I think I found the perfect wheels for a legend – FSA RD400

[Kurt]

Yep, I just took delivery of two sets. Quality, workmanship and attention to detail are top-notch. 20/24, hidden spokes, alloy nips. Sort of aero @ 27mm. Spokes look like micro-sapin’s, matte finish – stainless – bigger butts on the non-drive side, wheels are matte black polished with some texture, perfect cnc machined surface, wonderful hub design, interchangeable between campy and sham with an allen, freehub looks like it is carved not cast, QR’s are heavy but extremely well made. These wheels are in every way comparable to velomax or campy and make my 420 look like the junk they are. Wheels are hand made, serialed and calibrated. The ride is exactly like a neutron, the great smooth bearing feel and nice even high-tension only a hand-built or quality wheel has. They do not turn in as fast as a 420, but once in the turn, they carve and are as predictable as a K. They are a comfort, all day in the saddle wheel. I did not have a chance to do any descending, but did take it through some local s turns and they felt great – I cannot imagine they will suck descending, they are just too good a wheel. There is nothing for <$400 that weighs around 1550 that will come close to this wheel, period.

[zap]

Thanks for the report.

Many pre-built wheels are over priced. The problem with building your own is that you just can't purchase a good light aero rim. The FSA RD400 @ +/-$400 look like a good compromise.

[Kurt]

but I love these wheels. Who knows how they will hold up under use, but wheelsmith is behind many aspects of the design and they rather know what they are doing. I cannot imagine anybody not liking the look, quality and performance of this wheel. The shape of the rim has a neat bow to it, really different. I am sure FSA simply wants these to be the new OP, but @ ½ # + <, no matter how they are built. They are giving away these if you ask me.

Thanks for the report.

Many pre-built wheels are over priced. The problem with building your own is that you just can't purchase a good light aero rim. The FSA RD400 @ +/-$400 look like a good compromise.

[saab2000]

Mr. Zap,

You are right that many of the existing pre-built wheels are overpriced. The same argument could be made of Serotta bikes, but I won't go there.

Value is defined partly by what people are willing to pay, and whether the quality (percieved or real) is what people expect.

I seriously lust after a set of Neutron tubular wheels right now!! :D And they are one of the more "reasonably" priced wheels out there among those tried and tested. Never heard a bad word about them.

But the past 10 days has shown me something else cool. Last week I saw a set of the Zipp 202s. They are neato. Today I saw some Bontrager XXX Lites. Mr. Jerk claims they are great. I have no evidence one way or another and if you ask 10 people you will get 10 different answers.

Yesterday I stepped on the scale and weighed "a buck eighty four"! This is more than 30 lbs more than my racing weight of 15 years ago and is one of the main reasons I am not as fast any more. If I can shed some of this I can begin to think of Zipps or Bontragers or Hyperons. Until then, though, I will "punish" myself with my Record hubbed Open Pros.

To the person who said that the price was right for the FSAs for the Legend don't skimp on wheels. They may be superb wheels, but don't save $200 on wheels for a $4,000 bike. Get what you like!

[oracle]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2004/reviews/fsa_wheels_cranks_bb_1

...not that one should put much stock in reviews.

oracle

[Kurt]

but they are $200 off in price and 100gm off in weight. Best used in crits? They are too nice for crits, I would use a K for a crit, much stiffer. This review makes me think they don't really ride and they don't wrench. if you cannot feel the diff between the bearings on an AC and these you are on crack. The AC front micro hub always has movement and there is no adjustment. The only thing AC is good @ is light weight, the stuff is junk.

Conclusion

A great wheel, best suited for criteriums and fast, undulating road races where big gear, out-of-the-saddle sprinting and climbing is common. The clincher option keeps costs down and changes fuss-free when punctures occur. Possibly a tad unforgiving for some as a training wheel, though very light and super-stiff notwithstanding. And very importantly, these hoops did not require any truing after almost three months, nor did they make any unwanted noises. Excellent value at €490 (approx. US$ 580).

Weight: 1450 grams per pair



http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2004/reviews/fsa_wheels_cranks_bb_1

...not that one should put much stock in reviews.

oracle

[Ken Lehner]

They do not turn in as fast as a 420, but once in the turn, they carve and are as predictable as a K. They are a comfort, all day in the saddle wheel.

Some questions, if you please.

What exactly is "turn in"? Forgive me, but I only know "carve" from skiing, and I can't conceive of how a bicycle wheel carves, so you'll have to help me out there, too. What behavior do you predict a wheel to have? Finally, what is it about the wheel (in terms of mechanics) that makes this wheel, or any spoked wheel, "a comfort, all day in the saddle wheel"?

Thanks for the clarifications.

[oracle]

is this a quiz, ken?

[zap]

I guess I'm lucky. My front AC micro front hub is just fine. But I'm looking to replace my rear AC hub soon.

Saab, I'm down to my racing weight so I'm doing justice to my sub 15 lbs, stiff, fine riding rig.

As you say, price comes down to what one is willing to pay. I have to admit that it was a smart move by Mavic, Campy, AC, etc. to only offer "better" technology on prebuilt wheels.

[Ken Lehner]

is this a quiz, ken?

No, I just thought I understood bicycle wheels, and Kurt used all sorts of terms that I didn't understand. I hope it's not a quiz to ask the person what was meant by the words I didn't understand.

As an aside, I did a little test the other day on my bike while it was on the workstand. With the chain on the small ring, I gave the cranks one revolution with my left hand. The rear pickup speedo said >17mph. This was with a rear wheel that weighs about as much as a pair of the FSA wheels. Since it's so easy to accelerate this wheel with just one arm, I can't imagine how anyone can feel a difference in acceleration between any two sets of wheels when pedaling with legs.

[oracle]

it's not so hard, ken.

oracle

[Kurt]

Some questions, if you please.

What exactly is "turn in"?

>>how quickly it turns into the corner which is also in part to how does it react to counter-steer

Forgive me, but I only know "carve" from skiing, and I can't conceive of how a bicycle wheel carves, so you'll have to help me out there, too.

