on pricing

[Heisenberg]

the SV OG disc and strong price increase threads have me pondering.

what is the acceptable price/leadtime for a steel frameset for most folks? how much is custom paint/geometry worth? how long would someone wait to get their bike?

i like to think that folks buying steel bikes tend to appreciate the value added, but seeing folks indignant about the $6000 price of a bike built in the US, or a $3200 custom steel frame has me wondering. the pricing isn't beyond what stock production bikes sell for on the open market. when i was on a team sponsored by pinarello as a naive 23 year-old many moons ago, i was confused as to why someone would buy a dogma (my frame clocked in heavier than many steel setups at the time) when they could have a phenomenal custom frame for the same scratch. now, price and leadtimes on stock carbon bikes from leading manufacturers who never had the caché of the italians is on par with most custom builders. are custom bikes becoming commodified, or are production bikes becoming rarified air treasures?

it seems many of us in this niche of a niche space have vastly different interpretations of "what's ok" for the cost of offerings at hand. i suppose i'm wondering if the theory of price as the primary predictor/driver of consumer behavior holds true here.

[joosttx]

the SV OG disc and strong price increase threads have me pondering.

what is the acceptable price/leadtime for a steel frameset for most folks? how much is custom paint/geometry worth? how long would someone wait to get their bike?

i like to think that folks buying steel bikes tend to appreciate the value added, but seeing folks indignant about the $6000 price of a bike built in the US, or a $3200 custom steel frame has me wondering. the pricing isn't beyond what stock production bikes sell for on the open market. when i was on a team sponsored by pinarello as a naive 23 year-old many moons ago, i was confused as to why someone would buy a dogma (my frame clocked in heavier than many steel setups at the time) when they could have a phenomenal custom frame for the same scratch. now, price and leadtimes on stock carbon bikes from leading manufacturers who never had the caché of the italians is on par with most custom builders. are custom bikes becoming commodified, or are production bikes becoming rarified air treasures?

it seems many of us in this niche of a niche space have vastly different interpretations of "what's ok" for the cost of offerings at hand. i suppose i'm wondering if the theory of price as the primary predictor/driver of consumer behavior holds true here.

It depends on paint. Personally, $6K for a brand new SV OG is IMO well priced.

6 months is my limit. If it were not I would own a Firefly.

[Clean39T]

the SV OG disc and strong price increase threads have me pondering.

what is the acceptable price/leadtime for a steel frameset for most folks? how much is custom paint/geometry worth? how long would someone wait to get their bike?

i like to think that folks buying steel bikes tend to appreciate the value added, but seeing folks indignant about the $6000 price of a bike built in the US, or a $3200 custom steel frame has me wondering. the pricing isn't beyond what stock production bikes sell for on the open market. when i was on a team sponsored by pinarello as a naive 23 year-old many moons ago, i was confused as to why someone would buy a dogma (my frame clocked in heavier than many steel setups at the time) when they could have a phenomenal custom frame for the same scratch. now, price and leadtimes on stock carbon bikes from leading manufacturers who never had the caché of the italians is on par with most custom builders. are custom bikes becoming commodified, or are production bikes becoming rarified air treasures?

it seems many of us in this niche of a niche space have vastly different interpretations of "what's ok" for the cost of offerings at hand. i suppose i'm wondering if the theory of price as the primary predictor/driver of consumer behavior holds true here.

I'll pay the asking price of the builder I want to have do the build, so long as I can afford it..

Two of my favorite builders are in the $3500-4500+ range - and I've paid that, and will do it again.

Another up-and-comer is in the $2000-2500 range - and I hope to get one from him this year too.

And one "old-timer" probably comes in similar to the up-and-comer, but for a different style.

All four offer a solid value for what they are delivering, imho.

The variation is less than what some pay for a two-night stay in wine-country - and yet the experience of their work could last a decade or more..

Perspective.

