Enve did poorly in this rim review

[Tony]

These are high priced wheels. So much for US made carbon rims being superior to ones made in China/Taiwan :)
Poor excuses from Enve follows.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-enve-m735e-wheelset.html

[pasadena]

These are high priced wheels. So much for US made carbon rims being superior to ones made in China/Taiwan :)
Poor excuses from Enve follows.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-enve-m735e-wheelset.html

I'm not surprised he toasted carbon wheels with a e-mtb.

First, using carbon wheels with a e-bike is dumb.
Second, why are you so happy ENVE got a bad review?
Third, ENVE gave a reasonable statement.

And this tester basically says all carbon wheels suck for his uses. I agree.

"I have lots of opinion on carbon fiber parts, and I understand many people have absolutely no problems using Enve wheelsets and other carbon products. I rarely choose to use carbon wheels, but these two failures added to two other catastrophic failures I have had with carbon wheels in the past."

Maybe ENVE are expensive because they strive to be industry leading, and pay everyone a living wage... in the USA.
In an age where every other company is slapping a USA flag on Chinese product, I rate ENVE for actually doing it here.

I don't think that means everyone needs to buck up and buy ENVE but it doesn't say anything good or bad about Chinese wheels.

[Davist]

I'm not surprised he toasted carbon wheels with a e-mtb.

First, using carbon wheels with a e-bike is dumb.
Second, why are you so happy ENVE got a bad review?
Third, ENVE gave a reasonable statement.

And this tester basically says all carbon wheels suck for his uses. I agree.

"I have lots of opinion on carbon fiber parts, and I understand many people have absolutely no problems using Enve wheelsets and other carbon products. I rarely choose to use carbon wheels, but these two failures added to two other catastrophic failures I have had with carbon wheels in the past."

Maybe ENVE are expensive because they strive to be industry leading, and pay everyone a living wage... in the USA.
In an age where every other company is slapping a USA flag on Chinese product, I rate ENVE for actually doing it here.

I don't think that means everyone needs to buck up and buy ENVE but it doesn't say anything good or bad about Chinese wheels.

UH, the M735E is designed for E bikes (that's what the E means), so it's reasonable to assume they'd be "fit to purpose". Agreed I wouldn't use carbon on an ebike (or have an ENVE budget for anything :) ) but this is clearly an issue with the product, regardless of zip code that product is made, no?

[ColnagoC59]

I went Bora for my first carbon wheels. I don't know where they are made. seems the user experience is better. It really doesn't matter what country the product is made in. What matters is if the company has engaged in the proper quality control procedures. I've long wondered with all the changes Enve is going through how that's working out. I hate drawing conclusions based on anecdotal evidence but it does seem like there are more negative Enve posts on the web. Could just mean there are more Enve wheels out there too

[peanutgallery]

Enve quality has been way down for a while, this shouldn't be a surprise to many

[vincenz]

I never believed their rims were any better than other high end rims. Place of manufacture doesn’t have everything to do with quality. Most of Enve’s pricing comes from perceived brand quality and having to pay USA workers’ wages.

[kppolich]

you can't expect carbon bicycle wheels to last on a motorcycle. I don't care who makes it.

[wooly]

Enve quality has been way down for a while, this shouldn't be a surprise to many



Can you elaborate? The pinkbike review was the first I’ve seen besides one off user comments.

[PaMtbRider]

Enve quality has been way down for a while, this shouldn't be a surprise to many

Just their wheels or across their other products as well?

[AngryScientist]

i dont know? calling the riding they did in that article a "test" is a bit of a stretch, and doesnt really tell us much i dont think. they rode an expensive set of carbon wheels pretty hard, subjected them to some circumstantial abuse and broke a few wheels.

quite circumstantial, and there is nothing to suggest other wheels of different manufacture would have held up any better in the same exact situation.

i dont think any serious conclusions can be drawn from that article either way.

[93KgBike]

My iPhone has "Designed by Apple in CA. Assembled in China" printed on the back. Is it a "cheap" phone? No.

Chinese made wheels aren't "cheap", they are inexpensive, because Chinese labor earn ~$3.60/hr on average, and because 最高质量的自行车零件 doesn't have brand recognition, or even meaning, in the American market.

That's probably why Chinese capital is acquiring Mavic and ENVE.

Then we'll be paying top dollar for those same "Designed in America. Assembled in China" wheels.

