Custom Frames and New Builders

[m4rk540]

Something cool versus something good.

Why?

A buddy just bought a klunker from a builder who's been in the industry for a few months. I don't understand the consumer psychology here. I get standing in line for 2 days for a new drop at Supreme or spending $600 for a scarf from a 21 year old designer who will be the next Tom Ford. But a year's worth of house payments for a frame you'll ride 4x a month? No judgment! Just wondering how people rationalize sending their hard earned cash to a non-proven entity for a discretionary bike purchase. In other words, why did the first 50 guys and gals send their cash off to Sacha. Or what's your thought process in the post-Serotta era. Are people still rational or is it all about emotion and experience?

[blakcloud]

This is only a guess at my part, but I would bet it was about the relationship between the builder and the customer. That connection, that bond, is what seals the deal.

Even now, that is what drove me to buy my custom bike from an established builder. I have been to a few NAHBS and Philly Bike Expos and talked to builders. The person I chose to build my bike was the person I liked the best, who I thought was genuine and the one I wanted to give my money to. We seem to click on a level that I found comfortable. For me it was about the relationship.

[happycampyer]

Not sure what special demarcation Serotta’s closing has to do with this question. This has been a topic on this board for as long as I can remember, going back before I joined. I think NAHBS indirectly contributed to or helped validate the phenomenon with its new builder section, but my guess is the expanded use of the internet beginning in the 2000’s was when it became possible to hang out a virtual shingle and attract a wider audience than just the people in your town or local area.

There are still several larger shops where one can learn the craft before setting out on one’s own—Moots, Seven, IF, etc. Each of those companies has been the training ground for some of the best builders in the industry, alongside Kirk, Wages, Bedford and No. 22 (among others) from Serotta.

As far as why one would buy from a builder with little formal training? I agree with blakcloud that it’s hard to say. The one builder with little formal experience who really struck me with his designs was Ezra Caldwell (Fast Boy Cycles)—I wish I had bought one of his bikes before he passed away from cancer.

[R3awak3n]

/\ Ezra's bikes were amazing.


and althought I get where you are coming from (the OP), everyone has to start from somewhere and some guys are just good at this.

Look at bishop. Dude is young and for a while he did not have that many bikes under his belt but man but his bikes always have looked amazing.

However I do expect a little discount from a new builder (by new I mean new new not someone that is considered new compared to the dinosaur builders) but someone in his first year of building.

[Clancy]

Something cool versus something good.

Why?

A buddy just bought a klunker from a builder who's been in the industry for a few months. I don't understand the consumer psychology here. I get standing in line for 2 days for a new drop at Supreme or spending $600 for a scarf from a 21 year old designer who will be the next Tom Ford. But a year's worth of house payments for a frame you'll ride 4x a month? No judgment! Just wondering how people rationalize sending their hard earned cash to a non-proven entity for a discretionary bike purchase. In other words, why did the first 50 guys and gals send their cash off to Sacha. Or what's your thought process in the post-Serotta era. Are people still rational or is it all about emotion and experience?

Let’s say a house payment of $2,000 a month X 12 equals $24,000. Or let’s be on a tight budget and say $1,200 a month mortgage. That comes out to $14,400.

Yikes! That’s an expensive frameset!

[AngryScientist]

Why?

A buddy just bought a klunker from a builder who's been in the industry for a few months.


what exactly do you mean by klunker realistically? bicycle frames are brutally simple, mechanically speaking. unless it fails at a weld, or isnt aligned properly, etc - it's pretty hard to make a bad bike frame, no? curious what makes you say your pals bike is a "klunker".



a year's worth of house payments for a frame you'll ride 4x a month?

The price is a good point of discussion. I assume, either you have incredibly low "house payments" or you're just embellishing with this statement, but i do firmly believe that the new guys to the scene should cost less.

there are a handful of frame builders who have spotless reputations and have literally been building bikes for multiple decades. their price list reflects those years of experience and credibility.

one reason someone might select a newish builder is their price for a frame can be significantly cheaper, less than half, of the major established players.

local racing and participation in events is another reason someone might feel comfortable buying a frame from a new builder. if joe fbuild is supporting local cyclocross racers and they are beating the crap out of his frames weekly racing cross, i feel confident that he knows how to build a bike that can take some abuse and be OK.

those are two examples off the top of my hed, but i do believe it comes down to a relationship with the builder in most cases as mentioned above. as i opined, a bicycle frame is a super simple mechanical structure; if, for whatever various reasons, you establish some level of trust with the guy holding the torch, i dont think it's too hugh a leap of faith to think you'll get a decent bike.

[paredown]

Some of it--because you can...

If you have a solid income, and can swing it--why not? Think of yourself as a patron of the arts on a small scale!

[zambenini]

Something cool versus something good.

Why?

A buddy just bought a klunker from a builder who's been in the industry for a few months. I don't understand the consumer psychology here. I get standing in line for 2 days for a new drop at Supreme or spending $600 for a scarf from a 21 year old designer who will be the next Tom Ford. But a year's worth of house payments for a frame you'll ride 4x a month? No judgment! Just wondering how people rationalize sending their hard earned cash to a non-proven entity for a discretionary bike purchase. In other words, why did the first 50 guys and gals send their cash off to Sacha. Or what's your thought process in the post-Serotta era. Are people still rational or is it all about emotion and experience?

what i absolutely get is buying a frame from a new builder who seems poised to become a great craftsman/woman. what i absolutely do not get are the other things you mention, standing in line for a new drop or a designer article of clothing. i had to read the post seversl times to make sure it said what i thought it said.

also i dream of a world where my house payments for any given three months were what i have spent on a bike frame.

[vincenz]

What kind of frame costs a year of house payments?

I think people buying custom frames these days aren’t so much into performance as aesthetics or relationship with the builder.

[prototoast]

What kind of frame costs a year of house payments?

I think people buying custom frames these days aren’t so much into performance as aesthetics or relationship with the builder.

Maybe we should be asking about the house instead?

[pdonk]

This house cost less per year than the frame I bought around the the time I was living in it - my dekerf team sl.

