Gore Tex and the competition (slightly OT)

[CNY rider]

It's time for me to get a new ski jacket.
This is for downhill skiing, not nordic.
An absolute requirement: Must be waterproof and breathable.
My body runs average in terms of temperature/warmth requirements.
Gore Tex seems to still be the gold standard for the waterproof material but now there are so many competitors and it seems like each brand has their own fabric now.
Are any of them really as good as Gore Tex?

[PJN]

No.

[Ozz]

What is most important to you? Keeping dry in wet conditions or letting your sweat evaporate?

The venting on the jacket is going to do more to keep you "sweat" dry than the membrane...

I would guess all the usual suspects are just as waterproof....my experience is with Marmot, TNF, O-R, Arc'terykx, and Mammut.

[CNY rider]

Keeping dry is the top priority.
I am tempted by the Helly Hansen Alpha because they seem to have their fabrics sorted but my last HH jacket has a bum zipper that I'm not happy about.

[Jaybee]

For resort style downhill skiing (i.e not touring or skimo) I've found that pretty much everything from the usual suspects works, so long as you have adequate venting zippers. As stated above, I'd value waterproofness over breathability unless I planned on hitting the skin track.

[BobbyJones]

Ive been happy with Polartec's NeoShell.

To be fair, I haven't tried anything GoreTex in quite sometime.

I've never had any luck in the breathability department with any brand specific fabrics like Patagonia's H2No etc.

This is a quick read that may be of interest: https://gearpatrol.com/2016/01/28/waterproof-breathable-jacket-technology-explained/

[Monsieur Toast]

Make sure you get a three-layer jacket -- avoid two-layer construction if you want breathability and don't want to wet yourself out from your own sweat. Pit zips are also a great idea, of course. Working in the industry, I'd say most top-shelf brands have developed waterproofing technology on-par with Gore-Tex. Having the ability to literally get my hands on anything out there, whether or not it's Gore-Tex is one of the least of my concerns. One more note ... make sure to regularly wash & tumble dry (on low) your jacket.

[Ozz]

...One more note ... make sure to regularly wash & tumble dry (on low) your jacket.

...do not use a dryer sheet.....;)

[MattTuck]

Interesting. I was under the impression that open pitzips basically stop the breathability of the fabric. Namely, you need enough moisture pressure inside the jacket to push it through the membrane. Pitzips allow the pressure to escape, and so you can't create the required gradients for the membrane to work.

Why do you suggest washing and drying? Is that using a DWR product?

[kingpin75s]

Not sure how many brands are using it these days, but close to 10 years ago when I was gearing up again, I found eVent direct vent fabrics to be superior to Gore-Tex.

They were doing a lot of products with 66 North at the time, and then a couple years later with the REI house brand etc.

I found their fabrics to be more supple, breathe well and of course are waterproof.

Must be tough taking on Gore-Tex, but at least at the time, I thought they had a better product, especially when combined with the construction quality of 66 North. Never tried the REI versions.

[Ozz]

...Why do you suggest washing and drying? Is that using a DWR product?

sweat and body oils clog up the pores in the membrane that allow it to be breathable....

pit zips don't affect breathability (except to allow another way for water vapor to escape) ....the membrane lets water vapor pass thru, but not liquid water...clog the holes, nothing escapes.

[Gummee]

...do not use a dryer sheet.....;)

No liquid detergent!

The surfactants screw with the membranes

M

[peanutgallery]

Mammut house brand shell works real well. On my 4th season with one

Patagonia does well and Scott also with their house brand stuff. Regular retail should run 300 regular retail, 400 for goretex. Now is the time to buy, just marked ours down to 40% off. Size/color may vary:)

[benb]

Gore Tex is still the most expensive and AFAICT one of the reasons is you can't just buy the fabric and do whatever you want with it... they have to certify the construction of the garment. Everyone else is advertising one thing or another but they always seem to have "cheaper" as one of the defining features and the reports & reviews always seem to have a hint of "fails sooner". If the DOD switches from Gore Tex to something else that would be a huge indicator someone has trumed Gore IMO.