[Tony]

i dont know? calling the riding they did in that article a "test" is a bit of a stretch, and doesnt really tell us much i dont think. they rode an expensive set of carbon wheels pretty hard, subjected them to some circumstantial abuse and broke a few wheels.

quite circumstantial, and there is nothing to suggest other wheels of different manufacture would have held up any better in the same exact situation.

i dont think any serious conclusions can be drawn from that article either way.


Really? Three wheels, all defective?

"was greeted upon landing with a complete front wheel failure: the rim snapped"

"Enve sent a new replacement rim from the US and it was built up by a local shop mechanic. I added the PRS to the wheel myself and was subsequently stabbed in the finger by a carbon fiber that was protruding from the outside edge of the rim. On closer inspection, there were a number of similar strands of fiber sticking out."

"The PRS also split when removing the valve stem from the original rim and had to be patched with tape for a reliable seal."

"Without warning, there was another huge crack which resulted in a near-instant loss of pressure in the rear tire"

"starting to sound really, really, bad at this point, but we are not quite finished. Another replacement rim was sent from Enve...there was one annoying piece of something rattling around the inside the rim which I couldn't get out. The spoke holes weren't drilled out centrally, and there were more loose fiber strands in each spoke hole - whether or not this would make any difference to the ride or not is hard to say, but at this point, I was done."

"trails I ride often, with similar bikes and pressures I was using in other test scenarios. I was also riding my usual speed and style, which rarely does a similar amount of damage."

I have personally seen two Enve wheels fail last summer, both failures should not have happened.* DT Swiss carbon rim survived a DOWN HILL race run from Aaron Gwin with no tire, these wheels from Enve could not last one day!

[Davist]

My iPhone has "Designed by Apple in CA. Assembled in China" printed on the back. Is it a "cheap" phone? No.

Chinese made wheels aren't "cheap", they are inexpensive, because Chinese labor is paid <$0.20/hr, and because 最高质量的自行车零件 doesn't have brand recognition, or even meaning, in the American market.

That's probably why Chinese capital is acquiring Mavic and ENVE.

Then we'll be paying top dollar for those same "Designed in America. Assembled in China" wheels.

Less than US $0.20 is a myth, here's some data from last year (around $3.60 avg): https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/27/chinese-wages-rise-made-in-china-isnt-so-cheap-anymore.html Yes, it's less than US or EU wages..

To the point, though, quality isn't dependent on a Xiamen or an Utah zip code.. and the E series wheels were DESIGNED for eBikes (hence the E) so hard not to conclude ENVE doesn't have a quality issue here.

[Tony]

I'm not surprised he toasted carbon wheels with a e-mtb.

First, using carbon wheels with a e-bike is dumb.
Second, why are you so happy ENVE got a bad review?
Third, ENVE gave a reasonable statement.


First, The wheels are designed for a E bike?

Second, the smiley face was for those who think US made is better than Chinese. Where made has nothing to do with quality

Third, Enve stating fiber peel and imperfectly drilled spoke holes are not good, however we're "not perfect, sometimes people make mistakes" is a poor response. Also stating "but this is not the experience that our customers are having" is BS.
Bringing Chris King into the picture stating they "are not inexpensive and drive the cost of the wheelset" is poor form, why even bring Chris King up.

[vincenz]

Not to bash USA cycling products, but overall I have not had great experiences with them, so I avoid buying them now. I find their overall attention to detail and quality control just are not there compared to their European or Asian counterparts. This is about large scale manufacturers, not the small indie custom guys. Small scale USA framebuilders for example put out great work.

[seanile]

ENVE should have Danny test their rims like he did Santa Cruz's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfjjiHGuHoc

[Tony]

ENVE should have Danny test their rims like he did Santa Cruz's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfjjiHGuHoc

This video convinced me to try carbon mtb wheels! Currently using E thirteen and no problems in any condition.

[Sjambok]

ENVE should have Danny test their rims like he did Santa Cruz's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfjjiHGuHoc

I was thinking the same thing before I saw your post!

[pdmtong]

McLean Quality Composites then Edge then Enve has long been an aspirational carbon darling, in part fueled byt the "made in USA" and premium pricing (costs more, must be better).

I have no beef with Enve but I my general impression is that at least for road carbon rims, their braking isn't universally lauded. And while my mind is over the bridge for carbon disc mtb rims my wallet isn't.