>>how stable and easy it is to hold once in a corner and also how does it react to sudden changes

What behavior do you predict a wheel to have?

>> it will be well behaved or I will ground them

Finally, what is it about the wheel (in terms of mechanics) that makes this wheel, or any spoked wheel, "a comfort, all day in the saddle wheel"?

>> Usually a box design will be more vertically compliant than an aero design. A wheel that has light rim weigh will also be sometimes more vertically compliant, but not always (see zipp) Wheels that are more VC are an all day wheel to me. A legend is an all day frame, a cdale is not – to me.

In addition, you might not notice any difference in these wheels from any other you have tried, depends on what you are tuned into. Many of these terms relate to motorcycle tires, the rims are not flexible like bicycle rims and one if left with the tires making the subtle differences in road feel. My criteria for wheels is I like aero, don’t like bladed spokes, like smooth underway and I like durable with a strong responsible company backing the product. These wheels meet my list except for the unknown durable part. Time will tell.


Thanks for the clarifications.

[va rider]

I am really glad you posted this Kurt.

I have been hunting for new wheels and have been focusing on the Campy Eurus, Velomax Tempest II. I did initially look at the FSA RD400, but there were a few online reviews by riders that were unfavorable.

Please post an update after you have some additional miles on the wheels. The price is excellent.

[Ken Lehner]

how quickly it turns into the corner which is also in part to how does it react to counter-steer

>>how stable and easy it is to hold once in a corner and also how does it react to sudden changes

Usually a box design will be more vertically compliant than an aero design. A wheel that has light rim weigh will also be sometimes more vertically compliant, but not always

What effects this quickness other than gyroscopic forces?

What would cause one wheel to hold a corner better than some other wheel?

Is there more to "vertical compliance" than just spoke tension?

By the way, I've had my AC 350s for about 20 months, and haven't had to true or maintain them yet. I'm 170-175lbs, and have used them on all terrains and in all weather conditions. I've also ridden Specialized Tri-spokes, Spinergy Rev-Xs, Mavic GL330s, and all sorts of Open Pro stuff over the past 20 years. Not sure what I'm "tuned into" or not.

[Kurt]

It sounds like you found your perfect wheels in the AC's - good going.
Happy Trails!

[oracle]

quit trying to lead the guy on, ken. on at least several of these points, about which you are so innocently asking questions for your own claimed edification, you have argued against in the past, at the same time passing yourself off as an expert on bicycle wheels.

oracle

[Kurt]

Do you believe that I am being bated and don’t realize this guy for the xxxx (sorry, need to play by the rules I guess) he appears to be? I did not think so. If he thinks that everything is the same in the world and that all wheels ride the same and you need to be an engineer to notice the difference then just be glad you are you and not him. Have a nice day.


quit trying to lead the guy on, ken. on at least several of these points, about which you are so innocently asking questions for your own claimed edification, you have argued against in the past, at the same time passing yourself off as an expert on bicycle wheels.

oracle

[flydhest]

What effects this quickness other than gyroscopic forces?

What would cause one wheel to hold a corner better than some other wheel?

Is there more to "vertical compliance" than just spoke tension?

By the way, I've had my AC 350s for about 20 months, and haven't had to true or maintain them yet. I'm 170-175lbs, and have used them on all terrains and in all weather conditions. I've also ridden Specialized Tri-spokes, Spinergy Rev-Xs, Mavic GL330s, and all sorts of Open Pro stuff over the past 20 years. Not sure what I'm "tuned into" or not.

Ken, as far as I can tell, you can't get a wheel to deflect in the vertical plane without completely detensioning some spokes, which would cause the wheel to collapse, so now I'm confused with you.

For the cornering, you can get differences in lateral stiffness. As a result, handling in a turn would be different. How big that difference is relative to the difference in tires, for example, I don't know.

[zap]

Fly,

You can deflect a wheel in the verticle plan and yes, you are correct that spokes will lose tension when that happens. That is one reason why spokes break when this cycle is repeated often enough. The amount of lost tension will depend on the amount of deflection and original spoke tension. In extreme cases, with enough deflection the wheel will collapse. Jobst Brandt clearly highlights this in his book on wheelbuilding.

That is why people like Rolf use very high spoke tensions. This allows them to use lighter rims but since spoke tensions are very high to begin with, they won't lose enough tension when the rim deflects to where the spokes fatigue.

I know people that have light rims with minimal spoke tension. One common trait is that they all claim that their wheels have a smooth ride. But those wheels certainly won't last long.

PS

While cornering, you are still dealing with mostly verticle forces.

[Ken Lehner]

quit trying to lead the guy on, ken. on at least several of these points, about which you are so innocently asking questions for your own claimed edification, you have argued against in the past, at the same time passing yourself off as an expert on bicycle wheels.

oracle

There's a lot I don't know about bicycle wheels, and I don't think I've attempted to pass myself off as an expert. I would really have liked Kurt to back up his claims with solid evidence; I would be convinced.

[Kurt]

back up claims? evidence? Yeah, folks that race motogp are concerned about tire compounds and the suspension engineers tech night school, right? god, I know how you buy stereo stuff already, specs not sound – camera’s, features not pictures. Have you ever bought anything lately because it felt a certain way? This was a public service post, you are interested in nothing more than being right and trying to make others look foolish along the way. Please don’t hit the top of the desk when you come up after shooting spitballs from the back of the room.


There's a lot I don't know about bicycle wheels, and I don't think I've attempted to pass myself off as an expert. I would really have liked Kurt to back up his claims with solid evidence; I would be convinced.

[IXXI]

If I can get back to the wheels for a sec...

Does the rear hub have serrated surfaces on _both_ sides-- drive and non-drive?

Asking because if both sides are serrated (like DA and Ultegra and whatever else; unlike Ksyriums and Race X Lites) I might be able to use em on my older Serotta with horizontal dropouts. (Seems I need serrations on both sides to help hold the wheel in so it doesn't shift when you really hit the gas.)

Thanks for any more info. And thanks for the report.

