Zwift 'racing'

[redir]

Whew, what a work out. My observation. Zwift tends to categorize you based on your FTP so I thought ok that's a good idea. My FTP, granted only based on one 20 minute indoor test, was 3.9 w/kg so I entered category B race which was for riders from 3.2 to 4. I figured that puts me on the high end.

Race starts and boom... Good bye everybody... They just took off! I ended up fighting my way back for a mid pack finish but still I had to ride 400 watts the whole time to just maintain postion and it killed me.

So I thought ok I will try a C race just to see.

Race starts and... Boom... Good bye every body LOL... Same thing.

I guess there is a lot of sand baggers in Zwift racing :D

Anyway it was fun and a helluva workout. I'll be back for more.

[unterhausen]

any racing where your results depend on you being honest about your weight is not racing.

[kppolich]

I've noticed the same and thought these two questions:

1.) Start of the race is everything, no idea how gaps that wide open up in 15 seconds and then extend with everyone in the lead group riding lower ftp overall at the end of the race compared to the chase group that is bigger and riding at a higher wattage for much longer. Something is up.

2.) Do you have to time the pedal delay or is there a trick to getting an actual draft in Zwift? I felt like there was no way to "sit in" in the virtual world.

[ergott]

Zwift racing shouldn't be compared to outdoor racing. If you haven't already linked up with www.zwiftpower.com you should. That validates most of the garbage results from flyers.

Racing Zwift means doing a pre ride warmup so you are ready out of the gate. It's almost like Zwift races are closer to cyclocross in length of time and out-of-the-gate power (for the holeshot).

Also, get to the starting gate early and spin. That way you are closer to the front of the pack and not chasing the start from the getgo.

[bcroslin]

It used to be different. B races were extremely difficult to stay with but C races were doable and I'd finish mid-pack just like IRL. Now, it's bananas. There's a bunch of "weight doping" and other tweaks I think people do to get a leg up also just like IRL.

These days, I only do recovery rides on Zwift that are rated under 2.2 w/kg and I largely enjoy it. Zwift is just a training tool and if you treat it that way I think it works best.

[echappist]

Zwift racing shouldn't be compared to outdoor racing. If you haven't already linked up with www.zwiftpower.com you should. That validates most of the garbage results from flyers.

Racing Zwift means doing a pre ride warmup so you are ready out of the gate. It's almost like Zwift races are closer to cyclocross in length of time and out-of-the-gate power (for the holeshot).

Also, get to the starting gate early and spin. That way you are closer to the front of the pack and not chasing the start from the getgo.

all of this

In addition, pick up an aero power-up to make the starting effort easier, and make sure to hit ~350W 5 seconds before the actual start. Reason is that there will be sort of a lag between what the trainer is sending out and what the server will be receiving, and starting from 0 watt will drag down power for the first few seconds.

Lastly, the pack dynamics of the game is quite a bit off, and there's significant advantage to be gained from being in a pack; this, despite the minimal draft that one receives...

[redir]

Yes hence the reason why I put racing in quotes.

And yea the guy who 'won' last nights race had an average of 225 watts while mine was 311. Granted I do weigh 200lbs but still.

I noticed too that I would dial the power up to 450 or something like that while the pack was averaging around 270 or so and it would take about 30 second for the attack to actually take off.

My guess is that at the start line 5-10 second mark you need to dial up the power so that when the gun goes off you go off the front with the rest of them.

[echappist]

Yes hence the reason why I put racing in quotes.

And yea the guy who 'won' last nights race had an average of 225 watts while mine was 311. Granted I do weigh 200lbs but still.

I noticed too that I would dial the power up to 450 or something like that while the pack was averaging around 270 or so and it would take about 30 second for the attack to actually take off.

My guess is that at the start line 5-10 second mark you need to dial up the power so that when the gun goes off you go off the front with the rest of them.

there's also a "cohesive effect" at play here. Takes quite a bit for the game to allow you to break away. The same is used when trying to latch back on. This is on top of the aerodynamics considerations. Think of trying to move one piece of magnet away from another.