[jtbadge]

Speedvagen pricing is fine. I think a lot of people here are comparing pricing to buying a new custom frame and building up with parts/wheels they already have, grey market UK goods, and/or used stuff bought in the Paceline classifieds that they refuse to pay more than 50% of MSRP for.

[prototoast]

Each builder should be pricing to optimize for his or her own business. Both Speedvagen and Strong appear to have very strong demand, so it doesn't appear that their prices are too high for their operations.

[notsew]

I think the basic principals of economics still apply to all this. High end goods and have high-end prices. These are goods for the wealthy. Price goes up more, some people get priced out. So it goes.

[colker]

What happens when the Pinarello Dogma rides better than the custom steel bike? The same that happens when campagnolo Bora becomes better than a custom wheel?
Btw.. is the SV OG even custom? NOt that it matters to me since i always go w/ standard sizing and geometry.

[AngryScientist]

here's a stream of consciousness exercise:

According to the internet, the US average median income is around 60k. For calculations, let;s call a decent income for our hypothetical fbuilder (bob) @ $75k/year. Let us assume that he operates the business out of his basement shop and that subtracting out the cost to farm out paint, other overhead and materials, the profit on every frame sold is 70%.

Let us further assume that bob can turn out a frame/week on average, takes 2 weeks of vacation and a cumulative week of holidays, and is sick for a week/year. that's 48 frames/year out the door. let's just say he has a Q and can sell every frame he makes.

in this scenario, bob should charge $2,232 per frame. bob's wife has family health benefits, thankfully.

there were a lot of crazy assumptions in there though :banana:

[Heisenberg]

here's a stream of consciousness exercise:

According to the internet, the US average median income is around 60k. For calculations, let;s call a decent income for our hypothetical fbuilder (bob) @ $75k/year. Let us assume that he operates the business out of his basement shop and that subtracting out the cost to farm out paint, other overhead and materials, the profit on every frame sold is 70%.

Let us further assume that bob can turn out a frame/week on average, takes 2 weeks of vacation and a cumulative week of holidays, and is sick for a week/year. that's 48 frames/year out the door. let's just say he has a Q and can sell every frame he makes.

in this scenario, bob should charge $2,232 per frame. bob's wife has family health benefits, thankfully.

there were a lot of crazy assumptions in there though :banana:

70 points on a $2200 frame will get you one made of of galvanized pipe.

out of a home/owned shop in the us, with decent tubes, paint, a fork, $3500-4000 is a much more realistic proposition for the stated income for one individual. keep in mind you're leaving out the sales process, business ops, and any marketing bob engages in. he's probably working 60hrs a week.

[rallizes]

here's a stream of consciousness exercise:

According to the internet, the US average median income is around 60k. For calculations, let;s call a decent income for our hypothetical fbuilder (bob) @ $75k/year. Let us assume that he operates the business out of his basement shop and that subtracting out the cost to farm out paint, other overhead and materials, the profit on every frame sold is 70%.

Let us further assume that bob can turn out a frame/week on average, takes 2 weeks of vacation and a cumulative week of holidays, and is sick for a week/year. that's 48 frames/year out the door. let's just say he has a Q and can sell every frame he makes.

in this scenario, bob should charge $2,232 per frame. bob's wife has family health benefits, thankfully.

there were a lot of crazy assumptions in there though :banana:

Reminds me of this

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp7Z40_FV4U/

[AngryScientist]

70 points on a $2200 frame will get you one made of of galvanized pipe.

out of a home/owned shop in the us, with decent tubes, paint, a fork, $3500-4000 is a much more realistic proposition for the stated income for one individual. keep in mind you're leaving out the sales process, business ops, and any marketing bob engages in. he's probably working 60hrs a week.

let's not forget though, bob is smart like a fox.

he sees his pals charging 4 large bills for a frame so he sucks in the cheapskates with his $2200 frame. He's a pretty big deal on instagram and passes out cowbells with #bobsbikes at the local CX scene.

he makes up for those slim profit margins by buying his campy kit from the UK and gouging the pants off his customers selling them complete bikes.

but soon, bob doesnt just want life's roast beef, he wants the gravy. he makes a few calls and takes a taiwan vacation where he meets some people of great influence. soon he has a "custom" carbon fork he can include with your $2200 frame for a few hundred more. it's custom, so it's worth the investment.