[Kurt]

yes, both sides of the hubs are serrated as are both sides of the qr. again, the attention to detail is amazing. btw, I had this issue with my 00 csi, not good - look at campy qr's, they have a nice wide surface area and the way its clamps down is not a cam, bet it works. also had good luck with the mavic qr. you can also rough up the area with a dremel, but try the qr route first.


If I can get back to the wheels for a sec...

Does the rear hub have serrated surfaces on _both_ sides-- drive and non-drive?

Asking because if both sides are serrated (like DA and Ultegra and whatever else; unlike Ksyriums and Race X Lites) I might be able to use em on my older Serotta with horizontal dropouts. (Seems I need serrations on both sides to help hold the wheel in so it doesn't shift when you really hit the gas.)

Thanks for any more info. And thanks for the report.

[IXXI]

yeah, first I've ever run into this prob. well, first time i've ever had hor. dropouts.

anyway, i thought about the dremel idea, but then figured the metal on the race x lites i had would be too soft to really do the job properly. So off to ebay they go (or classifieds here first) and I'm scouting new wheels a la these that you have.

i appreciate your enthusiastic review, i like the way the wheels look, i think i may have to sport these on the white Serotta soon!

(P.S. Have Joe Young wheels on order for the Legend--they sound absolutely wicked. Report to follow once I get them and roll on em a while.)

[Kurt]

before you do anything, try the campy qr, you do not have to do ANYTHING with a dremel, just put them on. The surface is flat and wide and I am sure they will work. Make sure the drop are clean, use mineral spirts to be sure. take the cheap/easy way first.

yeah, first I've ever run into this prob. well, first time i've ever had hor. dropouts.

anyway, i thought about the dremel idea, but then figured the metal on the race x lites i had would be too soft to really do the job properly. So off to ebay they go (or classifieds here first) and I'm scouting new wheels a la these that you have.

i appreciate your enthusiastic review, i like the way the wheels look, i think i may have to sport these on the white Serotta soon!

(P.S. Have Joe Young wheels on order for the Legend--they sound absolutely wicked. Report to follow once I get them and roll on em a while.)

[IXXI]

will try it, though i'm skeptical (prior experimentation with other skewers; albeit not campy). thanks for the heads up though.

[Kurt]

most other qr's use a cam, they are not as tight when they are home run. What do I get when this works, humm, oregon - close to seattle, seattle - humm, microbrews - yep, beer is what I want! :beer:

will try it, though i'm skeptical (prior experimentation with other skewers; albeit not campy). thanks for the heads up though.

[IXXI]

just so i know... when this happened on your csi, was the non-drive side hub smooth (non-serrated) where it faces the dropout? what wheels were you using? sorry to be so anal here-- just very curious, as you're the first person i've run into with a similar issue.

my race x lites really really really work for me in this set-up (my revived ex-7-11 bike in gallery), but when i jumped on it, the rear wheel slipped once (put the tire into the chainstay) and really freaked me out. turns out i had to have the skewer soooooo tight that that couldn't be good for the bearings.

LBS said it was a serration issue...

i'll try the campy skewers. chorus, record, does it matter?

[Ken Lehner]

back up claims? evidence? Yeah, folks that race motogp are concerned about tire compounds and the suspension engineers tech night school, right? god, I know how you buy stereo stuff already, specs not sound – camera’s, features not pictures. Have you ever bought anything lately because it felt a certain way? This was a public service post, you are interested in nothing more than being right and trying to make others look foolish along the way. Please don’t hit the top of the desk when you come up after shooting spitballs from the back of the room.

I'm not sure I can parse the above, but I'll try. Do I ride? Here are my duathlon results this year (you have my name):

http://www.raceforum.com/2004/rbrmen.jsp (3mi/16mi/3mi)
http://tinyurl.com/3hhqm (45+ division results only)

If you want me to post links to the two TTs I've done, let me know. You probably aren't interested in swim meet results, right?

Have I bought anything lately because it felt a certain way? Actually, not that I can think of. I buy on utility: usefulness, value, durability. I used packing tape to cover the vents on an old helmet instead of paying $100 for a Garneau Prologue, because it's just as aerodynamic (to hell with the look). I covered my PowerTap wheel to make it a disk, because it's just as aerodynamic as the fanciest Zipp disk wheel, at 1/100th the price.

As for "public service", your posts trashed wheels made by a pretty reputable company (American Classic) and made statements about wheels that I had never heard before (my ignorance, I'm sure) like "carve".

Go back and look at my responses. I asked simple questions about what you said, without being nasty. Flydhest attempted to give some real world explanation for cornering behavior, which I appreciate and which gives me something to think about. If you do the same, I'll appreciate the information.

[bostondrunk]

Yes, the drunk-man is gonna give you the answers you seek:

If you want a wheel that looks good and works fine, buy whichever pre-built wheelset you think looks the nicest and you can afford (Ksyriums, ****nergy, FSA, Bontranger, etc.).
If you want the most reliable wheel that works just as well, and is almost as light as the above wheels, but maybe doesn't look quite as fancy, and also costs a lot less (less bragging rights...), buy OP's and DA/Chorus hubs.

If you want light and fast and good looking but not so reliable and very expensive, get some Zipp 404's or 303's.


Either way, the guy next to you with stronger legs is still gonna kick your ass.

There, see how easy that was!

[Roy E. Munson]

Maybe a little off topic, but wheel's for TT's and wheel's for road races are two different beasts.

Again, a little off topic, but most triathlete's I've encountered dabbling in road racing are terrible bike handlers - they couldn't drive a straight stick through a pile of schit!!

[BigMac]

I think Flydhest here raises an interesting point, is there in fact ANY verticle deflection in a quality built wheel? I'm not a physicist or engineer and thus will not attempt any scientific diatribes based on nonsense thats way beyond my minimal comprehension. I would however suggest that if there were in fact any vertical compression at say road patch area (call it 6:00), would that not require some horizontal expansion at both 3:00 and 9:00 positions? Just a hypothication that I'll leave to far smarter folks than I to debate.