Do you still race in real life as a cat-2? If you do, you'll find that the B-category to be quite doable. You just have to get your start dialed, as you'll need to burn up so much more to latch back on if you aren't part of the initial front group

[ergott]

Also, get the Tron bike. Noticeably less effort than any other bike.

[kramnnim]

Yeah, everyone does a vo2max effort at the start to drop all the new people. It's annoying.

[kramnnim]

90kg and 3.9w/kg is enough to hang with and drop the 65kg 4.2w/kg guys :mad:

[redir]

there's also a "cohesive effect" at play here. Takes quite a bit for the game to allow you to break away. The same is used when trying to latch back on. This is on top of the aerodynamics considerations. Think of trying to move one piece of magnet away from another.

Do you still race in real life as a cat-2? If you do, you'll find that the B-category to be quite doable. You just have to get your start dialed, as you'll need to burn up so much more to latch back on if you aren't part of the initial front group

I'll race the cat 2 cross but for the one or two road races I do per year I race Masters. Not that that's any easier :eek:

Yeah the B race was doable. I'll figure out some of the techniques in Zwift.

Like bcroslin Zwift is just a training tool and I will say it's a pretty fantastic one at that. This winter in Virginia has been particularly awful and Zwift has managed to keep my attention at indoor riding where in the past it was next to impossible for me.

[nooneline]

90kg and 3.9w/kg is enough to hang with and drop the 65kg 4.2w/kg guys :mad:

^^relatable content

[echappist]

I'll race the cat 2 cross but for the one or two road races I do per year I race Masters. Not that that's any easier :eek:

Yeah the B race was doable. I'll figure out some of the techniques in Zwift.

Like bcroslin Zwift is just a training tool and I will say it's a pretty fantastic one at that. This winter in Virginia has been particularly awful and Zwift has managed to keep my attention at indoor riding where in the past it was next to impossible for me.
you'd have no problem then, and could do well even in the A races

some of the courses are quite "jumpy" (the flatter Central Park ones come to mind). No single hill is enough to do damage, but they come in quick succession and make one pay.

Ditto for the Richmond Worlds Course

[93KgBike]

If you are heavier, your starts will be slower than a lighter rider at equal power. Once you get rolling, it's easier to maintain your speed relative to a lighter rider, because you are generating more watts at roughly neutral resistance. But once the race heads upward, lighter riders will climb faster.

But people definitely cheat. That's a given.

It's even easier to cheat in Zwift, because you self report weight.

It's cool that you enjoyed it and remain motivated despite all that.

[93KgBike]

Zwift is just a training tool...

Tomorrow, via Facebook, sees the launch of a pro esports league founded by the multiplayer online training and racing platform Zwift. This is a London-based company leading the gamification of cycling. In December the firm secured $120-million in Series B funding with part of the cash injection being spent on expanding into esports tournaments.

Members from 15 teams – some of them professional – will contest the Men’s KISS Super League, starting on Wednesday night from a London bike shop.

“Our goal is to create a new sport within a sport, celebrated by pro cyclists, amateur cyclists and cycling fans all over the world,” said Zwift CEO Eric Min.

The company cofounder added: “Pro cycling has embraced Zwift as a training platform and Zwift has proven itself as a talent ID platform. Now is the time to push on with esports.”
Forbes Magazine (https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/01/22/zwifts-pro-esport-league-for-indoor-cyclists-kicks-off-tomorrow-on-facebook-with-real-world-teams/#4cef9bcdffb0) 1/22/2019

[nobuseri]

I fall into the B-/C+ level (B- on a very good day), but as said before, thee are many racers that are not inputting their weight correctly, so there are quite a few breaks in the field, depending on the route. It's a good workout, for sure. Even on the C races, hanging with the lead pack takes way too much wattage; I tend to blow up after 45+ minutes. I need to learn some of the tricks. It seems that drafting in Zwift is about 3mph, so it definitely helps. I used to race with the Canyon/808s; Tron bike seems to be a better pick. I want to try the S5/808 setup and see how that fares.