So why Enve? well, it's the high end choice if you want wheels built to your configuration (spokes, count, hubs). Not sure pricing relative to Boyd.

For road I could not rationalize spending >2x on Enve over a stock Bora. I did not perceive any benefit of enve over bora wrt to the base attributes - performance weight strength or cost.

[dbnm]

Doesn't Mavic own Enve?

[benb]

Amusingly you could buy Carbon wheels for "real" motorcycles a long time ago, so the idea that carbon wheels are not for motorcycles is silly.

I don't know why Enve would want to be in this market anyway.

I think eBikes have a place on commuter bikes, city bikes, etc.. but the whole market of "electric dirt bike masquerading as a bicycle to get on the trails that forbid off road vehicles" is a weird market. Hopefully it goes the way of Cannondale dirt bikes. :rolleyes:

As typical with the bike industry the pricing is just insane. What kind of total price are you looking at for an eBike that has $3000 rims? You can get actual complete off road motorcycles (or dual sports) for not much more, and those tend to be REALLY nice. The engineering hours, manufacturing complexity, and quality control are just on another planet compared to bikes. And this is motorcycles, not cars, so it's not like they are making 1000x more of them than bikes.

[billspreston]

^ Not to derail the conversation too far, but I was in a very high end bike shop in Northern Italy (Alps) and he told me the biggest segment they sell by far is high end Mountain E-bikes. He explained that there are a lot of people that love going downhill on mountain bikes, but significantly less that enjoy going uphill. So this high end e-bike segment is a definite reality as people can enjoy themselves going downhill on great trails while making the uphill part less of a struggle. It's not for me, but I can absolutely understand the popularity and why ENVE made these wheels. Unfortunately it seems they may have failed at that task :eek:

[billspreston]

And to pile on with some first-hand experience. Here's some non-textured ENVE road wheels I witnessed get destroyed by a friend on a hard descent. Thankfully the tire/tube stayed on the rim. My understanding is that they've since changed the resins used so this sort of thing doesn't happen any longer.

Warped, blistered, delaminated, etc...

https://i.imgur.com/uTIPNTS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BPXqtdp.jpg

[stien]

Smart indeed.

I could never quite wrap my brain around using carbon rims for rim brakes, especially in racing. Yet lining up I'd hear the telltale zinnnnggg of people slowing down at start of each race. You could smell the brakes around each corner.

[benb]

Carbon wheels are one of the strangest success stories in our sport IMO...

Not very much performance benefit in an awful lot of real world situations and some big negatives.

I am not down on eBikes.. minus the cost the more I think of it they'd be a great solution for me. My commute is super annoying in the car, but it's hard to stay organized with the family schedule for bike commuting. I can ride my bike to work in the same time or better than driving the car, but it's not long enough to count as a solid cycling workout, yet it is long enough to guarantee sweating enough to need a shower. And taking the shower at work is not time effective.

I totally get the idea that the ski/snowboard/dirt bike crowd would want to cross right over to expensive eMTBs, just not my thing at all. Getting up the hill under my own power is a large amount of the fun for me.

[johnniecakes]

Forget the failures and focus on the stray fibers sticking out from the resin and the spoke holes mis drilled. That indicates to me sloppy manufacturering, poor QC, and a general lack of respect of the customers dollars. No one even bothered to check rims that were going out on a warranty claim. Does anyone at Enve care or pay attention?

[Mark McM]

Smart indeed.

I could never quite wrap my brain around using carbon rims for rim brakes, especially in racing. Yet lining up I'd hear the telltale zinnnnggg of people slowing down at start of each race. You could smell the brakes around each corner.

Especially odd, when there are many rims that combine carbon (for deep aerodynamic shapes) and aluminum (for brake tracks and mounting clincher tires). These hybrid/aluminum rims have essentially all the aerodynamic benefits of full carbon rims, and in clincher form weigh only a little bit more than full carbon clincher rims. All while maintaining the better braking performance and reliability of aluminum rims. But because these rims also typically cost less, they are seen as a "poor man's" product, even though in most ways they are superior to full carbon rims.

[Blown Reek]

Carbon wheels are one of the strangest success stories in our sport IMO...

Not very much performance benefit in an awful lot of real world situations and some big negatives.

Might want to change that to carbon clinchers. The issues that plague carbon wheels (and I'm not talking about braking) aren't issues on tubulars.