Now from a practical standpoint of personal experience I notice a dramatic difference in feel between certain rims and spoke lacing pattern on front wheels. Sticking with a somewhat apples-apples comp, not deviating to composite rims or spokes and always using sewups only, there is considerable difference in feel between a traditional box section rim and a deeper section aero or "v" rim using identical spokes and spoke lacing. Similarly, there is considerable difference in feel between a radial laced front wheel vs. a traidtional 3x pattern, each wheel using similar rim, hub and spoke guage. Why? Is this a product of vertical compliance? I would suggest it is more likely a case of hf vibration energy dissipation, but that's a non scientific hypothication. Radial lacing and deep section rims use shorter spokes which more efficiently transfer hf frequencies than longer, lower tensioned spokes used in box section, 3x patterns. Does that make any sense? I would further suggest there is little torsional load on front wheel, at least in my expereince even during high speed descents at large lean angles. Why? I do not know scientifically however I tend to run my brake blocks very tight to front rim for better brake response yet do not recall ever experiencing brake block rub under any load on a true rim. Then again I have never spent much time on weight weenie rims like GL280, Fiammes, Assos or similar designs.

Rear wheels are a different beast altogether. These are under tremendous torsional load. I know this because I have experienced brake pad rub on many occasions under heavy sprint or climbing and that's with several mm's of brake block clearence at setup. I would still question the vertical movement hypothication, I have never had brake blocks rub tire side walls for example or a tire rub at forward section of a rear fender indicating a horizontal flex at 3:00 position. Now my real question is why some wheels with poor torsional flex characteristics ride so poorly -- harshly to borrow the phrase used by others. I would offer the original Ksyrium sewup wheel as an example. This wheel felt buzzy and harsh over my normal riding terrain compared to my handbuilt 32/36 3x sewup reference wheels using same sewups at similar measured pressures yet under load it was not difficult to induce enough torsional flex from said Ksyrium to cause brake block rub in rear. I rarely experience similar brake block rub with my 36H 3x handbuilt reference wheel. Was this the product of fat bladed spokes? Massive and deeper section rims? FWIW: I have ridden several examples of this same wheel and each time felt very similar. Among the pre-builts, the Campy Nucleon (now named Neutron) is the smoothest riding sewup wheel ime, and reasonably stiff torsionally with good rider form. The Bontrager Race X-Lite ('02 version sewup) is a bit stiffer torsionally and perhaps a touch less smooth but it too is an excellent DC duty wheelset, ime. I also really like the Hyperon for silky smooth ride and very good torsional stiffness however we're talking a whole different price range which I personally feel is waaaaay beyond reasonable w/o any real gains for anyone short of D1 racers.

I realize this is a deviation from the original posters comments regarding a clincher wheelset which i have no experience with, I just thought Flydhest question regarding vertical rim compliance was an interesting one that seemed to go unaddressed. Then again I did not necessarily answer his hypothication, rather I further muddied the waters with more questions for which I am personally unqualified to answer from a scientific/engineering standpoint.

BTW: Discount ANY and ALL wheel mass claims by most firms, that includes rim mass claims as well. There is no industry standard regarding published wheel masses concerning with or w/o QR's, even when such is specified the claims are often laughable versus actual production examples weighed on properly calibrated scales. Mavic rim weight claims are often 8-10% less than reality, just as an example.

Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Kurt]

in general I would say you are right, but when a tri guy or gal does have it together they REALLY have it together. a couple of years back I went to the big island and did some club rides out of the old airport (kona) I thought I was hot sxxx and looked at these guys and though big deal - they trashed me big time - each day I was so spent I just layed on the beach trying to get my hr back. Later found out that all these guys train for the ironman year round - rotating pace lines of 30mph were just a walk in the park to them. Guess the perfect bodies and tans would have given it away. lesson learned.


Maybe a little off topic, but wheel's for TT's and wheel's for road races are two different beasts.

Again, a little off topic, but most triathlete's I've encountered dabbling in road racing are terrible bike handlers - they couldn't drive a straight stick through a pile of schit!!

[Ken Lehner]

I think Flydhest here raises an interesting point, is there in fact ANY verticle deflection in a quality built wheel? I'm not a physicist or engineer and thus will not attempt any scientific diatribes based on nonsense thats way beyond my minimal comprehension. I would however suggest that if there were in fact any vertical compression at say road patch area (call it 6:00), would that not require some horizontal expansion at both 3:00 and 9:00 positions? Just a hypothication that I'll leave to far smarter folks than I to debate.


If we look at the forces acting on the wheel, maybe we can figure this out. When a force is applied at 6 o'clock (dead bottom center), there is a decrease in tension in the few spokes near DBC. There is no change in the tension in the spokes at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock, nor in any other spokes. Without a change in tension, I don't think the rim will change shape.

[Roy E. Munson]

I know world class tri and du guys who would get absolutely smoked in any halfway difficult road race with a decent hill or even a few rollers on it. The changes in pace and the climbing typically do them in. Impressive, though, that they can train for three sports and be as good at them as they are.

[flydhest]

If we look at the forces acting on the wheel, maybe we can figure this out. When a force is applied at 6 o'clock (dead bottom center), there is a decrease in tension in the few spokes near DBC. There is no change in the tension in the spokes at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock, nor in any other spokes. Without a change in tension, I don't think the rim will change shape.

Ken,

Going along, since the spoke is in tension, a decrease in tension doesn't shorten the length of the spoke, it only decreases the tension. Thus, no deformation of the wheel. Before the spoke could compress, it would have to go all the way to 0 tension first.

[Ken Lehner]

Ken,

Going along, since the spoke is in tension, a decrease in tension doesn't shorten the length of the spoke, it only decreases the tension. Thus, no deformation of the wheel. Before the spoke could compress, it would have to go all the way to 0 tension first.

Then Bad Things (TM) happen, right? So we seem to agree that "vertical compliance" doesn't exist in spoked wheels?

What causes differences in cornering performance, if any? I can imagine that deep dishing and differences in hub bearing tolerances could cause some movement of the rim relative to the hub (maybe), but is there more to it?

As for the poor bike handling abilities of multisport athletes, I couldn't agree more, for the most part (I have a background in bike racing and multisport); I won't as a rule do group rides with them. I do know of tri/duathletes who have moved over to bike racing and have done very well in mass-start races.