This is the house that actually cost less than my speedvagen complete or the first new car I bought.

[bikinchris]

I used to work with guys who talked like that. Except, they both had carbon fiber bass boats with 400hp outboard motors, big screen GPS and fish finders and they used them maybe 10 times per year. I rode my bike every day.

[buddybikes]

1. Usually if a builder is starting out and has no reputation their prices are quite attractive - yes bit of a gamble but anything is

2. Established frame makers (i.e.: Firefly guys) had significant skills and known track record, their startup went right to top end quickly. (yes I got in pretty early #257 by time I got it)

[zambenini]

Maybe we should be asking about the house instead?Lol,yeah, OP must live in an area with affordable housing .... Would love that.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[unterhausen]

My mom's house was just outside a dividing line between affordable houses and incredibly cheap houses. I'm talking <$20k. Really didn't seem to be that bad of a neighborhood either, zero cop cars there ever. It occurred to me that I could own an entire block of houses.

[Red Tornado]

"Because I can".... was the reply when one of my buddies with lots of disposable income (DINK) was asked by another friend why he spent so much on custom-built bikes, so often. Not trying to generalize, but that may be one of the main factors for lots of folk. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[DuddyJ]

For those of us that would need $100,000+ for a housing down payment AND will be renting for the next 10 years, what are some good up and coming frame builders to send our money too?

[Mark McM]

Why buy a bike that costs as much as a house, when you can spend the same money for a bike that is a house?


https://www.swiss-miss.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/5_camperbike3-480x598.jpg

[cmg]

$14,400 for a custom bike? why? I've had so far 3 custom frames. Buy just the frame and fork and i'll get everything else done. ebay has lots of parts. it'll be lots cheaper, $3000-$4200 and lowers the risk and loss if it doesn't work out.

[cinco]

For those of us that would need $100,000+ for a housing down payment AND will be renting for the next 10 years, what are some good up and coming frame builders to send our money too?

Friend in Houston, Matt Schott of Schott Cycles. Been doing it for a while. Hot Tubes doing the painting.
https://www.schottcycles.com/

[David Tollefson]

As one who still considers himself a "new" builder, I find this a very interesting discussion. I see many posts here and elsewhere on many subjects basically saying one won't do business with anyone who doesn't have loads of positive history (eBay is an example). And I always wonder "where does that leave the new builder?" Do we have to wait until the old guard dies off to have a chance? (Hm... Maybe I need to branch out to contract killing... jk!)

Fortunately I'm not in a position where my livelihood depends on selling X framesets in a month.

[m4rk540]

what exactly do you mean by klunker realistically? bicycle frames are brutally simple, mechanically speaking. unless it fails at a weld, or isnt aligned properly, etc - it's pretty hard to make a bad bike frame, no? curious what makes you say your pals bike is a "klunker".



The price is a good point of discussion. I assume, either you have incredibly low "house payments" or you're just embellishing with this statement, but i do firmly believe that the new guys to the scene should cost less.

there are a handful of frame builders who have spotless reputations and have literally been building bikes for multiple decades. their price list reflects those years of experience and credibility.

one reason someone might select a newish builder is their price for a frame can be significantly cheaper, less than half, of the major established players.

local racing and participation in events is another reason someone might feel comfortable buying a frame from a new builder. if joe fbuild is supporting local cyclocross racers and they are beating the crap out of his frames weekly racing cross, i feel confident that he knows how to build a bike that can take some abuse and be OK.

those are two examples off the top of my hed, but i do believe it comes down to a relationship with the builder in most cases as mentioned above. as i opined, a bicycle frame is a super simple mechanical structure; if, for whatever various reasons, you establish some level of trust with the guy holding the torch, i dont think it's too hugh a leap of faith to think you'll get a decent bike.

Excluding the coasts and Texas, I was thinking that many parts of the country still have low housing costs. Say an $800 month mortgage.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Sioux-Falls-SD/pmf,pf_pt/91818839_zpid/7087_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/43.674328,-96.526223,43.420011,-96.965676_rect/10_zm/

As for klunker, I wasn't referring to the historical type but the bikes that Ultra Romance rides which get a ton of attention on the Radavist.

https://velo-orange.com/pages/piolet-build-list-klunker-with-27-5-wheels

My friend's bike was about 7 grand.

[MattTuck]

For good or bad, I see builders taking 3 approaches. Note that they are not mutually exclusive. But it is rare to see all 3.

1. Building quality bikes consistently, and developing a reputation for honest and consistent work. Extreme focus on the product itself.

2. Hit the social media game hard, build a hype around the brand, and bring in deposits that way. Extreme focus on the brand itself.

3. Price your product at a very attractive (I won't say "too good to be true....", but close to it) level. Extreme focus on getting customers.


Dave, I don't know much about you or your bikes, so take this only as a single data point. Mjolnir seems a little hard to pronounce. There is some research out there (that I may be misquoting) that suggests hard to pronounce names are not as trustworthy and/or memorable. It was cited in a book called "Thinking Fast and Slow", if you are interested.

On the broader point, about new builders... to each his own. The list of builders that I'd trust with my money is less than 10, and generated by years of reading this forum and listening to people's experiences with builders, seeing their products and knowing that they are good at.

[zambenini]

Excluding the coasts and Texas, I was thinking that many parts of the country still have low housing costs. Say an $800 month mortgage.



https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Sioux-Falls-SD/pmf,pf_pt/91818839_zpid/7087_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/43.674328,-96.526223,43.420011,-96.965676_rect/10_zm/



As for klunker, I wasn't referring to the historical type but the bikes that Ultra Romance rides which get a ton of attention on the Radavist.



https://velo-orange.com/pages/piolet-build-list-klunker-with-27-5-wheels



My friend's bike was about 7 grand.Whoa, OK $7G is a lot. https://youtu.be/YJt0E4MiO6E

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[jtbadge]

My handbuilt custom frame cost less than one month's rent?

[buddybikes]

Many ways to get started as builder, one is across the hall in the Friday Night Lights which only builders can submit pictures. Another, advertise here, sure Paceline isn't too much.