I have had incredible luck with a series of Gore Tex Hard Shells... they keep getting better and better. Progressively lighter and progressively more breathable.

Regular Gore Tex... 1995-2004 or so EMS brand (blew out the zipper, jacket still was looking pretty darn good)
Gore Tex XCR - 2004-2012 - another EMS branded jacket (still have it, was ready for a change.)
Gore Tex Pro Shell - 2012 - present (Arcteryx brand, it's much much lighter than the previous ones, got a great deal and was ready for a change)

They have all been relatively expensive and they continue to get more expensive but none of them have let me down... my wife and I own a bunch of other stuff that is not Gore Tex and there isn't much comparison IMO.

The certification process with the gore tex seems to mean you're buying an old-school type of garment that wears like iron in a world where clothes seem to be designed to fall apart ever faster.

I have worn this stuff all the way from winter mountaineering to hiking in rain forest conditions... I don't wear it all the time, and all the "soft shell" stuff all has a use too. I've never worn my current shell biking but I did wear the previous one in some ultra cold snow riding. I tend to not want to wear this nice stuff biking cause it's way too easy to get grease on it.

To be honest I rarely, rarely need to open the pit zips on my current shell. I wouldn't be afraid of buying a Gore Tex "Pro Shell" without them. The previous iterations I opened those zips a lot more often.

I do use the special chemicals at least 1-2X a year to wash and recondition the DWR layer on my stuff... it's not real difficult.

All the other stuff like the soft shells all have great uses, I have 2x Primaloft ones, a down one, and a fleece.. but the hard shells all have their place too.

I have this bad habit of buying Eddie Bauer stuff.. it is always on sale. It almost always disappoints me. But you asked about Gore Tex and none of the EB stuff I'm talking about is/was Gore Tex.

I also have had numerous pairs of boots with a Gore Tex liner... I have had others too and the Gore Tex destroys them. One pair I have right now that does not have Gore Tex and has a "house brand membrane" clearly doesn't breath, and that is an uninsulated pair of shoes vs the insulated Gore Tex boots. And the non gore-tex branded pair has failed after a year and leaks water. I've had Gore Tex boots 10+ years without them leaking when submerged.

Finally... I used to motorcycle and I had a Dainese suit with a gore tex lining. That suit cost me a small fortune but it was amazing. Any speed, any amount of rain, no leaks, and you didn't feel clammy inside it. Motorcycling tends to be really uncomfortable in wet weather but not with that + gore tex boots. It was a hoot to be able to ride along totally comfortable through ridiculous weather changes without even having to pull over and change.

This isn't really a Gore Tex thing.. but all the shell jackets I've had the #1 wear item on them has been velcro cuffs. Whatever the materials they are using for the outer shell of the jacket eventually starts to fray/fuzz from the velcro rubbing it occasionally. On my current Arcteryx jacket they've got some kind of synthetic soft material on the neck to prevent chafing.. that is the weak point of that jacket as well... that material absorbs sweat and smells way before anything else on the jacket, and it is starting to delaminate after 7 years.

[Mark McM]

Interesting. I was under the impression that open pitzips basically stop the breathability of the fabric. Namely, you need enough moisture pressure inside the jacket to push it through the membrane. Pitzips allow the pressure to escape, and so you can't create the required gradients for the membrane to work.

Hmmmm ... don't know if I believe that. It's the partial pressure of the water vapor that pushes water through the membrane, and the partial pressure depends mostly on temperature (assuming the ambient pressure inside the garment is the same as outside). Opening the pit zips (or other ventilation won't change the partial pressure alone, unless it results in a lowering of the temperature inside the garment.

On the other hand, the pit zips can increase the flow rate of whatever water vapor there is (because it doesn't have to be pushed through the membrane), so the total moisture flow rate can be higher if a garment is well ventilated. That's probably why many cycling rain jackets made from waterproof/breathable materials still have pit zips and back vents.

[kingpin75s]

Ive been happy with Polartec's NeoShell.

To be fair, I haven't tried anything GoreTex in quite sometime.

I've never had any luck in the breathability department with any brand specific fabrics like Patagonia's H2No etc.