[zap]

Wrong.

Tension increases as material is streched. Decreasing tension will shorten spokes. No tension at all will bring the spoke back to it's original length. Going past no tension, spokes won't compress, they will bend. All spokes (rim too)behave dynamically when forces change.

All rims will deflect when hiting a bump etc. The amount of deflection will vary depending on rim profile and/or amount of material. Stiff deep V rims can get away with fewer spokes because the rim can transfer loads over a greater distance compared to box section rims.

How do you true a wheel. By increasing and decreasing spoke tension to deflect the rim so it becomes perfecty true :) While the wheel is still on the trueing stand, grab a few spokes and squeeze tight and watch the rim deflect. You'll need a guage to measure verticle deflection but it can be measured. Now remember that forces are much greater when riding your bike.

[flydhest]

Ken,

A slightly contrary view, of course, is that the rim can move laterally even without play in the hubs. I always took this to be changes in the angle of the spokes at the hub flange, though. I'm happy to be corrected here, as I don't really know. It is this lateral movement, however, that I suspect is the difference in feel for cornering. Little movements accomodated or not. Too much and it feels unsafe. Too little, I think, and it skips on uneven surfaces. Of course, getting a good 25c tire at 100 psi instead of a 20c at 130 and you're already in a different ball game.

[Ken Lehner]

Wrong.

Tension increases as material is streched. Decreasing tension will shorten spokes. No tension at all will bring the spoke back to it's original length. Going past no tension, spokes won't compress, they will bend. All spokes (rim too)behave dynamically when forces change.

All rims will deflect when hiting a bump etc. The amount of deflection will vary depending on rim profile and/or amount of material. Stiff deep V rims can get away with fewer spokes because the rim can transfer loads over a greater distance compared to box section rims.

How do you true a wheel. By increasing and decreasing spoke tension to deflect the rim so it becomes perfecty true :) While the wheel is still on the trueing stand, grab a few spokes and squeeze tight and watch the rim deflect. You'll need a guage to measure verticle deflection but it can be measured. Now remember that forces are much greater when riding your bike.

Are you saying that the spokes change length as the tension changes? So if I'm truing a wheel, and loosen a spoke, it will become shorter? Won't that serve to pull the rim closer to the hub, contrary to what I intended to do? I think it is you that is incorrect. Spokes don't stretch/compress, they change tension. Any stretch would be plastic deformation, and would be permanent, yes?

I thought that deep section rims get away with fewer spokes because they are stronger than box section rims, and therefore the spokes can be tensioned higher (indeed, must be tensioned higher).

I thought I true a wheel by moving the nipple on the spoke threads, thereby pulling/pushing the rim closer to/farther from the hub. As for squeezing the spokes, by bending the spokes you are moving the rim and hub closer together by pulling the spoke out of the closest distance between the hub and rim, not by changing the tension or length of the spoke.

Do you agree that when you are riding a bike, the spokes at DBC have less tension than the other spokes?

[Ken Lehner]

Ken,

A slightly contrary view, of course, is that the rim can move laterally even without play in the hubs. I always took this to be changes in the angle of the spokes at the hub flange, though. I'm happy to be corrected here, as I don't really know. It is this lateral movement, however, that I suspect is the difference in feel for cornering. Little movements accomodated or not. Too much and it feels unsafe. Too little, I think, and it skips on uneven surfaces. Of course, getting a good 25c tire at 100 psi instead of a 20c at 130 and you're already in a different ball game.

I don't know, either. What can cause the spoke angles to change? The distance between the flanges? The length of each spoke? There's a triangle there, something has to change length, right?

I also thought that the force on the wheel when cornering was in the plane of the wheel, not tangential to the rim. If it were tangential, we'd see a lot more rolled tubulars. It's the side impacts that taco a wheel or roll a tubular: clip a pedal, skip the wheel; when it hits the ground, you've got your sideways force and a mess.

[bostondrunk]

I have a challenge for all of you who are brainstorming about wheels...

Go on ebay or to your LBS. Buy a set of NOS mavic GL330's, or a GL330 and a GEL280, or get a set of Ambrosio Cronos. All are -tubular- rims. And most can be had cheaper than new Open pro clincher rims.
Get a 32 for the rear, and a 28 for the front. Build them onto your Ultegra/DA/Chorus hubs. Build them with revs and/or sapims and/or plain old double butted spokes.
Glue on a set of decent tubulars, like Conti sprinters or Conti Competitions, pumped up to at least 125.
These will cost you less than half the typical price for Ksyriums.
Go ride. Then tell me how much better you think the 'boutique' pre-built wheels feel....

[Ken Lehner]

I have a challenge for all of you who are brainstorming about wheels...

Go on ebay or to your LBS. Buy a set of NOS mavic GL330's, or a GL330 and a GEL280, or get a set of Ambrosio Cronos. All are -tubular- rims. And most can be had cheaper than new Open pro clincher rims.
Get a 32 for the rear, and a 28 for the front. Build them onto your Ultegra/DA/Chorus hubs. Build them with revs and/or sapims and/or plain old double butted spokes.
Glue on a set of decent tubulars, like Conti sprinters or Conti Competitions, pumped up to at least 125.
These will cost you less than half the typical price for Ksyriums.
Go ride. Then tell me how much better you think the 'boutique' pre-built wheels feel....

Don't have to. When I bought my Serotta in '95, I also got a pair of GL330s on White Industries hubs; glued on a pair of something-or-other 19s. Really, really light. Since I don't want to hassle with tubulars any more, I now use my AC 350 clinchers when I do *serious* climbing.

[zap]

Ken,

All materials can handle a certain amount of elongation before it becomes permanent. I think for most spokes it is over 6%. Alu spokes will have less, hence one reason for the stiffer riding Mavic K's.

A rim will move far more than what changes may occur in spoke length when adjusting tension.