Looked at your website, had to click a bit to see any pictures, not good, show your wears....

[prototoast]

As one who still considers himself a "new" builder, I find this a very interesting discussion. I see many posts here and elsewhere on many subjects basically saying one won't do business with anyone who doesn't have loads of positive history (eBay is an example). And I always wonder "where does that leave the new builder?" Do we have to wait until the old guard dies off to have a chance? (Hm... Maybe I need to branch out to contract killing... jk!)

Fortunately I'm not in a position where my livelihood depends on selling X framesets in a month.

I think this is an important point. Every builder had to start somewhere. Among the "best regarded" builders out there today, there seems to be a pretty good mix of those who apprenticed in an established operation for a long time, those who were effectively self-taught.

I've bought from a "new builder" at NAHBS. I've also built a handful of frames myself. I think it's important to keep the pipeline flowing, and I would trust many new builders to build a great-fitting, great-performing bike.

In my mind, the biggest risk to a new builder is financial. The "business" side of a new business can be tough, and if a builder is tight on cash, it may compromise the product. Thus, the buyer can get a little extra piece of mind if the builder is either well-capitalized or has an alternative source of income.

[m4rk540]

Not sure what special demarcation Serotta’s closing has to do with this question.

Serotta was kind of the gold standard. And its gravitational pull brought many into the bespoke orbit. Without Serotta and this forum, most of the people I know on custom bikes would be riding Giants. But that was pre-Instagram and pre-Radavist.

[colker]

Serotta was kind of the gold standard. And it's gravitational pull brought many into the bespoke orbit. Without Serotta and this forum, most of the people I know on custom bikes would be riding Giants. But that was pre-Instagram and pre-Radavist.

Is The Radavist that popular?

[Bentley]

As one who still considers himself a "new" builder, I find this a very interesting discussion. I see many posts here and elsewhere on many subjects basically saying one won't do business with anyone who doesn't have loads of positive history (eBay is an example). And I always wonder "where does that leave the new builder?" Do we have to wait until the old guard dies off to have a chance? (Hm... Maybe I need to branch out to contract killing... jk!)

Fortunately I'm not in a position where my livelihood depends on selling X framesets in a month.

I hope this thread is not discouraging. My view, it’s about workmanship and the person to person relationship. I’ve seen your bikes and they are very cool.

Spending 14K on a custom seems like a stretch but who really knows. If you got it and you want the bike then more power to you.

Selling a bike for 14K does in no way imply that it’s worth it.

Best

Ray

[buddybikes]

>>Serotta was kind of the gold standard. And its gravitational pull brought many into the bespoke orbit. Without Serotta and this forum, most of the people I know on custom bikes would be riding Giants. But that was pre-Instagram and pre-Radavist.


Things go much farther back, Bruce Gordon, Eisenstruat (sp), Weigle, Sach's of course, probably back in the 70's and 80's was more regionalized, then the "children" started (in MA Chris Chance the daddy) and IF, Seven, Firefly, etc.

[thegunner]

my takeaway here is - i should be buying houses for each of my new framesets.

this would solve my NYC apartment + bike problem.

[m4rk540]

Is The Radavist that popular?

I think he's a major force in the ecosystem of cool

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Durianrider 300 Million Views on youtube 3679 Instagram Followers
https://www.instagram.com/durianriders/

ns/baw (not scientific/bored at work)

[David Tollefson]

Looked at your website, had to click a bit to see any pictures, not good, show your wears....

Thanks for that feedback. I'll add more to the site.

[happycampyer]

Excluding the coasts and Texas, I was thinking that many parts of the country still have low housing costs. Say an $800 month mortgage.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Sioux-Falls-SD/pmf,pf_pt/91818839_zpid/7087_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/43.674328,-96.526223,43.420011,-96.965676_rect/10_zm/

As for klunker, I wasn't referring to the historical type but the bikes that Ultra Romance rides which get a ton of attention on the Radavist.

https://velo-orange.com/pages/piolet-build-list-klunker-with-27-5-wheels

My friend's bike was about 7 grand.$7K for the frame, or the whole bike? The only builders I’m aware of charging $7K+ for a frame only are all well established—Vanilla, Parlee, Baum, Passoni, etc. If it’s for the whole bike, parts are parts, and could be hung on a stock frame, custom frame from an established builder, new builder, etc. The question is, how much of the $7K was for the frame, and how much for the parts? What material was the frame? Was the fork made by the builder, or aftermarket? The cost of the frame may have been quite reasonable given the level of experience of the builder.

[Ronsonic]

What kind of frame costs a year of house payments?


You should see my house payments. Lot of guys riding stuff costing more than my mortgage. The other side of that coin are the payments for lumber and professional help.

[m4rk540]

$7K for the frame, or the whole bike? The only builders I’m aware of charging $7K+ for a frame only are all well established—Vanilla, Parlee, Baum, Passoni, etc. If it’s for the whole bike, parts are parts, and could be hung on a stock frame, custom frame from an established builder, new builder, etc. The question is, how much of the $7K was for the frame, and how much for the parts? What material was the frame? Was the fork made by the builder, or aftermarket? The cost of the frame may have been quite reasonable given the level of experience of the builder.

Beach cruiser type frame was only 3K.

[54ny77]

You're asking are people rational about their bike stuff, on a website devoted to bikes, which originally was started by a company whose bikes occasionally hit low 5 figures, and where people get into vein-popping online pissing matches about gravel bikes, bike parts, bike clothing, bike racers and bike whatever.

:D

[93KgBike]

Red Hook Crit has basically admitted they don't generate enough cash flow to cover their costs, and they are right behind the Radavist on instagram.

Are these numbers translatable into cash? How much income does each generate from the platforms listed?

I think he's a major force in the ecosystem of cool

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Ultra Romance 95.6K Instagram Followers
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Durianrider 300 Million Views on youtube 3679 Instagram Followers
https://www.instagram.com/durianriders/

ns/baw (not scientific/bored at work)

[jtakeda]

Red Hook Crit has basically admitted they don't generate enough cash flow to cover their costs, and they are right behind the Radavist on instagram.

