rims that had cut our (and other tire manufacturers’) tire casings just above the beads. These tire cuts were however normally caused by less than optimal QC at the factory, resulting in quality issues of improper finishing at the tire hook during production. Normally roughness at the hook was due to failure to completely remove resin flashings created while molding the rim. Proper finishing leaves the required 0.7mm min. radiused rim hook smooth, without roughness, thus eliminating a potential tire failure.
In the above cases, Challenge has routinely and successfully worked with the wheel suppliers (including ENVE) to fix the problems or replace these wheels to the consumer. However, specifically with ENVE’s SES model wheels, it is the first time that Challenge has known of a rim hook design that does not meet the above recognized design criteria, reason for which Challenge feels compelled to follow up with the release of this informative bulletin to protect its customers.
For further questions please Challenge at; info@challengetech.it.

[R3awak3n]

So a reply from Challenge Tyres. I have also heard that Vittoria will be taking Enve to court in the UK

From Challenge

Consumer Product Safety Bulletin
(technical clarification, following ENVE’s Consumer Safety Bulletin of March 6th, 2019)
This bulletin is to reconfirm that Challenge tires should not be used with any rims or wheels that do not comply with either the current 2019 ETRTO, past ETRTO or soon to be released ISO 5775 global standards for tire and wheel fit.
Challenge specifically clarifies herewith, that both old and new ETRTO and future ISO standards require a minimum 0.7mm rounded radius on all hooked rims.
It has come to Challenge’s attention that ENVE SES model carbon wheels do not comply with the above standards on the design of the rounded hooked rim radius. In fact, ENVE’s SES have two sharp (<0.2mm) radii in their hooks, that leave two parallel cuts about 0.5mm apart, around the entire radius of our (and other company’s) tires, at around 3- 4mm above the bead.
Challenge has noted failures of its clincher tires, communicated by consumers and athletes, caused by the sharp edges on the ENVE SES hooks. This international design standard violation has been communicated back to the affected consumers, shops, endorsed teams, ENVE and their parent company, as Challenge has been made aware of problems. ENVE, however, continues to produce and promote usage of the said SES models, as part of their line.
Challenge has consequently been forced to list the specific ENVE SES rims as not compatible with any Challenge clincher tire models, on the website. Challenge asks that consumers do not mount ENVE SES wheels with any model of Challenge clincher tire whatsoever.
Failure to follow this warning could cause the ENVE SES wheel to cut Challenge’s quality casings resulting in explosive air loss from the tire and/or inner tube, potentially causing a crash and injury to the rider.
This bulletin also aims at providing the technical clarification, that only a precisely defined 622.0mm+-0.5mm bead seat diameter, specifically defined wall height and center channel, as described in the new above standards, will safely and easily allow proper tire and rim fit and function. Challenge has regularly been attending standards meetings and being involved for the past three years in confronting the market’s accelerated changes, such as the implementation of progressively wider rims, carbon fiber clinchers rims and tubeless and tubeless ready tire technologies. Challenge has invested time, knowledge and energy together with other elite bicycle industry companies to address and update tire & wheel fit issues with the ETRTO and ISO.
March 13, 2019

Challenge handmade tires have been produced for close to 20 years using the same handmade processes that have been proven over the past 50 years at the highest levels of racing without significant failures - if the rims and wheels comply with internationally accepted design standards. And this applies for both aluminum and carbon fiber rims.
Regarding carbon fiber rims, there had also been other periodic problems in the past with some carbon rims that had cut our (and other tire manufacturers’) tire casings just above the beads. These tire cuts were however normally caused by less than optimal QC at the factory, resulting in quality issues of improper finishing at the tire hook during production. Normally roughness at the hook was due to failure to completely remove resin flashings created while molding the rim. Proper finishing leaves the required 0.7mm min. radiused rim hook smooth, without roughness, thus eliminating a potential tire failure.
In the above cases, Challenge has routinely and successfully worked with the wheel suppliers (including ENVE) to fix the problems or replace these wheels to the consumer. However, specifically with ENVE’s SES model wheels, it is the first time that Challenge has known of a rim hook design that does not meet the above recognized design criteria, reason for which Challenge feels compelled to follow up with the release of this informative bulletin to protect its customers.
For further questions please Challenge at; info@challengetech.it.

Challenge makes garbage tires... we all know that but Enve is at fault on this one, everyone also knows that and I am not surprised tire companies that are involved in the enve blast are pissed off.

[superbowlpats]

Challenge makes garbage tires... we all know that .

well I think their tubular CX tires are quite good. but that's not germane to this thread. carry on.

[Davist]

Challenge makes garbage tires... we all know that but Enve is at fault on this one, everyone also knows that and I am not surprised tire companies that are involved in the enve blast are pissed off.

Disagree with the challenge statement, but fully agree that Enve isn't handling this well, between this and the ebike rims they're taking a beating, and it will be hard to justify their price premium around this rim's bead design, anything "sharp", including small radii, near any type of pneumatics is a tough sell in my book..