[redir]

Forbes Magazine (https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/01/22/zwifts-pro-esport-league-for-indoor-cyclists-kicks-off-tomorrow-on-facebook-with-real-world-teams/#4cef9bcdffb0) 1/22/2019

That's pretty cool. I can see that working if everyone is on the exact same equipment, even in the same building with the same Internet connections and computers and so on. They would have a weigh in like they do at wrestling matches.

I always thought of e-Sport as games like Call of Duty or Fortnite.

[cash05458]

well, on that first kiss pro race the entire Cofidis team got dropped in about the first 30 seconds and never made it back...some zwift guy won it...I don't race there but it is a good training thing for sure...as for cheating, I guess it depends on your definition. None of it is real...sorta like asking questions about if your wife cheated on you for liking some random guy's facebook post I think.

[GregL]

Zwift, Strava, and similar activities are not bike racing. Sign up for the race of your choice (road, gravel, TT, MTB, BMX, etc...), pin on a number, and line up at the start. Anything else doesn't count.

Greg

[saab2000]

Zwift, Strava, and similar activities are not bike racing. Sign up for the race of your choice (road, gravel, TT, MTB, BMX, etc...), pin on a number, and line up at the start. Anything else doesn't count.

Greg

Totally agree.

I enjoy what Zwift is but it is not racing bicycles any more than an auto racing video game is racing automobiles.

[avalonracing]

Totally agree.

I enjoy what Zwift is but it is not racing bicycles any more than an auto racing video game is racing automobiles.

I'm so glad I'm not the ONLY one who feels this way. It's pedaling people, NOT racing. As I said, if it is I'm going to put my motorcycle on rollers have my friend pay me to watch and declare myself a professional motorcycle racer.

[redir]

I'll have to agree to disagree and I have been racing bikes for 25 years now fairly regularly. Well until a few years ago. But... Of course a Zwift race is not a real race, no one is even saying that. A zwift ride isn't a real ride either. But in a Zwift race you line up on a start line, the gun goes off, and the race is on. It's virtual but it's closer then anything else. It's certainly more 'real' then chasing down commuters on the bike path to work in the morning ;)

There is still a sense of compitition. There are attacks that need to be responded too. I doubt there can be any real team work so that is truly missing.

In the end, again, it's just a training tool.

BTW I had no idea that the virtual bikes mattered. I got the steel one with the DT shifters becasue I thought it looked cool :D

[93KgBike]

... I enjoy what Zwift is but it is not racing bicycles any more than an auto racing video game is racing automobiles.

Well, you do have to peddle your bike.

I'll have to agree to disagree and I have been racing bikes for 25 years now fairly regularly. Well until a few years ago. But... Of course a Zwift race is not a real race, no one is even saying that. A zwift ride isn't a real ride either. But in a Zwift race you line up on a start line, the gun goes off, and the race is on. It's virtual but it's closer then anything else. It's certainly more 'real' then chasing down commuters on the bike path to work in the morning ;)

There is still a sense of compitition. There are attacks that need to be responded too. I doubt there can be any real team work so that is truly missing.

In the end, again, it's just a training tool.

BTW I had no idea that the virtual bikes mattered. I got the steel one with the DT shifters becasue I thought it looked cool :D

+1 on comments above, and +1 on the steel bike!

[ScottW]

is there a trick to getting an actual draft in Zwift?

Still pretty new to Zwift myself, and I might be stating the obvious here, but if the indicator of your distance off the next guy's wheel isn't showing up, it could be because you're on the TT bike which gets no draft benefit. It is heavy and does slow you down on climbs however.


BTW I had no idea that the virtual bikes mattered. I got the steel one with the DT shifters becasue I thought it looked cool :D
It was only recently that I heard the Tron bike is the fastest, and that I should have been doing the Everest challenge first instead of the Tour of California. Meh.
Not like it's my choice of bike that makes me slow. I also don't weight dope. I'm Zwiftopian pan y agua.