[Heisenberg]

let's not forget though, bob is smart like a fox.

he sees his pals charging 4 large bills for a frame so he sucks in the cheapskates with his $2200 frame. He's a pretty big deal on instagram and passes out cowbells with #bobsbikes at the local CX scene.

he makes up for those slim profit margins by buying his campy kit from the UK and gouging the pants off his customers selling them complete bikes.

but soon, bob doesnt just want life's road beef, he wants the gravy. he makes a few calls and takes a taiwan vacation where he meets some people of great influence. soon he has a "custom" carbon fork he can include with your $2200 frame for a few hundred more. it's custom, so it's worth the investment.

finally, bob realizes (through great influence) he can cut a few sized frame molds with the skrilla from a refi, then starts popping out those bad boys for $250 landed cost in long beach direct from ho chi minh city.

and then (after a decade of exhausting trips to the far east and WAY too much tsingtao) he realizes he has built a marketing vehicle, not a bicycle company.

bob sells to specialized for well below market cap, finally loses his house, and goes into hydroponic heirloom potato farming, jaded, overweight, and with chronic liver failure.

[AngryScientist]

also, in case it's not readily obvious, i'm joking around with my posts above.

i think that well established frame builders who have a good reputation, just like any other professional in the bicycle industry deserves to make a comfortable living, and not scrape by. It's not a hobby for the pros, it's their job and they should have the level of compensation that they deserve.

I agree with Clean39T's post that the guys who have been in the business a long time and have made lots of good, solid bikes, stayed in business because they have the economics figured out, and they know how to balance their books and run a business.

So if a guy like David Kirk or Calr Strong or RS tell me that my frame will cost you $xxxxx, i agree that is what the frame is worth. If i like that frame and i'm in a position to afford it at the time, that's what i would pay, otherwise i look elsewhere.

[merckx]

finally, bob realizes (through great influence) he can cut a few sized frame molds with the skrilla from a refi, then starts popping out those bad boys for $250 landed cost in long beach direct from ho chi minh city.

and then (after a decade of exhausting trips to the far east and WAY too much tsingtao) he realizes he has built a marketing vehicle, not a bicycle company.

bob sells to specialized for well below market cap, finally loses his house, and goes into hydroponic heirloom potato farming, jaded, overweight, and with chronic liver failure.

Maynard Hershon?

[nmrt]

in the nutshell, here it is --
a frame is worth exactly how much one pays for it simply because no one forced him to pay for it. he chose it. and assuming that he could afford it, that frame is worth exactly what he paid for it.

for e.g., an enzo ferrari is not worth at all to me. but if suddenly my net worth becomes 1 billion dollars, i would buy an enzo ferrari in a heartbeat. along with a f40. :)

[MattTuck]

i suppose i'm wondering if the theory of price as the primary predictor/driver of consumer behavior holds true here.

That is only true for readily fungible products. Once things become differentiated, individual consumers' tastes and preferences become another significant driver of how they behave. And, I'd argue, custom bikes are probably one of the least fungible items in the cycling segment.

That said, 1,800 - 3,300 for a steel frame, fork and headset seems to be a reasonable range for me. I'd expect the bikes at the upper end of the spectrum to be better quality in terms of experience with the builder, welds, paint and overall fit and finish. I'd expect bikes at the lower end to be functionally excellent, with lower expectations on the other dimensions.

If you go above 3,300, I'd expect something truly special on one or more of the dimensions I mentioned.