Regarding spokes in dbc, I agree that those spokes will have less tension. That is what I mean by a wheel being "dynamic". As some spokes loose tension, others will increase in tension. At severe loads, spokes at dbc will have zero tension and bend while tension of spokes at 3 & 9 o'clock will increase in tension dramatically. This change in tension is what actually fatigues spokes. This problem is exagerated by the amount of wheel dish required today. Non drive side spokes on conventional wheels don't have enough tension to begin with and can easily go to zero tension.

Deep V rims don't need to have high spoke tensions. Many times it is the hub flange that is the limiting factor.

Now high tension as found on Rolf wheels is desirable. This allows for tension on the non drive side to be high enough where they won't loose enough tension to fatigue. Longer life. Camy's Eurus is an interesting concept as well.

Check out Jobst Brandts book on basic wheelbuilding. It's over 100 pages long and covers a lot of theory.

[BigMac]

Zap:

Now you've really got me scratching me head. Are you suggesting a rim diameter, or circumfrence if you prefer, decreases as we tension wheel during build process? This cannot be true, a circle could not shrink in diameter and still be a circle, no? Now if a rim were delivered out of round, yes its shape would change during build-up (to round and true of course) but honestly only the really bad rims are typically delivered out of round to any considerable degree. Now I suppose if you secured a wheel in a stand and pushed very firmly downward on rim its possible to acheive a very infinitesimile amount of vertical compliance but honestly this wreaks of non-real world testing techniques. Certainly a wheel with tyre mounted and inflated to 100-110psi would never realize such a load excepting for event of crash or severe pothole experience. Under 'normal' circumstances, air volume in tire and tire sidewall flex dissipates any vertical loads encountered loooong before any realized vertical wheel compliance, no? I suspect most of the wire-on riders would suffer a rather severe pinch flat long before any vertical wheel compliance would be exhibitted in actual riding experience, heck i'd probably blowout the tire casing of my sewup before such a severe load were encountered to cause such a wheel deflection. Its my understanding that as we tension spokes, the spoke itself elongates, there is in fact no deflection or change in rim circumfrence. To further illustrate this, 14g. spokes require less feel to acheive tension while smaller guage and butted spokes seem to take more patience, at least ime. Just my completely non-scientifically trained viewpoint.

Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[zap]

Bostondrunk,

Had GL330 laced to mavic hubs 15 years ago. 32 front and rear. Nice ride.

But the wheels didn't last to long. Rim was to soft and spokes started busting. I weighed about 160 then.

The Matrix ISO wheelset I had built then by the same people was much better. Yes it rode a little rougher but it was great in a sprint and lasted much longer.

[zap]

BigMac,

Now you bring up another interesting dynamic. But to answer your first question, no the rim will not shrink in diameter. It will change shape verticaly or laterally.

Tire pressure puts an incredible amount of pressure on the wheel. So with the wheel just sitting there with 100-140psi, there is a lot of force at play already. More force than with you sitting on the wheel. Now add the additional force of a wheel striking a pot hole with a 180lbs rider.

You are right that it is easier to build a wheel with 14g spokes. Conventional bladed spokes are easy too. It's a bear using revo or ti spokes because these spokes stretch more than straight 14 g spokes. But those thin/stretchy spoked wheels do ride nice :)

[Tom]

that wrote that you don't hold the hub up with the lower spokes, you hang the hub off the upper spokes.

What difference does that make? Hell if I know. I figured I'd just throw some useless information into the pot and stir it around a bit.

First day with a new brain. It's fun playing around with it.

[Roy E. Munson]

bostondrunk,

what type of wheel's do you ride?

[Ken Lehner]

Ken,

Regarding spokes in dbc, I agree that those spokes will have less tension. That is what I mean by a wheel being "dynamic". As some spokes loose tension, others will increase in tension. At severe loads, spokes at dbc will have zero tension and bend while tension of spokes at 3 & 9 o'clock will increase in tension dramatically. Check out Jobst Brandts book on basic wheelbuilding. It's over 100 pages long and covers a lot of theory.
...
This change in tension is what actually fatigues spokes

Here's a direct quote from Jobst Brandt:

"As I already mentioned, this does not cause a tension increase in other
spokes because the deformation takes place at the ground contact only
and relaxes these spokes. There is little change in diameter under
such a load so the remaining spokes have no significant increase in
tension any different in distribution from normal loads."

And again, in a response to a claim like yours above:

"> Intermittent slackening under load is one of the chief causes of spoke
> breakage and wheel reliability problems.

It may be the cause of spokes unscrewing to affect trueness and wheel
collapse for lack of tension, but it does not increase spoke failure.
Spoke failure is caused by fatigue cracking at high tensile stress
locations, typically at spoke threads and elbows."

I think these contradict your statements.

[Ken Lehner]

that wrote that you don't hold the hub up with the lower spokes, you hang the hub off the upper spokes.

What difference does that make? Hell if I know. I figured I'd just throw some useless information into the pot and stir it around a bit.

First day with a new brain. It's fun playing around with it.

Actually, the wheel stands on the bottom spokes. Wrap your new brain around that one!

[zap]

Ken

Please don't cut and past quotes.

I'm not sure where you got your Brandt quote. But I did find one in his book that is close.

"Although this increase in diameter is accompanied by an increase in tension, the change is about 25 times smaller than the deflection of the rim in the flattened area".

Note: I highlighted increase for emphasis.

As I understand the quote, spokes are, by increasing tension, keeping rim deflection to a minimum.

I stand corrected when I stated that tension increases "dramatically" in spokes at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions. But it is clear that where some spokes will loose tension, the rest of the spokes will compensate.

Regardless, there are enough changes going on in wheels for riders who ride regularly to form an opinion on feel.

Regarding spoke breakage, I'm not sure how I differ from what your Brandt quote states.

One other note regarding my response to BigMac. Specifically, it is tubulars that put quite a bit of pressure on rims.

Mr. Lehner, you may have the last word.

[Too Tall]

Burp rulz.

Meanwhile back at the ranch. I have a set of Dave Thomas built wheels coming. Sent him a set of DA hubs I had cluttering up the shop and he'll do his light spoke deal laced 32 X to an Velocity Escape tubular rim. Voila' the tub version of our defacto standard 32XOP setup that's served so many for so long.