[Andy sti]

I'm hooked on Zwift racing right now. This is the first winter in the last 7 years I haven't had a coach. My goals for next year have changed thus the reason for that. I started Trainer Road in December and it's great but then I thought I'd do a free Zwift trial - I've been hooked since. I'm just doing these races and not structured stuff anymore, because I don't care. This is way more motivational for me. I don't get hung up on the results or if someone is cheating, I'm getting a killer workout so it doesn't matter.

I've been doing the Cat A events and have learned some of the idiosyncrasies of the races. The draft is huge, just compare w/kg to the riders in front. The start and first few minutes is hug, so much of the selection is made then. I prefer the hillier course but I'll do whatever events work with my schedule. I've been hitting numbers doing these races that I've never hit on the trainer before. I use a Wahoo Kickr with my bike's Quarq PM and it has been working great.

Some may not like it and that's fine. No it's not a "real" bike race and that's fine too. It fills a void and provides that competition motivation. I don't live in SoCal and I can't Nordic ski every day so I'm on the trainer during the winter. I know it's cool to hate racing on the this forum but this isn't that bad.

[kramnnim]

well, on that first kiss pro race the entire Cofidis team got dropped in about the first 30 seconds and never made it back...some zwift guy won it....

Actually Madison Genesis and Ribble won the first 4 events.

[redir]

I'm hooked on Zwift racing right now. This is the first winter in the last 7 years I haven't had a coach. My goals for next year have changed thus the reason for that. I started Trainer Road in December and it's great but then I thought I'd do a free Zwift trial - I've been hooked since. I'm just doing these races and not structured stuff anymore, because I don't care. This is way more motivational for me. I don't get hung up on the results or if someone is cheating, I'm getting a killer workout so it doesn't matter.

I've been doing the Cat A events and have learned some of the idiosyncrasies of the races. The draft is huge, just compare w/kg to the riders in front. The start and first few minutes is hug, so much of the selection is made then. I prefer the hillier course but I'll do whatever events work with my schedule. I've been hitting numbers doing these races that I've never hit on the trainer before. I use a Wahoo Kickr with my bike's Quarq PM and it has been working great.

Some may not like it and that's fine. No it's not a "real" bike race and that's fine too. It fills a void and provides that competition motivation. I don't live in SoCal and I can't Nordic ski every day so I'm on the trainer during the winter. I know it's cool to hate racing on the this forum but this isn't that bad.

That's been my experience too. Last year my teammates were trying to get me on Zwift and I was like... Pfffft! After giving it a go I immediately realized how powerful a training tool it is. I have been doing one of their generic training plans and it's okay but after trying a few races I've been thinking that is the best way to make use of the time. I'll probably still follow through and complete the plan, it's only 5 hours a week, and supplement it with the races.

[Clydesdale]

First Zwift experience this winter and I'll stick with it. The races leave me absolutely hammered, which is why I sign up so I'm happy with that. I'm also on the heavy side at 220 and man is it humbling to see that you averaged about the same watts as the top guys but finished many, many minutes and places behind them.

As for the people that fake their weights and whatever else, I guess I don't care enough about the results to be bothered by it too much. Ego is a crazy thing.

[Spaghetti Legs]

I will do the occasional race with experience similar to that above. I’ll usually end up in a group and it turns into a race within a race and I’ve found that kind of fun, but pretty much assume that the 5w/kg people will be riding on ahead.

[jb_11]

DC Rainmaker had a good write up on the current state of Zwift racing yesterday:
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/02/challenges-ahead-zwift-esports.html

He cover's it in his article, but Aus. just awarded real national championship jerseys/medals to two competitors who rode remotely. That's a bit nuts with the current state of the technology.

Oh, and you definitely have to be ramped up to pretty high watts before the start timer hits 0 to make the break.

There are also different levels of draft effect, depending on how the event is setup.
https://zwiftinsider.com/double-draft/

[saab2000]

Well, you do have to peddle your bike.