[m4rk540]

What happens when the Pinarello Dogma rides better than the custom steel bike? The same that happens when campagnolo Bora becomes better than a custom wheel?
Btw.. is the SV OG even custom? NOt that it matters to me since i always go w/ standard sizing and geometry.


9 years ago Specialized race bikes were the antithesis of what the in-the-know custom crowd was riding on the West Coast. Cheesy, confused, somewhat generic, fat tubed carbon frames for sponsored racerbois. Then you started to see guys like Ben Lieberson exclusively riding a murdered out S-Works Tarmac. Then Sagan happened. Followed by lessons learned from the Venge. And to paraphrase Richard Sachs, Tarmacs began to bring back the elegance. Now an Sl6 with custom but stock paint runs $4500/frameset. Add disc brakes and half the influencers in California #theyisspecialized. I think for this niche demographic, steel can only be sexy through paint and positioning. In other words, it needs to be expensive. And that type of consumer is driving the market, the guy or gal who buys into the narrative. The rest of us still think you should be able to get a decent steel frame for $1500.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=229878

Specialized has their people keeping tabs on Speedvagen, Stinner, English, Field and vice versa.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=233765

[pdmtong]

Are there steel comps for a SV?
(+) every tube is shaped. main tubes are tapered and bi-axially ovalized, Stays are curved ovalized flattened. the headtube is tapered
(-) TIG by unknown welder(s)
(-) seat mast (I would rather have a post)

[MattTuck]

Are there steel comps for a SV?
(+) every tube is shaped. main tubes are tapered and bi-axially ovalized, Stays are curved ovalized flattened. the headtube is tapered
(-) TIG by unknown welder(s)
(-) seat mast (I would rather have a post)

As much as I've come around to dig the SV offering, this still smacks of "cool kids club". Just do a seat post and get on with it. :)

Or atleast, offer it as option.

[cgolvin]

bob sells to specialized for well below market cap, finally loses his house, and goes into hydroponic heirloom potato farming, jaded, overweight, and with chronic liver failure.

Clearly if bob were smart he'd choose a different crop, especially today.

[dddd]

Posted to wrong topic, deleted.

[sparky33]

It depends.

the sub-3,000 10-week semi-custom steel frameset has a lot of appeal...something like Breadwinner. Refined product, easy choices, reasonably quick delivery.

Then there are a few bespoke builders that would (or did) cause my budget and patience to grow considerably.

I have a more difficult time wrapping my head around the middle ground.

[unterhausen]

Reminds me of this

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp7Z40_FV4U/

when I was at Trek, each of us had to braze 30 front triangles a day. Or 30 rear triangles. I didn't do forks that I remember. If you give the machinist, finishing guys, and prep guys combined a man-day for 30 frames, which is about right, that's 10 frames a day per person.

Having everything cut out for you speeds things up a lot.

I always figure that fixed cost X 5 is a good starting point for pricing if a company is going to be around long term. It costs about $1000 to build a steel frame including paint ignoring the cost of insurance, which I haven't priced recently. You can say that there is 4x fixed costs profit in that, but it never works out that way. I don't think there are many builders that can build a frame a week including customer interaction and sales.

[windsurfer]

a $3500 custom geometry Strong is a far better value in terms of material and labor content than a $4500 stock with fancy paint Specialized.

[Kirk007]

What happens when the Pinarello Dogma rides better than the custom steel bike? .

Lionel sells his Sachs ; ) .

More seriously, people will continue to buy what they like and prefer. A Dogma is the bees knees for some but not all. Depends on what you're looking for and what fits.

For the uber niche that constitutes most who hang out here (I suspect), neither raw performance nor bottom line value seem to be primary drivers (if it were wouldn't we all be on aluminum Cannondales with ultegra or 105 level parts?). Reasons for spending a lot on a bike or frame are probably as varied as the people that buy them - price, history, aesthetic, support for craft industry, uniqueness, exclusiveness, performance, childhood dreams.... For the larger market I think perception based on advertisement, local availability and keeping us with the Jones drive the high end, such as the Specialized example for Silicon Valley.