[dddd]

The weight of the hybrid wheels isn't on the same planet as full-carbon wheels, and a lot of racers are willing to pay a high dollars-per-gram price for weight reduction, especially near the outer periphery of the wheels and tires.

The brake-track overheating has decreased over the years due to rim and brake pad advances, though the heavier riders descending long, steep hills can be a concern for any rim-braked bike I would think.

The hybrid-construction wheels are something I have recommended to quite a few riders who had braking concerns or had cracked rims near the spoke nipples in the past. Hopefully Shimano gets well into contemporary rim widths and shapes with their RS80-level wheelsets.

[Mark McM]

Might want to change that to carbon clinchers. The issues that plague carbon wheels (and I'm not talking about braking) aren't issues on tubulars.

Maybe the tag line for carbon rims should be:

"Carbon rims always go faster - even when braking!"

[dddd]

Maybe the tag line for carbon rims should be:

"Carbon rims always go faster - even when braking!"

Very true!

And a timely argument for the disc-braked option as well, not that I'm going there.

[Mark McM]

The weight of the hybrid wheels isn't on the same planet as full-carbon wheels, and a lot of racers are willing to pay a high dollars-per-gram price for weight reduction, especially near the outer periphery of the wheels and tires.

It is true that for tubulars, hybrid rims can't match the weight of carbon rims. But most riders today use clincher tires. For clinchers, the weight differences are much smaller. Here's examples of clincher wheels from 3 different companies, arranged from lightest to heaviest:

Zipp 404 NSW Clinchers (full carbon): Rim depth - 58mm; weight per set - 1620 grams
HED Jet 6+ (hybrid): Rim depth - 60mm; weight per set - 1698 grams
Boyd 60mm Carbon Clinchers (full carbon): Rim depth - 60mm; weight per set - 1740 grams

As you can see, the hybrid wheels are right in the mix with full carbon clinchers when it comes to weight.

The brake-track overheating has decreased over the years due to rim and brake pad advances, though the heavier riders descending long, steep hills can be a concern for any rim-braked bike I would think.

Brake heat is only part of the issue. Carbon brake tracks in general don't give as consist braking performance as does aluminum, especially in the wet. And then when you consider some of the aluminum brake track enhancement applications, such as the HED Black series of rims, carbon rims don't give anywhere near the same braking performance.

[benb]

The brake track thing is by FAR the biggest thing that makes me look at carbon wheels, look at my bank account, and go "Nope, I'll keep that $2-3k for something else."

I have yet to be on a group ride, event, whatever and ever see a case where someone on carbon wheels with rim brakes looks like they are getting good braking performance. I have seen many instances where it looks like it takes them 2X the stopping distance I need and I think I'm about to see someone get killed by a car.

The performance benefits are mild but the braking issues are not mild IMO.

People can argue about weight or aero till the cows come home, for me I know neither of those things are really going to make a big difference for me versus how I feel on a given day and how prepared I am for a given ride.

Maybe most of those times I've seen people have horrible stopping distance they weren't on the best carbon rims, or they didn't have the optimal brake pad material for their particular rim.. but I also have talked to many riders who chose what carbon wheels they were on based on a deal they could get rather than what was the most performant rim/safest rim. Getting on a carbon wheel so they check off having carbon wheels seemed to be the important part vs the actual performance of the wheelset and it's applicability for their particular riding conditions.

[vincenz]

The brake track thing is by FAR the biggest thing that makes me look at carbon wheels, look at my bank account, and go "Nope, I'll keep that $2-3k for something else."

I have yet to be on a group ride, event, whatever and ever see a case where someone on carbon wheels with rim brakes looks like they are getting good braking performance. I have seen many instances where it looks like it takes them 2X the stopping distance I need and I think I'm about to see someone get killed by a car.

The performance benefits are mild but the braking issues are not mild IMO.

People can argue about weight or aero till the cows come home, for me I know neither of those things are really going to make a big difference for me versus how I feel on a given day and how prepared I am for a given ride.

Maybe most of those times I've seen people have horrible stopping distance they weren't on the best carbon rims, or they didn't have the optimal brake pad material for their particular rim.. but I also have talked to many riders who chose what carbon wheels they were on based on a deal they could get rather than what was the most performant rim/safest rim. Getting on a carbon wheel so they check off having carbon wheels seemed to be the important part vs the actual performance of the wheelset and it's applicability for their particular riding conditions.