Are these numbers translatable into cash? How much income does each generate from the platforms listed?

Im not sure income is relevant. If anyone on that list comes out and says XX Builders frames are trash many thousands of people will see that and disseminate that information.

On the flip if a small builder catches one of these peoples eye then all of the sudden theyre in the spotlight.

[unterhausen]

also on that list, ultraromance is, wait for it, a Riv dealer.

Someone in a long email thread was citing his number of followers as an indicator of influence, and it took me a couple of weeks of discussion for me to realize I'm one of the 100k ultraromantic followers. So I don't take that number as meaning he has much influence.

[efuentes]

I think he's a major force in the ecosystem of cool

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ns/baw (not scientific/bored at work)


:eek: no Puck Moonen

puckmoonen 316K Instagram Followers
https://www.instagram.com/puckmoonen/

[happycampyer]

You're asking are people rational about their bike stuff, on a website devoted to bikes, which originally was started by a company whose bikes occasionally hit low 5 figures, and where people get into vein-popping online pissing matches about gravel bikes, bike parts, bike clothing, bike racers and bike whatever.

:DIf I'm not mistaken, this forum was originally a subforum on a bigger cycling forum (or phorum) run by Kahuna, with subforums for various builders. The two subforums that generated the most traffic were Calfee and Serottta. After a few years, Serotta took over its subforum and spun it off. There is some interesting history/backstory here:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=256

[Peter B]

For those of us that would need $100,000+ for a housing down payment AND will be renting for the next 10 years, what are some good up and coming frame builders to send our money too?

No need for up and coming.

Mike DeSalvo
Steve Rex
ROLAND DELLA SANTA

With just those 3 you're on the cusp of 100 years cumulative experience. And you could own all 3 for about 3-4 month's house payments, assuming $2k/mo.

[m4rk540]

:eek: no Puck Moonen

puckmoonen 316K Instagram Followers
https://www.instagram.com/puckmoonen/

She should have 3.16M followers.

[54ny77]

Is that a big kahuna burger? Now that's a tasty burger!

If I'm not mistaken, this forum was originally a subforum on a bigger cycling forum (or phorum) run by Kahuna, with subforums for various builders. The two subforums that generated the most traffic were Calfee and Serottta. After a few years, Serotta took over its subforum and spun it off. There is some interesting history/backstory here:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=256

[Mzilliox]

One perspective. We are humans. Sometimes humans connect with other humans. some humans have plenty of cash so as not to worry about a 2k bike purchase.

I looked for a while for a builder for my wifes bike. I asked new guys and old guys. One person seemed to really "get" the project. That person is a new builder. I took a chance. It turned out better than expected. Life is full of moments, mistakes and triumphs. If you never take risks, your rewards are less.

Embrace the human experience. We are not machines

[e-RICHIE]

There is some interesting history/backstory here:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=256

Ya great stuff in the older archives.

[zambenini]

One perspective. We are humans. Sometimes humans connect with other humans. some humans have plenty of cash so as not to worry about a 2k bike purchase.



I looked for a while for a builder for my wifes bike. I asked new guys and old guys. One person seemed to really "get" the project. That person is a new builder. I took a chance. It turned out better than expected. Life is full of moments, mistakes and triumphs. If you never take risks, your rewards are less.



Embrace the human experience. We are not machinesA great point. I would add it doesn't only come down to what one can afford but also what one values and makes a priority. In other words people can afford a lot of different things (creditors will generally give you an inflated figure) but don't necessarily prioritize them. Cars are a good example for me. I don't value cars even if I can get approved for a loan on a 2019 Whatever. For me, $3k car, $5k bike. Add those two up and a lot of people spend more than 8k on their cars. (My current car, a sick Ford Econoline was closer to 5, in the interest of full disclosure, but yeah, it's 15 years old and totally B.A.). Computers too. I have gotten away with spending 250 on a Chromebook and 600 on a tablet with keyboard as a laptop replacement - over the past 7.5 years... when you figure in phones I am just over a grand in that same time period. I don't value tech. Some people do. I sure wish I had bought stock with what I spent on gadgets in the ten years before that!!! Compromises.

This is a joke and not a dis to the OP, I swear, but sometimes I wonder if threads like this are planted to get our wheels spinning and remind us that bikes belong somewhere in the value calculus we all do when deciding what to do with our money, time, and life. Bikes are very nice. Very nice indeed. [emoji41]

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[d_douglas]

This is a long thread and I haven't read the entire thing, but its an interesting subject. I have recently shelved the dream of an $8k bike in favour of more renovations on my first house. That was painful ;) but I know its the right thing to do and while my wife didn't say I couldn't buy the bike, I know her thoughts on it !!

Anyways, I was researching builders and it dawned on me the range of cost for framesets is not necessarily directly related to the quality of workmanship. There are people like Dave Kirk, Richard Sachs and Nick Crumpton who are the 'grandmasters' of framebuilding (in my opinion) and they charge what they charge not only because of their experience but also to support their financial goals - its a fact of life. I assume that they have a baseline of what they want to earn and it correlates to cost of living amongst many other things.

One of the builders on my shortlist was Chris Dekerf in Vancouver - he is also extremely experienced and skilled and he charges a lot for his frames, but the fact is that he lives in Vancouver - an incredibly expensive city. It is his home and I assume that he owns a house there, so he needs to pay his mortgage and this is how he does it. When I was speaking with him about how many hours go into building a frameset, he said that he tries not to track this, as he is now less interested in pumping out volume and more interested in building things that please him and his clients as well as challenge his skillset, which I loved.

As for 'emerging' framebuilders, I have no issue with people charging what they charge. I think that it is a self fulfilling prophecy that if a builder sells enough frames that people are impressed with, then their cost and reputation is deserved; inversely, if they sell enough frames that people are disappointed with, this will also impact their reputation and livelihood.

In the end, they all need to make a living and I hope that these esteemed folks charge what they need to charge to both keep the lights on, but also to set themselves up for a lifestyle that they want to lead, whatever that might be. I make a modest salary and live in an expensive city - if I want to live in a nicer house or drive a nicer car, I need to change jobs or ask my boss for a raise, but I don't work in an entrepreneurial capacity like they do, so they need to adjust pricing to accommodate their financial goals.