[fa63]

As much as I've come around to dig the SV offering, this still smacks of "cool kids club". Just do a seat post and get on with it. :)



Or atleast, offer it as option.I think it is part of their branding strategy. A metal frame with an integrated seatmast sort of stands out from the crowd, whether good or bad.

[vincenz]

It depends.

the sub-3,000 10-week semi-custom steel frameset has a lot of appeal...something like Breadwinner. Refined product, easy choices, reasonably quick delivery.

Then there are a few bespoke builders that would (or did) cause my budget and patience to grow considerably.

I have a more difficult time wrapping my head around the middle ground.

Even Breadwinner raised their prices by $400 this last couple months.

[prototoast]

I think it is part of their branding strategy. A metal frame with an integrated seatmast sort of stands out from the crowd, whether good or bad.

This strikes me as correct. Speedvagen is one of the few small builders that appears to have value to the brand that goes above the skill and reputation of the builder.

[m4rk540]

a $3500 custom geometry Strong is a far better value in terms of material and labor content than a $4500 stock with fancy paint Specialized.

What about the $6250 Venge? It's 5 watts faster than the Strong!

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-works-venge-frameset--sagan-collection/p/154591?color=263540-154591

[Bob Ross]

the guys who have been in the business a long time and have made lots of good, solid bikes, stayed in business because they have the economics figured out, and they know how to balance their books and run a business.
So if a guy like David Kirk or Carl Strong or RS tell me that my frame will cost you $xxxxx, i agree that is what the frame is worth.


I gotta admit, that was the thing that took me aback about Carl's recent announcement: He always came across as one of the best businessmen in the bespoke framebuilding world. Besides the other two gents you mentioned, I'd bet his peers in this regard can be counted on one hand. Carl really seems to have the whole process (of making a living selling his wares) nailed down and ironed out to a "t"
...and so yesterday's "I noticed my costs are rising so I need to raise my prices by ~50%" email sounded to me like a guy who was caught with his pants down. And that's just totally out of character with the Carl I know and have done business with.

[Clean39T]

I think we are all projecting and pontificating just a bit more than is called for ..

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[weaponsgrade]

I see myself paying $2000-$3000 for tig; $3000-$4500 for lugged or fillet-brazed. I put a very high premium on custom - maybe not so much on intricate paint schemes. i wouldn't want to wait any longer than 9 months. Custom for me is about getting exactly what I want, supporting independent builders especially local ones, knowing the person that built the bike, and having something unique. I've been happy to pay the premium with a custom steel over production offerings in terms of both cost and weight.

[sparky33]

I think we are all projecting and pontificating just a bit more than is called for.

Correct. This is Paceline.

[Ozz]

...
what is the acceptable price/leadtime for a steel frameset for most folks? how much is custom paint/geometry worth? how long would someone wait to get their bike? ....

The answer is different for everyone...

I don't think the material of the bike really matters in the price / wait time discussion.

If the buyer likes the builder and wants a bike from them, then the price is the price and the wait time is what it is. If these terms are unacceptable, there are plenty of other options.

If another buyer is cool with price and terms, then no one really has a say in how they spend their money or how long they wait. Comments on this are a reflection of the commentator's values than the buyer's.

Cheers.

[Gummee]

I think we are all projecting and pontificating just a bit more than is called for ..

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

1. it's still winter

2. it's paceline. That's what we do

M

edited to add: I solved the problem of $ and wait time by going to Colossi. Got what I wanted for good pricing and I got it quickly. Next up: Waltly for a Ti SSCX

[sparky33]

Tarmacs began to bring back the elegance. Now an Sl6 with custom but stock paint runs $4500/frameset.

Specialized seems to have a winner with the Tarmac - people love them, real riders that ride every day. Never heard a bad word about that bike. I would wager that if a Tarmac fits nicely, then it'll be your favorite road bike or close to it. 4 or 5 grand could be a fitting benchmark for a tip top shelf frameset.