This is a quick read that may be of interest: https://gearpatrol.com/2016/01/28/waterproof-breathable-jacket-technology-explained/

A fan of the NeoShell as well.

66 North construction is always top notch.

This is probably my favorite jacket from the past year:

https://www.66north.com/men/jackets/grandi-neoshell-bomber-jacket/?item=W11748-900

[Mark McM]

Gore Tex is still the most expensive and AFAICT one of the reasons is you can't just buy the fabric and do whatever you want with it... they have to certify the construction of the garment ,,,.

On the other hand, maybe Gore-Tex isn't meant for every application. I've tried several pairs of Gore-Tex socks (by different manufacturers, one of which was Gore themselves), and they've all leaked. And I know the water inside the sock wasn't just sweat or water that leaked in through the open top. I know this because if you filled the socks with water, you could see where water oozed out through the fabric.

[benb]

On the other hand, maybe Gore-Tex isn't meant for every application. I've tried several pairs of Gore-Tex socks (by different manufacturers, one of which was Gore themselves), and they've all leaked. And I know the water inside the sock wasn't just sweat or water that leaked in through the open top. I know this because if you filled the socks with water, you could see where water oozed out through the fabric.

I've never seen those, that does seem like a strange product, and I'd be worried about the membrane being destroyed really fast in a sock since a comfortable sock would never be particularly sturdy. Who would want to wear a sock made out of the materials that a boot or jacket was made of.

But AFAIK no Gore tex or any of these other membrane products are ever supposed to be water proof/water resistant the inside out... I think that's pretty standard, if you wear a jacket inside out I don't think it would work either.

On the other hand I just googled "Gore Tex socks" and there are products up on Amazon with Army veterans swearing by them after wearing them overseas during service. Who knows...

[sitzmark]

Interesting. I was under the impression that open pitzips basically stop the breathability of the fabric. Namely, you need enough moisture pressure inside the jacket to push it through the membrane. Pitzips allow the pressure to escape, and so you can't create the required gradients for the membrane to work.

Why do you suggest washing and drying? Is that using a DWR product?

Dryer heat will also help "reset" the DWR, which is first line of defense against moisture from outside. Restoring the DWR periodically (after cleaning) helps moisture bead on the exterior surface, which prolongs time to "wet through".

I have many ski jackets with GoreTex, Schoeller, Dermizax, and eVent. Products with Dermazax haven't performed as desired, but might be the construction (layering technology) of the garment. Schoeller and eVent products have worked reasonably well, but all were insulated jackets.

Haven't found a ski jacket that works for all conditions. I have Kjus jackets that are my first choice in below zero temps - high quality and high tech fabrics - but aren't my first choice for rain days. When it turns wet, GoreTex Pro shells from Arcteryx have given me the longest exposure to rain without wet through. The SV category is most waterproof and AR can go most of a ski day. A "waterproof" shell (jacket and pants) with differing insulator layers (down, synthetic, knit) is the best solution for long days in the wet that I've found.

Helly and other brands probably have perfected their shell offerings also. I see most of the ski schools where I've skied have selected Helly gear. Instructors are pretty good at sorting out what works and doesn't.

There's no "guaranteed to keep you dry forever" except a urethane coated slicker, which will rain on you from inside with high levels of physical activity.

[Ozz]

Mammut house brand shell works real well. On my 4th season with one....:)

+1 - Picked up a Mammut Methow last year...love it.

Replaced a Marmot Alpinist Light that I have had for 20 yrs.....figured it was time to get rid of the black sleeves and shoulders so en vogue back then:cool:

[Mark McM]

I've never seen those, that does seem like a strange product, and I'd be worried about the membrane being destroyed really fast in a sock since a comfortable sock would never be particularly sturdy. Who would want to wear a sock made out of the materials that a boot or jacket was made of.

http://www.bike24.com/i/p/4/8/24584_00_d.jpg

The idea is that you are supposed to wear a liner sock underneath the Gore Tex socks. I think the Achilles heel of these is that socks is that they need to stretch, in order to go over the foot. The Gore-Tex is laminated to a knit fabric, and the PTFE membrane does have a little "give", but if you stretch it too far or too often, the membrane will develop micro-tears.