[r_mutt]

somewhat related, has anyone tried the Challenge Paris Roubaix? Does this fit in with Challenge tires are garbage?

[FlashUNC]

somewhat related, has anyone tried the Challenge Paris Roubaix? Does this fit in with Challenge tires are garbage?

Yes. Gift a pair to your worst enemy. Otherwise avoid like the plague.

[R3awak3n]

Yes. Gift a pair to your worst enemy. Otherwise avoid like the plague.

:hello:

[rustychisel]

I honestly think that the main culprit for the damage observed by Enve is the wide rim / low pressure / increased flex combination. That combined with their slightly stiffer / sharper carbon bead hook and rim vs alloy counterparts is a recipe for early and catastrophic failure.

Enve's been at the forefront of super-wide internal rim diameters with their promises of lower pressures, decreased rolling resistance and increased compliance/comfort. The only other large-scale rim manufacturer to push the "wider is better" mantra more aggressively has been HED, but they've stuck with alloy for much longer than almost everyone. The increased flex and smoother bead of the alloy rim could be the better conduit for dealing with the increased casing flex than the super-stiff, deep carbon rims.

But this is all speculation until Enve or another rim manufacturer starts putting out some white papers for peer review.

A nuanced reply. But given this is 8 pages of verballing, should we not have a seperate thread for "what really s%&£ts me" before getting stuck into Challenge tyres here.

[bianchi10]

Just read through all 8 pages. I have enve 4.5's wheels wrapped with Corsa's, I'm curious if those who also use the same combination will change tires or continue to use the corsa or similar open tubular style tire?

[denapista]

Just read through all 8 pages. I have enve 4.5's wheels wrapped with Corsa's, I'm curious if those who also use the same combination will change tires or continue to use the corsa or similar open tubular style tire?

Enve is CYA in this moment, in the event something does happen. When I ran clinchers, I ran veloflex without any issues. Just because they release a very aggressive press release, doesn't me we should all listen to them.

Imagine if you were Challenge or Vittoria and saw that press release. Someone claiming your tires are the problem, to the only rim manufacture saying there's an issue. I haven't heard Bontrager, Zipp, Corima or anyone else making these bold claims.

I stopped riding enve junk years ago. People bit the fruit. Their rims are heavy and even getting them to warranty things these days is a daunting task. Enve wheelsets sell for close to $3000. I can build a superior wheelset with FSE rims and better hubs than Enve's stock offerings. The only Enve product I liked was the 2.2 Tubular rims, but the new braking material ate through brake pads way more than I wanted them too.. My buddy wants to build a set of Enve wheels and I offered different options (FSE, Corima, ZIPP, Campy, etc). He strictly wanted ENVE, without any reasoning why... Enve conditioned his mind into thinking they're the best wheel out.

Maybe it was purely luck, but I have a buddy on 2.2 Enve Clinchers running Challenge PR clincher tires with the PP2 protection... He rarely flats and those tires have been rock solid.

[benb]

Somebody mentioned user error with low tire pressures or not checking tire pressures before every ride.

There is something really hilarious and foolish about a rider who buys multi-thousand dollar wheelsets and deliberately underbuilt race-day tires and rides them around on a daily basis but can't be bothered to make sure their tires are inflated correctly. Incorrectly inflated tires erase any gains they got by spending so much money.

I am with others.. Enve has always seemed way too expensive given how modest the the aero gains are unless you're already in a really aggressive riding position and TT at 30mph. And at that price point the build quality should be like a Serotta Legend or Meivici was... every single wheel should be absolutely flawless and finished jewel smooth.

Most of these uber expensive wheels are emperor's new clothes to me. Phil Gaimon's stories about Zipp in his book absolutely horrified me.

[unterhausen]

There is something really hilarious and foolish about a rider who buys multi-thousand dollar wheelsets and deliberately underbuilt race-day tires and rides them around on a daily basis but can't be bothered to make sure their tires are inflated correctly. Incorrectly inflated tires erase any gains they got by spending so much money.
I didn't spend that much money, but I ruined a number of nice tubulars this way BITD. It always made me feel stupid. But I wanted to go ride.

I have had some problems more recently because I really like low pressures on my gravel bike. But my rims are not particularly in agreement about that.

[benb]

I had Challenge gravel tires for a season and they never let me down. I don't think Challenge is wrong here if ENVEs tires are not meeting the spec and have sharp edges.

I never put more than 45psi in the challenge tires either.. the front got run down like 35psi. (38c) Great tires.

[Dromen]

Any updates on the Enve Sharpies?

I have a set of Gen2 3.4s inbound + a large inventory of last gen Vit Corsa Paves that i run on just about everything i own, including the Gen1 3.4s i just moved. Never had a sidewall failure and very few flats with these tires on any rims.

Also wondered from some of the rim experts, if there is a sharp burr/edge on the bead, can it be removed or softened with some abrasive material?

Just curious.