I might be totally offbase on this one (and await criticism and correction:)!!), but as a person who spends his days emailing and sitting in meetings, I admire and envy the skills that framebuilders have to actually MAKE things that people love to use.

Now, I need to win $10k in a lottery and resurrect the bike dream that has not vapourized :banana:

[d_douglas]

PS I am a person with few luxuries in my life. I wear basic clothes, eat normal food, drive a regular car, etc. My sole extravagance is bikes.

That said, most of my money goes into my family life, travel, etc, which is perfectly fine for me.

[buddybikes]

Or make a lot of money (fixing teeth, investing peoples money, opening up knees, taking on legal cases, selling a startup) and buy whatever you want...

[zambenini]

But it is possible to spend money on bad things. People do it all the time. Bikes are good.

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[pdonk]

... I have recently shelved the dream of an $8k bike in favour of more renovations on my first house. That was painful ;) but I know its the right thing to do and while my wife didn't say I couldn't buy the bike, I know her thoughts on it !! …..



Funny thing is that we agreed with one another to shelve a house renovation and that made the decision to buy my new bike much easier.

As for a dekerf, love mine even after 23 years, good money spent, same with my brodie after 30, and my moots after 7. Hopefully my SV is the same.

[colker]

Im not sure income is relevant. If anyone on that list comes out and says XX Builders frames are trash many thousands of people will see that and disseminate that information.

On the flip if a small builder catches one of these peoples eye then all of the sudden theyre in the spotlight.

Isn´t Instagram a bit superficial to make you buy a custom frame? A 1x2in picture and a list of likes?

[m4rk540]

This is a joke and not a dis to the OP, I swear, but sometimes I wonder if threads like this are planted to get our wheels spinning and remind us that bikes belong somewhere in the value calculus we all do when deciding what to do with our money, time, and life. Bikes are very nice. Very nice indeed. [emoji41]

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Or make a lot of money (fixing teeth, investing peoples money, opening up knees, taking on legal cases, selling a startup) and buy whatever you want...

Again, no judgment. The $6 burger is no longer the $6 burger. I just saw Lamborghini Aventador on my lunch ride and didn't think, "why did he spend his hard earned money on that?" I guess I'm just wondering if there are any other goods and services where people are more "exuberant." A hot new restaurant doesn't need any track record...

Are there watchmakers who have only been in the game for 6 months?

[Charles M]

I think this thread originates on the bad assumption that people spent top dollar on unknown builders?

Damn near everyone that gets into building starts at the bottom and builds a reputation that allows the $ to follow.

[d_douglas]

I think this thread originates on the bad assumption that people spent top dollar on unknown builders?

Damn near everyone that gets into building starts at the bottom and builds a reputation that allows the $ to follow.

I think the time to getting to the top dollar rates has compressed vs the olde days of toiling for decades, as Kirk, Sachs, Dekerf, and many others have done.

[jtakeda]

Isn´t Instagram a bit superficial to make you buy a custom frame? A 1x2in picture and a list of likes?

Totally superficial. But social media in general is the new way to completely control how the public perceives your image/brand etc. and it’s really easy to hide your mistakes in a 1x2 picture.

You’d be surprised what kind of idiotic purchase people make off of social media.

I’m going to use this as a very general example but the Contax T2 is a great camera. It always has been. I’ve had a couple—and sold them and recognize the quality. A few years back one of the Jenner’s (I’m not sure which one) started carrying one around and the price sky rocketed.

I just sold my friends T2 data back for $1000. I completely attribute this to an “influencer” signaling that this product was “cool”

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison but the connection I’m trying to make is that these social media presences do have an effect on people’s perception.

[colker]

Totally superficial. But social media in general is the new way to completely control how the public perceives your image/brand etc. and it’s really easy to hide your mistakes in a 1x2 picture.

You’d be surprised what kind of idiotic purchase people make off of social media.

I’m going to use this as a very general example but the Contax T2 is a great camera. It always has been. I’ve had a couple—and sold them and recognize the quality. A few years back one of the Jenner’s (I’m not sure which one) started carrying one around and the price sky rocketed.

I just sold my friends T2 data back for $1000. I completely attribute this to an “influencer” signaling that this product was “cool”

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison but the connection I’m trying to make is that these social media presences do have an effect on people’s perception.

Yeah.. i was following the film rennaissance till i got sick of looking at Leica fashion on instagram. The irony being everyone wants a Leica to have "the real thing" but doing it because it´s big on line.

[XXtwindad]

Totally superficial. But social media in general is the new way to completely control how the public perceives your image/brand etc. and it’s really easy to hide your mistakes in a 1x2 picture.

You’d be surprised what kind of idiotic purchase people make off of social media.

I’m going to use this as a very general example but the Contax T2 is a great camera. It always has been. I’ve had a couple—and sold them and recognize the quality. A few years back one of the Jenner’s (I’m not sure which one) started carrying one around and the price sky rocketed.

I just sold my friends T2 data back for $1000. I completely attribute this to an “influencer” signaling that this product was “cool”

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison but the connection I’m trying to make is that these social media presences do have an effect on people’s perception.

This is an excellent point. I've always been smitten with Speedvagen and Breadwinner. They were (are) the personification of "cool" to me. I have no first-hand experience with either of the frames. But their branding and social media presence is nonpareil. The messaging is highly aspirational (the Speedvagen is meant to be raced hard and covered in 'sweat, snot, and blood')

I'm sure they're great bikes, and I have no quibbles with the builders, but in the end, for my last "dream" bike, I'm going with a builder who built another frame I already own, and is a hell of a nice guy. He's really down to earth, and is also a family man, which matters to me now that I have kids.

[pdmtong]

while it seems reasonable that a new builder might charge "less" than an established builder for a frame, at what point and under what criteria does it then become ok for said builder to now claim "expertise" and charge what the "big boys" charge?

[d_douglas]

while it seems reasonable that a new builder might charge "less" than an established builder for a frame, at what point and under what criteria does it then become ok for said builder to now claim "expertise" and charge what the "big boys" charge?

