Tubeless question: dry run

[weisan]

http://alicehui.com/bike/Tubeless/IMG_3375.jpg

Wheel : WTB 27.5 TCS Juliana
Tire : Pacenti Quasi moto 27.5x2

I was trying to convert to tubeless.

Did a dry run first without sealant.

Can hear the beads popped all around the rim.

The tire deflates after 30 seconds or so.

My question is :

Is that an indication that there's a leak and I will run into issues later when I try to inject sealant?

[peanutgallery]

Don't waste your time with sealant yet

Check the tape and the valve, usually the issue

WTB rims will make you work for it

[R3awak3n]

Maybe but I have had tires that do this and when I put sealant on them they ran just fine for miles and miles so as soon as I seat my beads, I add sealant. Spin the tire a bunch after pumping up. Leave over night. First overnight it will loose a lot of air. Then spin spin spin (or go for a ride is even better). Next day check air, fill up again... by the 3rd day usually good to go, no more crazy airloss.

[mktng]

theres likely leaking between tire and rim.
but wouldnt hurt to ensure tape and valve stem are properly installed.
add sealant, and inflate again. the sealant will find those leaks between tire and rim once seated. after a cycle or two it should hold air no issues.

[weisan]

Thank you everyone!

[HenryA]

I’ve had best results when I put in the sealant, pump the tires and ride the bike. If that is impractical, bounce and spin the wheels for 5 or 10 minutes before you put them on the bike. I much prefer seating the bead with inflation and then removing the valve core and filling with sealant through a tube on the valve.

[tombtfslpk]

Lots of good advice so far.
Check tape and valve stem, probably leaking between bead and rim. Do the beads "pop" when you inflate the tire? (Whoops, reading comprehension issues!) They should, at least a little, some tires don't fit very tight. If there is no resistance the bead isn't going to seal for long.
Check for leaks with soapy water. If you put sealant in and the bead seal is sketchy, you pretty much need to ride it right then, and carry a pump (not inflator) to keep the tires up until the sealant finds all the leaks. Don't ask me how I know.:help:

[R3awak3n]

the whole find the leak... have fun.... that is just a waste of time, let the sealant do its job.

What is going to do? redo the tape 50 times and reseat the damn valve? Put the sealant, go ride, have fun...

this is why people think tubeless is a 7 headed dragon.. and then we have to deal with Old Potato talking about tubeless all day long... the job of the sealant is to plug holes, dry mounting means nothing to me because that is not how you are going to run the wheel.

[zacstanley]

the whole find the leak... have fun.... that is just a waste of time, let the sealant do its job.

What is going to do? redo the tape 50 times and reseat the damn valve? Put the sealant, go ride, have fun...

this is why people think tubeless is a 7 headed dragon.. and then we have to deal with Old Potato talking about tubeless all day long... the job of the sealant is to plug holes, dry mounting means nothing to me because that is not how you are going to run the wheel.

Here, here. When in doubt add more sealant!!

[mktng]

the whole find the leak... have fun.... that is just a waste of time, let the sealant do its job.

What is going to do? redo the tape 50 times and reseat the damn valve? Put the sealant, go ride, have fun...

this is why people think tubeless is a 7 headed dragon.. and then we have to deal with Old Potato talking about tubeless all day long... the job of the sealant is to plug holes, dry mounting means nothing to me because that is not how you are going to run the wheel.

agree'd. trust in the sealant. once you trust it works. its painless.
however. always good to double check before loading the sealant in. haha

[MikeD]

Don't waste your time with sealant yet

Check the tape and the valve, usually the issue

WTB rims will make you work for it



Agreed. There's a major leak somewhere if it goes flat in 30 seconds.

[R3awak3n]

Agreed. There's a major leak somewhere if it goes flat in 30 seconds.

It can also depend heavily on the rim/tire combo. I dunno what he is running but i have had tires that went flat quick and the sealant took care of the issue.


of course make sure things are right. 2 layers of tubeless tape? properly installed? valve in the proper way? then you should be good.


also what do you mean "convert to tubeless?" is your rim not tubeless ready? or your tire?