That said, the Tarmac lacks a bit of soul that one might otherwise get in a set of Columbus tubes custom fitted, spec'd and masterfully assembled... and beautifully painted etc.

Maybe the outlay of cash is about the same, but these bikes are different goods and equally valuable things.

[John H.]

This is true- But it goes back further than 9 years.

Circa 2005- Specialized came out with the carbon Tarmac. Not a terrible bike, but boxy looking, funky seat tube, etc.. Nothing to write home about.

They replaced that in 2006 with the Tarmac SL- the SL looked better but was again nothing to write home about.
I rode for a Specialized sponsored team. I rode my Parlee Z3 with Specialized decals on it. This was also pre-facebook/Instagram (and I not exactly Peter Sagan).

2007 was the SL2- Some things better, some things worse. This was the course for Specialized until at least the SL4.
The press fit bb's ate through bearings, internal cable routing so bad that bikes barely shifted, bikes that were too stiff- etc.

By the SL5 they got it dialed, Current SL6 is even better.

If you don't need custom geometry and a Tarmac fits you- It stacks up well to any bike. Custom for 4k- or any other material for as much as 6k.

And like you mentioned- The marketing machine at Specialized got really good as well.

9 years ago Specialized race bikes were the antithesis of what the in-the-know custom crowd was riding on the West Coast. Cheesy, confused, somewhat generic, fat tubed carbon frames for sponsored racerbois. Then you started to see guys like Ben Lieberson exclusively riding a murdered out S-Works Tarmac. Then Sagan happened. Followed by lessons learned from the Venge. And to paraphrase Richard Sachs, Tarmacs began to bring back the elegance. Now an Sl6 with custom but stock paint runs $4500/frameset. Add disc brakes and half the influencers in California #theyisspecialized. I think for this niche demographic, steel can only be sexy through paint and positioning. In other words, it needs to be expensive. And that type of consumer is driving the market, the guy or gal who buys into the narrative. The rest of us still think you should be able to get a decent steel frame for $1500.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=229878

Specialized has their people keeping tabs on Speedvagen, Stinner, English, Field and vice versa.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=233765

[pdonk]

If you can afford it, like it and can stand the wait then get it, if any one of these is not a positive, then maybe pass....

[simonov]

what is the acceptable price/leadtime for a steel frameset for most folks? how much is custom paint/geometry worth? how long would someone wait to get their bike?

Depends on who the builder is, their reputation, their fabrication method and the expected fit and finish. I have or have had steel bikes from a number of builders and they've all ridden great, but only some had the attention to detail that supported a higher price. So my thought is that the price should appropriately match the build on the utilitarian workhorse to rolling artwork spectrum.

Custom geometry, IMO, should be a given for a hand built bike. Bake it into the cost and let it be a differentiator from what the LBS is selling. Otherwise it's really just about soul, which you can't feel while riding, or paint, which doesn't much matter once the honeymoon period ends.

Meeting expectations matters as much, if not more, than the actual duration when it comes to the wait. Tell them it's 6 months and deliver in 12 and most people will be disappointed. Tell them it's 12 months and deliver in 11.5 to 12.5, and you'll please most every customer. Not everyone will want to wait for a long time, but as long as you have enough to keep a queue filling up, it's fine and better than rushing or getting too far behind schedule.

[Lionel]

Lionel sells his Sachs ; ) .


There is that :)

[Clean39T]

For the uber niche that constitutes most who hang out here (I suspect), neither raw performance nor bottom line value seem to be primary drivers (if it were wouldn't we all be on aluminum Cannondales with ultegra or 105 level parts?).

CAAD13 coming soon :eek:

[BagelMaster]

CAAD13 coming soon :eek:

Not soon enough! I wanted to get a new bike for my fondos and races, and I’d grab an updated CAAD quick if I could.