Yes, when do people like Zanconato, Kris Henry, and the many many others out there get to say, " OK, now I am an 'experienced' builder - I want to charge $4500 for a frameset'?

Its tough to make that leap and go from $3300 to $4500 and just say that you are now a 'pro' (which I believe they both are and they were both on my shortlist for that shelved dream bike).

[GParkes]

OK, I'm a frame whore. I won't go in to details, but I've looked at more builders over the years than I can justify - mostly for design and construction techniques. If anyone thinks they want a custom frame at a reasonable price and has to settle for a "new" builder or one with limited experience, that person is wrong.

Curtlo (Doug Curtiss) - 40 years of experience
Andy Gilmour - 45 years of experience, steel/Ti/Alu (I have one of his frames)

If you want to spend in excess of $3-4K for a highly regarded/known builder, do it (I have, thank you DK). But the aforementioned builders will leave you very satisfied, with some $$ in your wallet for other things.

G

[prototoast]

while it seems reasonable that a new builder might charge "less" than an established builder for a frame, at what point and under what criteria does it then become ok for said builder to now claim "expertise" and charge what the "big boys" charge?

You price to meet your demand. If you've got more buyers than you've got time to build for, you raise your prices. You don't need to claim expertise. You can have built 5 frames or 500.

[PaMtbRider]

Yes, when do people like Zanconato, Kris Henry, and the many many others out there get to say, " OK, now I am an 'experienced' builder - I want to charge $4500 for a frameset'?

Its tough to make that leap and go from $3300 to $4500 and just say that you are now a 'pro' (which I believe they both are and they were both on my shortlist for that shelved dream bike).

Wait, STOP! What are you saying. It's ok if WE know Kris Henry and Mike Zanconato are pros and are under charging but you're not supposed to tell them. At least not until Mike is done with my bike.:banana:

[zambenini]

OK, I'm a frame whore. I won't go in to details, but I've looked at more builders over the years than I can justify - mostly for design and construction techniques. If anyone thinks they want a custom frame at a reasonable price and has to settle for a "new" builder or one with limited experience, that person is wrong.



Curtlo (Doug Curtiss) - 40 years of experience

Andy Gilmour - 45 years of experience, steel/Ti/Alu (I have one of his frames)



If you want to spend in excess of $3-4K for a highly regarded/known builder, do it (I have, thank you DK). But the aforementioned builders will leave you very satisfied, with some $$ in your wallet for other things.



GThat's dead on. Paul Sadoff, too. The market is also crowded at 3K while there is killer stuff around 2k. Sure builders can make that price jump but then suddenly every bike has to have a curved top tube, deluxe fade paint job, and about 9 extra hours worth of social media interaction attached to it. (I like curved top tubes no shade there). But It's probably quite a game to charge 3300 bucks for a frame. not saying the frame isn't worth it. Just that it might not be worth the builder's trouble to go up market. Like was pointed out across the hall re Red Hook, sometimes success is a headache for a brand.

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[colker]

Looks to me like a bubble made of a lot of non sense. There i said it.

[John H.]

Facebook, Instagram and Social Media have been the tide that raises all ships.

Before Social Media you could get a Lobster, Zanc, Steve Rex, Primus Mootry and many other fine handmade custom frames for 1k or less.

And all of this meant a new builder pretty much had to give his frames away for cost of tubes and paint.

[colker]

Facebook, Instagram and Social Media have been the tide that raises all ships.

Before Social Media you could get a Lobster, Zanc, Steve Rex, Primus Mootry and many other fine handmade custom frames for 1k or less.

I have been slowly unplugging from social media. Ime there is nothing there except wrong after wrong.
It is svcking all good out of life. It is destroying politics and democracy in every country.
Now it´s creating bubbles on cycling, photography etcetera.

[unterhausen]

And all of this meant a new builder pretty much had to give his frames away for cost of tubes and paint.
I always figured someone that isn't charging $5000 for a frame with wet paint is just barely charging the margins it takes for a sustainable business. As someone pointed out above, there are established builders still charging less than $2k for a frame/fork. My guess is they can do that because they married into health insurance. But a lot of builders have a real job. So they are building in their spare time as a second job. I like to build frames, but I like to ride more.

[prototoast]

Looks to me like a bubble made of a lot of non sense. There i said it.

I don't think it's a bubble. Nobody is buying custom with an expectation their bike will increase in value in the future, and the price of most custom frames is at or below that of similar high end mass-produced frames. For every boutique frame I see out on my rides, I see countless S-Works Tarmacs or Trek Madones that are just as expensive as a Kirk or Crumpton.

Economic conditions are good, so certainly people are spending more freely than they were 10 years ago, and likely bikes will suffer in the next economic downturn, but there's no reason to think there is anything inherently wrong with the bike market right now.

[unterhausen]

the bubble popped. Although I hear that framebuilding classes are really popular right now, so a batch of new people are showing up to under-charge for their work. It's like a pyramid scheme in that it looks a lot better from the outside.

[Clean39T]

Facebook, Instagram and Social Media have been the tide that raises all ships.

Before Social Media you could get a Lobster, Zanc, Steve Rex, Primus Mootry and many other fine handmade custom frames for 1k or less.

And all of this meant a new builder pretty much had to give his frames away for cost of tubes and paint.

Before social media was a long time ago...

Costs for everything have gone up. It is what it is.

If you like custom bikes and have the means, get one. It's only money. Life is short. Vote w your checkbook. Yafda yaffa.

[d_douglas]

Before social media was a long time ago...

Costs for everything have gone up. It is what it is.

If you like custom bikes and have the means, get one. It's only money. Life is short. Vote w your checkbook. Yafda yaffa.

Yes, those days are long past.:.

[Doug Fattic]

I’ve been teaching framebuilding classes for over 40 years so this discussion is interesting to me. I try to keep track of my students to see if their dreams have turned into reality. While some just take the class to make something custom instead of buying it, most say they will be keeping their day job but maybe if things go right it can become a business. It seldom does and I’ll explain why.