[weisan]

It can also depend heavily on the rim/tire combo. I dunno what he is running but i have had tires that went flat quick and the sealant took care of the issue.


of course make sure things are right. 2 layers of tubeless tape? properly installed? valve in the proper way? then you should be good.


also what do you mean "convert to tubeless?" is your rim not tubeless ready? or your tire?


No, it just means that I am currently using a tube.

I tried 2 layers earlier, couldn't even inflate the tire, went back to one, and it inflates again.

The bead all around is completely popped but I can still feel air leaking out from the sides.

I am beginning to wonder if the tire is a good match for the rim.

[Jaybee]

Given that wei-pal is headed out on a multi-day tour, I'd encourage him to make sure that the setup is correct. 90% of the potential problems can be cured with sealant, but it's important to know if he's in the other 10%. Use soap and water to find the leaky spots, double check the tape/valves, and try again.

My guess, based on description and previous experience with Panaracer and WTB rims, is that there is one spot where the bead doesn't quite set. Getting some soapy water in there will lube things up so the bead can get where it needs to. Then get on the bike and ride it for a couple minutes up and down the street to make sure it's solid. Your choice whether to add sealant before or after the inflation, I usually go with after.

[weisan]

Thank you Jay pal!

[kppolich]

My bet is on the valve.

Dealing with a similar dry run situation with new GP5000TLs and HED + Rims.

Rear wheel sets up fine and holds air for weeks.
Front wheel sets up fine, bead looks good, but is flat overnight.

I'm investigating tape and valve core before adding sealant to each wheel.

[MikeD]

This is not a tubeless ready tire. What did you expect?

[yinzerniner]

This is not a tubeless ready tire. What did you expect?

Yeah, tough to expect perfect sealing when you're going with a ghetto tubeless setup.

Would reiterate that a second layer of tape is the way to go if the OP wants the best results for the long run. It might take a bit of extra compressor pressure and/or more lubricant to seat the tire but in the end the seal will be tighter so the leaks will lessen and the tubeless sealant inside won't have to fill in as many large gaps.

Good old thread going over previous experiences with the ghetto tubeless setup on these tires:
https://forums.mtbr.com/27-5/quasi-moto-tubeless-question-685530.html

[weisan]

yes, I am beginning to realize that this tire is not designed specifically to be tubeless.

I am not gonna risk it on my trip.

I will either go back to tube again or change to another tire.

can anyone recommend a good solid tubeless-compatible 27.5x2-2.1 gravel tire?

[Jaybee]

Sending you a PM....

If that option doesn't work for you, depending on how much you want to spend I'd either look for something like Ikons or Thunder Burts or Nanos.

[sparky33]

yes, I am beginning to realize that this tire is not designed specifically to be tubeless.

I am not gonna risk it on my trip.

I will either go back to tube again or change to another tire.

can anyone recommend a good solid tubeless-compatible 27.5x2-2.1 gravel tire?

Thunder Burt 2.1...still great.
Hutchinson Black Mamba 2.0 or 2.1
Terrene Elwood 47mm

[gdw]

Nano TCS tires should be ideal for your trip and are designed to work with your rims. Go tubeless and pack the tubes and a patch kit just in case.

PS -This forum has some pretty knowledgeable people but you should contact your riding partner for gear and tire advice if he lives in the region.

[sparky33]

Compass Juniper Ridge 48...soon

[R3awak3n]

Compass Juniper Ridge 48...soon

you trying to blow Weisans whole year tire budget in one go?


but like it was said, if the tired is not tubeless then there is your problem. Does not mean it can't be setup tubeless, it probably can but I would not test it on your backpacking trip.

[weisan]

Compass Juniper Ridge 48...soon

you trying to blow Weisans whole year tire budget in one go?


but like it was said, if the tired is not tubeless then there is your problem. Does not mean it can't be setup tubeless, it probably can but I would not test it on your backpacking trip.

Don't worry, R3 pal, I know long time ago not to follow Sparky into any expensive establishment (read: Firefly) unless I have a fat wallet.

Jay pal has kindly offered me this and I am taking him up on it. They are probably not on par with Thunder Burt but they are a lot cheaper! ;)
https://www.jensonusa.com/Kenda-Karma-Pro-275-Tire

[owly]

Don't worry, R3 pal, I know long time ago not to follow Sparky into any expensive establishment (read: Firefly) unless I have a fat wallet.