If it were only about having the peddle (sic) your bike, Chris Boardman would have won a lot of Tours. There’s a lot more to successful racing than just putting out raw numbers. Real racing involves a lot of planning and strategy and bike skills and thinking. Not saying the great Chris Boardman can’t do all of these things but Zwift racing appears to be largely a number game and a real bicycle race is far more than just numbers.

Don’t get me wrong. I enjoy Zwift very much. And if folks love the racing on Zwift and the events it’s all good. It’s probably just left me behind.

It’s a fantastic app and a great training tool and video game. Not hating on Zwift. Just not sure the races are my bag.

[avalonracing]

Real racing involves a lot of planning and strategy and bike skills and thinking. Not saying the great Chris Boardman can’t do all of these things but Zwift racing appears to be largely a number game and a real bicycle race is far more than just numbers.

It's also why there are all these guys who can't ride for sh*t in a group. They have started riding within the last couple of years and haven't been taught pack riding skills or etiquette by people who have experience. They are like bottle rockets. All power and no control.

[GregL]

It's also why there are all these guys who can't ride for sh*t in a group. They have started riding within the last couple of years and haven't been taught pack riding skills or etiquette by people who have experience. They are like bottle rockets. All power and no control.
Winner! For all the negativity heaped on masters racing on this forum, one of the best things about it (at least in my corner of the world) is strong pack skills. People who know how to safely ride in a fast pack and want to be in one piece when they go to work on Monday.

Greg

[echappist]

If it were only about having the peddle (sic) your bike, Chris Boardman would have won a lot of Tours. There’s a lot more to successful racing than just putting out raw numbers. Real racing involves a lot of planning and strategy and bike skills and thinking. Not saying the great Chris Boardman can’t do all of these things but Zwift racing appears to be largely a number game and a real bicycle race is far more than just numbers.

Don’t get me wrong. I enjoy Zwift very much. And if folks love the racing on Zwift and the events it’s all good. It’s probably just left me behind.

It’s a fantastic app and a great training tool and video game. Not hating on Zwift. Just not sure the races are my bag.

you perhaps picked the wrong person to illustrate your points. Naturally low-T levels, competing clean in the era of EPO, etc. Dude did smash it in TTs and IP though

road racing certainly is more than just numbers, but a lot of it is predicated upon numbers. as such, Zwift does at least a passing job as a verisimilitude of racing, despite its flaws.

One flaw that real racing does have and Zwift does not, of course, are the crashes and collateral damages therefrom. I very much doubt i'll flip over the bars while racing in Zwift

[saab2000]

One flaw that real racing does have and Zwift does not, of course, are the crashes and collateral damages therefrom. I very much doubt i'll flip over the bars while racing in Zwift

And whose fault is this? Is this the fault of the racer or of an electronic application?

Handling a bicycle is part of bicycle racing. I enjoy Zwift and it can be an enjoyable application for wattage measurements in a highly controlled (and easily manipulated) environment but it is not by a long shot racing a bicycle.

Bicycle racing has, by its very nature, a bit of skin in the game as they say. Zwift is, by definition, a video game.

[echappist]

And whose fault is this? Is this the fault of the racer or of an electronic application?

Handling a bicycle is part of bicycle racing. I enjoy Zwift and it can be an enjoyable application for wattage measurements in a highly controlled (and easily manipulated) environment but it is not by a long shot racing a bicycle.

Bicycle racing has, by its very nature, a bit of skin in the game as they say. Zwift is, by definition, a video game.

Whether or not you'd consider Zwift racing is irrelevant. It has enough the elements of bike racing to render it a at least semi-decent replacement. And because there is almost no chance of gruesome crashes, that will be one of its draws, whether or not you deem it real enough for your own liking.

Rather absurd you'd attribute being crashed out to a lack of skills, as if people don't get crashed due to fault of others... Quite specious of a comment. Chances of going over the bar could be due to one's own mistake or that of others (or even malicious intent). Zwift eliminates that risk, and is a draw whether or not you think it dilutes things.