But AFAIK no Gore tex or any of these other membrane products are ever supposed to be water proof/water resistant the inside out... I think that's pretty standard, if you wear a jacket inside out I don't think it would work either.

According to the Gore FAQ (https://www.gorewear.com/us/en-us/cs-faqs.html#one):

02. How does the GORE-TEX® membrane work?

The GORE-TEX® membrane has 9 billion pores per square inch, with each pore 20,000 times smaller than a water droplet. These tiny holes are too small for water and wind to pass through from the outside, which is how we can guarantee you'll stay dry and warm in a garment made with GORE-TEX® fabric. But these same pores are large enough for moisture vapor to pass through, so your body's perspiration is able to escape and you don't get clammy and uncomfortable.

For the Gore-Tex membrane to not work inside-out, the pores in the membrane would have to be have some magical one-way property - which they don't. The "one-way" aspect of Gore-Tex relies on the outside water being droplets and the inside water being vapor - but if the outside water was vapor and the inside water was droplets, Gore-Tex membrane would breath in the other direction.

[mhespenheide]

I'm a backpacker, not a skier, so I place a little higher premium on breathability. That said, in my experience, Polartec NeoShell, eVent, and Goretex Pro Shell are all aces, with Goretext XCR just a hint behind.

I'd guess that NeoShell is a little more breathable while eVent and ProShell are a little more waterproof. ProShell is probably the burliest of the three fabrics, with NeoShell the least able to withstand abrasion.

[m_sasso]

sweat and body oils clog up the pores in the membrane that allow it to be breathable....

pit zips don't affect breathability (except to allow another way for water vapor to escape) ....the membrane lets water vapor pass thru, but not liquid water...clog the holes, nothing escapes.

Water vapour does not migrate from inside a garment too outside a garment all by itself or by its own intuition.

There must be some differential to cause moisture/H2O vapour to move in a specific direction. Do you understand the process of diffusion?

The primary means for moisture/H2O vapour inside a garment to move/migrate outside a garment is for the internal vapour pressure within the garment to exceed the external moisture/H2O vapour pressure outside the garment. Something is required to drive the moisture/H2O vapour through the Gortex/PTFE membrane and that driver is internal vapour pressure. Yes, years as a Marmot and Osprey technical represenative.

[Ozz]

Water vapour does not migrate from inside a garment too outside a garment all by itself or by its own intuition.

There must be some differential to cause moisture/H2O vapour to move in a specific direction. Do you understand the process of diffusion?

The primary means for moisture/H2O vapour inside a garment to move/migrate outside a garment is for the internal vapour pressure within the garment to exceed the external moisture/H2O vapour pressure outside the garment. Something is required to drive the moisture/H2O vapour through the Gortex/PTFE membrane and that driver is internal vapour pressure. Yes, years as a Marmot and Osprey technical represenative.

wow....you mean molecules moving from areas of high concentration to low concentration? Yeah, I can "google"....sounds a lot like osmosis (from my old chemistry classes)

Still, if I am too warm in my gore tex parka, and am starting to get wet cuz the sweat (vapor) cannot escape fast enough thru the membrane and is condensing inside my jacket....I'm still going to unzip my pit zips to increase "breathability"......

Cheers.

[muz]

No liquid detergent!

The surfactants screw with the membranes

M

Not so sure about that! My last Gore-Tex shell came with instructions to only use liquid detergents.

From https://www.gore-tex.com/gore-tex-wash-instructions:

Machine wash on a warm permanent press cycle (105°F/40°C) using a small amount of liquid detergent. Rinse twice, and minimize spinning to reduce creasing. Don’t use powder detergents, fabric softeners, stain removers, or bleach. Don’t wash with heavily soiled clothing.

[m_sasso]

wow....you mean molecules moving from areas of high concentration to low concentration? Yeah, I can "google"....sounds a lot like osmosis (from my old chemistry classes)

Still, if I am too warm in my gore tex parka, and am starting to get wet cuz the sweat (vapor) cannot escape fast enough thru the membrane and is condensing inside my jacket....I'm still going to unzip my pit zips to increase "breathability"......