Should be here just in time for a road race with a nasty gravel section that usually takes out 1/3 of the field hehehe.

[bostondrunk]

Munson,

I ride a variety of wheels, all tubular. Gluing a tubular is a joke for anyone who has taken the time to do a couple of them, and they simply ride better.

[Roy E. Munson]

I hate gluing tubulars, they are a pain in the ass to get off on the roadside if you flat. If you can tear off a tubular on the side of the road in a few seconds, it wasn't glued correctly. Not enough return for me for the investment in time and effort to run tubulars.

[bostondrunk]

[Roy E. Munson]

Some like them, some don't. I don't want to be on the roadside undoing skewers and goofing around with keys to get a tire off. You don't mind running a serated key along the edge of your carbon aero wheel's?

[saab2000]

... a set of Neutrons with Veloflex tubulars!!!

[bostondrunk]

[Too Tall]

...quietly putting my race wheels back in the nice nylon bags hoping no one will notice....slink. duly admonished.

[Roy E. Munson]

[bostondrunk]

[Roy E. Munson]

[bostondrunk]

[Roy E. Munson]

[bostondrunk]

[Roy E. Munson]

[bostondrunk]

[Needs Help]

I recently read "The Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt, and it addresses a lot of the questions brought up in this thread. Personally, I don't think I can recommend the book for wheel building. The wheel building part is only about 10 pages long, and all that information is probably on the internet. The rest of the book is a fairly rigorous discussion of the various forces on the bicycle wheel--but maybe if you appreciate those better, it can help you build better wheels by not using spoke patterns, rims, or spokes that aren't appropriate.

I would however suggest that if there were in fact any vertical compression at say road patch area (call it 6:00), would that not require some horizontal expansion at both 3:00 and 9:00 positions? Just a hypothication that I'll leave to far smarter folks than I to debate.
... rim deflection in the load-affected zone(ed. the 6.00 o'clock position) is exaggerated so that what is actually a slight flattening appears as a smooth dent in the rim. The illustration shows that the diameter of the rest of the rim is slightly enlarged with small bulges at the ends of the flattened area. The increased diameter results from flattening the arch of the rim at its bottom. This increase in diameter causes a small and insignificant increase in spoke tension--less than 4% of the change experienced by the spokes in the load-affected zone. Because the increase in diameter is uniformly distributed around the rest of the wheel....(The Bicycle Wheel,3rd Ed., p 19, figure 7)

Ken, as far as I can tell, you can't get a wheel to deflect in the vertical plane without completely detensioning some spokes,
According to Jobst Brand, as compression on the wheel increases, the rim deflects and the spoke tension decreases in the load affected zone(6 o'clock). As zap mentioned, failure will occur when the compression on the rim is enough so that spoke tension decreases to zero. "With tension, wires can support compression loads up to the point where they become slack." (The Bicycle Wheel, p.7) As you might suspect, compression loads on the rim aren't the only forces acting on the wheel. For instance, braking causes rim deflection and also changes spoke tensions.(for illustrations of the rim deflection due to various forces, see pages 18-28 of The Bicycle Wheel)

When a force is applied at 6 o'clock (dead bottom center), there is a decrease in tension in the few spokes near DBC. There is no change in the tension in the spokes at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock, nor in any other spokes. Without a change in tension, I don't think the rim will change shape.
The quoted passages above support the notion that the rim does change shape at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock, and therefore the tension in the spokes also changes at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock. I think the rim is much more dynamic than you describe in that when forces act anywhere on the wheel every part of the rim is affected and therefore every spoke is affected.

Going along, since the spoke is in tension, a decrease in tension doesn't shorten the length of the spoke, it only decreases the tension.
Spokes that become tighter pull, and the ones that become looser push the rim around. The pulling spokes stretch and become longer, and the pushing spokes compress and become shorter. The rim bulges inward at the pulling spokes and outward at the pushing spokes...(The Bicycle Wheel, p. 24)

Are you saying that the spokes change length as the tension changes?
Spokes are elastic like everything else. Elasticity is just a continuum with some materials more elastic than others. For instance, wire spokes are more elastic than wooden spokes and less elastic than rubber bands.

Although swaged spokes are more expensive to manufacture and slightly more difficult to true, they give more durable wheels because they are more elastic than straight gauge spokes. Their thin midsections stretch more, and they can be made just as tight as straight gauge spokes. Under load, they resist loosening better than straight spokes because they allow greater rim deformation before becoming slack.(The Bicycle Wheel, p.48)

Any stretch would be plastic deformation, and would be permanent, yes?
A material can stretch without reaching plastic deformation. It's beyond the elastic limit when the material undergoes plastic deformation. Unlike elastic deformation, plastic deformation is not recoverable, i.e. the change is permanent.

So if I'm truing a wheel, and loosen a spoke, it will become shorter? Loosening a spoke makes it effectively longer and reducing the tension makes it shorter.
Wire spokes stretch, but not that much. Tightening a spoke doesn't make it stretch an equal amount so that tension can never be achieved with the rim. So, when you tighten a spoke you shorten its length overall. When you loosen a spoke, less tension remains in the spoke so it is stretching less, but it gets longer overall.

This cannot be true, a circle could not shrink in diameter and still be a circle, no?
You seem to be suggesting all circles have the same diameter, which I'm sure you are aware is not true.

Now if a rim were delivered out of round, yes its shape would change during build-up (to round and true of course) but honestly only the really bad rims are typically delivered out of round to any considerable degree.
Every time you tighten or loosen a spoke it affects the roundness of the rim. I've never built a wheel, but in descriptions I've read, you constantly have to switch from adjusting lateral trueness(side to side) to adjusting round trueness(up and down). Wheel truing stands have guides for side to side truing as well as up and down truing. Just because your wheel is perfectly centered in the brake calipers doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true. For instance, an oval could be centered side to side between the brakes, but it would not be considered "true".