Jay pal has kindly offered me this and I am taking him up on it. They are probably not on par with Thunder Burt but they are a lot cheaper! ;)
https://www.jensonusa.com/Kenda-Karma-Pro-275-Tire

I think ThunderBurts are great. Would loan you my Ellwoods as they're just sitting around, but, too far away!

[Jaybee]

For the terrain Weisan is riding, 2.1 to 2.3 and fast rolling is ideal - Thunder Burts would be perfect. You'll want some float through the sand, and there are enough sharp rocks and poky plants that durability matters. Tubeless is pretty important in the desert, IMO.

The Kenda Karmas I sent him aren't quite that big, but they just barely don't fit my frame (1.9 GravelKing SK's are about my max) and will reliably air up tubeless.

Good luck, Wei-pal.

[HenryA]

Put sealant in and ride the bike. If it leaks down after a proper first ride then worry about it. I don’t think it will be a problem.

You can use more air to make sure its all seated properly. Then put in 4 oz. of sealant and ride it. I bet it seals right up.

[weisan]

Appreciate your inputs Henry pal.

[kppolich]

Found the problem on my wheel. It was the the valve core not seating correctly against the rim. I tried new tape (2 layers of Stans) and the valve core still didn't sealed correctly. So, I did some digging and noticed these Orange Seal valve cores have a few options for multiple rim profiles. This is the one I'm most interested in.

http://www.bikepacking.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Orange-Seal-VersaValve_1.jpg

https://content.backcountry.com/images/items/900/OGS/OGS0008/S32MM.jpg

[weisan]

Thanks for that koppo pal.

I really like the pacenti quasi moto. But I don't think there's good solid seal between the bead and the rim, I can tell just by the air leaking out through the sides, relying on the sealant to fill up those gaps is not going to be ideal. As the tire flexes and it will flex a lot especially in the rugged terrain that we ride at, the risk of sealant leak through the side walls is very high. I am not going to risk it. I simply have to accept that the tire /rim combo in this instance is not compatible.

I have tubeless compatible kenda karma tire inbound, hopefully it will get here in time.

[weisan]

http://alicehui.com/bike/NM/tire1.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/NM/tire2.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/NM/tire3.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/NM/tire4.jpg

[weisan]

Everything is inflated nice and round again ...with a tube! . :eek:

I kid I kid :p


Still waiting for the new tubeless compatible tires to come in. In the meantime, I have to get this bike on the road to test my setup for the trip.

http://alicehui.com/bike/NM/IMG_3412.jpg

[weisan]

The Kenda Karmas I sent him aren't quite that big, but they just barely don't fit my frame (1.9 GravelKing SK's are about my max) and will reliably air up tubeless.

Good luck, Wei-pal.

Looking good

[weisan]

http://alicehui.com/bike/Tubeless/IMG_3429.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/Tubeless/IMG_3430.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/Tubeless/IMG_3427.jpg

[guyintense]

This is why you don't put the sealant in until you find where it's leaking. I went through this too, finally figured it was an issue with the tape and rim interface. Also, some of the tape others recommend are permeable.

[weisan]

some of y'all not gonna like to hear this. I went ahead and poured half-a-bottle of Orange Seal in there despite having the "bubbles" - shake it real well, even took it out for a ride....so far, no leaks, holding air. Will see what happens tomorrow morning when I wake up.

[Jaybee]

I think a ton of Orange Seal will probably seal that up, based on the soapy water pictures. Maybe some work that could be done with the tape given all the leakage around the spokes, but I guess you are just at the "go ride it!" stage of the game. Just for the record, many successful tubeless setups have tiny leaks that rely on sealant to get to truly leak-free. You may also see some weepage from the sidewalls as the OS fills up the pores. Not a big deal, as long as you aren't losing air.

Good luck, enjoy your tour, hope those tires work out for you.

[guyintense]

Sure, once you fill the rim with sealant you should be fine.

[weisan]

Happy to report : zero leak overnight.

[MikeD]

Happy to report : zero leak overnight.


Sealant probably got into the rim cavity due to a bad tape job. Good luck getting that stuff out of there.

[oldpotatoe]

Sealant probably got into the rim cavity due to a bad tape job. Good luck getting that stuff out of there.

yup