Cheers.

Interesting facts, Marmot was the first to employ the use of pit zips in a jacket (inventor) every other outdoor gear company coppied the idea and Marmot is still the largest buyer of GoreTex fabric in the world. Gore was in essence a plumber before he became a textile manufacture, teflon tape used on pipes! Didn't discover the selective properties of streched PTFE, John W. Cropper of New Zealand, however the first to mass market it to Marmot and other outdoor equipment companies.

[benb]

Bottom line when you read anything about experiences people had in the great outdoors decades ago no matter which product you pick we are all incredibly lucky.

All this stuff performs so well compared to what came before that it's basically magic.

[PaMtbRider]

This video is based on Gore Tex motorcycle gear but does a pretty good comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtCdQfbLw7o

[Ozz]

...All this stuff performs so well compared to what came before that it's basically magic.
You mean when wool was the "miracle fiber"? Waterproof was urethane coated nylon.....

Do they even make external frame packs anymore?

I still have a pair of leather climbing boots that needs SnoSeal / BeeSeal / NikWax to waterproof them.....;)

[benb]

Wool definitely works but go read any historical account of anything that would count as an expedition, or anything regarding a military campaign, the clothing really let them down..

They had so much more trouble with clothes becoming soaked and then getting cold than modern stuff.

No idea but I wonder what modern wicking materials, etc.. would have done for "trench foot" in Vietnam... probably not enough.

Wool socks for example are great although I wonder what difference there is between modern and "vintage" wool.... and wool socks are still better under a gore tex type boot than a boot that doesn't breathe well.

[CNY rider]

The deed is done.
I went with a Patagonia Untracked (3 layer Gore Tex).
They have some pretty good close out deals on their website now and I am happy to support them as a company.
Thanks for all the excellent info posted here.

[Ozz]

Wool definitely works but go read any historical account of anything that would count as an expedition, or anything regarding a military campaign, the clothing really let them down......
Oh, you are going way back! Like to these poor sods...the group all lived....Mallory was frozen to the side of Everest for 75 yrs

[benb]

You don't have to go all the way back to Mallory.

I'm just finishing up reading "The Winter Fortress". It's about Allied operations by Norwegians who escaped Nazi occupation during WWII.. it's focused on their efforts to slow/halt production of heavy water for the German Nuclear program.

Tons of the book is covering Norwegians and/or British and/or German troops navigating the back country in the middle of winter on skiis & such... Some truly insane accounts of unbelievable X/C ski journeys, even chases on skiis.

Many many accounts of places those guys would have been so happy to have modern materials.

Our troops haven't been fighting in the jungle for a while but any account of time in the Vietnam war makes it sound like these materials would have been appreciated a great deal there too.

[Ozz]

If you like military reading, check out: Colder than Hell: A Marine Rifle Company at Chosin Reservoir (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009SC9WBY/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1)

It makes you want to put on a sweater while reading it.....

[sitzmark]

DoD/Army has a very high tech R&D operation in Natick, MA at the old base which is exploring textile technologies specifically for protecting soldiers from the elements and battlefield dangers. Read an article a couple of years ago about some of the amazing science being explored there. Maybe some “trickle down” at some point in the future.

[Ozz]

DoD/Army has a very high tech R&D operation in Natick, MA at the old base which is exploring textile technologies specifically for protecting soldiers from the elements and battlefield dangers. Read an article a couple of years ago about some of the amazing science being explored there. Maybe some “trickle down” at some point in the future.
I met with Outdoor Research a couple years ago and got a tour of the Seattle facility...if I remember right, they had a floor where they made gloves for the military Spec Ops guys. Apparently those guys are picky about equipment and want the best....;-)

[Gummee]

DoD/Army has a very high tech R&D operation in Natick, MA at the old base which is exploring textile technologies specifically for protecting soldiers from the elements and battlefield dangers. Read an article a couple of years ago about some of the amazing science being explored there. Maybe some “trickle down” at some point in the future.

Polartech Alpha is already trickling down...

M