A decent percentage of students just don’t have the natural talent to be good just like not everyone is musical or athletic. Another good size chunk can’t afford the tooling and equipment necessary to make frames efficiently. Including in that group is finding a place to build which stumps quite a few. And some just don’t like solitary work that requires time management. It is a challenge to make a good frame fast enough to be profitable. I expect all my students to make a professional quality frame in class. Most can do this because they take 3 or more times longer to make their frame then a professional. Reducing that time isn’t something everyone can do. Of course some can’t without my help. It isn’t easy to fill an order book that requires marketing and bedside manner skills too.

Now if someone passes all those tests a common barrier still is the problem of limited income working for oneself and not being able to afford health insurance. Most of my students that have started selling frames still do other kind of jobs that bring in money. And probably a wife that works.

[m4rk540]

Doug, have you had students who hit the ground running with the benefit of the right friends and right look? In other words, do you get students who enroll with a business plan and marketing strategy already worked out.

[pdmtong]

I’ve been teaching framebuilding classes for over 40 years so this discussion is interesting to me. I try to keep track of my students to see if their dreams have turned into reality. While some just take the class to make something custom instead of buying it, most say they will be keeping their day job but maybe if things go right it can become a business. It seldom does and I’ll explain why.



A decent percentage of students just don’t have the natural talent to be good just like not everyone is musical or athletic. Another good size chunk can’t afford the tooling and equipment necessary to make frames efficiently. Including in that group is finding a place to build which stumps quite a few. And some just don’t like solitary work that requires time management. It is a challenge to make a good frame fast enough to be profitable. I expect all my students to make a professional quality frame in class. Most can do this because they take 3 or more times longer to make their frame then a professional. Reducing that time isn’t something everyone can do. Of course some can’t without my help. It isn’t easy to fill an order book that requires marketing and bedside manner skills too.



Now if someone passes all those tests a common barrier still is the problem of limited income working for oneself and not being able to afford health insurance. Most of my students that have started selling frames still do other kind of jobs that bring in money. And probably a wife that works.



Thank you for making the time ti write this

[Doug Fattic]

Doug, have you had students who hit the ground running with the benefit of the right friends and right look? In other words, do you get students who enroll with a business plan and marketing strategy already worked out.Almost all of my students have either an art or engineering background. Art students like to carve blank lugs and engineering students are likely to make a randonneuring frame. I can only think of one that had a business background. He discovered that it took him too long to make a frame to the standard he thought acceptable and still make a profit. There are several that started on 2nd base with decent family financial backing to start some kind of business of their choice. Those are the ones that have been most successful. I get quite a few foreign students who have different financial expectations.

I’m also likely to get the most serious student. I don’t go out of my way to promote myself so the ones most likely to attend my class do the most research on where to learn how to build frames. I’m one of those that went to Europe in the 70’s to learn and have degrees in teaching education. My classes run longer with fewer students. And we do this project to make bicycles for pastors in Ukraine where they go for 2 or 3 months making transportation frames in a shop on a college campus (so they can live in a dorm and eat in the cafeteria) to refine their brazing skills.

Almost none of my students lately plan on making frames full time. It isn’t uncommon for some near retirement to figure this is a way they can keep busy after their regular job is done. One guy was given my class as a retirement gift from his children. He really didn’t want to take the class but his wife said he had no choice because their kids had studied carefully their gift options and he was not going to disappoint them. We actually had a lot of fun in class. I told him not to worry I would do the parts that were difficult or that he didn’t want to do. He discovered that a frame made to his requirements rode a lot better than all his other bicycles. His classmate was Nolan that was a pilot that got cancer so he couldn’t fly anymore. During his recovery he found bicycles as part of the solution. Unfortunately his cancer returned after class and he lost that battle. I was saddened thinking about him yesterday as I was working on a twin plate fork. Nolan had helped me figure out tooling to keep the plates square when they were brazed together.

I might add it isn’t so easy to build a good frame. Maybe a third have already taken a framebuilding class somewhere else and knew that didn’t know enough to make more. I'm always doing little corrections even after they have read what to do, seen a demonstration and have practiced before the doing the real thing.

[GParkes]

Something cool versus something good.

Why?

A buddy just bought a klunker from a builder who's been in the industry for a few months. I don't understand the consumer psychology here. I get standing in line for 2 days for a new drop at Supreme or spending $600 for a scarf from a 21 year old designer who will be the next Tom Ford. But a year's worth of house payments for a frame you'll ride 4x a month? No judgment! Just wondering how people rationalize sending their hard earned cash to a non-proven entity for a discretionary bike purchase. In other words, why did the first 50 guys and gals send their cash off to Sacha. Or what's your thought process in the post-Serotta era. Are people still rational or is it all about emotion and experience?


Actually stumbled on this today. A bit of a coincidence after just referring to Curtlo. Take a peek, evidence that high quality and high cost aren't always directly correlated.

https://www.facebook.com/curtlocycles/photos/pcb.1077062099132965/1077061472466361/?type=3&theater

[Burnette]

Actually stumbled on this today. A bit of a coincidence after just referring to Curtlo. Take a peek, evidence that high quality and high cost aren't always directly correlated.

https://www.facebook.com/curtlocycles/photos/pcb.1077062099132965/1077061472466361/?type=3&theater

And Curtli Cycles had been doing it for years too. I thought I was ahead of the curve by riding disc brakes on the road in 2006, a guy had Curtlo build him one that same year. And yes, for a decent price too!

Here, from 2006:
I went with disc brakes because I love the stopping power of the Avids. I have them on my MTB and with my weight (260's currently) I want to be able to stop, rain or shine. With normal road brakes I've had some stopping power issues, especially in the rain.


Total cost: $2077.00 (consider it's custom steel with Ultegra components that's a very, very good deal)
Total wait: 4 months (partly due to tube shipping delay.

He was very receptive to my ideas and worked with me on what I wanted. He will basically build the bike bike you want, if he thinks things are a little out of whack he will discuss them with you and work with you to come up with the best solution."