As an aside, just to be sure here, are you insinuating it's my fault? If so, that'd be rather callous. I got crashed out by someone who swerved from the middle of the lane to the side, which took out someone between me and the idiot. Really no time to respond, and no skill would have prevented it. Everyone at the scene knew whose fault it was.

[93KgBike]

If it were only about having the peddle (sic) [sic] your bike, Chris Boardman would have won a lot of Tours. There’s a lot more to successful racing than just putting out raw numbers. Real racing involves a lot of planning and strategy and bike skills and thinking. Not saying the great Chris Boardman can’t do all of these things but Zwift racing appears to be largely a number game and a real bicycle race is far more than just numbers.

Don’t get me wrong. I enjoy Zwift very much. And if folks love the racing on Zwift and the events it’s all good. It’s probably just left me behind.

It’s a fantastic app and a great training tool and video game. Not hating on Zwift. Just not sure the races are my bag.

But video games don't simulate anything about auto-racing, while Zwift gaming improves the physical strength required to race bikes irl.

I must have looked at my post for like 3 minutes thinking, "why does pedaling look wrong?" And then I was still looking after your notation and couldn't see it. Must be spending too much time in the classifieds.

[ergott]

But video games don't simulate anything about auto-racing,

Tell that to these guys.

https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/academy/

There have been drivers that were discovered by their "video game" driving on Gran Turismo.

[93KgBike]

Tell that to these guys.

https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/academy/

There have been drivers that were discovered by their "video game" driving on Gran Turismo.

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmatthewturland.com%2Fslides%2Fphp-android%2Fimg%2Fi-know-kung-fu.jpg&f=1

[GregL]

Interesting thread. My $0.02: Zwift is a fitness test based on cycling, but it is not bike racing. Bike racing has more fitness elements that are not needed on Zwift. The comparison to auto racing video games is interesting. I'll submit that unless the simulator provides tactile feedback and motion, it is a test of hand-eye coordination and human-computer interface. It's more of a procedures trainer than a true simulator. Add full-motion and feedback like a true flight simulator and then I'll find it more realistic. As I'm sure the other professional pilots on the forum will agree, a level C or D flight simulator is so real that you come out of a sim session tired and sweaty!

Greg

[makoti]

BTW I had no idea that the virtual bikes mattered. I got the steel one with the DT shifters becasue I thought it looked cool :D

That's the one I use for my training, along with box rims. I can get the speed/mileage to mimic the real world in a given time frame pretty well. If I am riding with a group, I use one of the aero bikes & aero wheelsets I've earned by sitting on my actual bike long enough. Makes a big difference in keeping up.

[redir]

If it were only about having the peddle (sic) your bike, Chris Boardman would have won a lot of Tours. There’s a lot more to successful racing than just putting out raw numbers. Real racing involves a lot of planning and strategy and bike skills and thinking. Not saying the great Chris Boardman can’t do all of these things but Zwift racing appears to be largely a number game and a real bicycle race is far more than just numbers.

Don’t get me wrong. I enjoy Zwift very much. And if folks love the racing on Zwift and the events it’s all good. It’s probably just left me behind.

It’s a fantastic app and a great training tool and video game. Not hating on Zwift. Just not sure the races are my bag.

Absolutely and I can speak to that from experience. Cyclocross was always my main discipline. I decided after a few years of racing cross to try road racing. Because of cross I started as a cat 4 and jumped right into racing road. I was strong enough but it took me 3 years of racing cat 4 before I actually 'got it.' Then I moved up the cat's in one year. Lets not forget too that road racing is a team sport. Even as a cat 4 I had a team and we actually raced as one.




One flaw that real racing does have and Zwift does not, of course, are the crashes and collateral damages therefrom. I very much doubt i'll flip over the bars while racing in Zwift

Well, I ride Zwift on the rollers and I actually did crash once :D

[unterhausen]

I have never crashed on my rollers, but it's definitely possible. I may have ridden off the side and caught myself once. I rode my bike off of my kickr twice, fortunately no damage to anything. Then I put an internal cam quick release on it.