Maybe for older wheels, but if you have purchased carbon wheels in the last few years, a lot of them now have textured brake tracks and improved materials and brake pads. The current gen boras I am on brake better than any alloy rims I have ever ridden.

[yinzerniner]

It is true that for tubulars, hybrid rims can't match the weight of carbon rims. But most riders today use clincher tires. For clinchers, the weight differences are much smaller. Here's examples of clincher wheels from 3 different companies, arranged from lightest to heaviest:

Zipp 404 NSW Clinchers (full carbon): Rim depth - 58mm; weight per set - 1620 grams
HED Jet 6+ (hybrid): Rim depth - 60mm; weight per set - 1698 grams
Boyd 60mm Carbon Clinchers (full carbon): Rim depth - 60mm; weight per set - 1740 grams

As you can see, the hybrid wheels are right in the mix with full carbon clinchers when it comes to weight.



Brake heat is only part of the issue. Carbon brake tracks in general don't give as consist braking performance as does aluminum, especially in the wet. And then when you consider some of the aluminum brake track enhancement applications, such as the HED Black series of rims, carbon rims don't give anywhere near the same braking performance.

You're kind of comparing apples to oranges with the three rim brake aero models listed above, as the builds (such as weight of spokes, nipples, hubs) are completely different which ultimately have an effect on the total weight difference or lack thereof. With clinchers the weight difference for a given depth of rim is just as stark as with tubulars.

Zipp 404 Firecrest 58mm Rims - 525g
Boyd 60mm Rims - 550g
Hed Jet 6+ 60mm Rims - 593g (extrapolated from Jet 6+ using the same underlying rim as the Belgium+)

Granted that the Hed Jet6+ has been proven in numerous tests to be the fastest of the three above full wheel builds, one can't simply say that aluminum/carbon can create the same aero benefit at the same rim weight because it's simply not true. Even the Jet 4+ rim comes in at 589g, so it's still 7-11% heavier than the deeper section carbon rims.

With rim brake rims to get the best aero profile with the least amount of rotational weight you have to go carbon.

That being said even the best carbon brake tracks can't fully compare to alloy in the wet. In the dry they've made huge gains when paired with the right pads.

[oldpotatoe]

And to pile on with some first-hand experience. Here's some non-textured ENVE road wheels I witnessed get destroyed by a friend on a hard descent. Thankfully the tire/tube stayed on the rim. My understanding is that they've since changed the resins used so this sort of thing doesn't happen any longer.

Warped, blistered, delaminated, etc...

https://i.imgur.com/uTIPNTS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BPXqtdp.jpg

When in the shop I had a lady do that to TWO wheelsets..ENVE smiled(over the phone, she recognized the name) and sent another replacement wheelset..I guess cheaper than redesigning them(?)..

[Mark McM]

You're kind of comparing apples to oranges with the three rim brake aero models listed above, as the builds (such as weight of spokes, nipples, hubs) are completely different which ultimately have an effect on the total weight difference or lack thereof. With clinchers the weight difference for a given depth of rim is just as stark as with tubulars.

Zipp 404 Firecrest 58mm Rims - 525g
Boyd 60mm Rims - 550g
Hed Jet 6+ 60mm Rims - 593g (extrapolated from Jet 6+ using the same underlying rim as the Belgium+)

Those differences are still pretty small - like about 0.2% of total bike weight between a pair of the heaviest and lightest rims. Since people appear to be willing to add many hundreds of grams to their bikes for disc brakes because they think there is an overall improvement in performance, I don't see why it isn't reasonable that some people would believe that adding an extra 100 grams or so for better rim brake performance might also be an overall performance improvement.

Granted that the Hed Jet6+ has been proven in numerous tests to be the fastest of the three above full wheel builds, one can't simply say that aluminum/carbon can create the same aero benefit at the same rim weight because it's simply not true.

This sentence appears to be contradictory - A is faster than B, but it's simply not true that you can make A as fast as B?

With rim brake rims to get the best aero profile with the least amount of rotational weight you have to go carbon.


Without proof this is simply a hypothesis. And probably academic, since it has been shown that hybrid rims can do very well aerodynamically, so it is entirely possible that any improvements in aerodynamics are marginal. (Heck, in the interest in marginal gains, we might even get to the point that the design of he sidewall lip might be optimized to reduce rolling resistance losses as the tire flexes at the sidewall - and who knows, maybe it will be found that aluminum is a better material for that property?)