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/my-new-curtlo-63453.html

[GParkes]

And Curtli Cycles had been doing it for years too. I thought I was ahead of the curve by riding disc brakes on the road in 2006, a guy had Curtlo build him one that same year. And yes, for a decent price too!

Here, from 2006:
I went with disc brakes because I love the stopping power of the Avids. I have them on my MTB and with my weight (260's currently) I want to be able to stop, rain or shine. With normal road brakes I've had some stopping power issues, especially in the rain.


Total cost: $2077.00 (consider it's custom steel with Ultegra components that's a very, very good deal)
Total wait: 4 months (partly due to tube shipping delay.

He was very receptive to my ideas and worked with me on what I wanted. He will basically build the bike bike you want, if he thinks things are a little out of whack he will discuss them with you and work with you to come up with the best solution."

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/my-new-curtlo-63453.html

Good choice on your constructeur Wayne....

[Burnette]

Good choice on your constructeur Wayne....

That wasn't mine, my bike was/is a Redline Conquest Disc cyclocross bike that was on sale for about nine hundred dollars.. The guy in that thread got a nice custom or two grand!

[prototoast]

Doug, have you had students who hit the ground running with the benefit of the right friends and right look? In other words, do you get students who enroll with a business plan and marketing strategy already worked out.

I developed a business plan and marketing strategy before I took a framebuilding class (not Doug's)--that's how I knew not to go into business selling frames.

[unterhausen]

I developed a business plan and marketing strategy before I took a framebuilding class (not Doug's)--that's how I knew not to go into business selling frames.

You're smarter than me, I wasted about $4000 before I realized I didn't control enough of the process to feel confident about liability. I wasn't going to put my wife through the possibility of losing her assets for the chance of having a sub-minimum wage job with absolutely no security. If I had to compete with Curtlo, with those ridiculous prices, I wouldn't be making enough to be worth it anyway. Better financially to just work as a walmart greeter and build for fun. There were plenty of people 10 years ago signing up to sell a lugged frame/fork for $1200. Let's say you sell 10 frames a year, $250 of that goes to insurance. Fixed costs for parts easily approach $500, powder coat isn't free. It's pretty easy to get to a point where your hourly wage is less than a dollar.

[AngryScientist]

You're smarter than me, I wasted about $4000 before I realized I didn't control enough of the process to feel confident about liability. I wasn't going to put my wife through the possibility of losing her assets for the chance of having a sub-minimum wage job with absolutely no security. If I had to compete with Curtlo, with those ridiculous prices, I wouldn't be making enough to be worth it anyway. Better financially to just work as a walmart greeter and build for fun. There were plenty of people 10 years ago signing up to sell a lugged frame/fork for $1200. Let's say you sell 10 frames a year, $250 of that goes to insurance. Fixed costs for parts easily approach $500, powder coat isn't free. It's pretty easy to get to a point where your hourly wage is less than a dollar.

10 frames/year?

you're talking about hobby building i assume, not full time?

less than a frame a month would be a tragically low number for someone trying to earn a living selling bicycles, no?

[PaMtbRider]

10 frames/year?

you're talking about hobby building i assume, not full time?

less than a frame a month would be a tragically low number for someone trying to earn a living selling bicycles, no?

Which is a point I've heard experienced builders make several times. Many new builders want to concentrate on how efficiently they are going to be making frames and managing time. Until they have orders for said frames, it doesn't matter how efficient they are.

[weisan]

Dave Kirk podcast

[AngryScientist]

Which is a point I've heard experienced builders make several times. Many new builders want to concentrate on how efficiently they are going to be making frames and managing time. Until they have orders for said frames, it doesn't matter how efficient they are.

haha, excellent point!

[Doug Fattic]

Most professional builders I know do not build full time. They do other work to make money and their family financial plan includes a wife that has a job with benefits. In addition their living and shop space benefit from some unusual arraignment. For example among my students are those that have a bike shop, one is an editor of an industrial magazine, another is a graphic designer. Among my colleagues that started 30 or more years ago, one lives with his parents and makes some kind of exercise equipment for a fitness chain, another waited until after they retired to go full time.

Two of my favorite questions to ask other frame builders are how long does it take you to build a frame and how many frames do you make a year? I'm mostly sworn to secrecy so I could get an honest answer but the truth is their numbers are pretty modest for many builders including some well known ones.

[zlin]

Isn´t Instagram a bit superficial to make you buy a custom frame? A 1x2in picture and a list of likes?

True, but FB makes a lot of money selling that dream in ad revenue.

[zlin]

Not to debate (for me at least) but if we have any HS Econ teachers in the bunch, their students could solve this in their lesson of supply and demand... as I think a lot of people are getting into cycling and want to buy a bike outside of a 'big brand'

I would be curious what youth think of what's being called influencers, micro-influencers (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/11/business/media/nanoinfluencers-instagram-influencers.html), and an actual store. Or what they even think describes someone as established.

[unterhausen]

10 frames/year?

you're talking about hobby building i assume, not full time?

less than a frame a month would be a tragically low number for someone trying to earn a living selling bicycles, no?

of course, but let's be realistic about how many frames a builder is going to sell at the beginning. And I don't know how many builders are really putting out more than that. People don't really advertise their day job on instagram, do they?

I think the year I had insurance ($2000) I could sell $20k worth of stuff, but I never expected to sell that much that year. So that was 10% off the top. I don't know what it costs to increase that number, probably not 10% I feel like a lot of the people that start selling frames are not insured.

Outside of production/semi production shops, I really don't think there are many independent builders that are full time. I figure it's less than 10, but it's really hard to tell and it's a bit rude to ask.

There is more to my story than this, but I know for a fact I can build far more frames than I can sell. With not much more investment, I could probably build 2 a week and then my house would be even more full of frames than it already is.

The other thing that happened when I tried to start up was that I was temporarily blind in my right eye for a few months. That will really slow you down. Probably for the better in the end.

[PaMtbRider]

...
Outside of production/semi production shops, I really don't think there are many independent builders that are full time. I figure it's less than 10, but it's really hard to tell and it's a bit rude to ask.

...

I don't have the data to back it up but I would guess it is at least double that amount if not more.