Under 'normal' circumstances, air volume in tire and tire sidewall flex dissipates any vertical loads encountered loooong before any realized vertical wheel compliance, no?
Tires feel a force and part of that force is transferred to the rim and spokes. Jobst Brandt says, as a practical matter, you can measure those transmitted forces with a spoke tensionometer, but for precise measurements you have to use mathematical models using finite element analysis.

As far as wheel stiffness goes, Jobst Brandt claims:

Stiff wheels are often mentioned with approval. However, it should be noted that a bicycle wheel is so rigid that its elasticity is not discernible because the tires, handlebar stem, frame, and saddle have a much greater combined elasticity. Therefore, the differences among well constructed wheels are imperceptible to a rider. The "liveliness" attributed to "stiff" wheels is an acoustic phenomenon caused largely by lightweight tires at high pressure and tight spokes with a high resonant frequency. This mechanical resonance can be heard, and possibly felt in the handlebars, but it is not related to wheel stiffness.(The Bicycle Wheel, p. 37)

However, since so many people post about the differences in how wheels feel, I think maybe the human body is sensitive enough to discern the small changes in ride from the wheels.

[gasman]

Great post.
I understand bicycle wheels a bit better now... there is a lot more I don't know than I do know.
Thanks.

[Kurt]

FSA is buying back both sets of wheels from me and the SO - tons of problems, dozens of broken spokes, wheels go out of true all the time (internal nips – yuck!) my rear rim cracked in over 8 places @ the drillings, braking surface not level, rusted QR's, broke the lever off a QR, bowed shape to the rim that can be ruined with the pad holder if too worn - you name it I had it happen with these puppies. Good news is fsa is a top flight organization that stands behind the product 100% and this could be an isolated incident so the wheels might be viable to someone else. If you have these wheels, I suggest you clean off the area near the holes and carefully check under a strong light – its easy to miss and you could, well like die with a failure of this type if it happened at speed.

[RichMc]

YIKES! I think I'll stick with my Campy Eurus wheels. Never had a problem with some Velomax Circuits but other friends of mine that run the Ascents & Orions have had some issues. Velomax (Easton now BTW) stepped right to fix those. Whatever, the next ones will be Campy again. Good to read all these reports.

[Ray]

FSA is buying back both sets of wheels from me and the SO - tons of problems, dozens of broken spokes, wheels go out of true all the time (internal nips – yuck!) my rear rim cracked in over 8 places @ the drillings, braking surface not level, rusted QR's, broke the lever off a QR, bowed shape to the rim that can be ruined with the pad holder if too worn - you name it I had it happen with these puppies. Good news is fsa is a top flight organization that stands behind the product 100% and this could be an isolated incident so the wheels might be viable to someone else. If you have these wheels, I suggest you clean off the area near the holes and carefully check under a strong light – its easy to miss and you could, well like die with a failure of this type if it happened at speed.

I missed this thread the first time around back in May, but I have two sets of these wheels that I've ridden all of this past season and didn't have any trouble with either set (except that the QRs have been recalled, but I didn't have any trouble with those either). I've seen mixed reviews on different sites, but I have 2-3,000 miles on each set and they're as good as new. That's not a lot of miles, and I'm relatively easy on equipment, but they're not disintegrating under me yet.

-Ray

[Alan Schietzsch]

Is there more to "vertical compliance" than just spoke tension?.

Yes, the spoke diameter (assuming the same tension is compared) changes compliance, and rim profile has a lot to do with it, too.

Before you lace any spokes, press down on the top of a deep rim like a CXP30 or Velocity Deep-V. It hardly flexes, maintaining a nice circle. Push down on a shallow rim like an Open 4CD or Ambrosio Nemesis, and it will become elliptical until you release the pressure. That's why the Nemesis is so widely used in the cobbles. Comfort from compliance.

Now add spokes. Straight gauge 2.0mm's don't flex much vertically. But a 2.0-1.5-2.0 can "spring" as the middle section is more elastic. That allows the rim to flex more, as above. We use Open 4CD's with spokes for cyclocross (with lighter riders) for that very reason.

But all this doesn't matter THAT much. Wheels don't flex a lot compared to the tire. My belief is that tire section and pressure has a vastly bigger effect.

Now, back to the FSA's: the total weight is low, but where is it located? Nipples even further out at the rim mean it's harder to accelerate.

Try out a Cane Creek wheelset and you might be pleasantly surprised - they have less mass out where you feel it, and more at the hub where it doesn't matter. That difference makes them feel and ride as if they're lighter than they are, and they are reliable, too.

[stevep]

i missed this thread also.
i use fsa 210 wheels, which are the wheels below this in the line.
i have used the wheels 2 seasons w/ probably 6k on them.
thye have been perfect for me so far.
i like them a lot. theya re a little heavier than the 400s w/ a slighlty deeper dish rim but i thk the hubs are the same.

my guess. the wheels you had were early production...must have been some issues to work out.
ric hjertberg develops the wheel program at fsa and he is a very knowledgeable and astute wheel man.

[DarkStar]

back up claims? evidence? Yeah, folks that race motogp are concerned about tire compounds and the suspension engineers tech night school, right? god, I know how you buy stereo stuff already, specs not sound – camera’s, features not pictures. Have you ever bought anything lately because it felt a certain way? This was a public service post, you are interested in nothing more than being right and trying to make others look foolish along the way. Please don’t hit the top of the desk when you come up after shooting spitballs from the back of the room.
LOL, said what I was thinking :D

[Kurt]

i missed this thread also.
i use fsa 210 wheels, which are the wheels below this in the line.
i have used the wheels 2 seasons w/ probably 6k on them.
thye have been perfect for me so far.
i like them a lot. theya re a little heavier than the 400s w/ a slighlty deeper dish rim but i thk the hubs are the same.

my guess. the wheels you had were early production...must have been some issues to work out.
ric hjertberg develops the wheel program at fsa and he is a very knowledgeable and astute wheel man.

FSA took several sets back from us, they sucked

[stevep]

FSA took several sets back from us, they sucked

for you.
not for me.

[csm]

I like my ac 350s. no problems yet. only on the 3rd year for them though.

[Kurt]

for you.
not for me.

thats what I said, the 400s sucked for me/us and they took back like 3 pair - good customer service